| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Plaguescarred |
Posted - 26 May 2014 : 21:07:23
Mike Mearls confirmed on twitter that the Sundering wraps up with the Herald;
@mschdesign Is the #Dnd #realms #Sundering over? Tyranny of Dragons doesn't mention the Sundering anymore. #gencon
@mikemearls Sunderiang wraps up with the final novel in the series, Ed Greenwood's The Herald |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 21 Jun 2014 : 23:27:17
I was listening to a podcast from last year today. Ed summed up what is going on nicely. He said its not a reset or reboot. Its a renewal of the realms. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Jun 2014 : 07:20:04
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I made one last attempt at getting the Sundering Novels at my local B&N. Not only didn't they have ANY, but the 'gaming shelf' got even worse (the one for D&D now is half DL, and half Drizzt, with NOTHING ELSE). I searched every section of the store, TWICE, to no avail.
I decided to speak to someone in charge this time, and told her how much better Borders used to be. With a derisive look, she said "Barnes & Noble is a MATURE store - we cater to people who enjoy literature, not pulpy garbage". I didn't even respond... i didn't know how to. This woman just decided what everyone else SHOULD be reading, and acted like that was perfectly normal. 
Okay, I think I've described this particular store a few times - bottom floor is half 'gift shop' (with things like coffee mugs and reading lights), and the other half is split half 'new releases/best sellers', and gaming and a snack shop. So the actual book section on the lower floor is 1/4 the space (and is shared by a couple racks of 'hot music CDs'). Upstairs is 3/4 children's books (the expensive kind with toys and other gimmickry thrown in to make kids want them, and rich grandparents too busy to actual bother finding out the kid's interests are). The final 1/4 of that floor is the actual 'book store', and there is just two rows of scify/fantasy (mixed with horror, of course). There are two more rows of fiction, and the rest (just a couple more rows) are the non-fiction stuff (things like cookbooks and self-help crap).
THAT is her definition of a 'mature book store' - 3/4 of the actual book store being over-priced children's books (most of which are more 'toy' then book). The place is HUGE, and has hardly any books at all. I've been in tiny little bookshops that had more to offer.
I hate to order books online, and I don't want to move. I am not sure what to do at this point - I fear I may have to give-up reading altogether. And I am way to old to get used to this new-fangled 'kindle-thing'. I may have to just get rich and open-up my own damn bookstore. 
Guess I'll have to start ordering books at Amazon... it so weird to me to not be able to browse an actual store and FEEL the books. I think the world has lost something very special. Perhaps I'll find a very 'mature' 3-year-old to give my B&N giftcard to...
I long ago shifted to Amazon for my gaming needs. Of course, since the 4th edition, those gaming needs have decreased considerably. As to an e-reader, I only have one for those books that I don't want to spend the rest of my life hauling from one place to another (because I never sell books to a used book store after reading them... though I may have too soon... the last time I moved, about 1/3 of my boxes were books, either novels or game books). |
| hobbitfan |
Posted - 21 Jun 2014 : 03:03:31
I think the Sundering was a soft reboot type solution as well.
I just wish that WOTC could find a way to update fans on the current state of the Realms before running stuff like Tyranny of Dragons in it.
Say I haven't read the Sundering books, how am I supposed to know what's going on?
Say I'm a returning fan who hasn't played since 3, how do I know what's going on? What about lapsed players who haven't gamed in the FR since 1 or 2? How are they supposed to know what's going on?
New fans? Same issue.
I'm confused by them using the Realms for these adventures without giving people a heads-up on what's going on.
It would be different if the last published supplement was a stable situation but it wasn't.
4E book plus Sundering novels equals confusion.
3E books plus Sundering novels equals confusion as well.
I think WOTC can do something to alleviate this confusion.
|
| Seethyr |
Posted - 19 Jun 2014 : 05:30:26
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
It's basically the only way to fix the setting short of doing a complete reboot. In fact, I would actually look at the Sundering as a "soft reboot".
