| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 16:55:26
I was just kind of looking at the Maztica boxed set for a second and thinking about Pluma (feather) and Hishna (talon) magics. In general, I found their spell lists pretty limited and I was wondering if there wasn't already a 3rd edition rough equivalent that would fit these styles of magic better. For instance, I see "Hishna" or talon magic which bestows the power of beasts as better represented by the Totemist from Magic of Incarnum. It would be even better represented by a mix of totemist and divine spellcasting from the ranger spell list (so thinking just a new prestig class for totemists who also gains divine spells from the ranger spell list, and must worship Zaltec, Maztican god of war).
I'm not quite sure what would make the best "mix" for the Pluma magic. All of the magic is "nature oriented", but I wouldn't say open up the druid spells, because a lot of those are combat oriented. The spells also aren't combat buffs in general. Anyone know of a more proper fit already created in 3e? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 05 Feb 2014 : 06:14:59
I consider Incarnum book a load of derp, but will agree on the rest: there's no good reason to handle artisans' spellcasting as Vancian wizards. They have different flavours and aren't supposed to advance as "standard" wizards anyway.
Thus, start with Adept or Bard, throw out all irrelevant features, insert relevant ones.
As to the spells, perhaps the knights' totem-based armor should be required as focus for some of their spells, especially magic vestment.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just wanted to get a feel for the difference between them (which seems to be very little, aside from one being a bit of a grinch).
Your point is that they were the same, my point is that we do not need two of the same thing. Thus, my suggestion to adapt one to a more defensive role. A priest isn't exactly a healer anymore regardless - they deal decent damage, can wear armor and take hits (like a tank), and can do magic besides. Thats not really a bad trade-off, making them into fighter-priests (clerics).
Or, let's convert abjurers to clerics and evokers to warlocks now? The same arguments would be appliable about as much. 
The roles are already very different, no point to stretch mechanical sides. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Jan 2014 : 21:02:36
thank you. This doesn't really touch on Pluma and Hishna "casters" so much as it gives a specific pluma and hishna spell list for the Eagle and Jaguar Knight to choose from. However, that being said, this makes making a prestige class for "rogue" pluma and hishna users a lot easier if you replace the "rogue" with totemist and give them bonus spellcasting as an arcanist but their limited spell list being those of either pluma or hishna as listed (which I'm sure the spell list could be improved some). This makes them still a viable combatant. Hell, might also work with scouts, rogues, OR totemists. I do note that their spell list includes not only greater magic weapon but also magic vestment, which for some is somewhat of a holy grail. |
| Razz |
Posted - 18 Jan 2014 : 18:24:54
Don't know if anyone's mentioned this but there's a Dragon Magazine article that talks about Hishna and Pluma magic and has a Jaguar Knight and Eagle Knight prestige class for 3.5 Edition. I think it was issue #315 |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 03:16:27
I only read the fluff for them, not the crunchy bits (and very little of that). I just wanted to get a feel for the difference between them (which seems to be very little, aside from one being a bit of a grinch).
Your point is that they were the same, my point is that we do not need two of the same thing. Thus, my suggestion to adapt one to a more defensive role. A priest isn't exactly a healer anymore regardless - they deal decent damage, can wear armor and take hits (like a tank), and can do magic besides. Thats not really a bad trade-off, making them into fighter-priests (clerics).
The 2e material was too derivative, and was trying to copy real-word analogs, but if we want them to work (either HB or 5e), then they need to be a little sexier. If folks are gonna use Maztica/Abeir at all, then it has to be a challenge; PCs can't just walk all over the natives the way the golden legion did. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 00:54:00
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, Hishna was the 'darker' one, from what I just (re)read.
Different flavours, same status in every way.
quote:
It seems to have also been the better one, encounter-wise.
Thats why i was thinking a traditional (from the original sources) Pluma mage should be an NPC, unless it gets an overhaul.
I don't know what you mean under "encounter-wise", but the first spells of Pluma give substantial enhancements to ranged weapons. Oh, and the plumaweaver gets +2 to bows from the start. Which was a big deal in in AD&D2, especially as it's multiplied by RoF, also from level 1. Level 3 spells gives flight, which obviously neatly complements ranged attacks.
Conversely, hishnashaper gets backstab. Both advance as a rogue in most statistics.
Knights are close too - Eagle Knight gets to learn the second spell earlier, Jaguar Knight shapeshifts earlier, different prerequisites, that's about it.
quote:
I'm talking more of a 1e/2e style cleric, with protection and healing magic (and who the hell wants to play one of those in this day-and-age?)
