| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 29 Apr 2014 : 17:03:08
Just wondering, do you think Osiris and all those will come back and fight Sset again? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 17:51:40
From a post by Erin Evans:
quote:
I would also point out "The Sundering" the novel series and the marketing campaign have ended. But the stories are not finished. For myself I can say Fire in the Blood, which came out this week!, shows Cormyr's place in the wars there, the book I'm currently working on, (Ashes of the Tyrants) and the last book (tentatively, King of Dust, will show Tymanther/Unther, and the entirety of that series arc will follow the Nine Hells and what happens with Asmodeus. I won't get to the post-Sundering era in this series, in fact. I know Salvatore and Denning are still within the Sundering with their next few books as well.
(Emphasis mine)
So, it seems that Mulhorand/Unther may even get featured in a novel (I know that it doesn't explictly say Mulhorand, but why would they return Unther and then not Mulhorand??)
|
| Gyor |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 13:20:45
Well Mazica is confirmed to be back, it actually gets mentioned in the core 5e books. So if that's back Mulhorand and Unther are likely back. |
| Lucifer_Drake |
Posted - 02 Feb 2015 : 22:04:30
I'm going back to 1e FR as a base so Mulhorand, Unther & Chessenta are not based on RW pantheons. I'm doing my own thing with those lands and their religions. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 16 Jan 2015 : 15:14:13
The Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons were plenty realmsified to me. There are realms only explanations for the wierd animal heads, Set's really bizarre portfolio selection (and snake affiliation).
Why realmsify the name of a god when the names of all the people in region would then be different.
Not that im advocating them bringing back the old empires. They should just do away with 1470s altogether and pretend it never happened.
I brought back Enlil, joined the pantheons together and brought Gilgeam back to unlife as a psycho god of the dead. Having Set, Gilgeam, Tiamat and Sebek in one pantheon as the evil gods is quite scary, especially Set, he is one bad mutha.
Loads of realmsian fun to be had in the old empires region, its surprisingly rich with plot hooks for development |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Jan 2015 : 14:02:01
I would rather a 'Realmsified' version of the Pharonic pantheon. A couple of the minor ones could be the same actual god with a name change, but others should be FR gods with an alias (so for a sun god, it would actually be Amaunator, as Amaun-Ra, or some such).
In fact, they shouldn't specifically state "this god is really this god" - they should just hint at it, to let DMs decide for themselves. So a handful would be local (pantheon-specific) powers, and others would be more (FR) universal powers with a cultural twist tacked on. They should (almost*) ALL have culture-specific names, regardless if they are truly a god from RW myth, an FR god with an alias, or even some setting-specific local deity.
Mystra is a tricky one - because of the way the setting is designed, all of Realmspace should have one goddess of magic, but it seems a bit weird for cultures who have never even met to all worship the same deity. I guess the 'different name for different groups' works for her, but she should be one of the very few (ONLY?) gods that the lore states is specifically the same goddess as elsewhere.
*I say 'almost' because sometimes this is okay - as cultures meet, some new god might get absorbed, so someone like Valkur could be found down in Zakhara (and they would even believe he originated from there).
EDIT: And a unified pantheon for the 'Old Empires'. You could have one (Unther?) focus on a specific deity, and the other another (or all of them together), but I don't want to see separate (RW) pantheons for them ever again. If Gilgeam 'arises anew', even give him a better (FR) name, like Gilthaross, or some-such. So new Unther might have a madman (or actual demigod) have all attention focused on HIM (state-controlled religion), and the other be more liberal about who can worship who within their pantheon (although you could still imagine a powerful and corrupt priesthood, just have them at odds with the emperor/pharoah/whatever). |
| Gyor |
Posted - 16 Jan 2015 : 01:28:26
Yeah I want Mulhorand and Unther back too, they're too important and tied to the Realms history and setting to disappear forever. |
| Nod_Hero |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 03:32:00
It's interesting that the Egyptian deities were part of the alternate list of the 5e PH. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 May 2014 : 17:34:52
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
high imaskar= new halruua
Which that adds another piece possibly for a rebirthed Thay in exile as well, if some Halruaans (possibly even some who were involved with the founding of Thay and then forced out?) were to join that group.
So... refugee Netherse originally became Halruaans, only then, for refugee Halruaans to eventually become rebirthed Thayvians?