Basically, imagine picking up the Grey Box for the first time. All that you know about the Realms is pretty much there on the page. The Realms is just going to move forward as if it were fresh and new all over again - wiping away the crap that accumulated over the years from one RSE after another.
Now, I think it might be legitimate to argue that a straight up reboot might have been better. However, that isn't the direction that people wanted to go, and I think I largely agree with that decision. Mostly due to the novels. If it were not for the novels and their characters, I'd be pretty much pro-reboot.
We would have landed in the same pile of crap had there been a reboot anyway. People would have claimed it was throwing away previously established lore.
So, in the end, I think this was the best solution... a "soft reboot".
+1 to all of this.
I am so happy to be able start fresh without saying all that came before is now just nonsense. I can definitely sense Greenwood's and Salvatore's hand in this all, can't go wrong with that. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 08:49:27
While I have really enjoyed reading the Sundering novels , I have to agree that I was expecting more bang for my buck.
But it seems like the series pretty much just focused on hitting the reset button and bringing back 3e stuff. |
| Neo2151 |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 06:48:12
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I made one last attempt at getting the Sundering Novels at my local B&N. Not only didn't they have ANY, but the 'gaming shelf' got even worse (the one for D&D now is half DL, and half Drizzt, with NOTHING ELSE). I searched every section of the store, TWICE, to no avail.
I decided to speak to someone in charge this time, and told her how much better Borders used to be. With a derisive look, she said "Barnes & Noble is a MATURE store - we cater to people who enjoy literature, not pulpy garbage". I didn't even respond... i didn't know how to. This woman just decided what everyone else SHOULD be reading, and acted like that was perfectly normal.
Okay, I think I've described this particular store a few times - bottom floor is half 'gift shop' (with things like coffee mugs and reading lights), and the other half is split half 'new releases/best sellers', and gaming and a snack shop. So the actual book section on the lower floor is 1/4 the space (and is shared by a couple racks of 'hot music CDs'). Upstairs is 3/4 children's books (the expensive kind with toys and other gimmickry thrown in to make kids want them, and rich grandparents too busy to actual bother finding out the kid's interests are). The final 1/4 of that floor is the actual 'book store', and there is just two rows of scify/fantasy (mixed with horror, of course). There are two more rows of fiction, and the rest (just a couple more rows) are the non-fiction stuff (things like cookbooks and self-help crap).
THAT is her definition of a 'mature book store' - 3/4 of the actual book store being over-priced children's books (most of which are more 'toy' then book). The place is HUGE, and has hardly any books at all. I've been in tiny little bookshops that had more to offer.
I hate to order books online, and I don't want to move. I am not sure what to do at this point - I fear I may have to give-up reading altogether. And I am way to old to get used to this new-fangled 'kindle-thing'. I may have to just get rich and open-up my own damn bookstore.
Guess I'll have to start ordering books at Amazon... it so weird to me to not be able to browse an actual store and FEEL the books. I think the world has lost something very special. Perhaps I'll find a very 'mature' 3-year-old to give my B&N giftcard to...
I absolutely feel your pain! 
My town used to have a Walden Books, a Borders, a B&N, and a Books-a-Million. Now all we have is the B&N and they have ALWAYS had a piss-poor excuse of a fantasy section.
Luckly, we also have some amazing used books stores that tend to keep up with new releases as well. Otherwise, I don't know what I'd do! (Also not very into this e-reader craze - I refuse to purchase an e-reader of some kind, just to have to spend as much [or even more sometimes!] money on a digital book as I would on a physical one. It's nonsense!) |
| charger_ss24 |
Posted - 14 Jun 2014 : 16:34:35
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
You make a good point, Maploq, but I think the disappointment--or at least mine--comes from the hype they built up around the novels themselves. They said all this stuff was going to happen, but the Sundering was really a backdrop for other events. Now, most of the novels were good, and I hope there are sequels, but they built all this greatness around the Sundering, and it wasn't what I expected. Of course we don't know the full extent of things, and won't until the campaigns come out, so maybe it is too early to judge, and I did enjoy the novels, but I think the "official" 5e material will be post-Sundering, and since all thr build-up had been about the Sundering, people are thinking "that's it?"