And what healing have to do with it? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 23:00:46
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I did resize Jakandor properly on that mock-up I did. Thats the large island you see between Maztica and Nyambe.
As for Larakond and Maztica, I realize they are NOT the same exact place, but there are enough similarities - points of land jutting out in the same places, etc - so that this could be what the same landmass might look lie 35,000 years later, being on two very different worlds, with different weather, goethermal activity, 'magical catastrophes', etc.
I just found it VERY interesting the the Glaur Barrens (around Lake Glaur) almost fell out in the same exact spot as that other lake where the settlement of Tukan is. Now, take into account that the 4e map of Returned Abeir is just as accurate as the 4e map of Faerūn - and possibly worse - its very easy to see how both time and the qualty of those maps could have distorted things enough for them to look similar but still different. It even looks like Lopango (lower Maztica) got 'broken off' Returned Abeir at some point.
Anyhow, I am amalgaming-it-up right now. It doesn't lok like the lore from one is going to mess with the lore form the other nearly as much as I had always thought it would. That massive mountain range is a bit of a problem, but we could always loose that (or make it smaller).
I realize Jakandor was never meant to be on Toril, but since its an orphan (and one worth finding a home for), I figure we should inherit it. After all, 'The Sundering' is gonna do a lot of strange things. I also feel the same way about Nentir Vale - we should definitely get that as well. No reason to just let some of the juiciest, wayward D&D bits of other editions just wind-up in the junk pile.
I actually wish we could mine all the other old settings, but in the long run its probably better to keep some things separate (even though The Sundering is the perfect opportunity to turn Toril into the 'Nerath' mash-up setting 4e was shooting for). For now, I'll just dip into those sources that never had a setting of their own.
And you know the PERFECT placement for Jakandor? That large island at the end of that chain that trails off SW from Zakhara toward Katashaka. Its far-enough away from everything else for it to still be its own thing. They could always tweak that chain so that it hooks north a bit, bringing that island closer to Maztica (perhaps a bit too close to Nimbral, though.
Hmmm, I agree, that does make a much better place for Jakandor if you mean the island right at the very tip of that chain. I don't see this one shown on the Al-Qadim maps, so it shouldn't be documented either. Its history and Imaskar's history and the isle of Sahu (isle of the Necromancer Kings from Complete book of Necromancers) all seem to mesh together somewhat well. The whole Knorr's getting there following the spellplague could have been a matter of being magically displaced or sped up during the six days of storms. Same rough shape, same rough orientation, same rough size, and if they just extended it out just a little bit towards the small continent that some have labeled "tabaxiland" it would make it remote enough to make it isolated. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 22:39:38
Just reading the history of the Charonti to see if it could fit. Assuming that years are standard for them except for the last 150 for whatever reason (or just assuming that they typo'd the 150 and it should be 100), I'll put some faerunian dates to things.
4335 of the Hramnethes Dynasty (~-4600 DR assuming that the 5 thousand years mentioned below is a rough estimate... or ~-5355 DR if we assume the plagues on Imaskar and this group were the same magically spread plague AND at the same time), expedition launched by Ihnkaheser XXIII with airships to discover the rest of the world. They discover "shadow people" or bestial men.... basically, their term for savage humans. They send their peoples out to try and find any other enlightened cultures to share knowledge with. Could this culture and Imaskar have come in contact?
5350 of the Hramnethes Dynasty(~-3615 DR assuming that the 5 thousand years mentioned below is a rough estimate... possibly -4370 DR) magic fails, Society falls apart, magically suspended things drop, wasting plague spread by magical items, portals, etc... (noting this wasting plague... could it be a delayed transference of the Imaskari Plague of -4370 DR? Noting that the plague is magical and sleeps. Perhaps the Charonti were invading Imaskari ruins?.... if instead that rough 5 thousand years were an exact 4245 this could be the same year)
after 5350 of the Hramnethes Dynasty, ~5 thousand years pass, magelords take up residence in the ruins, occasionally re-awakening the Wasting Plague
During this time, Crown Princess, Nefti the Apostate turned from the gods and ruled from the ruins of Alchatay. She gathered thinkers and philosophers to herself. She ruled peacefully as did her line for 5 thousand years.
~150 years ago, the Knorr appeared, but noting that for some odd reason the island of Jakandor's years are 10 months of 5 weeks of 5 days (so 250 days in a year). This equates to roughly 102 Faerunian years.
If there were some weird reason that the seasons simply passed faster in Jakandor during the years between spellplague and Sundering, then this might fit perfectly with the Spellplague and Sundering (i.e. 1385 and 1487).
Interestingly, their culture reveres death but wishes to extend peace and light to the savages around them. Their guiding principles are supposedly reason, justice and compassion. Definitely not a Thayan attitude.
