| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| rodrigoalcanza |
Posted - 11 Jul 2014 : 04:42:57
Hello!
I have not read many novels in the Forgotten Realms, so I ask those who have read many or all of Realms novels: it is possible to identify the magic system used in the Forgotten Realms novels?
Is vancian magic? Or is something more like the spell point system? The spellcasters forget their spells? First, Second, Third or Fourth Edition? The third has the sorcerers, clerics more powerful, and more metamagic, for example.
Are there any terms of gaming, like spell slots, spell level, schools, sphere, domains, etc. Metamagic? If no, how is it measured the power of a spell?
Or we can not detect in novels a specific magic system?
Thanks! |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 02 Aug 2014 : 09:23:50
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Look at her Evermeet novel. The elves from Faerie use high magic to transport to Faerun despite being only low level spellcasters and priestesses.
Ah, but how do you know "low level"?  Besides, IIRC additional casters in High Magic rituals can be non-HM, as long as there are just enough of HM users to start it; q.v.: mythals. And, again, priests can be an exclusion either way.
Also? It's an interpretation of ancient legends, in a compilation of stories as-told-by-the-elves, who somehow managed to completely omit many, many insignificant details... including the whole Kingslayer mess (dragons just... fallen into semi-obscurity somehow) and almost everything around Descent of the Drow! 
There is a paragraph in there about how they are too low to try but since there is a tsunami coming to kill them all they have to try anyways.
I never really looked at is as stories as passed down but more as this is what happened we have stories about this... the letters and the stories are separate after all :P
I imagine the kingslayer magic and descent of the drow were left out because they were not directly related to Evermeet... |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 02 Aug 2014 : 01:23:06
The way I've pictured D&D's brand of Vancian magic from 3e isn't that spells are memorised at all. What 3e text and subtext seemed to imply to me is that a spell worked more or less like this:
Magic Missile is a ritual that takes about five minutes to cast. However, it's constructed in such a way that a wizard can perform the first four minutes and fifty-seven seconds when they prepare their spells (I'm under the impression they didn't use the word "memorise" anymore, that idea pretty much only survived in the "Mnemonic Enhancer" spell). They leave the final bit of the ritual ready to be cast at any moment, and some kind of limit linked to their expertise puts a break on the number and complexity of such rituals they can perform and "save" at a given time, though that is usually abstracted. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Aug 2014 : 23:18:36
Stat inflation has occured across and within every major D&D game edition.
I still remember the good olde days when Manshoon was a lowly 16th-level magic-user, unable to even cast the infamous Stasis Clone spell which grants him a sort of immortality. Hearken back to a piddly 12th-level Drizzt, 18th-level Szass Tam, 26th-level Elminster, etc. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 01 Aug 2014 : 22:03:57
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Look at her Evermeet novel. The elves from Faerie use high magic to transport to Faerun despite being only low level spellcasters and priestesses.
Ah, but how do you know "low level"? Besides, IIRC additional casters in High Magic rituals can be non-HM, as long as there are just enough of HM users to start it; q.v.: mythals. And, again, priests can be an exclusion either way.
Also? It's an interpretation of ancient legends, in a compilation of stories as-told-by-the-elves, who somehow managed to completely omit many, many insignificant details... including the whole Kingslayer mess (dragons just... fallen into semi-obscurity somehow) and almost everything around Descent of the Drow!
quote:
In Elfsong Danilo casts the counter to a complex multiple layer ritual spell song - figure the equivalent of a 9th or even 10th level spell, despite being only a promising young mage. Later this was taken and written up in Wizards and Rogues as a new magic system for a new "spellsinger" class. Hated the stupid dancing bit added to that write up btw.
So... his level that is pulled out of thin air is too low for the spell's level, which is also pulled out of thin air?
"Spellsinger" in Wizards and Rogues may or may not be related at all. And even "later" here is fuzzy, as we don't know when it was written up, and release on the next year is not far enough to be sure how much of design/editing process happened before the final version of Elfsong (1995 was not quite in the era of insta-publishing yet).
I may well claim that Song Mage (from PO:S&M, also 1996) was supposed to be this - and it fits much better, being, y'know, a variant mage.
If you want something with given levels, in "Thornhold" Danilo casts Gemjump.
quote:
As far as L.B. goes I think the stats given to her when she got an entry in Heroes were WAY low.
I don't remember, but as likely as not. A lot of stats in HLb/VLb were obviously off, and those in Dragon were worse. If it was "Wiz 10/Fgt 13" as AD&D2 stats in FR@wikia, it's obviously off - in novels she wasn't much of a warrior, but used divine magic. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 01 Aug 2014 : 13:28:21
Also remember that pretty much ALL of Elaine Cunningham's books expanded on the idea of what magic is and how it can be used. Whether we're talking about the elves and moonblades, bards & spellsingers, or ancient runes there are constantly examples in her works of low level characters casting high level magics when in dire need.
