| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 19:03:03
I'm just wondering what powerful entities we can attribute as being original "powers" of the Calishite Pantheon.
The names I can think of are
Anachtyr
Bhaelros
Ibrandul (who actually seems more like a primordial, since his corpse stayed in Undermountain)
The Star of Cursrah (pg 229) also mentions "Khises, the half-man, half-hippo hero".... whom I suspect to either be a powerful Giff, or POSSIBLY even a Giff demigod/local hero god that maybe passed when the few Giff died out on Toril.
I'm kind of interested after thinking on this, it would be interesting if the culture of Calimshan came from some time travelling Zakharans (which is hinted at being from 800's DR Zakhara), then perhaps some of the weird Zakharan gods might have come over (an elephant god... perhaps "The Lost One" from the island kingdom of Afyal, a hippo hero god named Khises, etc...). In addition, since worship of Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia and Kossuth was/is prevalent in Zakhara, they would probably be prevalent in old Calimshan.
As a sidenote, this reference made me also wonder if the Loxo (elephant people in the Shaar) and the Giff may have both been transplants that may have landed centuries back on Toril "somewhere" (maybe the Shaar, maybe Calimshan, hell, maybe in Zakhara) from spelljammers. The Giff and Loxo would both seem to fit the same world (I mean an elephant and hippo people seem to work). The Giff's warlike nature could have led to their demise. |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 01:52:48
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As a sidenote, this reference made me also wonder if the Loxo (elephant people in the Shaar) and the Giff may have both been transplants that may have landed centuries back on Toril "somewhere" (maybe the Shaar, maybe Calimshan, hell, maybe in Zakhara) from spelljammers. The Giff and Loxo would both seem to fit the same world (I mean an elephant and hippo people seem to work). The Giff's warlike nature could have led to their demise.
The Monstrous Compendium entry for the Loxo in MC11 specifically mentions they colonized Toril three generations ago, or about 240 years ago (so roughly 1130 DR), and all loxoth tribes can trace their heritage to the specific spelljamming ships that arrived (indicating there were multiple ships). IIRC, the 3e Shining South supplement removed the mention of spelljamming. Giff of course debuted with Spelljammer, so they too would be immigrants from another sphere; the giff, however, are long established in the Known Spheres, and no longer know where they came from, so it seems unlikely to me that they and loxo would be from the same sphere/world. I do not know what was done with giff after 2nd edition, but any giff on Toril would probably be mercenaries under contract, or stranded remnants of a platoon. Also as a side note, the giff don't have gods of their own and are not particularly religious (originally, they couldn't even be clerics).
Now back to your regularly scheduled thread. :)
Jeff |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 21 Mar 2014 : 04:55:07
you know what... a few of the community should get together and put together a heresies, and myths ebook for here.
have it in all the whimsical thoughts on everything..... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Mar 2014 : 23:38:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's a pretty weak connection. The Shadovar, Elminster, and Rathan Thentraver all revere a female deity, but it doesn't make Shar, Mystra, or Tymora into Fate.
Besides, if the humans of Al-Qadim became halflings, why are there humans there now? And if Fate made halflings, why do they worship Yondalla, and everyone in Al-Qadim doesn't?
That was more along the lines of "another way to spin things"; I am aware it was flimsy.
We are talking about 35K+ years of 'uncharted' Zakharan history, so humans could have come-and-gone there. They were dispersed to the very edges of the sub-continent and beyond (which shoe-horns nicely with our own FR lore), so it makes some sense they would have eventually found there way back.
As for halfings and how that could be - you merely need look at horses - they have changed size tremendously several times during their evolution, due to the ever-changing conditions around them (they get much smaller in times of scarcity). Come to think of it, didn't the halflings just grow about a foot in just a century? There ya' go. 