That has an odd ring of cool to it, I think. 
throw in that the original red wizard movement started with renegade halruaans.... could there still have been an underground sect of Halruaans from the original sect of "red wizards", and its that group that joins up with these (after all it seems like the original Halruaans that aided the Mulans maybe got chased out.... so if these rebirthed Thayans are less racist (but no less power hungry), their viewpoints might coincide more again). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 May 2014 : 03:03:02
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
high imaskar= new halruua
Which that adds another piece possibly for a rebirthed Thay in exile as well, if some Halruaans (possibly even some who were involved with the founding of Thay and then forced out?) were to join that group.
So... refugee Netherse originally became Halruaans, only then, for refugee Halruaans to eventually become rebirthed Thayvians?
That has an odd ring of cool to it, I think. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 23:44:51
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
high imaskar= new halruua
Which that adds another piece possibly for a rebirthed Thay in exile as well, if some Halruaans (possibly even some who were involved with the founding of Thay and then forced out?) were to join that group. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 19:13:01
I have Faiths and avatars... great book, got the one for the demi humans too |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 13:21:20
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
adding alt names would increase the word count and something else would get cut.
Too true. Yea, I think adding optional names would be tacky. People would be asking "well, is this the deity's name or not?" And the answer would be "if you want it to be" and that wouldn't make anyone happy.
Either give them Realmsian names or don't, but either way they need some personality. Not because I want to see a bunch more novels about gods; I don't. But the personality of the gods shapes the personality and tenets of the church, and that is important for DMs and players.
As a 2nd edition player I am assuming you are familiar with FAITHS AND AVATARS and POWERS AND PANTHEONS. These books gave alot of personality to the churches/worshiping of the gods. This work alone made many of the shared earth gods unique and distinct from their counterparts on earth.
WOTC essentially nullified that fantastic resource, I would say even in 3rd edition. The 3rd edition equivalent was more a deities and demigods than a fully descriptive text of the gods and their worshipers.
I would argue that in realms lore the personalities of the gods followers are (were?) well illustrated. In 3rd edition lack of knowledge of that resource existing to many new players and maybe even some writers was a cause for the apparent lack of personality of the gods.
Faiths and Avatars is one of the most valuable CULTURAL resources for the realms.
I love RA Salvatore books. I think it would resonate better if Drizzt had the title Hawk of the Lady, which is granted to the favored followers of Mielikki. I understand it is not always time efficient to research these sources, but I really wish WOTC would have required authors using gods or followers of gods to read the material in FAITHS AND AVATARS.
It would have done alot to bringing the personality into the Novels, instead of reserving it for the Forgotten Realms Lore Hounds. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 04:45:43
high imaskar= new halruua |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 02:03:11
Oh, and further on the idea of the High Imaskari culture being displace and joining up with what I call "the United Tharchions of the Shaar"... it makes for an interesting thing, because they would be allying with a group that wasn't exactly fond of Mulhorand, but at the same time they also aren't exactly fond of Old Thay either. So, you'd have Mulhorand hating "Old" Thay and "New-twisted" Thay... then "New-twisted" Thay hates Mulhorand and "Old Thay".... and "Old Thay" hates "New-Twisted" Thay and Mulhorand. Then throw in the shadovar.... aka ex-Netherese... possibly throwing in with "Old Thay".... and the Imaskari who probably had their own enmity with the ancient Netheril..... The East becomes a bunch of back-stabbing countries. Make Mulhorand a little more Imperial minded and aggressive, but not overtly evil, and it could be very interesting. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 01:55:54
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I don't have anything against getting inspiration from RW stuff. I just think that importing it without changing it lowers the originality of the setting. It's lazy design, and in this particular case (the Egyptian pantheon) I think that it contributed to Mulhorand being removed from the Realms in 4e. Mulhorand itself could come back, if WotC decides to do that, but it's unlikely because what would they do with the new Deep Imaskari culture? The Egyptian pantheon, imo, is probably gone for good.
