| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 05:08:38
A discussion in another thread prompted me to start this one. The phrase "feel of the Realms" is used a lot around here. I use it, and I have seen others do so as well. But the phrase may something different to someone else, and is perhaps a loaded phrase. So I pose the question: what is the feel of the Realms? And I don't mean old vs new editions.It prpertains more to the novels than anything. What does it take to make a novel "feel like the Realms" to you? For me, it's including bits of lore/facts throughout the book, be it politics, deities, geography, local history, the culture of a race, etc. If an author is going to write about a race (particularly demihuman ones), I feel they should really have a grasp on that race. How they think, feel, the deities they worship, the history of the place they live, etc. If an author doesn't really have a "feel" for a race or culture, it's going to show.
I don't like it when facts clash, either, but I realize that can happen in a shared world when there is so much going on. So, what does the "feel of the Realms" mean? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Seravin |
Posted - 12 Sep 2014 : 16:05:44
What everyone else has said! To me, if I read a novel and it makes me want to run to the sourcebook and look up more background on the area/town/dungeon where the book is set then I am a happy camper. That was one of the dissapointments in the timejump for me, that inter-connectivity between the novels and the older source material was largely wiped out and it didn't "feel" like the Realms because of the clean slate. I think every author who writes in the Realms should have to read and re-read the Old Grey Box set until they nearly memorize it. The Finder's Stone trilogy, especially Azure Bonds for it's mix of locations from Cormyr, the Dales, and Westgate really gets that Realms feeling for me (along with Ed's novels like Spellfire as has been mentioned obviously too).
I guess to add to what everyone said: Layers of backstory on everything, interconnectedness, sense of the rich history, attention to canon and continuity, and a sprinkling of iconic characters working in the background give it a Realms Feel to me.
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| scererar |
Posted - 12 Sep 2014 : 02:49:15
The feel of the realms to me will always be reflected in the novel: Spellfire, which is the first novel I read pertaining to the realms. I especially dug the interactions and comeraderie between the knights of Myth Drannor. Kemp and Schend as well as many other wonderful authors came along later and painted an excellent picture of the realms. All of their perspectives provide their own unique and equally outstanding "feel" of what the realms is to me.
I agree with others here, that the many layers bring the world to life and provides the feel that allows me to get lost in our wonderful imaginary world :) |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 11 Sep 2014 : 03:06:58
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Also, everything has a story, if only you know how to hear it. Even that rock you just tripped over and then thought you heard something. It whimpered with remembered pains from when it was a newly-wrought gargoyle on the spires of the first Illusk.....
Well there's a good idea right there.
Somebody ought to do something with that.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Sep 2014 : 02:45:34
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
For me the "Feel of the Realms" is that there is always another layer underneath what you think you know.
This. 1000 times, this.
Also, everything has a story, if only you know how to hear it. Even that rock you just tripped over and then thought you heard something. It whimpered with remembered pains from when it was a newly-wrought gargoyle on the spires of the first Illusk.....
You get the idea....
Agreed. Very much so.
I'd also only add that the "feel" of the Realms for me, is, essentially, what I make of it with the lore that is available. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 11 Sep 2014 : 01:54:15
For me it's really two important things that invoke a certain feeling.
The first is depth. The Realms is alive. People have lived there, died there, fought wars there, entire empires and civilizations have risen and fallen, and you are just viewing a tiny part of the story. This doesn't mean everything has to be detailed out completely, because you can create the illusion of depth as any good DM will be able to do. However, it is an art form that unfortunately not everyone who has worked on the Realms over the years has been able to achieve.
The second is interconnectivity. This directly radiates outward from depth. You can't really have one without the other. Everything in the Realms is connected to larger and smaller events. What is happening over here may have a direct or indirect impact on something happening over there. Nothing happens in isolation because the Realms is a living and breathing world.
These two things when brought together and used well create feelings of wonderment, excitement, and spur the imagination. When you read something good in the Realms, it should motivate you to want to learn more, to build a campaign or an adventure around it. The Realms should call out and beg to be explored, and every time you scratch the surface you should always discover that there is still things that you didn't know. This leaves you endlessly hungry for more.
This for me is the feel of the Realms. |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 11 Sep 2014 : 01:23:05
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
For me the "Feel of the Realms" is that there is always another layer underneath what you think you know.
This. 1000 times, this.
Also, everything has a story, if only you know how to hear it. Even that rock you just tripped over and then thought you heard something. It whimpered with remembered pains from when it was a newly-wrought gargoyle on the spires of the first Illusk.....
You get the idea....
That seems to be recurring theme. Everything is built upon the bones of ancient empires long gone or forgotten hence "Forgotten Realms".
I've always enjoyed that.
It's ironic since my first love was actually the Moonshaes, though to some the place can feel a bit incongruous, but it still feels Realmsian in it's uniqueness. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 11 Sep 2014 : 01:16:00
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
For me the "Feel of the Realms" is that there is always another layer underneath what you think you know.
This. 1000 times, this.
Also, everything has a story, if only you know how to hear it. Even that rock you just tripped over and then thought you heard something. It whimpered with remembered pains from when it was a newly-wrought gargoyle on the spires of the first Illusk.....