It was just another way of looking at things, is all. I don't think its too far-fetched to blame a few things on 'science', rather then magic, 'the gods', and dimensional migrations. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Mar 2014 : 22:58:16
On the Bhaelros and Bedine thing, there's no documented connection. However, the Bedine revere another god of destruction (Kozah) from the Netherese Pantheon, so they adopted at least one local god without changing his name. Granted, all became Talos (which is fraught with supposition... i.e. was Gruumsh really Talos (ahem, no)... was Gruumsh only posing as Talos because Talos went away with the spellplague (ahem, yes)... is Talos really Entropy <or related to entropy in some weird way>.... were Kozah and Bhaelros separate entities taken over by Talos, or just other names)
On the Fate thing... remember Tymora? She's pictured as a Halfling by the halflings. Fate and luck do share some commonality. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say Fate created them. Its documented that Yondalla did said creation. But, if the lightfoot halflings were common in Zakhara, definitely Fate may have been favored over Yondalla in that section of the world. Of course, that would give Tymora a good deal more power, since all Zakharans pay Fate lip service. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Mar 2014 : 19:16:04
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In fact... now that I think about all of this... Fate is a female goddess. The Halflings revere a female goddess - they could be one and the same. If the Scattering of Fate did indeed leave most of Zakhara a blasted waste, she may have caused the evolution of the Hin from human stock, adapting to the new environment and limited resources (and learning to dwell below ground). That could work if folks wanted a more scientific, and less 'magical' explanation for where the halfling race came from. Don't know why I never thought of that before, since Athas (Dark Sun) also has halflings as the aboriginal race of that world.
That's a pretty weak connection. The Shadovar, Elminster, and Rathan Thentraver all revere a female deity, but it doesn't make Shar, Mystra, or Tymora into Fate.
Besides, if the humans of Al-Qadim became halflings, why are there humans there now? And if Fate made halflings, why do they worship Yondalla, and everyone in Al-Qadim doesn't? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Mar 2014 : 18:29:51
EDIT: I thought this was NEW thread, and didn't realize I had already responded to it. Sorry fr any redundancy on my part.
I think there was some semi-official ('hazy lore') regarding the possibility of time-travel in regards to the Zakhara/Calimshan thing, but that was only because (IMO) Zakharan history officially went back 1000 years.
Now, as a stand-alone setting, thats fine for Al-Qadim, but as Realms aficionados we approach this problem from a different direction - Zakharan history is incomplete. Brian James (perhaps inadvertently) made references to a female Caliph in the GHotR, that was not only anachronistic (pre-Zakharan history), but also impossible in regards to Al-Qadim canon.
Thus, we apply Occam's Razor - for whatever reason, Zakharans only have records of their 'current Age', and except for perhaps a scholarly few, do not even realize that Zakhara had many ages previously, with Kingdoms, Sultans, and Caliphs they've never even heard of.
Aside: The Kara-Tur setting - which was designed to shoe-horn better with FR then AQ was - handled this by canonically stating that their history was inaccurate, because each Emperor (and Imperial period) re-wrote their history to cast themselves in a better light... which is a beautiful solution; it gives us a canon reason why canon can be wrong.
What that means is that we can disregard the ill-conceived notion of 'time travel' explanations and go the simplest route, since we already know AQ history is not the same as Zakharan Realms history (in its completeness). The Dgen all fled Zakhara to Calimshan during a point in-time which would be pre-hisotry to the current age of Zakhara. In my Homebrew musings, I place this at a point between the two major 'human' periods (which is part of Zakharan legend) - they once had a fertile land, but were 'cursed' by the goddess Fate (The Scattering of Fate) 'to wander to the four winds', and during that period when the humans were forced to become nomads, the dgen ruled. My assumption is that they probably warred on each-other, and the efreet won... and then later, something chased Memnon and his allies out as well (which we could theorize as pretty-much anything, include Fate herself).
Which makes sense - the human-rule of Zakhara was interrupted by long periods ('Ages') wherein other... things... held dominion, and that is why their own history has huge holes in it. I personally feel the Hin are aboriginal to Zakhara, because that would make the most sense - both because thats the earliest recorded mention of them (in regards to Calim and the Dgen), and also from a biological/environmental point-of-view; a small humanoid race would thrive best in a terrain with limited resources (although they could have obtained dominance over the land after the first humans were driven out).