Here's the thing: Some of us here (probably most) do the campaigns and stuff like that, I for one, do not. So from a novel standpoint, this is perhaps a "that's it?" moment for me. I'm sure we'll see a continuation of these storylines, but I'll probably never get the meat and potatoes of what the Sundering was really about. I got more meat and potatoes of what the Time of Troubles was about in the Avatar Trilogy. The Sundering series just offered me a plain, boring salad.
I haven't yet read The Herald, but there is no way that the book (as great it may/may not be) can save the series from my point of view. This series, as a whole, was a complete flop. The Companions and The Godborn were great reads to start it off, but it was all down hill, so far, from there. I didn't care for The Adversary at all, The Reaver wasn't that much better and The Sentinel was just ok enough that I might follow Kleef Kenric's story forward if there is one.
One thing that irks me off the most about the Sundering is that it cost us the Cycle of Night trilogy.
Just my $3.37 worth in gas. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 13 Jun 2014 : 16:50:49
Sorry you're having such trouble, Markustay. I order books from Amazon a lot, and love it, but I also shop at my local B&N store. Their fantasy section is pretty good, but I too have noticed a lot of their FR books are Drizzt. However, I have been able to find the Sundering books. They're usually in the new releases in Fantasy and Sci-Fi section. I usually snag them on the day they are released though, so maybe that's why. But I use Amazon a lot, and like them. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Jun 2014 : 13:51:45
I made one last attempt at getting the Sundering Novels at my local B&N. Not only didn't they have ANY, but the 'gaming shelf' got even worse (the one for D&D now is half DL, and half Drizzt, with NOTHING ELSE). I searched every section of the store, TWICE, to no avail.
I decided to speak to someone in charge this time, and told her how much better Borders used to be. With a derisive look, she said "Barnes & Noble is a MATURE store - we cater to people who enjoy literature, not pulpy garbage". I didn't even respond... i didn't know how to. This woman just decided what everyone else SHOULD be reading, and acted like that was perfectly normal.
Okay, I think I've described this particular store a few times - bottom floor is half 'gift shop' (with things like coffee mugs and reading lights), and the other half is split half 'new releases/best sellers', and gaming and a snack shop. So the actual book section on the lower floor is 1/4 the space (and is shared by a couple racks of 'hot music CDs'). Upstairs is 3/4 children's books (the expensive kind with toys and other gimmickry thrown in to make kids want them, and rich grandparents too busy to actual bother finding out the kid's interests are). The final 1/4 of that floor is the actual 'book store', and there is just two rows of scify/fantasy (mixed with horror, of course). There are two more rows of fiction, and the rest (just a couple more rows) are the non-fiction stuff (things like cookbooks and self-help crap).
THAT is her definition of a 'mature book store' - 3/4 of the actual book store being over-priced children's books (most of which are more 'toy' then book). The place is HUGE, and has hardly any books at all. I've been in tiny little bookshops that had more to offer.
I hate to order books online, and I don't want to move. I am not sure what to do at this point - I fear I may have to give-up reading altogether. And I am way to old to get used to this new-fangled 'kindle-thing'. I may have to just get rich and open-up my own damn bookstore.
Guess I'll have to start ordering books at Amazon... it so weird to me to not be able to browse an actual store and FEEL the books. I think the world has lost something very special. Perhaps I'll find a very 'mature' 3-year-old to give my B&N giftcard to... |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 10 Jun 2014 : 05:48:17
You make a good point, Maploq, but I think the disappointment--or at least mine--comes from the hype they built up around the novels themselves. They said all this stuff was going to happen, but the Sundering was really a backdrop for other events. Now, most of the novels were good, and I hope there are sequels, but they built all this greatness around the Sundering, and it wasn't what I expected. Of course we don't know the full extent of things, and won't until the campaigns come out, so maybe it is too early to judge, and I did enjoy the novels, but I think the "official" 5e material will be post-Sundering, and since all thr build-up had been about the Sundering, people are thinking "that's it?" |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 10 Jun 2014 : 05:00:29
I could be wrong, but I guess my whole point here is I'm getting a good sensation from the way things are being done. I'll try to explain why.
