| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Naron |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 13:28:31
After a discussion about an imaginary exercise with the T-1000, from here: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=39478&start=45, I'd like to know if intelligent (and sentient) constructs could use arcane magic, namely if they can use the Weave.
My impression is that any intelligent creature (be it living or not) can use the Weave, if it has enough intelligence. But maybe I'm wrong, therefore I thought to ask the Candlekeep scholars. |
| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Jun 2014 : 22:55:20
Also, in older Realmslore, magic was somewhat more mysterious and temperamental, magic-use was considered more of an *art* than a *science*. The most accomplished magi were those who - like any other artist - possessed a combination of natural talent, mastery of technical skills, and some sort of special drive or vision which compelled them to express themselves meaningfully in their medium.
Art is as much an intangible as a soul. But even goblins can be artful in their peculiar (and savagely disgusting) own ways, perhaps this enables a few of them to practice magic? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Jun 2014 : 22:36:55
I'd be careful with tying it to a metaphysical entity like a soul. I'd simply go with the idea that anyone of intelligence can learn to manipulate the "tool" that is the weave, just as they could also manipulate a physical tool (such as a hammer), a purely intellectual tool (such as mathematics), or a tool based upon predictive wisdom (i.e. calling upon their references of things happening in the past to predict what will happen in similar instances in the future).
While I agree that the weave does have some ties to life energy, the lack of such should not inhibit spellcasting. It may make it easier to manipulate, such that possibly constructs are less likely/inclined to become spellcasters. There may be some magics that simply won't affect them due to their nature (for instance, magic jar may not work on constructs), but there may also be certain magics that affect constructs but won't affect living flesh individuals (for instance, a lower level version of a magnetism spell that works on constructs who are ferrous). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Jun 2014 : 23:03:15
D&D constructs are a variable category, but many of them do possess some sort of soul.
Alias is basically a semi-unique sort of automaton whose soul was cleaved from her companion Dragonbait.
In older sources, golems were instilled with some sort of elemental or other extraplanar life entity.
Simulacra are typically mindless and inanimate, little more than breathing mannequins which can be positioned as props. But reincarnation gives them a vital force, likely a stray spirit - and limited wish can grant them a portion of the originals personality and abilities.
Ghosts, banshees, and other incorporeal undead are basically souls/spirits who have been anchored to the Ethereal and Material planes. Many of these can cast spells.
Zombies and the like are mindless. But ju-ju zombies, ghouls, ghasts, and the like possess limited intelligence, human intelligence, or greater - and some of each type can cast spells. Not sure about the status of a zombie soul, nor about exactly what force animates it.
Shades, a la Shadovar, no longer possess any soul. Yet they can be fearsome magic users.
Many human-equivalent creatures exist (like dwarves, orcs, etc) who certainly must possess no less of a soul than a human, yet (at least in early D&D editions) were completely denied spellcasting, at least of the Weave-arcane sort. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Jun 2014 : 12:09:42
I would go more along the lines of a soul than intelligence being a requirement to casting spells.
Yes you do need to be intelligent to cast spells but magic in the realms is firmly interwoven with life (according to Ed, unless of course you follow the horror that is the Netheril boxed set).
Awaken Animal gives an animal intelligence but i reckon for the soulles creatures like contructs, spells, oozes, etc the awaken spell should give them a soul.
Of course then we get into problems about the outer and inner planes and how they can manipulate magic. Well outerplanar creatures are derived from souls so they can still use it, and inner planar creatures seem to be made of the building blocks (i.e. proto souls) so they should be able to use it as well.
Undead can still use magic because their soul is linked strongly with the negative energy plane which is how they remain alive after death (rather than their soul passing onto the outer planes).
Golems have no soul and so cannot use magic, even really smart golems cant use magic.
T1000 has no soul, it acts merely on extremely sophisticated programming, so i would vote no on magic.
But then again since i'm an atheist and i dont believe i have a soul which probably explains why i cant cast spells, and therefore nullifies my own argument because i'm human and humans in FR can cast spells. |
| Naron |
Posted - 19 Jun 2014 : 11:34:08
Thank you all for your answers. So, the T-1000 could cast arcane spells, given that he is intelligent and sentient? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Jun 2014 : 22:21:13
Realmslore has human-intelligence constructs who can certainly cast spells. Alias has made use of magics before, although she is a fighter. Some of her clone-sisters are magi, although few details about them have been officially provided. A character from one of the old FR novels is in fact a living, sentient illusion who happens to also be a masterfully accomplished illusionist. Similarly, the simulacrum spell (along with a few adjunct spells) can be used to create a thinking copy of any creature, any many simulacra (be they mages, priests, or dragons) are capable spellcasters.
I suppose spells like clone and magic jar, along with liches and phylacteries, could technically be called constructs, albeit not in the D&D categories or templates for constructs.
Many intelligent magical items, some only sentient, some only sapient, some lacking any human-like rational or cognition, are also capable of casting spells. Similarly, most psionically imbued items possess minds and can use psionic powers.
Finally, I would argue that many unintelligent beings - at least, stupid or even animal-like when compared against human intellect - are also capable of casting spells. Perhaps their magic is instinctive and lacks any real understanding of the Weave, perhaps they possess enough brains to do what they do in ways unenlightened humans cannot fathom. Apparently, human-equivalent intelligence is not actually needed to use magic, unless of course one happens to be equivalent to a human. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Jun 2014 : 00:15:25
there's an awaken construct spell in the 3rd edition spell compendium.
It should be noted that "living spells" are oozes in Eberron (and there is an awaken ooze spell in Dragon #304, page 38.... along with an awaken beast and awaken magical beast), but that the "spell wards" near Rashemen's ring of gray flames are referred to as spell "constructs" given life (though I suspect they are possibly also living spells and therefore oozes rather than constructs). |
| Faraer |
Posted - 18 Jun 2014 : 00:00:21
Life in the sense that an animal or plant has it isn't needed, because there are liches. I would say that a soul is needed, and that anything conscious has a soul, including things like intelligent enchanted items and constructs. But it's the soul that works the magic and intelligence is one of its properties. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 23:41:34
There is or was awaken spell that also could allow anything with a brain to take a class.
3.5 (only because is easy to copy) quote:
You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened).
The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it.
An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s.
An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.
An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any).
It can follow that you could awaken metal as well. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 23:06:10
I would say it would depend on the nature of the construct...
In Eber-whatsit, the warforged are capable of becoming spellcasters. When I wrote up my Livegolems, my sample one is a arcane caster who enjoy's Mystra's favor. Not a Chosen, but a little more than your average mage.
She's not a traditional type of construct, but Cat Wyvernspur is a wizard.
I've got a third-party book called Constructs, and it inspired me to create a construct that looks human, as an NPC. I made her a spellcaster, as well.
Now, your average golem? No. But if you can create one with human-level intelligence? Why wouldn't they be capable of casting spells? |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 14:29:26
I'd say that your intuition is probably accurate: if given proper instructions and components, anything, be they living, undead or other wise active, can cast spells based on the weave if equiped with enough 'understanding' (high charisma or intelligence).
Still, they might be heavily penalized casting spells because of unexpected interference of the metal in their bodies with any build up arcane energies, which is usually considered a hindrance for normal spellcasters (arcane spell failure chance).
Additionally, a contructs form might be unable to manipulate some material and somatic components of particular spells.
I can also see some constructs with high magic resistance (like the outright spell immunity of most golems) as being unable to 'store or gather' arcane energies in their physical form. That would make them unable to cast arcane spells in almost all circumstances (in addition to being mindless and unable to cast because of that).
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