| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 26 Jan 2014 : 20:08:25
Do you think Cadderly Bonaduce is the most powerful cleric ever? I mean in game terms, he could cast any cleric spell on the fly, on top of all of his other abilities.
Discuss. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 07 Dec 2020 : 16:10:57
op question is too vague. Do you mean most powerful cleric in general or most powerful of the chosen.
I would wonder who is the most powerful cleric outside of any chosen |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 07 Dec 2020 : 06:07:39
The answer is, "We have woefully insufficient information, but Cadderly almost certainly is not the most powerful cleric ever."
When we use the word "ever", that implies one heck of a blank check. We would have to reckon back to the Blue Age before Abeir-Toril (not Toril) froze over. We do not even reliably know what races thrived during those times, save perhaps the aboleth.
Proceeding thousands of years later into the Days of Thunder with saruukh, batrachi and aeree clerics. Sarrukh even without class levels were powerful individuals. Then came the Tearfall and the rise of giants and dragons. Dragons were far more religious in those days and they mean serious business.
Then came the elves, and Elven High Magic was not exclusively an arcane discipline. The gate that led the gold elves from Tintageer to Toril was opened and sustained by Bonnalurie, a priestess of Sehanine Moonbow. And, no, Cadderly is not ever going to cast Elven High Magic.
Cadderly "Danny" Bonaduce is powerful, but I am not convinced he is at the top of the clerical food chain.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Do you think Cadderly Bonaduce is the most powerful cleric ever? I mean in game terms, he could cast any cleric spell on the fly, on top of all of his other abilities.
Discuss.
|
| Delnyn |
Posted - 07 Dec 2020 : 05:33:10
In 2E Seven Sisters book, yes.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Wasn't Qilue like 16th level?
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| Delnyn |
Posted - 07 Dec 2020 : 05:27:27
And a Chosen of Eilistraee at the same time.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Qilué Veladorn, in addition to being a powerful priestess, was a Chosen of Mystra.
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| GRYPHON |
Posted - 07 Dec 2020 : 02:07:39
I would also go with Fzoul Chembryl. |
| Nilus Reynard |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 09:47:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Qilué Veladorn, in addition to being a powerful priestess, was a Chosen of Mystra.
Exactly what I was thinking. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 01 Feb 2014 : 06:53:58
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Deneir believes that the metatext contains all information, but that doesn't have to be true and even if it is, Deneir is only studying it so he could only provide information through his song if he allready aquired it by himself.
But even then its very hard for mortals to comprehend the information given by the song of deneir and many of his priest died while diving to deep into it, so Cadderly could die too if he tries to hard.
As said before its very hard to believe that a lesser deity can give his follower far more power then major ones can.
We have canon to support the idea that the chosen of Lesser deities can be just as powerful as the chosen of Greater deities. Consider Paul Kemp's books. Mask was never a Greater deity, but he had 5 Chosen, and the most powerful of them (Erevis Cale) proved equal in power to Rivalen (Chosen of Shar and 2,000 year old archmage).
Also, Matron Yvonnel Baenre was as powerful as any cleric we've seen, and Lolth was only an Intermediate deity while Yvonnel was alive. Obould (Chosen of Gruumsh), on the other hand, wasn't very powerful considering Gruumsh's status as a Greater deity. Pretty much every Chosen we've seen would defeat Obould.
We've even seen examples (like with Mask and Mystra) where gods have several Chosen, who vary considerably in power level. And herein lies the answer to our question. Mask made his first Chosen (Kesson Rel) a demigod. But since Kesson went insane and became a giant headache, Mask never gave another Chosen that much power.
So I think it depends on the deity. Some deities are more trusting than others, so they might be willing to give more power. Or if deities have particularly urgent designs in the mortal realm, they might give their followers more power to carry out their plans. |
| Light |
Posted - 30 Jan 2014 : 15:23:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
For example, Cadderly may suddenly find himself in battle with the evil wizard Malbad. Malbad throws his custom spell Power Word: F U! at Cadderly.
Assuming Cadderly has instantaneous access to all knowledge (and I don't know that his access is instantaneous), he may recognize the spell and know that the only way to survive it is to be wearing the Warm Boot of Frobozz. But that knowledge does him no good if he doesn't have the Boot right then, because the spell is already en route and will do many rather unpleasant things to him when it hits in 2 seconds.