In fact... now that I think about all of this... Fate is a female goddess. The Halflings revere a female goddess - they could be one and the same. If the Scattering of Fate did indeed leave most of Zakhara a blasted waste, she may have caused the evolution of the Hin from human stock, adapting to the new environment and limited resources (and learning to dwell below ground). That could work if folks wanted a more scientific, and less 'magical' explanation for where the halfling race came from. Don't know why I never thought of that before, since Athas (Dark Sun) also has halflings as the aboriginal race of that world. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 20 Mar 2014 : 16:56:23
The original human slaves of Calim came from Zakhara. No time travel is necessary. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 20 Mar 2014 : 08:36:09
quote:
I'm kind of interested after thinking on this, it would be interesting if the culture of Calimshan came from some time travelling Zakharans (which is hinted at being from 800's DR Zakhara)
That has me interested, or rather, I've gone off on a tangent again: with Bhaelros mentioned, do you think there's a connection with the Anauroch Bedini? |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 23:45:44
Another thing to remember is that during the Shoon Imperium pretty much all the faiths were driven out or destroyed... then later Ilmater was elevated to basically the national God by the Emperor |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 05:43:11
Yeah, the bakkals were in power for a long time. They were all priests of dark gods and/or genies. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 02:09:44
The calimshites worshiped "dark gods" at some point. Not sure who that was. Shar could definitely have been included, as could have Lolth or any kind of demon lords or devils.
I know of no other gods that can be definitively included in the pantheon other than Anachtyr (probably originally named Anach, a god of Justice who later merged with Tyr), Ibrandul, and Bhaelros. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Dec 2013 : 00:59:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You may want to look through the Al-Qadim material. Presumeaby, the Dgin (and their slaves) originated from there.
Under the 'Forgotten gods' heading, you may find these two intersting:
Shajar, an obese, hippo-headed god of the river.
Raggara, his mate, who appears as a crocodile-headed woman with bat wings.
'Khises' (Kisses? LOL!) could possibly a Calishite name for Shajar. There is also The Lost One, of Afyal: an elephant-headed deity (since the Vedic pantheon is canon to Malatra - which is directly east of Zakhara - I have always though that god the same as Ganesha).
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Auril - Not until 1106 DR
I'm just not seeing Auril as being too well known in Calimshan.
Well, you peaked my interest with Shajar. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 14 Dec 2013 : 20:00:33
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Auril - Not until 1106 DR
I'm just not seeing Auril as being too well known in Calimshan.
Her faith was introduced in Calimshan in 1106 DR according to Prayers from the Faithful. The church was so impressed, they made the priestess, one Thaulatiiya of Calimport, "First Frostmaiden of the Chill Goddess". When Thaulatiiya mysteriously disappeared five years later, the church commissioned a relic be made in her honour. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Dec 2013 : 19:48:06
You may want to look through the Al-Qadim material. Presumeaby, the Dgin (and their slaves) originated from there.
Under the 'Forgotten gods' heading, you may find these two intersting:
Shajar, an obese, hippo-headed god of the river.
Raggara, his mate, who appears as a crocodile-headed woman with bat wings.
'Khises' (Kisses? LOL!) could possibly a Calishite name for Shajar. There is also The Lost One, of Afyal: an elephant-headed deity (since the Vedic pantheon is canon to Malatra - which is directly east of Zakhara - I have always though that god the same as Ganesha).
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Auril - Not until 1106 DR
I'm just not seeing Auril as being too well known in Calimshan.
|
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 14 Dec 2013 : 17:54:46
The Gods of Fury:
Malar - don't know for sure
Umberlee - probably but not certainly until the early Shoon Imperium
Auril - Not until 1106 DR |
| Demzer |
Posted - 14 Dec 2013 : 11:23:55
First, Steven Schend is The Man, i suggest writing a question to him in his scroll on this topic.