You get the idea.... |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 11 Sep 2014 : 00:48:07
For me, the quintessential "feels like the realms" books were probably "Elfshadow" and "Azure Bonds"
Edit: to Elaborate. Like others have mentioned, it used and harmonized with existing Canon.
Elminster, (Shadowdale/Cormyr-The settings) and Khelben(Waterdeep/Marsh of C/Darkhold/Evereska/Evermeet) were used in minor supporting roles in ways that just fit.
Hell, it was even fun when Drizzt and Wulfgar met Khelben and Malchor Harpell back in the day and flying out of their comfort zones into Calimport.. You just saw Iconic characters randomly helping at the DM's(Authors) discretion a lot more back in the day, using the setting to help tell the story.
I have enjoyed the books less when they evade using the established History and places as they were meant to be used, or just wrote their whole own version of the place. Salvatore using Damara and the crew in ROTP actually made the book way more enjoyable to me than the standard fare.
More recently, Paul Kemp managed to draw the mystique of Skullport and Shade into major parts of his work while writing his own places and I loved it. |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 11 Sep 2014 : 00:28:40
quote:
Originally posted by Crai
An ideal F.R. novel absolutely needs to be peppered with a wide and consistent array of Realmsian names, colloquialisms, geographical locales, and scene-appropriate cultural bon mots in order for me to get that electric "feel". I don't want to feel like my mind can easily assign a swapped-in alternative campaign world (Greyhawk, Eberron, etc.). I want my F.R. novels to be unmistakably F.R. - page after page.
Of course, this speaks nothing of authorship quality, technique and creativity of the given novel. But even poorly-written F.R. novels are cherished by me as long as there's an overwhelming immersion of F.R. lore goodies that I can use as my own springboard for my proprietary F.R. campaign world.
I agree with this. Having read just about every FR novel ever published beginning with Pools of Radiance, I REALLY agree.
Some novels you can change the cover and a few place names and it could be in any other setting.
To me, that's what sets certain authors and books in a special place. It's the flavor. The use words, the names, the culture, Realms-speak (though not too heavy).
I feel the same way about DMing elves. It's near impossible to actually put yourself in their shoes, but a few authors can do it, and do it well. Much like method acting, it's method writing.
Aside from that, the feeling of wonder, and never ending exploration. That feeling of reading every word in the 1st ed gray box, and left with more questions than answers.
In short that's what drives people to go to and play in the Realms.
Jeremy makes some great points but this setting IMO was built on the shoulders of giants, and they have already set the tone.
Does that mean authors can't riff off onto other tangents? Not at all. But it will definitely have a different feel.
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| Seethyr |
Posted - 11 Sep 2014 : 00:20:31
My "Realms feel" is hard to describe, but I can compare it to one event. Something truly magical happened a few decades ago when I opened that gray box and started pouring through those pages. Holy cow, I remember wanting to jump right into THAT world so fast it wasn't even funny. My original gray box is a MESS, because it got so much love back then.
Today, I pretty much enjoy anything realmsian (with the exception of material that destroys major portions, but I won't go there)...the real Realms feel though, comes when something reminds me of that original gray box experience. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 23:06:32
I’ve seen arguments erupt over this topic, usually because somebody has read, say, Dwarves Deep, and figures that every author should be treating that book as the ultimate dwarf bible, so they objct when they read names for dwarves cooked up by R.A. Salvatore that don’t fit.
The internet being the internet, some people figure that any author who appears to not follow Dwarves Deep has given the reader an opportunity to scream and yell online, be nasty and proclaim author X is unprofessional and doesn’t give a hoot about the Realms, because the author is “breaking the rules.”
And yeah, it’s good when authors color within the lines. Phrases like “French windows” don’t belong in Realms novels after all (though you can find that phrase in at least one book).
But…
The Forgotten Realms is a shared setting. It thrives when many hands stir the pot. That, and though there’s a lot written about the Realms, there is a ton of information we don’t know, which is to say that Dwarves Deep isn’t the ultimate dwarf bible. It just scratches the surface, which means there’s room for others to add stuff in. And I admit: some of Salvatore’s name choices grate on the ears at first. But then you learn about the characters and you begin to like them and their stories start to matter and then you discover that the names fit. This adds to the setting, which is something good Realms authors do.
So I can appreciate people wanting the “Realms experience” when they read Realms novels—that is, wanting to see what they read in sourcebooks represented in the novels.
The problem is that want is a limiting attitude. It’s closed off to new concepts and new Realmslore and, taken to extremes, can make the forum experience really sucky. All it takes is one person objecting for others to jump on the bandwagon and repeat the same old complaints. Troy Denning was vilified on these forums for a long time because he was, you know, Denning.
Novels are a chance to add lore and to expand Realmslore. And exceptions exist to every rule.
So I’m weary of any attitude that tries to pigeonhole the Realms. Yes there’s such a thing as going too far (see portions of the 4E FRCG), but deviating even slightly from a book like Dwarves Deep does not even begin to fall into that category.
