| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 02:25:58
So according to the new adventure that came out recently, the dragon creation myth according to Dragonborn is different then what we commonly know.
Io Died , and B and T came out representing two parts of the neutralness he represented being "children" of him by succession. |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 03:55:51
And let's not forget that both Bahamut and Tiamat were listed AS deities in the Planescape boxed set, and the Monster Mythology (Io is mentioned as their creator and a deity in his own right here) book as well. Ditto the Deities and Demigods book, and later in the Council of Wyrms campaign book, all three were listed as part of the draconic pantheon as well. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 17 Aug 2014 : 10:44:46
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(that is if Io and Asgorath are the same being... which hints are that they may be).
Well, 1992's Monster Mythology, the book that first introduced Io, says in Appendix 2 that "Asgorath and Zorquan may easily be seen as aspects of Io".
Cult of the Dragon, in the appendix on dragon deities, specifically states that Asgorath is Io. It maintains Zorquan as a separate deity.
Regarding Bahamut/Tiamat and Paladine/Takhisis, Planescape maintained that they were apparently separate deities, who are mysteriously similar (but still ambiguous enough for a campaign that makes them the same to be accurate). Personally, I would say that Paladine and Takhisis either split from Bahamut and Tiamat at the creation of Krynnspace, or the High God (the overpower of Krynnspace) created them as a mirror of the draconic deities. The latter has a nice symmetry with the independent creation of elves and other races in Krynnspace as well.
Jeff |
| see |
Posted - 17 Aug 2014 : 08:02:59
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(that is if Io and Asgorath are the same being... which hints are that they may be).
Well, 1992's Monster Mythology, the book that first introduced Io, says in Appendix 2 that "Asgorath and Zorquan may easily be seen as aspects of Io". |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Aug 2014 : 03:16:36
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I always thought Tiamat/Bahamut were too similar to their Dragonlance counterparts to be any kind of coincidence. Which puts them solidly based off 1st E. gods. I know people deny this up and down, but come on... they could be twins of the Dragonlance Paladine/Takhisis duo.
It's the other way around -- Bahamut and Tiamat predate Dragonlance. Paladine and Takhisis are knockoffs of the originals.
This is always a contentious issue each time it is brought up.
The following past quotes [from here at Candlekeep] are thoughts from myself, the Lady Hooded One, and references from Jeff Grubb and Tracy Hickman on the matter:-
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Paladine and Takhisis are based on Bahamut and Tiamat. There are those who say they are the same, others who do not. There are plenty of arguments to support either side.
Does it matter if there is an established connection?
Not really. After all, they'll fill one role in DRAGONLANCE, and other roles in other worlds. Besides, 3e set things up to where each world has its own cosmology anyway.
Having said that, I'll further note that Tracy Hickman has always said that Takhisis was separate from Tiamat. Whereas Jeff Grubb prefers to think otherwise.
Ultimately, I'd say it's up to the DM as to whether the connection exists, or not.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Well, I'd agree with Margaret and Tracy on just about everything Krynnish - - but NOT the gods. The gods of Dragonlance were Jeff Grubb's own gods, taken from his pre-existing D&D campaign. So on the Takhisis versus Tiamat thing, I'd go with Jeff's opinion.
(Most folks forget that Dragonlance was a created-in-house collaboration, with Margaret and Tracy emerging in the drivers' seats after their novels took off in popularity.)
Yes, I'm older than dirt.
love to all,
THO
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Aug 2014 : 01:54:56
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
So according to the new adventure that came out recently, the dragon creation myth according to Dragonborn is different then what we commonly know.
Io Died , and B and T came out representing two parts of the neutralness he represented being "children" of him by succession.
Ummm, this actually fits with the lore from FOR1 - draconomicon (that is if Io and Asgorath are the same being... which hints are that they may be). |
| see |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 21:02:36
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked MageStory goes the Dragonlance duo was at TSR in Wisconsin doing preproduction on Dragonlance publication in 81... chicken and the egg?