Also, noting that IF the -5355 DR supposition is made for the correlation of 4335 of the Hramnethes Dynasty, that puts the start of the Hramnethes Dynasty as -9690 DR. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 21:53:43
I did resize Jakandor properly on that mock-up I did. Thats the large island you see between Maztica and Nyambe.
As for Larakond and Maztica, I realize they are NOT the same exact place, but there are enough similarities - points of land jutting out in the same places, etc - so that this could be what the same landmass might look lie 35,000 years later, being on two very different worlds, with different weather, goethermal activity, 'magical catastrophes', etc.
I just found it VERY interesting the the Glaur Barrens (around Lake Glaur) almost fell out in the same exact spot as that other lake where the settlement of Tukan is. Now, take into account that the 4e map of Returned Abeir is just as accurate as the 4e map of Faerūn - and possibly worse - its very easy to see how both time and the qualty of those maps could have distorted things enough for them to look similar but still different. It even looks like Lopango (lower Maztica) got 'broken off' Returned Abeir at some point.
Anyhow, I am amalgaming-it-up right now. It doesn't lok like the lore from one is going to mess with the lore form the other nearly as much as I had always thought it would. That massive mountain range is a bit of a problem, but we could always loose that (or make it smaller).
I realize Jakandor was never meant to be on Toril, but since its an orphan (and one worth finding a home for), I figure we should inherit it. After all, 'The Sundering' is gonna do a lot of strange things. I also feel the same way about Nentir Vale - we should definitely get that as well. No reason to just let some of the juiciest, wayward D&D bits of other editions just wind-up in the junk pile.
I actually wish we could mine all the other old settings, but in the long run its probably better to keep some things separate (even though The Sundering is the perfect opportunity to turn Toril into the 'Nerath' mash-up setting 4e was shooting for). For now, I'll just dip into those sources that never had a setting of their own.
And you know the PERFECT placement for Jakandor? That large island at the end of that chain that trails off SW from Zakhara toward Katashaka. Its far-enough away from everything else for it to still be its own thing. They could always tweak that chain so that it hooks north a bit, bringing that island closer to Maztica (perhaps a bit too close to Nimbral, though. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 21:20:14
Just to get a rough idea of its size, I did the same thing to measure Jakandor... roughly 800 miles E/W by 370'ish N/S. So, if you took evermeet, turned it on its side, it'd be about 1.8 times as long and 1.5 times as wide. So, definitely smaller than the "unknown lands" shown to the west of "Anchorome". In theory though, if not every portion of "Anchorome" transferred over, this could be a large "island" that was part of the submerged continent. It could have been in the far western side, while the Knorr were on the East. It could be roughly the distance between say Waterdeep and Vaasa. If "Anchorome" were split into multiple large islands (say 15 or so) and then maybe a hundred of smaller islands (each say 60 miles by 60 miles... or 1/6 the size of Cormyr), with only say 60 miles between them and their neighbor islands (so that Anchorome becomes half land and half water)... then you create what I think Ed always dreamed of with Anchorome. Each of the small islands would be big enough for maybe 2 decent cities (or one large one) and a scattering of smaller villages. The 15 or so big islands would be big enough to be a true country to itself, bigger even than Cormyr (some might hold 3 or four countries the size of Cormyr). Some of these islands may be very desert like just because there is no lake and the water flows out to the sea, so the people may construct ponds to retain fresh water for their community.
Oh well, I've gotten way off topic, but you let things take you where they will. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 20:05:08
nah, I did the same thing. They have a roughly similar shape in one section, but that's about it. Sizewise, it doesn't fit right, nor does the interior land match up right. Returned Abeir doesn't appear to be Maztica with different people.
On the Jakandor thing where they're supposed to be separate isolated world:
We know that Maztica went away, presumably to Abeir. We have no idea about the upper "continent" which I'm calling a grouping of islands over a very shallow sea and which at this point we're all calling Anchorome. For that matter, we don't know about the "unknown lands" near those either. But, perhaps this landmass also shifted over to Abeir.