That’s why I’m such a jerk. When I see people saying, for example, that the adventure “The Door From Everywhere” isn’t a Realms adventure or doesn’t have the “proper” Realms feel—especially when said by people who’ve never run the adventure!—I’m ready to knock them over the head. I mean that adventure rocks. It’s fun. I have never, ever, ever failed as a DM when I use that adventure. And to me it’s classic Realms because it lets you explore all over the place thanks to the many gates in the adventure, and it encourages the DM to figure out where some of the gates lead on his or her own.
Anyway, Realms sourcebooks should not be used to grade novels as to whether or not they match the “feel” of the Realms. They’re useful guides, and sometimes they are a body of conventions worth challenging. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 20:16:12
Like several have already stated, the feel of the Realms is depth. It's knowing that every place, item, person has history. If I can take a key figure to a story and begin researching them, I should feel like I've just knocked over a row of dominos or jumped down the rabbit hole headlong. Otherwise, it's just generic fantasy.
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| Crai |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 19:43:16
An ideal F.R. novel absolutely needs to be peppered with a wide and consistent array of Realmsian names, colloquialisms, geographical locales, and scene-appropriate cultural bon mots in order for me to get that electric "feel". I don't want to feel like my mind can easily assign a swapped-in alternative campaign world (Greyhawk, Eberron, etc.). I want my F.R. novels to be unmistakably F.R. - page after page.
Of course, this speaks nothing of authorship quality, technique and creativity of the given novel. But even poorly-written F.R. novels are cherished by me as long as there's an overwhelming immersion of F.R. lore goodies that I can use as my own springboard for my proprietary F.R. campaign world. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 16:48:27
It's a place where it's perfectly normal to be watched over by a sage who starts many things but rarely finishes them and a giant hamster. Woop woop woop!
Also I agree with everything else here. Especially the sly bawdiness. Thank you Ed and THO!
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 16:25:33
To me, the feel of the Realms is that it is a magical place, where wonders abound and where everything is tied together with a deep and richly detailed history. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 12:57:22
That every character, no matter how minor (nor if they are about to die an horrific dragon-crunching death) feels as if they are a fully-realized person with family, background, and needs & fears.
Oh, and sly bawdiness. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 12:53:09
For me the "Feel of the Realms" is that there is always another layer underneath what you think you know.
Every time you uncover the bad guys they were being manipulated by somebody else who in turn is the secret and unwitting agent of a secret society. And sometimes the whole thing was a set up from the start by one of the good guys who wanted to set off a chain of events of which you are just one small piece.
This kind of thing is only possible with a lot of detail.
Whenever I run a realms campaign I always try to have multiple layers of intrigue that the players are free to uncover if they wish. I also throw in phrases and names and curses to make sure the players know they are in a different world (one of my recurring villains threatened to slice the players up very thinly and use them for Jakes paper - it took a while before they figured out what a Jakes was but they all seemed to like the alternate words). |
| Derulbaskul |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 12:25:15
I remember when I first read Spellfire and how I was absolutely entranced by the description of the Zhentilar soldiers. That's what I want to see more of - much as BenN and George have also said - so that the Realms comes alive. I also want to be able to paraphrase the description of a location or character in a novel and relay it to my players. I appreciate authors who do some research.
And at the risk of upsetting the RAS fanboys again, I want names that sound like they belong in the Realms. For example, Reginald Roundshield, Parson Glaive, Murgatroid "Muttonchops" Stonehammer, Ragged Dain, Rocky Warcrown et al are suitable if you're the Weird Al of FR parody fiction but they're the sort of crap names most of us grew out of when we were 12 and thus utterly unsuitable for a published author (unless he or she is writing parodies).
Getting the names right is an important part of the Realms feel. Toss out a dwarf named Rocky or Murgatroid and your players (or readers) are going to be wondering if they're in the middle of the FR equivalent of WG7 Castle Greyhawk, a so-called joke adventure largely designed to insult Gary Gygax.
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 10:12:53
I'm with point 2) above as set out by BenN. The attention to detail and ability to weave creative thoughts seamlessly into the tapestry of the Realms provides the "feel of the Realms". Taking FR fiction as an example, if the plot location and people feel like placeholders for the story that unfolds, then IMO the writer hasn't really done their job in the context of shared world writing. The Realms deserve attention to detail and an effort to make the stories told there reflect the existing Realmslore and (hopefully) the desire to build on it.
-- George Krashos |
| BenN |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 05:31:41
For me, the 'feel of the Realms' means:
1) Respecting & harmonizing with canon. For example, when describing a new character or place, references could be made to past events, other FR people. In other words, the backstory should not conflict with other parts of the FR canon. If there are glaring, jarring conflicts, the authenticity of the 'Realms feeling' is lost. Case in point: the weird depiction of the drow & Llewyrr elves in Rose of Sarifal. (Hippy-chick drow priestesses? Emo elves with human slaves? Really?)
2) Details, details. The more details of how a scene looks, sounds, smells, with Realmsian turns-of-phrase, the better. Coupled with references to existing canon, this helps new characters & storylines to blend in seemlessly into the Realms as we know it. |
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