| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 00:22:52
When I say fallen, I'm talking about an Angel that fell far enough to be corrupted into a fiend. For example someone like Malkizid. Is there a precedence for this in the Realms? |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 22:54:29
For us, Good and Evil can be complex, somewhat subjective, sometimes controversial extremes which possibly encompass a lot of moral grey areas and blurry boundaries. Sure, we all generally know something is Good or that its Evil, but our culture embraces morally ambiguous villains, dark heroes, and all sorts of things in between. Is an illithid evil because it has to suck the brains of sentients to survive? If so, can it continue to survive while seeking atonement and redemption? Is a fervent follower of an evil deity also evil? Even if this follower was taught to expect a happy afterlife after serving the one and only god who isnt false?
In D&D and the Realms, however, Good vs Evil is much more easily defined. For starters, every thinking being has an alignment which defines what it is. All the gods and goddesses and primordials and immortals and whatnot also have a fixed alignment, and often grant their priests and paladins the ability sense misaligned souls. The stuff of Good and Evil and Law and Chaos is the very essence of the Outer Planes, and it (along with the elemental stuff of the Inner Planes) serves as the fundamental building block of all worlds - including the Realms and all other D&D worlds.
Some D&D sources state that even nasty old Asmodeus can be redeemed, at least in theory, should he serious choose to better his ways. Other D&D sources state that it is categorically impossible for any fiend to ever remove the taint of evil from which they were spawned. Yet other D&D sources have examples of fallen angels and redeemed devils and whatnot.
Simple morality allows a paladin to righteously smite any and every being which is proclaimed evil, no hesitation, no reflection, no mercy, no excuses. Complex morality could argue that such a paladin is a murderer. FR fiction sometimes explores the more sophisticated and muddy version, although adventures tend to be written in the more simplistic tone. I would simply adopt whichever style makes for the most entertaining gameplay. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 20:44:38
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I would argue that, like the fallen angels of Catholicism, his primary sin leading him toward evil is pride and presumption. That is his nature. He could no more stop believing himself more deserving than all else than he could stop being branded. This is why I say he has no hope for redemption.
In general this is the case for fallen angels. Could they repent and be accepted again, perhaps.. Would they? No.
Only story I've ever heard about fallen angels finding a way back was Kevin Smith's DOGMA. Hilarious fkin movie :)
Huge fan of Dogma. 
Of course, Bartleby and Loki weren't really after redemption... They just wanted to go home.
The question at hand is whether or not redemption is, in general, possible. The likelihood of it, and/or whether or not it would be sought, are separate issues. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 18:52:17
I would argue that, like the fallen angels of Catholicism, his primary sin leading him toward evil is pride and presumption. That is his nature. He could no more stop believing himself more deserving than all else than he could stop being branded. This is why I say he has no hope for redemption.
In general this is the case for fallen angels. Could they repent and be accepted again, perhaps.. Would they? No.
Only story I've ever heard about fallen angels finding a way back was Kevin Smith's DOGMA. Hilarious fkin movie :) |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 15:18:34
The answer is yes. Like GK says you really don't need a precedent if it enhances your game.
Regarding Malkizid. While I doubt he will ever repent his evil, just because Corellon won't take him back (and I agree he likely wouldn't) doesn't mean Malkizid couldn't find his way back into 'the light.' |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 08:53:38
Umm, are you asking this as a DM or player? If the latter, it's up to your DM. If the former, it's up to you. Pretty sure you don't need a precedent if it enhances your game and enjoyment of it.
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 05:41:53
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If an angel can fall, or if a fiend can be redeemed -- both of which have been seen in either FR or Planescape canon -- than I don't see why an entity that went to the other side couldn't return. If the journey can be made in one direction by something that started with the opposite alignment, it should be just as possible -- if not easier -- for someone to return to their original alignment.
Only thing is, that Malkazid was one of those who were cast out. It was not his choice to become a devil - that was Corellon's doing, just like Lolth. I'm not saying it is impossible, but the devil would have to somehow get a major god to change his mind and embrace him...
Ah, but he had already fallen -- just because he didn't have the job title, it doesn't change what his nature had become. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 04:55:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If an angel can fall, or if a fiend can be redeemed -- both of which have been seen in either FR or Planescape canon -- than I don't see why an entity that went to the other side couldn't return. If the journey can be made in one direction by something that started with the opposite alignment, it should be just as possible -- if not easier -- for someone to return to their original alignment.
Only thing is, that Malkazid was one of those who were cast out. It was not his choice to become a devil - that was Corellon's doing, just like Lolth. I'm not saying it is impossible, but the devil would have to somehow get a major god to change his mind and embrace him... |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 04:02:30
Given the existence of Felthis Ap Jerran (a risen ultroloth), yes indeed it's possible, if an event bordering on legendary/unique. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 01:49:37
Never forget the Succubus Paladin, which is canon. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 01:01:16
If an angel can fall, or if a fiend can be redeemed -- both of which have been seen in either FR or Planescape canon -- than I don't see why an entity that went to the other side couldn't return. If the journey can be made in one direction by something that started with the opposite alignment, it should be just as possible -- if not easier -- for someone to return to their original alignment. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 01:00:04
I would say in Malkizid's case, there is no possibility of redemption.
Necessary for redemption is contrition, which would never happen. Also, I've seen no evidence that Corellon is overly forgiving. On the contrary. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 00:27:08
All can be redeemed, atonement though might be difficult. |
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