I want there to be a 5e FRCS that is very good (or some equivalent product or series). Even if it won't make me like the new era more than the 1300s (I consider that pretty much an impossibility), it would probably ensure that more material keeps being produced for the Realms, lots of which I will have fun reading.
It makes complete sense that such a book needs a long production schedule, and that it needs to be launched a good bit after the 5e rules, so that it can have all the attention it deserves from the producer.
It makes a lot of sense that anything produced before this book will touch the Realms tangentially. These novels and adventures shouldn't be showing all the changes to the Realms, because that needs to be done properly, in a setting book or similar format.
It seems highly unlikely that WotC will drive the FR as its flagship setting and give people nothing but tangential material in novels, adventures and starter sets to work with. So that, for me, is a sign there is (or will be) some major work being done on a setting book.
As I said, I could be wrong, but if WotC tries to sell the FR to anyone with only what they're showing so far, then it's extremely likely to fail miserably, which is what some people here seem to be inferring. I prefer to take the fact that this is so obviously unworkable as a sign that it probably won't be done, rather than that it will be.
This is speculation, however, What we can analyse, though, is if WotC is doing what they announced. And I've argued several times that they are, and I don't fell in the least bit cheated by the way they have taken the Realms this year, it's all pretty much exactly what they said they'd be doing. Now they aren't saying much about the future anymore, except for a few statements that it should be more well-established, with less meaningless revolutions, recover some of the old flavour, etc. So going by the fact that they stayed true to the Sundering, we can hope to presume they will stay true to their other promises as well. Of course, I'm not putting any money on it, but hope is pretty cheap. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 09 Jun 2014 : 22:06:00
quote:
Originally posted by Rils
I respectfully disagree. The Realms is unashamedly their flagship setting for the release of the new edition. The Starter Set adventure is FR, the first two published adventures are FR, Mearls said that even the examples in the DMG are FR, the new Organized Play system "League of Adventurers" is FR with clear factions like the Harpers, Zhentarim and Emerald Enclave to join, etc. Even related transmedia releases like computer games are FR. Every single product and system that WotC has announced to date for the 5th ed release involves the Realms.
Rils makes a really good point here. They're doing a lot to reach the younger players via media that will appeal to their age category. For the older players, they've released tons of old products in their PDF store. Additonally, while it isn't Realms-specific, they have reprinted OD&D, 2E, and 3.5 core books for those of us who's gaming resources are getting a little worn from use.
Also, it does seem to be that their Primary focus right now is the Core Books. The Sundering novels and FR adventures are there to tide you over until the Core has had its.spotlight time.
|
| Rils |
Posted - 09 Jun 2014 : 16:56:22
I respectfully disagree. The Realms is unashamedly their flagship setting for the release of the new edition. The Starter Set adventure is FR, the first two published adventures are FR, Mearls said that even the examples in the DMG are FR, the new Organized Play system "League of Adventurers" is FR with clear factions like the Harpers, Zhentarim and Emerald Enclave to join, etc. Even related transmedia releases like computer games are FR. Every single product and system that WotC has announced to date for the 5th ed release involves the Realms. |
| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 09 Jun 2014 : 07:52:34
quote:
Originally posted by hobbitfan
The paucity of information is a little frustrating to me.
What are they doing with the Realms to draw back lapsed players?
What are they doing to attract new players?
From what I've seen and heard recently, the answers to both of your questions would be either, "As little as possible," or, "Nothing at all".
EDIT: Sorry for the rather negative statement I wrote, it's just that I'm as frustrated about this as you. |
| hobbitfan |
Posted - 09 Jun 2014 : 06:22:08
The paucity of information is a little frustrating to me.
What are they doing with the Realms to draw back lapsed players?
What are they doing to attract new players?
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 09 Jun 2014 : 05:33:19
As always the fiction side is driving the bus.