So, lets look at the history from this "Jakandor: Isle of War" History. At some point in the relatively recent past (which could be as much as 100 years), the Knorr people were at war with another society that they had been trading with. Said society was more civilized and was trying to extend their laws upon the Knorr (in the back of my head right now... I'm kind of picturing Baldur's Gate's colony... not a deal breaker... could be another group of Northmen, and that might be better). The two societies broke out in war. The Knorr take to their longships upon hearing that their goddess "the war mother" would wipe the world clean of all that displeased her. They head "north" to attack the supply lines of this other society, and they plan to stay at sea for the winter and let the warriors of the enemy society starved themselves out in the Knorr's captured villages. While they are at sea and preparing to assault the enemy supply lines, some kind of crazy ass storm happens for 6 days and nights. When it stops, all the Knorr ships are all still together, but the enemy ships AND ALL LAND has disappeared. Sounds to me like they were at sea when the spellplague happened, and they're left adrift to find a new landing. Eventually, they find an island (Jakandor) and they land. The island has some kind of culture named the Charonti that sounds very similar to Thay (they have undead servitors and consider that normal, they appear to be into head shaving and tattoos, they're magically powerful and the Addakainen <colleges of wizardry separated by schools of magic> for the basis of their societal structure). Their Addakainen also contain the "Colleges of Thought" which exploring "the disciplines of wisdom and spiritual inquiry". It should be noted that this Charonti culture is still recovering from some plague that happened "centuries ago". The two Knorr and Charonti cultures end up going to war.
So, so far, its looking like you could drop this into the realms with little work. Maybe place it as a few islands that were say between "Anchorome" and the "unknown lands" west of it. They landed on the island after the spellplague. Then, the Sundering happens and Maztica and Anchorome come back.... but the people of Jakandor know nothing about it (or maybe they do after some time). When Maztica comes back, you can have a world of changes happen there too (as discussed in previous thread last year). Hell, this Charonti civilization may even hail from the "unknown lands" west of "Anchorome". Gonna read up more on their history and see if it works. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 18:30:31
Con't... {split for brevity}
So I wanted to put the cold regions far enough north to make sense, and the jungle-like southern lands closer to Maztica (and the equator). I realize that those mountains could be Himalaya (Yehimal) High, which could account for that frozen land even in warmer climbs, but still, a land of frost giants so close to a tropical region just rubs me the wrong way.
That was a quick thing i just threw together to see how some of it would work. I highly-contested, island-strewn (pirate) setting between two major oceans (and thus a major trade-route) and continents would make for one helluva great addition for FR campaigns. I picture dozens of 'Realms Powers' vying for control of the region. It could even becaome a nw sub-setting, similar to what they did with the Red Steel (Wild Coast) region of Mystara (OD&D). If fans want a more 'advanced', high-seas pirate campaign (with primitive firearms), then thats a greater place for that, off-camera, where it won't harm the main setting. And yet, most of the same groups could be involved in that region,with colonies by the major nations, and lots of intrigue with groups like the Zhentarrim and Red Wizards. And we could even change-it-up; have folks who normally wouldn't work together being forced to, due to the ever-changing political environment.
The big problem with Jakandor is that it is meant to be isolated, and stand-alone. Although the climate and culture(s) is perfect for that region, the back-story isn't, and would need some tweaking. However, we could use the Spellplague/Sundering to explain it instead. What if the island came from 'elsewhere'? That would explain why no-one's interacted with them in all that time. The campaign (as laid-out in the 3 supplements) has to do with the recent arrival of 'northmen invaders' - that could be our FR Northmen, having only stumbled upon this 'new land'.
Jakandor really should have been more north, and a bit further away. I'll play with it some more today. What i really want them to do is over-haul both, and blend them together. Keep Anchorome as the place where FR powers are trying-out colonies, and have the 'Mazabeir' area the place where there is contention between the original natives and the arrivals from Abeir. If you look at the map of Maztica and the map of RA, the have the same shape, and they are the same size! I doubt that was a coincidence. It looks like the same place, that went in two different directions (on the two sister-worlds).
EDIT: I just super-imposed the returned Abeir map (the canon one) over the Maztica map... ummmm... once it was re-sized properly, it was an AMAZINGLY good fit. 
I always realized the outlines were very similar, but some of the terrain even lines-up! I may have just stumbled upon something.... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 18:10:34
As for the fast mock-up I did: I realize I made Returned Abeir way bigger then it should have been, but I wanted to stretch it t fit into Anchorome's old footprint. When I did that - as I said - it fit amazingly well. I'd still prefer THIS sort of approach - thats a map I started (with a completely different art style) a long time ago, but never finished (because of the fire). I was shoe-horning Larakond into Anchorome, without altering Anchorome's canon outline over-much. That is much prettier, IMO.
And BTW, I discussed the (official) Returned Abeir map with Ed (in public, in his thread), and it is about as accurate as the other 4e campaign map.... which is to say, not very much. They gave it the same treatment - just a bare-bones outline with some placements of stuff that may or may not be precisely where they are shown. How did Rich Baker put it... "more of an 'abstract representation' of the true map"? Something like that - most of the threads were deleted long ago, so I can't possibly find the exact words he used.
