| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 16:28:15
I'm away from most of my source material right now, and pondering an idea... The living spells from Eber-whatsit were a nifty idea. I seem to recall a canon reference to living spells in the Realms, as a result of the Spellplague, but I'm drawing a blank on where that was.
Does anyone recall this reference? Can anyone provide the source? |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 14:38:58
Well having gone through a lot of netherese stuff recently, the netherese were discouraged from investigating the east by the terraseer who pointed them towards the savage frontier instead.
The netherese also regarded all other humans as lesser than themselves and so not worth interaction beyond taking what they want.
However this only applies to individual enclaves as they were the only ones capable of contacting anyone outside the Netheril basin (and they really werent unified). The nation of seventon was geographically isolated and didnt extend beyond the basin so could never encounter anyone else. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 14:27:09
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, and it would appear the "Ring of Gray Flames" predates Eberron... so you could say Eberron stole the idea from the realms and not the other way around.
I'd not say that. The idea of free-willed constructs has been around for a while, so having just magical ones is just a variation on a theme. Eber-whatsit's living spells, though, aren't the same thing, since they are existing, regular spells that hang around and do their own thing.
literally from Ring of Gray Flames: " free-willed magical constructs that seem to be spells given life". So, spells given life. They're called spell wards because that's the name the people in Rashemen chose, but its evident that other than possibly "type" they are the same thing as living spells.
Living spells in Eber-whatsit are spells that are in the PHB, are cast normally, but then persist. So you could have a cloudkill living spell, or a Tenser's floating disk living spell, or something like that. They are cast normally, but take on a life of their own, and this is not something the caster planned for.
The Ring of Grey Flames bit does not say anything about these spells being normal spells, nor does it say that the spells' free will wasn't a desired and planned-for result. I'm not saying that these are not spells giving life, but they are not the living spells of Eber-whatsit, and they are not what I specifically needed when I posed the question.
It's kinda like comparing golems to warforged. Sure, they are both constructs, but there are some very serious differences between them. And if you're looking for a free-willed construct, you don't look at golems. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 14:24:24
Oh, and on the idea on Ring of Gray Flames idea, since wychlarans cannot take crafting feats... perhaps a rogue group of Vremyonni are learning to be "spell sovereigns" prestige class (introduced dragon #357) based on studying old Raumathari lore. Perhaps said Vremyonni are also in conflict from Ghaunadar worshipping drow from Undrek'Thoz (possibly the fungi enriched city of Drezz'Lynur).
Being that the Raumathari were known as battlemages, it may be that many of the living spells that they were crafting aren't all that dangerous too. In fact, it would make perfect sense if they made "living bull's strength" spells and "living shield" spells and "living stoneskin" spells and "living ironguard" spells that simply followed their troops into battle and periodically hit their troops by rolling over them. However, they may have also engineered particularly effective battleground living spells such as the ideas I put in the thread a week or so back (relisting some of the ideas below... hoping people will present their own variations).
NOTE: for my notes below, wherever I put awaken ooze (from a dragon article).... awaken construct (from spell compendium) would work as well
"Sphere of Ultimate Destruction" living spell
"Sphere of Ultimate Destruction" living spell w/ invisible spell metamagic enhancement
any damage spell with empower or maximize added proves easily and quickly interesting... less threat to upper level parties who can probably make the saves, but deadly to lower level ones.
any kind of fire spell with the searing spell & fiery spell metamagic enhancements from sandstorm
a spell that does negative energy damage and has both the enervate spell and fell animate metamagic enhancements from libris mortis (and thus, it does 50% extra damage to living, heals undead, and creates zombies from anyone it kills)
a healing spell with the energize metamagic enhancement from libris mortis (such that it does +50% extra damage to undead). Having this be an awakened living spell with the awaken ooze spell could make for an interesting friendly encounter where this spell is being attacked by say wraiths or something
any kind of cold spell with the piercing cold from Frostburn and/or Lord of the Uttercold from CArcane metamagic enhancements
Chain spell applied to targeted living spells would be interesting and have wide uses.
Area effect living spells with widen on bursts or enlarge on cones AND explosive spell (CArcane)would prove an interesting way to keep pushing players away from the living spell.
a living spell that has invisible spell (cityscape) and delay spell (CArcane) metamagic enhancements could be interesting as it slides on up to a party, drops 4 versions of its spell and then leaves around the corner the round before they all go off.
A non-lethal substitution metamagically enhanced living spell can be an interesting way to subdue a party. This could also be interesting for a "living spell with a conscience" that's been awakened with awaken ooze.
Another interesting "friendly living spell" use would be some area effect spell with sculpt spell metamagic feat, and have it be awakened with the awaken ooze spell.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 14:07:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, and it would appear the "Ring of Gray Flames" predates Eberron... so you could say Eberron stole the idea from the realms and not the other way around.
I'd not say that. The idea of free-willed constructs has been around for a while, so having just magical ones is just a variation on a theme. Eber-whatsit's living spells, though, aren't the same thing, since they are existing, regular spells that hang around and do their own thing.
literally from Ring of Gray Flames: " free-willed magical constructs that seem to be spells given life". So, spells given life. They're called spell wards because that's the name the people in Rashemen chose, but its evident that other than possibly "type" they are the same thing as living spells.