-- George Krashos |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 08 Jun 2014 : 20:40:34
quote:
Originally posted by hobbitfan
Unless you played in one of the organized play modules or read the 6 novels, the Sundering doesn't seem to have a presence at all.
It seems like they could have engaged the fans more....
With what? DDI is a pathetic product. They didn't even both releasing the third Sundering adventure module as a printed product and they're transitioning into a new edition.
The Sundering is just a marketing gimmick to right a few wrongs they think will make everything ok again in the eyes of the fans that hit eject for Golarion. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 06 Jun 2014 : 00:45:52
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
I get your frustration, but there wasn't false advertising if you listened to the GenCon stuff.
If you read my post, I've never said that, but the marketing and hype is definitely there (not that I'm blamig them for it, every corporate does, but I'm attributing to it the fact that people's expectancy wasn't met).
As for the metaplot, idk what was said in the Herald, but -AFAIK- the other stories explained very little about it. Does Ed's book say something more than 'Ao does his magic, stuff gets fixed and Abeir and Toril are separated again'? |
| Blueblade |
Posted - 06 Jun 2014 : 00:39:07
But Irennan, the metaplot isn't unexplained, if you've read The Herald.
In that novel, Larloch tells El a lot about it, Mystra tells him something about it, Shar tells Telamont something about it, and the two sisters in Candlekeep argue with El about it...so we as readers may not known all the details of what the Sundering did in this or that location in the Realms, or the planetary mechanics, if I may misuse a phrase, of Abeir and Toril coming apart, but we end up knowing a lot of what the gods were pushing mortals to do (and all of the fighting that resulted).
If you were looking for a great map and explanatory overview of how the Realms turned out, once the Sundering was done, I would love that too, but we were told early on in the Sundering process at GenCon panels that the novels wouldn't be "about" those things - - so I'm hoping the 5th Edition Realms sourcebooks (or whatever format products will be the root Realms products going forward) will cover those things.
I get your frustration, but there wasn't false advertising if you listened to the GenCon stuff. I recall Ed explaining that the novels will be "over the shoulder POV of mortal protagonists as they live through the Sundering, 'on the ground,' so 'you are there' as it happens, to experience it as vividly, and as confusingly, as they do."
And Greg Leeds, the president of Wizards, was there and was smiling and nodding (this was at the Indiana Roof Ballroom "Night of D&D" party event, in the long lines of authors autographing), which confirmed it for me. Very much the same thing was said at the panels, too, but I didn't see Mr. Leeds at those.
So we were told what the novels would cover, and that's JUST what we got.
Believe me, I ache to know more of the "why," and which gods and countries and cities survived or returned or have gone away for good, too, but . . . we're just going to have to wait and see.
BB |
| Irennan |
Posted - 06 Jun 2014 : 00:18:02
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Those stories would have been better as stand-alone or trilogies, the authors would have had more room to explain details, develop characters and events and do their thing, even possibly resulting in a more enjoyable experience, IMO. If you take the books and remove their label about 'THE SUNDERING', very little would change, according to what I've understood.
As I see, that was the whole point of it. The Sundering (novel line) isn't really about the story of The Sundering (what's happening in the Realms).
Exactly. However when you label and hype something as THE SUNDERING, it is reasonable to expect at least some metaplot. So my point is: it's not that people are nuts and complained because they think that QQing is cool, it's that The Sundering is not what its name and marketing could lead to think.
I hope I managed to explain myself this time. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 06 Jun 2014 : 00:02:44
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Those stories would have been better as stand-alone or trilogies, the authors would have had more room to explain details, develop characters and events and do their thing, even possibly resulting in a more enjoyable experience, IMO. If you take the books and remove their label about 'THE SUNDERING', very little would change, according to what I've understood.