Anyhow, my point is that the 4e map was pretty awful, and Ed was disappointed in certain aspects of it, although thats not exactly how he phrased it (being the penultimate gentleman that he is). He basically said that thats not precisely how he pictured it all being - "for example, I pictured MUCH more forest/land on the eastern side of the continent". Not an exact quote, but close enough, I can assure you. That means they made it too geometrically uniform just to fit on a page in the book - it shouldn't have been a near-perfect horseshoe; the right half should have been much bigger, and more angular.
But lets throw all of that out, since published material trump Ed anyway (them's the rules). Thus, the map we got IS the canon one (despite the fact that every wiki and FR site on Earth uses mine instead  ). We have jungle in the south, and 'frozen wastes' in the north.
Just HOW SMALL IS ABEIR? 
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 15:36:25
Holy Cr@p, Markustay, I never knew a thing about this Jakandor you mention above. However, I remembered the title, Jakandor: island of war. I just did admittedly minor research on it, and the similarity to what I was just describing is freaking eerie. The fact that they say the Knorrman are a mix of native American and celtic sounds kind of Viking'ish. The idea that they're land is recently flooded and they've landed on this island just sounds like a people that survived the collapse of their continent.
This is what one dude (somebody named Pete Whalley) says about it
"I only got the first book, Jakandor:Island of War. It introduced the Knorrman (they've got the K-now how!) barbarians, who were the only survivors of a great flood which they believed had wiped out the rest of the world. Eventually they land on the island of Jakandor- what they take for the promised land, only to find it occupied by decadent necromancers calling themselves the Charonti. Seeing their presence as a trial set by the gods, the Knorrman go to war, intending on proving themselves worthy of ruling over the last solid land in the world."
It was ok as a brief mini-campaign, but didn't live up to my conan-fuelled hopes. The Knorrman were a blend of celtic and native american tradtions, the Charonti were a dying pseudo-Egyptian civilisation who'd turned to necromancy as a way of preserving what life they had left. I'd gone in hoping for conan vs. vile zombie masters, and what I got while cool was a world away from that.
On the upside the Knorrman did have nifty totem-golems they animated through divine magic as giant warmech type things. Including one which was essentially a battle ready wicker man." |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 15:06:30
Back to converting the classes. The Jaguar Knight and Eagle Knight were kits for fighters. What I see doing there is just making a 3 level prestige class with a capstone ability of being able to shapechange into a Jaguar or Eagle (both having worshipping a certain god requirement). They should also get their own spell progression, spontaneous spells that must be known, with spells of up to 3rd lvl (a very fast progression 1st lvl spells at 1st lvl, 2nd at 2nd, 3rd at 3rd). The jaguar knights should use the ranger spell list. The Eagle Knights should use the Shugenja spell list, but only air, earth, water, and all (i.e. minus fire). You could throw in a couple other abilities to be learned that seem to fit the general idea and make the classes more different. You could also throw in a few converted spells of Pluma/Hishna.
The Pluma and Hishna wielders weren't mage or priest kits. Instead, they were rogue kits. So, the totemist is using a rogue's BAB and its all about buffing themselves with the power of beasts. Maybe these Hishna wielders are a 10 level prestige class that advances their meldshaping and has its own divine spell progression using prepared ranger spells (gaining up to 4th lvl ranger spells). Also, the prestige class Totem Ragers from magic of incarnum would seem to fit this culture and may be an alternative path for those who could be Hishna wielders.
The Pluma wielders would probably best be represented by the shaman from Oriental Adventures, with the animal companion piece more following the rules of a druid. They might have a Pluma wielder prestige class that adds a lot of special pluma spells to their spell list, so making the entry into said prestige class heavily fit the shaman would be key (having access to a shaman domain, an animal companion, and ranks in knowledge(spirits) would seem to fit). This would make the Pluma wielders the better divine casters in this world compared to all the others listed already (not saying they're good casters... just that they're the highest level casters).
Other more aggressive tribes may have spirit shamans instead of shamans, which gives them a different spell list, one more conducive to combat. The difference here may be drawn along deific lines (maybe certain deities favor regular shamans, and others spirit shamans). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 13:31:27
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You know, after playing with world map just now, I have to wonder why all those 4e-adds (like the Dragonborn) weren't dumped into places like Osse. Now we have redundant lore for the same regions, and still no lore for much of the map.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I really need to do a mock-up of that.
DONE.
*meh* could have been better, but something along those lines.
I kept nearly all of the Maztica map intact (we lost a little off the north that didn't matter), added-in Nyambe and Jakandor (that large island), and merged my Returned Abeir map with Anchorme (it actually lined-up fairly well... I was surprised. The other large islands are all off the canon (FRIA) map.