Look at her Evermeet novel. The elves from Faerie use high magic to transport to Faerun despite being only low level spellcasters and priestesses.
In Elfsong Danilo casts the counter to a complex multiple layer ritual spell song - figure the equivalent of a 9th or even 10th level spell, despite being only a promising young mage. Later this was taken and written up in Wizards and Rogues as a new magic system for a new "spellsinger" class. Hated the stupid dancing bit added to that write up btw.
As Wolly mentioned this happens a lot.
As far as L.B. goes I think the stats given to her when she got an entry in Heroes were WAY low. She had been training under the guidance of Archmage of Menzo her whole life. At the beginning of her first novel she is becoming an adult, and is already easily more powerful than the strongest daughter of the drow clan that fostered her. As an initiate at the academy she was like a prodigy skipping past all the other students and in so doing gaining her worst enemy, and they both were powerful enough to warrant the direct attention of gods. I'll end my early morning ramblings here :P |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Jul 2014 : 23:02:13
Methinks the spell in question is Produce Flame, a lowly 2nd-level priest spell which lets the caster hurl numerous little burning globes around.
Magic-using characters in novels tend to make use of something many magic-using PCs ignore - they research their own spells! Or, over time, they manage to obtain unique spells researched by others. Either way, they invariable use pathetic common low-level spells which are readily recognizable by everyone ... or they hurl never-before-seen superpowers around for Realms fans to speculate and argue about.
Wooly hit it on the head:
Characters with rules-breaking edges often become prototypes for new game rules once they prove popular. Thus Drizzt spawned legions of scimitar-wielding drow emo outcasts, thus Spellfire is a basic rules component, thus all the Chosen have been somewhat standardized for any Realms deity one prefers. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 31 Jul 2014 : 05:56:34
quote:
Originally posted by rodrigoalcanza
Got it! The Fourth Edition novels reflect quite the change of the game system. Now, in previous editions it is not very clear.
So, based on what was said, a reader who does not play D&D could not define how the magic works only in the Forgotten Realms novels?
Now, if I really wanted to keep in my campaign one magic system compatible with what is seen in the novels, I could use different magic system, not only vancian? For example, a spell Ponit system, with or without fatigue? spell more adaptable to the desire of the mage?
I don't see why not. Like I said earlier, after reading the dozens of Realms novels involving spellcasters what's clear is that many of them being wizards need their spellbooks. Certain characters, like Galaeron Nihmedu for example, were depicted as sorcerers because the magic can naturally to him and he didn't require a spellbook. Further, i can't remember a novel in which a spellcaster states in-character knowledge of something abstract like Spell-Slots or Spell-Levels or forgetting the complex formula after casting a spell. This, to the contrary, was explicitly stated a few times with Raistlin Majere from the Dragon Lance novels while talking about how spellcasting takes it out of him physically and it wipes the spell from memory (thus, Vancian-system).
In regards to 4E, having read a few novels from the Post-Spellplague I don't think anything really separates the characters in novels from earlier versions. Wizards still need books to study, for example, and spell-slots are still there and abstract. |
| rodrigoalcanza |
Posted - 31 Jul 2014 : 04:32:05
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I've asked Ed on his thread how well fifth edition's semi-Vanceian system applies.
So... What Ed said about fifth edition's semi-Vanceian system applies in the Realms? |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 20:28:52
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
@TBeholder: It's been years since I read the series on Liriel but I distinctly remember her casting what appeared to be a meteor swarm spell (though it COULD have been a lesser spell that had multiple fireballs I suppose).
I can't remember where, but... Melf's Minute Meteors? |
| rodrigoalcanza |
Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 19:35:16
Got it! The Fourth Edition novels reflect quite the change of the game system. Now, in previous editions it is not very clear.
So, based on what was said, a reader who does not play D&D could not define how the magic works only in the Forgotten Realms novels?
Now, if I really wanted to keep in my campaign one magic system compatible with what is seen in the novels, I could use different magic system, not only vancian? For example, a spell Ponit system, with or without fatigue? spell more adaptable to the desire of the mage?
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Realms magic was Vanceian even pre-D&D. In Ed's novels and most others that I've read, spellcasters have a finite number of castings of spells, but we're not told that they forget them. 1st/2nd edition is the model that Ed adopted (in lore, not just in game), but it's not an exact match: each ruleset is like a limited description of a more subtle and complex underlying thing. Some authors just play fast and loose with how magic works. Skilled mages have fine control over their spells that is something like D&D 'metamagic' but not called that and not well reflected by any rules. I've asked Ed on his thread how well fifth edition's semi-Vanceian system applies.
