| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 03:02:40
We all know the story of his folly, but I started thinking about divergent scenarios.
Let's say he had Chosen Ohgma the God of Knowledge. That might have been a wiser target. I think that's someone who Vecna (Grewhawk) would have targeted.
Perhaps he should have chosen a smaller divine fish...someone like Azuth. I mean seriously, he couldn't settle for being the Lord of Spells? I bet he and Netheril would have faced less repercussions that way. |
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 20:09:19
The story of Karsus the Mad always struck me as a moralizing tale about the dangers of hubris. Choosing a different target would have had the same end result, because the story was meant to emphasize that gods occupy a place in the greater scheme of things that even super powered mortals can never occupy. (That lesson has since been usurped by the tale of Cyric the Lucky bumbling his way from weak mortal to the most powerful god - at least temporarily). |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 16:03:12
Yup I knew he was mentioned elsewhere in 2e just not where exactly...I knew he was in Volo's Guide though. I don't recall any mention of him in any 1e material but I'm sure he existed in Ed's homebrew. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 13:39:59
Actually he is mentioned before that, in the 2e boxed set (if not earlier), and statted in the Volo's Guide. Look what the booklet "A Grand Tour of the Realms", from the FRCS 2e box, says:
"(...)the Troll Hills are the home of the Warlock's Crypt. Said to be the final resting place of Larloch, a great wizard of Netheril protected by his immortal, devoted servants, as well as a troop of trolls, it is reported to house great magics. The Warlock's Crypt is known to be somewhere in the western part of the hills (the position on the map is inexact). It was discovered in 1351 DR, the Year of the Crown. The sole discoverer to make back it to civilization, however, brought with him a virulent plague that decimated Baldur's Gate that year." |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 01:37:59
Larloch was 2e...he's mentioned in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast. He's statted on p.220 of that tome. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 23:14:51
Mystyrl probably had no Chosen, not as we know them. Empire of Magic states that arcanists and archwizards of legend, Karsus and Telamont (then named Shadow) among them, were thought to be favoured by Mystryl - in fairness, though, this claim is consistent with the attitudes of arcanists and archwizards and Netheril in general, and we know nothing about what Mystryl‘s clergy may have said.
What we call Chosen (for almost all deities, these days) are a refinement of what Mystra referred to as shards of her power. Mystra was well aware of the cataclysmic consequences of Weave failure, determined to not allow what had happened to her predecessor (and Netheril) happen again upon her own death. Her own successor, Midnight, was unknowingly imbued with such a divine shard, and the writings of the time baldly stated that Elminster also carried such a shard of her power, while hinting that the Symbul and perhaps Khelben and maybe perhaps a very few others might have as well.
Remember that Larloch was introduced in 3E, he did not exist within the “retro-1E“/2E Arcane Ages sourcebooks and had no bearing on the story of Karsus. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 12:49:05
Netheril would not have fallen, and the whole of Faerun (or perhaps Toril) would be quite different from what it is now. Almost always, magic trumps everything else. And likely, Netheril's magic-centric culture would have made great influence to every non-elven realms in Faerun. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 22:56:29
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Yes, but Cadderly was one guy and pretty much a chosen of his god. Netheril was a nation of magic users. But I'm talking about the general make up of Realms fiction. It's centered around magic and the goddess of magic. It always has been. So it was natural to create the narrative of Karsus. Thematically it highlights the importance and potency of magic to the Realms. It's so potent that a mortal rose up and took down a goddess and as a result magic had to be reigned in. That story sets the tone for the Realms.
So basically Karsus couldn't have chosen anyone else. It had to be Mystral because magic is the Realms.
Ah ok I get your point. I was just reading up on Azuth. Apparently he made the much wiser decision to target Savras (demi power?) in his bid for divinity. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 14:07:47
Well, even if succeeding the spell would only have had a limited duration (which Mystryl just cut short with her sacrifice). So at best Karsus would have had divine powers long enough to smite the phaerimm and then reverted back to mortal (or even be killed in the process anyway) with the pantheon as a whole certainly being very displeased at the possibility of having their power borrowed by mortals, even if only temporarily.