Markustay, please note, I like your maps and strongly appreciate your abilities in that (you are a lot better than me in that), but in this one instance, I think you went about it a little quick. I didn't think returned Abeir was real big, so I did some basic (really basic) measurements. I come out that returned abeir might be a tidbit narrower East/West than Maztica, but its only about 2/3 of Maztica's height N/S. So, you're drawing has returned abeir about 3 times its size (or roughly 9 times the square mileage). I'll explain why I cared so much after I give you my references.
I'm looking at the Returned Abeir Map, I copied it into paint, and then cut and paste a line of the measurement sticks along each side. Its comes out to 7.75 of those 120 mile measurement sticks on each side. That comes out to 930 miles on both the x and y axis.
I'm then comparing this to the map of Evermeet, where I did the same thing. Evermeet came out to 8.75 North/South by 5 E/W of its 50 mile measurements. So, roughly 440 miles N/S by 250 E/W.
I then for a second comparison piece took out my old 1E maps and did a rough eyeball measurement using the overlay to figure out roughly how big 930 miles by 930 miles would be, and its a little bigger than the lands of intrigue (Amn, Tethyr and Calimshan).
What I get from that is that Returned Abeir should be roughly twice times as long N/S as Evermeet and almost 4 times as wide E/W, or a little bigger than the lands of intrigue. I then pulled someone's scan of the Maztica map from the web, I captured the edges of Evermeet and I pasted it multiple times over the drawing of Maztica.
Comparing that to the section of map that you did showing returned abeir overlaid where Anchorome was (and the "Scholar's View of Abeir-Toril", and I think you've made it way too big. Roughly, returned abeir should be about half the size of Maztica.
However, you and I were both thinking very similar ideas for what we'd like to see happen. Essentially, my viewpoint is that Ed has always said that Anchorome was a collection of islands. I'm not sure how Anchorome suddenly became this unmapped continent on top of Maztica (and connected by Land to it). However, what if Anchorome IS a huge continent, but it also IS a collection of islands. In essence, what if Anchorome is a continent that collapsed, possibly due to too much underdark activity. Therefore, you have all these "islands" separated by a very shallow "ocean" that may only be say 40 to 100 feet deep at its deepest points (bearing in mind, our oceans are like 14,000 feet deep on average).... a very dangerous ocean to navigate for any vessel that has a deep draft, filled with dangerous reefs.
From orbit, if the ocean floor in this area isn't white sand but rather the earth/rock that sank, the shadow of the earth underneath MAY be hard to separate from the islands. This, combined with old lore from the seafarers that came to Ruathym (who may have been there when it was ABOVE water) may have led people to believe that it was this big continent above water.
So, where am I going with all this? What if "Returned Abeir" is actually "Returned Toril"? It transferred over to Abeir a long time ago, got inhabited by people from Abeir, and so when the sundering happens it stays. Then throw in that its surrounded by hundreds (possibly thousands) of small islands filled with small collections of Northmen with a very healthy sea knowledge whenever the sundering returns them back. You've instantly got a dragon kingdom/island surrounded by hundreds/thousands of Northman settlements.... which sounds like a bunch of places that could use adventurers to come to their aid.
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| Mapolq |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 13:29:43
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't know which way they will go with it in 5e, but I have an idea... BOTH. There are two Evermeets, and depending upon when your arrive (or even how), you may see the Fearie version, or the empty, mundane one. That makes it more like one of those 'faery isles' out of folklore. Basically, the magic is still there, but its broken. Maybe someday it can be 'fixed', but in the meantim, it flickers back-and-forth (and for an added twist, maybe not always during the same time period, which would make it even more fey-ish).
I just realized what thread I was in... how'd we get on Evermeet?
I didn't want to quip with an off-topic comment, but I need to add my voice to this idea. Brilliant! Less like Valinor and more borrowing from old legends like Valinor did in part.
(Also agreed with Markus' assessment of the other topics) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 23:42:20
You know, after playing with world map just now, I have to wonder why all those 4e-adds (like the Dragonborn) weren't dumped into places like Osse. Now we have redundant lore for the same regions, and still no lore for much of the map.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I really need to do a mock-up of that.
DONE.
*meh* could have been better, but something along those lines.
I kept nearly all of the Maztica map intact (we lost a little off the north that didn't matter), added-in Nyambe and Jakandor (that large island), and merged my Returned Abeir map with Anchorme (it actually lined-up fairly well... I was surprised. The other large islands are all off the canon (FRIA) map. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 22:51:34
I think the way its been explained (and/or 'hinted at') in numerous sources is that the Elven Sundering 'got out of control' for some strange reason, and also 'reached backwards in time' to create Evermeet during a much earlier period in Toril's history.