The schools of magic are an in-world thing, but they aren't prominent in Realmslore, except in Thay. The power of spells is not mentioned according to a fixed scale, but we hear of minor spells, mighty spells, etc. None of those other terms are used in the world as they are in the game.
Okay! What Ed said about?
|
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 12 Jul 2014 : 18:12:02
@TBeholder: It's been years since I read the series on Liriel but I distinctly remember her casting what appeared to be a meteor swarm spell (though it COULD have been a lesser spell that had multiple fireballs I suppose). The point was it seemed well out of her league as a wizard. And as I recall it was in the first book, before anything of Lloth's favor or access to artifacts appeared. In lieu of what Wooley said though, it could have been indicative of Lloth's favor before it became apparent in the novels. For the record though, she was casting arcane magic at the time (not that a goddess couldn't enhance arcane magic). |
| Gyor |
Posted - 12 Jul 2014 : 17:04:53
In the 4e realms you see less vancian and more ADEU style, which has evovled into what I call 5e's Vancian plus. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 12 Jul 2014 : 16:44:50
In most of the Realms novels I've read, nothing suggests to me that the casters are Vancian (ie. use Spell Slots or have in-character knowledge of Spell Slots) and the few times I've read about wizards running out of spells, it's often because of fatigue rather than "oops, I don't remember how that spell works". In the post-Spellplague Realms, spellcasters don't seem to run out of magic unless it's paramount to the plot. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 12 Jul 2014 : 15:12:37
In the 4e realms you see less vancian and more ADEU style, which has evovled into what I call 5e's Vancian plus. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 11 Jul 2014 : 19:53:59
Realms magic was Vanceian even pre-D&D. In Ed's novels and most others that I've read, spellcasters have a finite number of castings of spells, but we're not told that they forget them. 1st/2nd edition is the model that Ed adopted (in lore, not just in game), but it's not an exact match: each ruleset is like a limited description of a more subtle and complex underlying thing. Some authors just play fast and loose with how magic works. Skilled mages have fine control over their spells that is something like D&D 'metamagic' but not called that and not well reflected by any rules. I've asked Ed on his thread how well fifth edition's semi-Vanceian system applies.
The schools of magic are an in-world thing, but they aren't prominent in Realmslore, except in Thay. The power of spells is not mentioned according to a fixed scale, but we hear of minor spells, mighty spells, etc. None of those other terms are used in the world as they are in the game. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Jul 2014 : 16:15:25
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
What Wooley said though I will point out that there has been variation in many novels. For instance, Liriel Baenre seemed to cast VERY high level magic in the novels she was featured. It lead me to believe the author was using a spell-point system that allowed for higher level casting (she was supposed to be a 'beginning' level character).
Even in a game setting, most authors don't stat up characters and stick with every single printed rule. Plot considerations over-ride the rules, so long as what happens isn't too much of a stretch. Bahb the Fighter suddenly casting a meteor swarm would be outside the bounds of believability, but Tim the Enchanter casting a spell that's a level or two above him isn't as much of a stretch.
With the referenced case of Liriel, for her higher-level stuff, she was drawing on either artifacts (like the Windwalker Amulet) or upon Lolth's favor. Lolth was, you may recall, very interested in Liriel, and went out of her way to favor Liriel to try to win her over. So Lolth was giving Liriel spells and such that would normally be way outside her abilities. That's something plot-driven, and not reflected in standard rules.
Most novel characters have abilities that do not fit neatly into established rules. More than once, I've seen discussions of stats on novel character X or Y that reflect that. Class 1 is a rough fit, with a couple special rules added in for the character. Then a later class comes out, and it's a much better fit -- likely because it was created with the character in mind.
I've done a spot of writing, myself, and I do stat up my characters -- but only for a rough idea of their capabilities, and I've created at least a couple of characters that have things that don't match the rules (like a thief with a familiar!), because it fits my vision of the character. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 11 Jul 2014 : 14:26:08
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
What Wooley said though I will point out that there has been variation in many novels. For instance, Liriel Baenre seemed to cast VERY high level magic in the novels she was featured.
There are case-by-case exclusions for priests, somewhat traditional in the Realms. But yeah, ceremonial magic is very sketchily covered in novels and not covered at all in sourcebooks (unlike e.g. Thieves' World version from Green Ronin).
quote:
It lead me to believe the author was using a spell-point system that allowed for higher level casting (she was supposed to be a 'beginning' level character).
How so?
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| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 11 Jul 2014 : 06:33:38
What Wooley said though I will point out that there has been variation in many novels. For instance, Liriel Baenre seemed to cast VERY high level magic in the novels she was featured. It lead me to believe the author was using a spell-point system that allowed for higher level casting (she was supposed to be a 'beginning' level character). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Jul 2014 : 05:13:07
It's usually Vancian casting, since it's a game setting and the game uses Vancian casting. There are some variations, but most novel spellslingers are Vancian-types. |
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