Maybe Karsus would still have failed in smiting the phaerimm as Ao could have stepped in and forbidden him to intervene so directly on the material world. Just because you're only a temporary deity doesn't mean you don't have to follow the rules |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 13:12:00
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I'm kind of at a loss as to why Mystryl didn't kill Karsus herself, tbh. The Terraseer and, I assume, Mystryl both knew the threat he posed prior to casting his spell.
That was also magical research, so it would be going against her portfolio - q.v. Oghma's annoyance over Cyrinishad, etc. And for that matter, Mystra sending Chosen at all, instead of resorting to gratuitous smiting.
Hence ascension of Azuth: he is free to watch her back, and if someone goes against him, a "I chose to answer this challenge <ZAP>" is within his rules, so no problem. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 12:51:51
As Ayrik stated, Oghma wasn't present in the Realms at the time (that we know of) and Mystral actually was the goddess of knowledge at the time. I am in general agreement with Xar in that many things would be different in the Realms if he had chosen another deity. To whit...
I think Larloch would have surpassed him in time. Telamont may have done so as well.
The enclaves likely would have reduced their own numbers through infighting and warring against each other.
I think Mystryl had Chosen (just fewer in number) and they likely would have worked against the Netherese (in time) as they became a threat to the Weave. I'm kind of at a loss as to why Mystryl didn't kill Karsus herself, tbh. The Terraseer and, I assume, Mystryl both knew the threat he posed prior to casting his spell. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 09:38:57
Actually, its all secretly a lie put forth by Mystra's clergy. What really happened is Karsus took over Kozah, god of destruction, and he killed Mystryl.... only he expected to claim the portfolios over magic. That's why the sudden name shift. I read all about it when I was down in Nimbral and reading through some lore in a temple library. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 05:45:16
Yes, but Cadderly was one guy and pretty much a chosen of his god. Netheril was a nation of magic users. But I'm talking about the general make up of Realms fiction. It's centered around magic and the goddess of magic. It always has been. So it was natural to create the narrative of Karsus. Thematically it highlights the importance and potency of magic to the Realms. It's so potent that a mortal rose up and took down a goddess and as a result magic had to be reigned in. That story sets the tone for the Realms.
So basically Karsus couldn't have chosen anyone else. It had to be Mystral because magic is the Realms. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 05:08:54
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
A football player doesn't strive for greatness just to be elected to the basketball hall of fame. So a crazed egomaniac magic-user doesn't strive to be the god of books and knowledge. Go big or go home.
Don't under rate knowledge. It's really the basis for everything. As god of knowledge I believe Karsus would have become unstoppable.
Well, if Ohgma were portrayed in the Realms as a major god and knowledge was a major force then I would agree. But Ohgma is set up as the god a scholars, a not so populous group. Where as Mystral/Mystra and magic are the main players in Realms fiction. So no story would have ever made sense for Karsus to go after any other portfolio than the magic portfolio.
Now if Netheril was a realm dominated and ruled by scholars and sages then Ohgma would make sense.
Cadderly was pretty darned formidable in the ways of magic, I assume his God would be the same. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 23:17:14
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
A football player doesn't strive for greatness just to be elected to the basketball hall of fame. So a crazed egomaniac magic-user doesn't strive to be the god of books and knowledge. Go big or go home.
Don't under rate knowledge. It's really the basis for everything. As god of knowledge I believe Karsus would have become unstoppable.
Well, if Ohgma were portrayed in the Realms as a major god and knowledge was a major force then I would agree. But Ohgma is set up as the god a scholars, a not so populous group. Where as Mystral/Mystra and magic are the main players in Realms fiction. So no story would have ever made sense for Karsus to go after any other portfolio than the magic portfolio.
Now if Netheril was a realm dominated and ruled by scholars and sages then Ohgma would make sense. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 23:16:49
Ah, but remember that in Karsus‘s time there were no small-fish deities. There were only Amaunator, Garagos, Jergal, Kozah, Moander, Mystryl, Selûne, Shar, Talos, and Tyche - all Greater Gods/Goddesses. Other Arcane Ages sources comment on the existence of Corellon (along with the rest of the Seldarine). Other 2E materials state that the Draconic pantheon preceded ancient Netheril, and a Norse-like Jotun/Titan pantheon may have existed during approximately the same era.