As I see, that was the whole point of it. The Sundering (novel line) isn't really about the story of The Sundering (what's happening in the Realms). Sure, it'll include a lot of elements from it, but it's not the point. I think some people are misinterpreting what Mearls said. If you assume he was making any sense, what he meant is that the Sundering product line is done. You won't see Sundering logos anywhere anymore. But obviously the whole story hasn't been told yet, and that's because it can't be told in a novel or adventure, it has to be told in a campaign book, with top-down god's eye view - it has to be told in the 5e FRCS. That's what they have to do if they have any sense.
Edit: typos |
| Irennan |
Posted - 05 Jun 2014 : 23:21:56
quote:
Originally posted by BenN
Also, I think one must take into account the fog of war (something Ed mentioned in reply to one of my questions about The Herald). Seeing events from the individual viewpoint, there is vivid short-range detail, but inevitably some big things remain unseen or obscured.
These are not history books, and the absence of some detail gives DMs freedom to use their own imagination in filling-in the blanks.
I for one am glad that WoTC, Ed and the other authors have responded to loyal players'/readers' concerns about the direction the Realms was going.
You mean some details like the complete lack of any sort of metaplot and clear info about what this Sundering is? Also, do you think people buy books about a given topic because they want to fill-in the blanks (which -when it comes to this specific RSE- take more space than the content itself)? You don't need to pay in order to make up your own lore.
As I said, mine was not a comment about the featured changes or the novels themselves. It was an answer to some remarks about people being impossible to satisfy. The Sundering, which was hyped so much (and still happened, so it doesn't make sense to say that people are complaining about the lack of RSE), turned out to be some vague, unexplained Deus ex Machina to reset stuff. That's where the unsatisfaction comes from.
Those stories would have been better as stand-alone or trilogies, the authors would have had more room to explain details, develop characters and events and do their thing, even possibly resulting in a more enjoyable experience, IMO. If you take the books and remove their label about 'THE SUNDERING', very little would change, according to what I've understood.
quote:
There may be cheese, but who doesn't like cheese? Are you lactose-intolerant or something? 
Oh c'mon. Did you really have to go there? Nonsense is never good, logic can and should be applied to fantasy in order to produce good stories (the only good cheese is the one that enriches the setting. Magic, the gods, mystical creatures/events, cosmology and so on. Cheese is really stinky when applied to characters' choices and behaviour). The only reason why this stuff about 'Ao broke it and then fixed it' can be tolerated is that the Realms are already drowning in cheese and at this point anything would do to pull them out of it. In fact, as already mentioned, the Sundering is just the tool to restore valuable elements of the setting that were unjustly thrown away. Nonetheless this kind of plot can't be taken seriously and only diminishes the setting, especially for new readers (personally, if upon picking the FR up I had read that this kind of stuff happens in it -and on a somewhat consistent basis-, I would have never bothered with the setting). |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 05 Jun 2014 : 22:43:07
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
With the Sundering, we have NONE of that context going into these novels. And frankly, the purpose, reasons, and goings-on of the Sundering itself is the primary thing we want to know.
I understand this sentiment, as a FR lore buff I'd love to know more about it as well, but...
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Sure, people can say, "well, this is what they told us they'd do" and also "it's probably going to be explained in more detail in the 5E FRCG" but it's a completely backwards way of telling the overall metastory.
...
And to tell the truth, I'm not sure we're ever going to get more detail, much less any in-depth detail, about the reasons behind the Sundering - or the Spellplague for that matter.
That's basically it - I don't think we're going to get to know much more about the Sundering. It's a background plot device to just explain all the changes. By not addressing it directly, they can change whatever they want in the setting, however they want to change it and then say, "The Sundering did it!"
It's basically the only way to fix the setting short of doing a complete reboot. In fact, I would actually look at the Sundering as a "soft reboot".
Basically, imagine picking up the Grey Box for the first time. All that you know about the Realms is pretty much there on the page. The Realms is just going to move forward as if it were fresh and new all over again - wiping away the crap that accumulated over the years from one RSE after another.
Now, I think it might be legitimate to argue that a straight up reboot might have been better. However, that isn't the direction that people wanted to go, and I think I largely agree with that decision. Mostly due to the novels. If it were not for the novels and their characters, I'd be pretty much pro-reboot.