 10/10 |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 30 Jan 2014 : 14:51:57
Deneir believes that the metatext contains all information, but that doesn't have to be true and even if it is, Deneir is only studying it so he could only provide information through his song if he allready aquired it by himself.
But even then its very hard for mortals to comprehend the information given by the song of deneir and many of his priest died while diving to deep into it, so Cadderly could die too if he tries to hard.
As said before its very hard to believe that a lesser deity can give his follower far more power then major ones can. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 30 Jan 2014 : 14:05:54
There is a bit of a contradiction as to how cadderly accesses his powers. I guess it could be relative. Cadderly uses the song of deneir to cast his spells. In theory he should just be able to find the right spell and cast it fairly quickly (as in the cleric books). Maybe the more complicated spells are harder to find in the song? I don't like that explanation though. I just put it down to bob making an error.
If any priest has access to virtually every spell then he must surely rank amongst the very top of his creed. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Jan 2014 : 12:31:42
Earlier in this scroll, it stated Cadderly could cast his spells as a spontaneous caster. Later, I'm seeing people say he had to prepare his spells. I admit to only reading the first 3 books, so in those Cadderly wasn't all that high level. |
| Madpig |
Posted - 30 Jan 2014 : 06:06:07
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Well since knowledge is power and Cadderly had access to an potentially infinite amount of knowledge I would say he is certainly one of the most versatile and powerful priests that I have ever read about.
Potentially infinite amount.
In Servant of the Shard, Cadderly bluff Kimmuriel at the end by allowing him a brief glimpse of his mind.
When K withdraws, Cadderly gulps and thanks Deneir that the drow bought it because "He had not prepared any spells for fighting Drow that day, only dragons" and he knows he would have lost.
Thats the quote I was searching for earlier in this scroll. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 30 Jan 2014 : 01:37:53
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Well since knowledge is power and Cadderly had access to an potentially infinite amount of knowledge I would say he is certainly one of the most versatile and powerful priests that I have ever read about.
Potentially infinite amount.
In Servant of the Shard, Cadderly bluff Kimmuriel at the end by allowing him a brief glimpse of his mind.
When K withdraws, Cadderly gulps and thanks Deneir that the drow bought it because "He had not prepared any spells for fighting Drow that day, only dragons" and he knows he would have lost.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jan 2014 : 16:38:18
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Well since knowledge is power and Cadderly had access to an potentially infinite amount of knowledge I would say he is certainly one of the most versatile and powerful priests that I have ever read about.
Having access to something is not the same as possessing it. Even with access to all knowledge, there is only so much the mind can handle and process.
Thats true but just having access to pertinent information and spells during a battle can change its outcome. Also it can save your life when you are injured lost in some strangle pace or poisoned etc.
Having access to this sort of information is what makes Cadderly such a versatile and powerful cleric.
I'll not argue that, but as I said, access to information isn't the same as having it... And it doesn't guarantee being able to act on it.
For example, Cadderly may suddenly find himself in battle with the evil wizard Malbad. Malbad throws his custom spell Power Word: F U! at Cadderly.
Assuming Cadderly has instantaneous access to all knowledge (and I don't know that his access is instantaneous), he may recognize the spell and know that the only way to survive it is to be wearing the Warm Boot of Frobozz. But that knowledge does him no good if he doesn't have the Boot right then, because the spell is already en route and will do many rather unpleasant things to him when it hits in 2 seconds.
If the access to the knowledge isn't instantaneous, he's just as screwed.
Access to knowledge can be useful, but it's not necessarily going to be usable when needed. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 29 Jan 2014 : 12:14:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Well since knowledge is power and Cadderly had access to an potentially infinite amount of knowledge I would say he is certainly one of the most versatile and powerful priests that I have ever read about.
Having access to something is not the same as possessing it. Even with access to all knowledge, there is only so much the mind can handle and process.
Thats true but just having access to pertinent information and spells during a battle can change its outcome. Also it can save your life when you are injured lost in some strangle pace or poisoned etc.
Having access to this sort of information is what makes Cadderly such a versatile and powerful cleric. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jan 2014 : 12:49:36
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Well since knowledge is power and Cadderly had access to an potentially infinite amount of knowledge I would say he is certainly one of the most versatile and powerful priests that I have ever read about.