Perhaps if Karsus had waited long enough (only a few centuries, presumably growing in uncapped magical power!) *and* if Netheril had prevailed against the Phaerimm threat (which they likely would have, at least outside of the Sharn Wall) ... then the small fishies would have probably have begun appearing on their historical schedules.
The Arcane Ages text itself commented that Karsus would probably have succeeded (indeed, he technically did succeed although his godly apotheosis was very brief) if he had targeted any other Netherese deity. But Karsus was the prototype and paragon of all that was Netheril-Empire-of-Magic; his arrogant belief in the ultimate supremacy of arcane magic could have led him to no other choice of a divine target. |
| Portella |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 19:09:35
I wish sometimes in the realms they did like marvel and DC with multiple stories the what ifs stories, where they explore different options with the realms. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 13:13:39
I wonder what level of insane power Ioulaum and Karsus would have reached? Level 50, 60 or maybe even further... to cast level 13 and 14 spells... that would be baad. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 10:59:04
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
A football player doesn't strive for greatness just to be elected to the basketball hall of fame. So a crazed egomaniac magic-user doesn't strive to be the god of books and knowledge. Go big or go home.
Don't under rate knowledge. It's really the basis for everything. As god of knowledge I believe Karsus would have become unstoppable. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 10:18:05
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
We all know the story of his folly, but I started thinking about divergent scenarios.
Let's say he had Chosen Ohgma the God of Knowledge. That might have been a wiser target.
He already knew the spellgrubs are there. All this gave him is a reputation of being slightly nuttier than most archwizards.
quote:
Perhaps he should have chosen a smaller divine fish...someone like Azuth.
Was not there. And by the look of it, was added specifically to crack down on this sort of threats to the Weave, which Mystra can't fix herself because it would be going against her own portfolio.
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
A football player doesn't strive for greatness just to be elected to the basketball hall of fame. So a crazed egomaniac magic-user doesn't strive to be the god of books and knowledge. Go big or go home.
Exactly.
Conversely, there were arcanists who could take a different choice, but they didn't get far enough in this line of magic research that it mattered. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 06:46:22
I pretty much agree with Xar. Netheril would have survived to eventually scatter, and we'd still have Netherese all over the globe. The maps would look different, though, because the Netherese influence (and inevitable conflicts between enclaves) would have changed everything... |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 04:41:10
The Realms would be very different. Netheril as an "empire" probably would not have lasted long. Instead there would be enclaves all over Toril ruling over their own little fiefdoms. These Netherese archwizards would also greatly affect the growth of cities like Waterdeep and such and would greatly alter the politics of Faerun.
Thay may have been run by archwizards of Netheril as well overseeing a Zulkirate of their own choosing. Larloch would probably still be in his enclave perhaps seen as an immortal sage and recluse, probably without his lich servitors, though im sure he would have something equally powerful and terrifying to serve him.
Aumvor would still be around, maybe openly with undead armies running portions of the Sword Coast, maybe in contention with other hitherto unknown forces...?
Shade would never have left Faerun and would have stayed in it. Shadow magic would still be practiced and perhaps they would be shadowy rulers of some country...
Mystryl would maybe have not Chosen anyone, no evidence to suggest she had any desires to keep such mages on her "payroll" and Elminster and gang would probably never have become Chosen and most likely lived long, normal lives.
Heck, even the elves would have trouble all over since Netheril would have spread all over the globe, and conflicts between Narfell and Raumathar would probably have piqued some archwizards interests...
OR the archwizards left Toril-im sure some did before the Fall-and invaded other worlds... |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 04:08:40
He might very well have succeeded if he had targeted a lesser deity. It is fun to speculate. =) |
| Caolin |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 03:40:35
A football player doesn't strive for greatness just to be elected to the basketball hall of fame. So a crazed egomaniac magic-user doesn't strive to be the god of books and knowledge. Go big or go home. |