It may be gone for good. I hope it isn't. As to the new Deep Imaskari / High Imaskari culture.... personally, I like the idea that they get displaced and are forced to join up with another surrounding magocracy. That magocracy may be Thay. That magocracy may be the Stygia like "United tharchions of the Shaar" that I've discussed where displaced Thayans form a new country in the south eastern realms. Or they may go into the Raurin desert/ plains of purple dust and try to start a new civilization.... or they may carve something out of the hordelands or Zakhara. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 00:50:38
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
ah bahamut and tiamat........ those two did not come from the rw deities of the same name.
those two came from greyahwk.
Yeah, I know. They just lifted the names, which is my point. They were not trying to say: "This is Bahamut and Tiamat from the real world." Tyr is very similar. There is some loose hypothetical Norse connections, but in terms of Realms canon he's a pretty separate and distinctive deity.
When I talk about Tyr in the Realms, I don't think about Tyr of Norse Mythology. Similarly, when I talk about Tiamat or Bahamut, I don't think about their real world counterparts either. Though, admittedly, with Unther in the Realms the whole Tiamat issue gets unnecessarily muddled.
If they just did what Ateth did in his home Realms - renaming the deities - a lot of the issues Mulhorand and Unther faced could have been greatly lessened. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 23:30:19
ah bahamut and tiamat........ those two did not come from the rw deities of the same name.
those two came from greyahwk.
here is why, tiamat iirc was a serpent style in appearance( from its description on wikipedia, a naga might be a bettere description) and bahamut was a giant fish and in dnd tiamat is a 5 headed dragon and bahamut is a platinum dragon |
| Ateth Istarlin |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 23:24:40
I hope that they do bring back both Mulhorand & Unther, as they are my favourite areas of the Realms. However, I don't mind if the gods are renamed as I have already done that myself. For instance, Horus-Re has been renamed Aten-Orus while Set has become Aphosis. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 23:10:32
I've stated in the past that in my Realms Thay conquered Mulhorand. In part because I wanted Thay to be larger and a more serious threat than portrayed in canon, but also because I didn't like the deities of Mulhorand.
I largely agree with some of the others who posted. Mulhorand isn't anywhere in the league of some place like Maztica or Kara-Tur. There isn't a lot about Mulhorand (or Unther) that made them complete rip-off's of their real world inspirations. However, using the deities names EXACTLY made things feel heavy handed.
It just made it feel like it didn't fit that well into the Realms, when compared to everything else. Had the names been changed, and a few very minor tweaks to the lore of Mulhorand and Unther been given - the problems wouldn't have existed.
It's a bit like having an entire culture that worships Zeus and the deities of Greek Mythology, or a culture that worships Odin and the deities of Norse Mythology. It doesn't mesh as well with the setting.
One of the reasons some of the other deities 'work' for the setting such as Loviatar, Mielikki, Oghma, and Ilmater is because they aren't as well known - in some cases to the point of being really obscure.
Tyr is somewhat borderline, but I think the name is generic enough that it could easily be passed off as just a similarly named but different deity. It's similar to knowing lots of people named John, Sam, or Adam. These names are common names that are popular. Similarly the same can be said for Tyr. There also aren't huge giant arrows pointing to his Norse origin, nor is there an attempt to make it clear that he was originally a Norse deity. (Though there are clear and subtle hints that he is indeed Tyr from Norse mythology.)
So, I think Tyr - as well as Tiamat and Bahamut - are good examples of deities that use names from real world mythologies, but differ enough to be distinct and unique in the setting.
The problem with the deities of Mulhorand is that they're straight up copies. There is no attempt to really integrate them into the Realms the same way Tyr, Tiamat, and Bahamut were integrated into the Realms.
Although, I do think some deities which are really well known - such as Zeus and Odin - don't fit in the Realms, no matter how much integration is done to them. I felt similarly about Tyche, which is why I like how she was split into Tymora and Beshaba. That's another example of a straight up real world port handled well in the Realms.
Here is the general rule of thumb I use when looking at interloper deities and cultures: Does it feel jarring? Does it seem to fit and mesh well with the setting?
If the answer to the first one is yes, or the second answer no - then something is wrong. Some tweaks and changes have to be made to smooth things over. Adding a Zeus or Odin would be jarring. They'd need name changes. Adding Tyr from Norse Mythology could be jarring, but by de-emphasizing his Norse origin and striving to really integrate him into the setting that jarring issue disappears. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 20:35:04
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
adding alt names would increase the word count and something else would get cut.