The easiest conclusion to draw is that they somehow 'tapped into' Ao's Sundering, and steered a tiny part of it, in order to create Evermeet (which had repercussions of its own - some say the destruction of Tintageer, also 'in the past'). So the elves didn't rally creat Evermeet at all - the merely borrowed the power 9from The Sundering) to allow them to borrow some of Faerie (Tintageer, unfortunately?) and anchor it to Toril.
When magic ran amok during the Spellplague, that piece of magic unraveled, and Evermeet went back to where it belonged. At least, that portion of it that was whisked-away from Faerie. What we were left with was the blasted wastelend created by Ao Sundering (which was altered by their ritual). Basically they steered The Sundering to create the location, and then super-imposed a part of Faerie over it, like a skin.
I don't know which way they will go with it in 5e, but I have an idea... BOTH. There are two Evermeets, and depending upon when your arrive (or even how), you may see the Fearie version, or the empty, mundane one. That makes it more like one of those 'faery isles' out of folklore. Basically, the magic is still there, but its broken. Maybe someday it can be 'fixed', but in the meantim, it flickers back-and-forth (and for an added twist, maybe not always during the same time period, which would make it even more fey-ish).
I just realized what thread I was in... how'd we get on Evermeet?
While looking for some decent art for this thread, I remember the old Jakndor line of products (a mini-setting with only 3 modules). It was pretty darn good, IIRC, and would fit well just off of Maztica (or whatever Maztica/RA become in 5e). Since the 'northmen' occupy the eastern half of the island, its actually a VERY good fit, and the lore on the other half is very creative (non-evil necromancers). That would make a great edition to that region, fits really well, and allows them to recycle an old product (and for all we know, Jakandor may have been on Abeir).
They could take the land between Katashaka and Anchorome and turn it into several vast islands, and have all the lore from Maztica and Retruned Abeir fairly intact, and even throw Jakandor into it the soup just for fun. That would give us a huge straight between two continents filled with islands, ripe for all sorts of campaigns (can anyone say Razor Coast? And we could have a great elting pot there - both Kara-Tur (Shou) and Zakhara would want to use the region to trade (you'd have to pass through all of that to get from one ocean to the other).
I really need to do a mock-up of that.
Oh, and lets get Nyambe in there, where Katashaka is. Its not the most interesting setting in the world, but its a thousand times better then just a name on an empty continent. I'd prefer Xendrik, but thats never gonna happen. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 22:24:57
Well it might be a few years but I just thought of a reason justifying the swap of land masses.
So way back when Ao separated abeir toril into two worlds it was all one land called faerun.
Laothkund was joined to maztica which was joined to what we know as faerun.
Laothkund was the edge of the continent, maztica was in the middle and faerun was on the other side.
Ao magics away laothkund just after the ice moon and all those dragon eggs land all over the planet (that way we have dragons in laothkund.
Then the elves arrive and do their stupid sundering and that splits maztica and faerun apart with evermeet in the middle. (That way we have elves in maztica)
Then mystryl dies and laothkund comes back but maztica is already in its place thanks to the elves so the two continents swap and hey presto no more real world ripoffs thay I really hate.
More on topic. My players use the 3rd edition spells for none combat uses all the time. The fire spells for a druid I see as being used for natures vengeance (which is scary) and for dark druids who dont care how they eradicate civilization, just so long as its gone, a fire scorched scrubland still contains nature after alll. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 20:52:48
Wish I had seen this sooner to respond but I will just echo MTs post above. He's pretty much dead on methinks.
Dazzler: Please provide your mixed lore for the region when the time comes. I'm all for blending as much as possible into Toril (which is why I'm pretty much sold on what MT has provided for his Misbegotten Realms so far). |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 20:52:33
Jaguarers knights or whatever they are called. Been forever since I read the helm books, are pretty much rangers that take the ACF to wildshape
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Ranger_Variant
Pluma feathers, dealt much more with healing, light , sort of that mystic sitting in the temple, and "lower" level magic. You will be leaning towards druid, or a cleric with healing/sun domains, maybe even a cloistered cleric, if you want more of a village elder feel.
I forgot what the last one was called, but basically worshiped that snake, and had the albino drow manipulating things ( what were they called the old ones, or ancient ones? ) Was a much darker or combat styled magic, curses , fireballs, that nature. While am sure it was maybe not meant to be perceived that way, but I think the darker magic was arcane based not divine based unlike the feather magic. I think you will want to take your goals from the spirit shaman class rather then the druid when it comes to this. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 20:27:13
Well, Hishna was the 'darker' one, from what I just (re)read. It seems to have also been the better one, encounter-wise.