We would have landed in the same pile of crap had there been a reboot anyway. People would have claimed it was throwing away previously established lore.
So, in the end, I think this was the best solution... a "soft reboot". |
| BenN |
Posted - 05 Jun 2014 : 22:32:40
I guess its a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
If we're comparing The Sundering to WW2, we're now around VE or VJ Day in 1945. At that time, in a given snapshot, did the survivors know everything that we do now about the grand sweep of geo-political events, what happened where? I don't think so. It took time, and historians are still arguing about a lot of things 60 days 70 years later. I expect more detail will be added in subsequent novels (not to mention the FRCG).
Also, I think one must take into account the fog of war (something Ed mentioned in reply to one of my questions about The Herald). Seeing events from the individual viewpoint, there is vivid short-range detail, but inevitably some big things remain unseen or obscured.
These are not history books, and the absence of some detail gives DMs freedom to use their own imagination in filling-in the blanks.
I for one am glad that WoTC, Ed and the other authors have responded to loyal players'/readers' concerns about the direction the Realms was going. There may be cheese, but who doesn't like cheese? Are you lactose-intolerant or something?
edit: I can't count apparently. Early morning coffee not kicking-in yet..... |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 05 Jun 2014 : 22:16:24
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I think you're missing the point. The Sundering was hyped as the mother of all RSE, the one RSE to end them all. It was supposed to be the definitive change to the Realms, altering the setting forever and so on (insert buzz-statement here). It is logical to expect the novels to shed light on what it is about, instead of hinting that something huge is happening in the background while explaining nothing about it and only showing random changes happening everywhere.
Also, even if the RSE has not been explicitly shown, it still happened, the complaints are not about it being not enough RSE-y, but about not being explained.
I get that the books were written from a mortal perspective, but branding the series as THE SUNDERING and then giving it 0 metaplot (AFAIK) clearly is some marketing device to increase the hype for novels and consequently sales.
Personally, I think that it would have been better to publish the stories as stand-alone or trilogies, applying the changes in a more sensible and specific manner. In fact the idea behind the Sundering is stupid level of cheese IMO. I can't take the Realms seriously when you have stuff like Ao letting all the cataclysms and destruction that plagued Toril for centuries happen just so that he could teach the gods a lesson about good behaviour, and then coming around and fixing it all with its overgodly magic. Like, is this real? To me it sounds like telling people ''hey we're resetting some widely disliked stuff, but we want to pretend we are not''.
NOTE: This is not a comment about the stories themselves or the changes to the Realms, it is about the concept of Sundering.
I agree with all of this, especially the parts I highlighted.
On one level, I understand that the Sundering novels were all advertised as standalone stories, individual snapshots of local adventurers with the Sundering as a backdrop.
To paraphrase someone at WotC, it would be like having World War II, but not concentrating on the war itself.
And that's all well and good, but there's a GIGANTIC difference when it comes to stories told with a WWII backdrop: everyone knows all about that war, why it happened, who the major players were, and what all happened all over the entire globe.
With the Sundering, we have NONE of that context going into these novels. And frankly, the purpose, reasons, and goings-on of the Sundering itself is the primary thing we want to know.
Sure, people can say, "well, this is what they told us they'd do" and also "it's probably going to be explained in more detail in the 5E FRCG" but it's a completely backwards way of telling the overall metastory. Does Anne Frank's story mean more if you have zero understanding of WWII, or is it simply confusing in isolation?
And to tell the truth, I'm not sure we're ever going to get more detail, much less any in-depth detail, about the reasons behind the Sundering - or the Spellplague for that matter.
WotC is asking people to eat up a giant helping of cheese, not just for the Sundering but also the Spellplague, then sweep it all under the rug without explanations. Some people might be fine with essentially ignoring this giant buffet of cheese overlaying the Realms but I think it strongly - and negatively - impacts the richness and depth of lore that the Realms used to be known for.
If I wanted lore cheese that affected planar cosmology, the nature of magic, and history backwards and forwards, I wouldn't be running a serious, politics-heavy, history-rich world. Now, I'm bound to run into spray cheese everywhere.