The platinum "King of Lawful Dragons" and the five-headed, wyvern-tailed "Queen of Chaotic Dragons" show up in 1975's "Supplement I- Greyhawk". Bahamut and Tiamat by name are both in the 1977 Monster Manual, and declared to be lesser gods in the "Nonhumans' Deities" section of the 1980 Deities & Demigods. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 17:59:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I always thought Tiamat/Bahamut were too similar to their Dragonlance counterparts to be any kind of coincidence. Which puts them solidly based off 1st E. gods. I know people deny this up and down, but come on... they could be twins of the Dragonlance Paladine/Takhisis duo.
It's the other way around -- Bahamut and Tiamat predate Dragonlance. Paladine and Takhisis are knockoffs of the originals.
Heck, I remember Tiamat from the old D&D cartoon. She was the only thing Venger was scared of.
They are both from the early 80s though. Tiamat was in the cartoons in 84, so figure in 83 they wrote that script. Story goes the Dragonlance duo was at TSR in Wisconsin doing preproduction on Dragonlance publication in 81... chicken and the egg? :P Either way, that's WAY before 2nd edition. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 14:47:14
If anyone is interest I have done an alternate take on the dragon creation story incorporating all the myths from the draconomicon (2E) , the major historic events between -31000 and -25000 and explaining what happened with the draconic pantheon along the way.
Should be out with issue 6 of my alternate dimensions fan magazine (although I haven't figured out a theme for that issue yet so it may get moved around. The dragon creation story is finished though.) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 14:42:48
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I always thought Tiamat/Bahamut were too similar to their Dragonlance counterparts to be any kind of coincidence. Which puts them solidly based off 1st E. gods. I know people deny this up and down, but come on... they could be twins of the Dragonlance Paladine/Takhisis duo.
It's the other way around -- Bahamut and Tiamat predate Dragonlance. Paladine and Takhisis are knockoffs of the originals.
Heck, I remember Tiamat from the old D&D cartoon. She was the only thing Venger was scared of. |
| Derulbaskul |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 11:50:45
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
on third thought, the term fatherload just plain sounds wrong - sorry I came up with that.
It's not so bad if you use the correct spelling - lode.
Yes, this is one of those times when being pedantic on the internet is a genuinely good thing. :) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 09:21:42
I always thought Tiamat/Bahamut were too similar to their Dragonlance counterparts to be any kind of coincidence. Which puts them solidly based off 1st E. gods. I know people deny this up and down, but come on... they could be twins of the Dragonlance Paladine/Takhisis duo. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 07:25:25
Creation myths are a symptom of religious doctrine. While dragons (as a group) may basically all revere the pantheon of draconic deities, there is no reason they need all observe the same religion, or interpretations of that religion. Indeed, there must be dragons whose religion (and creation myths) have been influenced by the teachings of non-draconic faiths.
As if metallic and chromatic dragon clades could ever agree on something as fundamental as their own religion and origin mythology. Let alone the other dragons.
Besides, I had thought dragons in the Realms had a different origin involving the Creator Races?
The draconic pantheon (and original creation myths) are a 2E invention, promoting archetype monsters towards proper divinity. 3E sort of snuck Bahamut and Tiamat into the divine ranks, and 4E firmly entrenched these dragongods as core deities. I would be unsurprise to see 5E manipulate their status a little more - I just hope it isnt done in an Orwellian fashion which contradicts and denies all previous lore as *invalid* just because it has a more recent publish date. |
| eeorey |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 03:24:11
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Arca creation myths are just that creation myths, this is the dragonborn view point (who are newcomers lol)
Indeed, It's more indicative of the dragonborn people than of dragons, it shows their viewpoint and culture, I remember reading about creation myths in the 3.5 Races of Destiny, some of them were pretty ridiculous and there where very different from each other, showing how different races perceive things and I had a lot of fun reading those. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 03:21:02
on third thought, the term fatherload just plain sounds wrong - sorry I came up with that. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 03:20:01
On the plus side, if Io died, that means his corpse is floating around the Abyss. Think of all the amazing things you could make out of THAT mother... er fatherload :P
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| silverwolfer |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 03:19:44
Arca creation myths are just that creation myths, this is the dragonborn view point (who are newcomers lol) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 03:18:40
call me REALLY old fashioned - but I miss The Great One et al. :P Good ol rules cyclopedia
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| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 02:49:49
*sigh* I really hate when they just throw out perfectly good lore for new crap. Seems they will never learn and likely won't earn my money. |