Thats why i was thinking a traditional (from the original sources) Pluma mage should be an NPC, unless it gets an overhaul. I'm talking more of a 1e/2e style cleric, with protection and healing magic (and who the hell wants to play one of those in this day-and-age?) I don't know much abut the 4e classes, but one of those buffing ones might work as a PC Pluma class (and give the guy a healing aura, so he can actually do other stuff besides allow his friends to hog all the fun).
Hishna seems to have been a better at having a chance as a PC, because they could do fairly well in combat. Thats why I am picturing a secretive 'warrior brotherhood' (swordmage) of hishna-knights.
For polarity, there could be a corresponding sisterhood of Hishna-weavers (I am picturing a Aztec-erized version of the Hathrans now). there is even a decent (D&D) canon class of something called a 'Rainbow servant' in Complete Divine that fits quite nicely. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 20:14:28
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Here's the problem - 1e/2e had created quite a bit of magic that no-one in their right mind would ever use with their PCs. Sure it was cool (from an RPG perspective), and it made sense, but why would you take a spell that makes fruit grow better when you can take a fireball istead?
Yup. 3e is quite obviously profiled for plain dungeon-crawl - no custom XP awards, for one. And even cantrips were munchked up.
quote:
Problem is, I never ran a druid in 1e/2e, despite liking the concept.
It's a joke character. "Guardian of the forest loaded to the gills with fire spells".
quote:
And that's it in a nutshell - you can't use the 2e write-up for Pluma/Hishna magic and expect those poor bastards to stand a chance. If you want to make them worth using, you have to give them more firepower.
No problem here - the original wasn't made for dungeon-crawl either. Though all those darts and poisons were quite useful in jungles.
quote:
In that case, re-flavoring a druid might be exactly the way to go (If anything, the 3e druid is much more like the Magic-users of Maztica then the traditional European druid).
Probably. Especially since they were nature-oriented magic users and had little in common with "ivory tower" wizards (dead archetype that left 1d4 hitpoints to its 3e heir) to begin with.
So, slightly tweaked druids would be about right.
quote:
The Pluma-Weaver should be a priest (and possibly an NPC class, unless we can spice it up), and the Hishna-shaper should be the warrior-mage. Thats what I would do.
Nope, Hishna and Pluma have the same status. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 20:07:35
I think when I get too rewriting the history I will have that abeir continent replace maztica when mystryl dies during netheril. Since it was ruled by dragon overlords it still is and it is in the overlords interest to keep the populace in a primitive tribal state.
Since their return to toril the dracorage will have started to erode their rule and so some pockets of resistance begin to spring up.
Magic would be primitive pact and totemic magic and the whole continent would be a bit lost world setting but with huge ass dragons.
Then when the new world is discovered it wont be a real world rip off |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 19:27:33
Here's the problem - 1e/2e had created quite a bit of magic that no-one in their right mind would ever use with their PCs. Sure it was cool (from an RPG perspective), and it made sense, but why would you take a spell that makes fruit grow better when you can take a fireball istead?
And there's the rub, and the very essence of 3e (and as much as I love that edition, its biggest pitfall). Everything had to be useful in game-mechanics, which sacrifices so much flavor. Druids? They were the 'tenders of nature' they were always meant to be, now they are naturalist shape-changers with attitude. Thats not a druid, IMHO. Problem is, I never ran a druid in 1e/2e, despite liking the concept. I would have run a 3e druid, though.
And that's it in a nutshell - you can't use the 2e write-up for Pluma/Hishna magic and expect those poor bastards to stand a chance. If you want to make them worth using, you have to give them more firepower. In that case, re-flavoring a druid might be exactly the way to go (If anything, the 3e druid is much more like the Magic-users of Maztica then the traditional European druid). The Pluma-Weaver should be a priest (and possibly an NPC class, unless we can spice it up), and the Hishna-shaper should be the warrior-mage. Thats what I would do.
You know - a reflavored swordmage is precisely what they need - combine the Hishna with those Jaguar knights. I realize its not your intent to update them, but if you want them to stand a fighting chance, its the only way to go. I look at the ones in the old Maztica material and think of them as the local, weak ones that the Faerūnians encountered and were aware of (and hence our lore). Deep within the jungles are darker secrets - it was just a matter of time before brotherhoods (and sisterhoods?) of secretive, POWERFUL magic-users came forth and chased the invaders back with their tail between their legs. Thats what needed to happen........ NOT Returned Abeir.  |
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