In my opinion, a full, real, honest-to-goodness reset to 1E or even 3E would have been better than this soft cheese reset that ends up damaging a lot of the good things that were introduced in 2E and 3E.
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| Aldrick |
Posted - 05 Jun 2014 : 21:55:12
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
You have a point, but because the novels came first, and Wizards did build up all this hype about them, there should have been more "Sunderng elements" in them, IMO. Oh, things were hinted at or alluded to, but, to me at least, Wizards did not follow through with that hype. Perhaps that will change when the campaign actually comes out, but if they wanted to reassure us they were doing something great, they should have provided more of that in the novels. Just my opinion.
I don't have much problem with that, because I get the feeling that when we see the 5E FRCG there will be significant changes to the Realms making it similar to how it was in the original.
We might have a "WTF?" moment - wondering how it could have happened. The answer to all of it will be: "The Sundering did it."
So, I'm pretty much expecting something like a reboot without the reboot. That's my expectation at the moment.
I have the feeling that when I pick up the 5E FRCG that it's going to feel like I picked up the Old Grey Box, but with more polish and shine.
Again, that's my current expectation. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 05 Jun 2014 : 21:31:36
You have a point, but because the novels came first, and Wizards did build up all this hype about them, there should have been more "Sunderng elements" in them, IMO. Oh, things were hinted at or alluded to, but, to me at least, Wizards did not follow through with that hype. Perhaps that will change when the campaign actually comes out, but if they wanted to reassure us they were doing something great, they should have provided more of that in the novels. Just my opinion. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 05 Jun 2014 : 19:38:45
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Like, is this real? To me it sounds like telling people ''hey we're resetting some widely disliked stuff, but we want to pretend we are not''.
I agree with everything you wrote, Irannan, but what I quoted above - that was always my understood point of the Sundering. They didn't want to do a reboot or anything. They wanted to move forward in the canon. They wanted to fix things. So this was the only tool they had... a massive RSE to end all RSE's to fix the stuff all the other RSE's broke.
I get the feeling that when I pick up the 5E FRCS, that I'm going to be looking at a Realms in the future that looks and feels like the Realms did pre-Time of Troubles, which is around the time things started to jump the shark.
Maybe it's a good and fantastic product. I don't know. We'll see. My decision was never going to be based off of the Sundering Novels or events, but of actually holding the 5E FRCS in my hands. All of my judgments about the Realms will be made then.
This. As long as people keep repeating "Sundering", I'll keep answering "FRCS". Let us agree - whether you liked it or not, the product that really changed the way the Realms were presented and what it was wasn't any novel with an RSE or the killing of one major character here and there. It was the 4e FRCG. Campaign guides serve that purpose, they are the cornerstones. We can mine the Sundering for hints of what the 5e Realms will be, but we won't know until a new campaign guide is done.
Which brings us to another point. What is the Sundering, from a real-world point-of-view? You can call it a gimmick or "filler", though those are loaded words. What it seems to me, and I mean that as "stuff that was outright told to us fans and seem to right in our faces" is that people got together and figured "we'll make a 5e FRCS, and it will be good" (basically). However, that takes 1-2 years. So that brings them a little problem. What do we do while the thing isn't done? We're not going to stop selling everything and just keep saying the new edition will rock, people will get sick of it, and we make no money. So someone comes in and says "well, we can make a series of novels and some tied-in adventures set in the transition, that'll build some excitement for the new product and we don't need to show people everything right away, we can actually even test the market a bit..." So we get the Sundering.
Speculation, of course, but based and supported on things that were said on interview after interview, and pretty much everything I heard from the Sundering products until now. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 05 Jun 2014 : 10:54:02
Ooh and i just noticed my title changed to Master of Realmslore.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 05 Jun 2014 : 10:53:10
I'm still so upset with 4e that 5e will just add fuel to the fire (unless of course they do a starwars and pretend that everything after 1372 DR didnt actually happen |
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