Too true. Yea, I think adding optional names would be tacky. People would be asking "well, is this the deity's name or not?" And the answer would be "if you want it to be" and that wouldn't make anyone happy.
Either give them Realmsian names or don't, but either way they need some personality. Not because I want to see a bunch more novels about gods; I don't. But the personality of the gods shapes the personality and tenets of the church, and that is important for DMs and players.
|
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 20:24:46
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
More absurd is the fact that, really, it was the notion that Mulhorand was a complete rip-off... but outside of the deities and a few thematic elements, Mulhorand didn't exactly overlay on top of Ancient Egypt particularly cleanly.
Exactly. Beyond having a pharaoh and being a theocracy, Mulhorandi society has little resemblance to Egypt. (At least, according to my understanding of Mulhorand and Egypt.) But the gods just had to be consolidated and unified. So... poof. 
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
an organic part of the world through trade, war, cultural osmosis, and so on, as opposed to something completely foreign and thematically clashing against everything else nearby just plopped on there for no reason.
...like Tymanther and Deep Imaskar, ayup. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 19:41:26
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Why not just keep the official names as-is and provide alternative names for DMs to use if they want? Loviatar doesn't work for you? Use Jaana. I think, at this point (after 2+ decades), that changing the names wholesale would be a bad move. Some may like it, some may not mind it, but I think most would be put off by it.
that goes without saying
but adding alt names would increase the word count and something else would get cut. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 18:26:00
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
It's lazy design, and in this particular case (the Egyptian pantheon) I think that it contributed to Mulhorand being removed from the Realms in 4e.
-Absolutely. More absurd is the fact that, really, it was the notion that Mulhorand was a complete rip-off (closer to say, Maztica) rather than an inspired pastiche. Plenty of words have been dedicated to coaxing out the real-world inspirations of other nations, both obvious and subtle. I can understand Mulhorand, Unther, and Chessenta (ignoring the more obvious wholesale continents of Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, and Osse) being under perhaps a little more scrutiny, because their inspirations were more overt- and in many cases literal and direct, as written into the lore- but outside of the deities and a few thematic elements, Mulhorand didn't exactly overlay on top of Ancient Egypt particularly cleanly. Maybe some are/were put off by those thematic elements more so than others, but enough had certainly been written about Mulhorand up until late 2008 or whenever it was to not only distinguish it from Egypt, but to make it an organic part of the world through trade, war, cultural osmosis, and so on, as opposed to something completely foreign and thematically clashing against everything else nearby just plopped on there for no reason. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 14:42:57
I loved the original 2e Mulhorand and Unther too. The Old Empires has been the center of my Realms gaming ever since 1990. I'm just stating, first, my guess that WotC will not bring the Egyptian pantheon back into the Realms; the reason for this guess is that they put a lot of work into getting rid of that pantheon. Then I went off on tangents.
I don't have anything against getting inspiration from RW stuff. I just think that importing it without changing it lowers the originality of the setting. It's lazy design, and in this particular case (the Egyptian pantheon) I think that it contributed to Mulhorand being removed from the Realms in 4e. Mulhorand itself could come back, if WotC decides to do that, but it's unlikely because what would they do with the new Deep Imaskari culture? The Egyptian pantheon, imo, is probably gone for good.
And I didn't mean to start a petition or anything for changing the names of the gods who didn't get renamed before the gray box was published. I'm just saying I wouldn't mind if they finally got around to naming and developing them for 5e.
Sorry if I've come off like I hate the Old Empires... that would be the furthest thing from the truth. I didn't even mean to get up on a soap box in this thread. Just seems to happen that way lately.
Edited for clarity. We still haven't seen what Ed originally intended for Mulhorand and Unther, but we do know that the published Old Empires is not the same as it is in his home game. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 13:05:18
Why not just keep the official names as-is and provide alternative names for DMs to use if they want? Loviatar doesn't work for you? Use Jaana. I think, at this point (after 2+ decades), that changing the names wholesale would be a bad move. Some may like it, some may not mind it, but I think most would be put off by it. |
| deserk |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 09:43:16
Personally I loved Unther and Mulhorand as they were, and their gods. They were both incredibly distinct cultures. And I never thought of them as neither Babylonia (or any other Mesopotamian state) or Egypt, but as countries with their own identity and history.