Having access to something is not the same as possessing it. Even with access to all knowledge, there is only so much the mind can handle and process. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 28 Jan 2014 : 12:42:00
Well since knowledge is power and Cadderly had access to an potentially infinite amount of knowledge I would say he is certainly one of the most versatile and powerful priests that I have ever read about. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 28 Jan 2014 : 06:44:46
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
Cadderly didn't shrink the dragon.he stole the dragon's age. And that was a spell in the second eddition tome of magic source book.
Divine magic or Wizardly? |
| jerrod |
Posted - 28 Jan 2014 : 05:01:40
Cadderly didn't shrink the dragon.he stole the dragon's age. And that was a spell in the second eddition tome of magic source book. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 28 Jan 2014 : 01:16:25
There was either in 1st or 2nd, or was it BD&D that a high level Cleric could cast arcane spells (up to maybe level 5 or 5 magic user spells). I just though could not find a quick reference to it. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 28 Jan 2014 : 01:11:02
True. I would say a Miracle spell but that didn't exist in 2e. Perhaps he can cast arcane spells then. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 28 Jan 2014 : 00:47:39
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Actually, Oghma is the god of knowledge, Deneir is the god of glyphs and literacy (but is one of the 'gods of knowledge' under Oghma).
I think, from a canon point of view, Cadderly could cast every cleric/druid spell (at least those not unique to other faiths). I don't recall him casting any wizard spells in the novels (let alone psionics). He has a powerful mind, is clearly (IMO) a Chosen of Deneir, and is certainly ONE of the most powerful priests ever...but there are contenders for THE most powerful priest ever. I don't think Cadderly is a clear-cut owner of that position.
What about the spel he casted to Shrink the Dragon? I don't recall any Cleric spell that could do that.... |
| Seravin |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 21:15:18
You'd think that more Chosen would be priests.
I always liked Salvarad, the highest ranking priest in the Cult of the Dragon who got spells from Cyric and Shar. He was level 20 back in 2nd edition days and quoted as being "one of the most powerful forces for evil in the Dragonreach" back in the Forgotten Realms Adventures book; I wonder what became of him.
On topic, Cadderly was powerful not the most powerful priest in the Forgotten Realms.
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| Mirtek |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 20:46:46
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I mean in game terms,
As in his game stats?
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
he could cast any cleric spell on the fly, on top of all of his other abilities.
Yet by his game stats that means only 80 levels of spells, that gives him an edge in high level slots, but less than ordinary clerics combined 5th - 7th level slots
That's what Heroes Lorebook said about his official 2e game stats. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 19:25:48
Ah. I never got around to reading Windwalker. For some reason I never got far into Tangled Webs. My copies of Tangled Webs and Windwalker are around here somewhere...I really need a decent set of shelves. Books shouldn't be kept in drawers. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 18:39:04
Quenthel was the Yochlol that Shakti met in the Abyss in Elaine Cunningham's novel Windwalker. And then returned from the Abyss with her to Menzoberranzan and House Baenre, in a soul bubble. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 18:08:53
I imagine the really powerful priets become divine proxys of some sort like the ones you got in Planescape - tasked with dealing with emissaries of enemy gods and fiends/celestials on the most hostile of planes.
As for Yochlols, Quenthel never became one. She studied at the feet of Lolth for a while but I don't ever recall reading that she became a yochlol. Yochlols were allegedly succubi who were appropriated from other demon lords and transformed by Lolth for her own purposes. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 17:22:43
Makes sense, I remember Quenthel Baenre was made into a Yochlol after Drizzt gutted her in Siege of Darkness. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 16:29:39
I seem to recall Ed addressing that question Eilserus and saying that most priests who gain that much power are 'taken' by their deity for work beyond the mortal world. Basically, the deity sees this powerful agent of their's and says 'I have more important work for you than tending my flock...let such endeavors rest on other shoulders now.' Said priest is then used in whatever fashion the god needs. Mayhaps they are transformed into another creature (I believe the yochlol are former Llothite priestesses of some power, for instance) or are made into holy artifacts, there is no limit but imagination. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 16:18:15
One thing I've always been curious about, we have people like the Simbul and the Srinshee (who is supposedly 54th level if i recall right or maybe that's the Simbul, I honestly forget), but we haven't ever seen a priest higher than 30th I believe. I wonder if Ed has some characters squirreled away that addresses this. Or, do divine casters usually not get that high of a level for some reason we don't yet know?
I do remember the 2E Underdark book referencing Lolth generally doesn't let her priests get higher than 22nd level or so, rewarding them with either divine advancement or destruction around that power level. Maybe it holds the same with other deities? |