With that out of the way here's my contribution about Calishite gods, with a couple observations first and going in details after:
1 - Contrary to popular belief, in Calimshan, genies and elementals are respected, feared and treated very cautiously. There is almost no veneration for the Elemental Lords and there are as little contacts as possible with the Elemental Planes. The end of the Era of Skyfire (-6100 DR) marked the end of forced elemental worship, after that veneration of the Elemental Lords was almost entirely discarded and temples and faithfuls of those are very few and far between. On the other hand the Gods of Fury get a fair share of worship almost everywhere in Calimshan;
2 - The Dark Gods rule: after the fall of the genies the embittered slaves turned to worship evil powers in their efforts to cleanse the lands of any elemental leftover, the Gods of Fury, Shar and Talona got the most worshippers and are still very strong after 7000 years;
[Main sources for all the above is Empires of the Shining Sea, the "Religion" sections starting at pages 54 and 61 and the "Genies and Modern Calimshan" section on page 62]
Now, time for assumptions: seeing as the Tashalar was colonized by Calishites and doesn't mix too much with the rest of the region (slaves dealings and yuan-ti problems aside), i see in the deities worshipped in Tashalar some remnants of the old Calishite gods.
With this assumption in mind and considering that in Calimshan Azuth has *now* the bulk of the magic-using-population worship, i propose Savras as one of the "original" gods of Calimshan in his ancient vest of God of Spellcaster (not restricted to diviners).
Thus the list i would make is:
Anachtyr
Bhaelros
Ibrandul
Ilmater (slaves)
Savras (magic-using crowd)
Shar
Talona
(maybe the other Deities of Fury too)
Noting here that i'm listing human deities for the following reasons:
- before the imprisonment of the genies, the humanoid slaves were forced to worship the genies and the Elemental Lords;
- after the imprisonment of the genies, the humans rose to dominant status, treating the only other conspicous demihuman presence (halflings) as slaves and battling with dwarves and elves;
- the human predominance is still enforced (if you are like me and say NO! to 4e s**t) or lasted up until someone decided to trash more than 9000 years of history and turn Calimshan into genies' land;
Over the years the situation changed: Azuth took Savras' place, Sharess and Waukeen entered the pantheon and rose to prominence and during the Shoon Imperium the faith of the Qysar was state religion. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 14 Dec 2013 : 00:15:41
I'd suggest Silvanus as well, but using one of his alternative names as shown in Prayers from the Faithful (p.49). I'd use Orthaum.
-- George Krashos
|
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 22:14:47
Also, I've always looked at Calimshan as the 'City of 1000 Gods' in that they likely had worshipers of various animal deities (think Moorcock's animal lords) along with non-deities. By non-deities I mean to say cults that spring up that do not have actual gods to worship. I once made use of a strange cult that worshiped an 'amputated' god...the cult was known for self-mutilation of extreme varieties (a similar cult was used in the Inheritance cycle by Christopher Poalini). Anyway, there was no actual deity just a bizarre cadre of followers who amputated themselves and random victims to prove their faith.
The various demon/devil lords would be included in this line, of course. In addition, there would be 'cults of personality' centering around both individual NPCs and beings who don't actually accept worshipers (such as angelic beings...in this case I'm blending Catholicism's praying to archangels).
Anyway, you get the point. I know it doesn't REALLY get to your OP, but there you have it. Cheers. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 22:04:45
quote:
As a sidenote, this reference made me also wonder if the Loxo (elephant people in the Shaar) and the Giff may have both been transplants that may have landed centuries back on Toril "somewhere" (maybe the Shaar, maybe Calimshan, hell, maybe in Zakhara) from spelljammers. The Giff and Loxo would both seem to fit the same world (I mean an elephant and hippo people seem to work). The Giff's warlike nature could have led to their demise.
I think wemics would work here as well, especially since they are primarily located in the Shaar. There are some other races that could be included as well but I can't recall the various species. There was an alligator/crocodile race that I recall, but I forget where it was listed.
As to the Calishite pantheon, just about any deity could be renamed and included in the line up (as in Bhaelros=Talos...or was Bhaelros actually another deity that was slain/subsumed by Talos?). |
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