I kinda hate this idea that because something is derived from RW history that it somehow doesn't deserve a place in the Realms. FR is supposed to be a sandbox campaign setting with many different themes. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 03:36:07
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
If the deity is bringing followers with it to Realmspace, it would make sense that it retains its name, as its followers are most familiar with that name.
Fair enough, though bringing a bunch of Earthlings into Imaskar was one of a few gigantic problems with the story. If you accept the premise that Horus and company came to Toril because their worshipers preceded them, then you're adopting the Egyptian pantheon and that path has led WotC to destroy Mulhorand. If you take a side path and make the manifestations permanent residents of Toril, which they should be, and then it seems inevitable (to me) that they've been given Imaskari names.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
If it does not bring any with it, and all of its followers in Realmspace are new, there still isn't too much of an impetus to come up with a new brand new identity.
I don't see it as an issue of the god coming up with a new identity. To me, it's something which the god is given by its new worshipers. The god either accepts or rejects it, and in doing so determines its fate in the setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
A lack of a change, to me, is more about trying to emphasize the multispheric nature of deities and the connections to Earth, rather than a sudden lack of imagination or inability to come up with original names and terms.
This is a fair point, but taking into account the vast vocabulary of new words and expressions Ed has created for the Realms it seems to me that the people of Faerūn are consistent with human nature... we each interpret everything into our own cultural contexts. Even here on Earth, with monotheism being a nearly global phenomenon, we can't all agree on what that one god's name is, let alone agree on his/her/its nature, personality, or priorities.
Regardless of Quetzalcoatl being the same entity, with perhaps the same agenda in every world, he will have different names in different cultures. A Maztican culture on Toril might be similar enough to a Native American culture on Earth that the god manifests itself to both, but the differing languages of the tribes and their neighbors will result in pronouncing and spelling his name differently. If the god won't adapt to its followers, then it loses them... hence the long list of "minor" deities in Egyptian history which we're only discovering as we unearth journals and only-one-of-its-kind monuments.
And it's not a sudden thing. As sfdragon points out, it's been waiting for a solution for 20 years. Though I disagree about it being too late to change it now. If the 5e Campaign Guide says Jaana is Loviatar and Iineri is Mielikki, I'll be better-than-fine with that. (thanks EBoN and your neverending mediocre supply of similar names.) 4e pulled Zehir out of a hat. Renaming a couple of longstanding deities to give them some Realmsian distinction is much more welcome... especially if they're also given some personality in novels.
Just my take. Opinions obviously vary. 
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 02:16:42
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Guess I'm in the minority here, I liked Mulhorand/Unther as they were to begin with. Not saying things can't be altered to make them more unique (which I support), I'm just saying that part of ruining the published Realms for me included ridding the setting of the gods that were established in the region to begin with. I will say that if Wizbro allows Ed to put his vision of the region into play they likely wouldn't regret the decision.
Guess I'm in the minority too, because I agree with you. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 01:39:55
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I'm not saying that having Quetzalcoatl in your setting is not okay. I'm saying give him a new name. A better example is Bactrian camels. They're named for a region in what is now Afghanistan; obviously they need a different name in the Realms.
With two exceptions, using Earth's names for stuff demonstrates a lack of creativity.
-While I agree with a lot of what you said, this part is fairly easily reconciled as the deity simply wanting to retain its own name, and doesn't necessarily have to reflect a lack of creativity or anything else. Some immigrants change their names to better fit their new country (Ling Ye becomes Lindsey, Jeong becomes John, and so on), others don't. If the deity is bringing followers with it to Realmspace, it would make sense that it retains its name, as its followers are most familiar with that name. If it does not bring any with it, and all of its followers in Realmspace are new, there still isn't too much of an impetus to come up with a new brand new identity. A lack of a change, to me, is more about trying to emphasize the multispheric nature of deities and the connections to Earth, rather than a sudden lack of imagination or inability to come up with original names and terms. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 30 Apr 2014 : 23:36:13
umm I did forget, it did list several home planes back in the 2e deity books........
still, alot of people would not know that they came from RW myth, unless they went and looked.
I don't know what the RW Mieliki's personality is.. all I do know is what of her realms one.
but also know, they have been in there for more than 20 years. Too late to change it nopw without killing them off and replacing them and well just look at 4e, how did that work out?? |
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