In fact, I think it would be interesting if these particular "spell wards" are in fact something slightly different.... but with the caveat that they are built after the Raumathari perhaps ran into actual living spells and studied them. What if the ones in Rashemen (not the ones in Waterdeep mind you) are in fact "living constructs" instead of "oozes". Perhaps they require gathering oozes to use as the base material upon which to construct, and certain types of oozes work best with certain types of spells (i.e. white puddings for cold magic, etc...).
This makes it possible that the Raumathari were in fact crafting specialized "spell wards" combining certain feats, etc.... Just as a thought, perhaps Karsus' "heavy magic" is based on some similar principles and perhaps one culture stole from the other. This brings things back to the way they should be to a degree. The Netherese and the Narfellians and the Raumathari and Jhaamdathi all should have known about and interacted with each other |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 05:45:27
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, and it would appear the "Ring of Gray Flames" predates Eberron... so you could say Eberron stole the idea from the realms and not the other way around.
I'd not say that. The idea of free-willed constructs has been around for a while, so having just magical ones is just a variation on a theme. Eber-whatsit's living spells, though, aren't the same thing, since they are existing, regular spells that hang around and do their own thing. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 05:42:46
Not to mention that one of Halaster's former apprentices is now a living wish spell... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 05:38:23
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just wanted to verify that living spells were Realms canon. 
Yep, living spells are Realms canon, other than the Waterdeep ones over which rules Jhesiyra Kestellharp (herself transformed into a living spell) there is this reference in Unapproachable East page 134 in the Ring of Gray Flames write up: "The countryside surrounding the towers is roamed by spell wards, free-willed magical constructs that seem to be spells given life."
It's a good point, but I wanted something that was explicitly listed as a living spell -- the quote you reference could be taken to refer to something unique to that area, that resembles but isn't the same as the Eber-whatsit living spells.
I specifically needed to have an existing, in the books spell that was doing its own thing, disconnected from its caster. That's why I was focused on the explicit reference. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 00:04:54
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just wanted to verify that living spells were Realms canon.
Yep, living spells are Realms canon, other than the Waterdeep ones over which rules Jhesiyra Kestellharp (herself transformed into a living spell) there is this reference in Unapproachable East page 134 in the Ring of Gray Flames write up: "The countryside surrounding the towers is roamed by spell wards, free-willed magical constructs that seem to be spells given life."
Yeah, and it would appear the "Ring of Gray Flames" predates Eberron... so you could say Eberron stole the idea from the realms and not the other way around. Note: the reference above does call them spell wards and makes reference that they are "free-willed magical constructs". A living spell is an ooze. It does draw into question whether living spells are some kind of construct or an ooze (or whether there are different types). I must confess that this "type" discussion can bring into some unusual factors that I hadn't noted until recently (i.e. my formative ideas on living spells were created when I read UA and I never actively caught the change in type to ooze until recently).
BTW, discussed some of this about 2 weeks back here along with some possible interesting twists for living spells. I'd find it interesting if there were something "birthing" living spells at the Ring of Gray Flames. For instance, being oozes, they may be able to procreate either by absorbing magical material or by "mating" somehow:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18830
Also, definite reference in the city of splendors boxed set.
This from 3rd edition city of splendors.
"In the Year of the Gauntlet (1369 DR), during Halaster’s
Higharvestide, a horde of goblins, orcs, and ogres rushed up the
Falling Stair and broke into the citadel. Although the Guard
contingent prevailed, what seemed at fi rst to be an easy victory
has proven anything but such. In the wake of the goblinoid horde
came a fl ood of living spellsMM3. These lingering remnants of
Halaster’s spells have somehow taken on sentience and refused
to dissipate. As their numbers have continued to grow, the
Guard has been forced to abandon the Citadel, sealing off the
passage into Castle Waterdeep. Harpers’ Hold is still accessible
to Those Who Harp, but many leading Harpers are growing
concerned that this refuge might soon have to be abandoned as
well. Although the Guard refuses to allow adventurers into the
Citadel of the Bloody Hand to investigate, several groups have
done so by making the perilous trek through Undermountain
and then up the Falling Stair. Those explorers who have returned
and spoken of their experience have vanished soon thereafter,
possibly abducted by agents of the Shadow Thieves seeking word
of their lost redoubt." |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 21:27:49
Wasn't there a mention somewhere that Halruaa was full of living spells as a result of the Spellplague? Or was that just musing in one of the threads here at CK? |
| Demzer |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 19:37:53
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just wanted to verify that living spells were Realms canon.
Yep, living spells are Realms canon, other than the Waterdeep ones over which rules Jhesiyra Kestellharp (herself transformed into a living spell) there is this reference in Unapproachable East page 134 in the Ring of Gray Flames write up: "The countryside surrounding the towers is roamed by spell wards, free-willed magical constructs that seem to be spells given life." |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 17:34:32
Good call! Not really detailed, though they were mentioned. The Hand That Sings is now described as a living spell, and a bunch of them popped up after Halaster's Higharvestide and now infest the Citadel of the Bloody Hand. That's all from the 3E book City of Splendors: Waterdeep.
I was sure the reference to them was in Waterdeep, but I was thinking it was a Spellplague thing -- and I don't have pdfs of the 4E material. But for the earlier stuff, I've got legal pdfs of all the Waterdeep books, and everything for Undermountain but that Core-branded Expedition book.
Thank you for that quick assist -- I just wanted to verify that living spells were Realms canon. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 16:42:25
Werent living spells detailed in the 3rd edition waterdeep sourcebook for the top level of undermountain |
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