| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 05:15:23
Okay, so I had another random thought today...
First, some random factoids.
Halaster has been around for a very long time. Long enough to predate Mystra 1.0. I've seen some speculation in these halls that he might have had some connection to Mystryl, perhaps even to the point of being one of her Chosen.
Shar had an interest in Halaster, too, and Mystra 2.0 personally used him as her agent.
Halaster somehow knew something was coming, and was working against it.
Halaster is rumored to have clones and contingency magic, and we know that he hosted one of the Manshoon clones for a while, so he could have had access to stasis clone, if not something better. Yet none of his contingency/backup magics seem to have done anything!
Halaster was practically invulnerable while within Undermountain. That said, he'd been attacked and taken out of there before... Now, if he'd been attacked before, and he was working on something of vital importance, then he should have had wards, barriers, and protective magic out the yin-yang when he was working on that last project. And yet, someone got thru and messed things up, anyway.
Despite Halaster's apparent demise, there have been indications that he is, in some way, still in Undermountain.
So...
What if Halaster's demise wasn't an accident? What if that was his goal? What if his project required his demise, and the attack by his enemies was actually anticipated by him and taken into account?
In short, what if Halaster had a goal that necessitated spending time as disembodied soul shards, for a prolonged period of time?
We know from Ed that Araumycos acts to anchor the Weave. What if Halaster's demise was meant to tie himself to the Realms, and either act as an anchor, like Araumycos, or to in some other way preserve the Weave and/or Mystra?
It could even be something he's been set to do since Mystryl prepared him, centuries ago!
I realize this is all supposition and stringing together random bits, and that there is little to back any of it up. But what if...? 
Thoughts? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 01:55:15
quote:
Originally posted by Renin
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The "Cloak & Dagger" sourcebook.
-- George Krashos
Super! To my pdf library!!
Cloak & Dagger was one of the last books of the 2E era, if not the last one before 3E. In my opinion, it is one of the best sourcebooks we ever got.
The 3E FRCS took two of the major things from Cloak & Dagger -- the Manshoon Wars and the Harper Schism -- and basically kicked them to the curb. I remain irked by this. |
| Renin |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 01:03:48
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The "Cloak & Dagger" sourcebook.
-- George Krashos
Super! To my pdf library!! |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 24 Nov 2019 : 22:30:02
quote:
Originally posted by Renin
In an odd sidenote; what resources actually detail the first specifics of the Manshoon War? I believe this was a change from 2nd to 3e, right?
The "Cloak & Dagger" sourcebook.
-- George Krashos |
| Renin |
Posted - 24 Nov 2019 : 20:26:28
In an odd sidenote; what resources actually detail the first specifics of the Manshoon War? I believe this was a change from 2nd to 3e, right? |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 21 Nov 2019 : 12:04:22
…and let's not forget the "rogue elf"? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 19:38:44
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Gotcha, though I must admit that there would be little point for him to be using weapons given his wizard levels. I could see him possibly wearing armor, but that would be with current rulesets (and when he was reworked in 3re edition, he didn't have any fighter levels). Oh, and all that being said, I don't know if they had him with fighter levels in earlier editions... I'm assuming that when you said they were writing it up that way that they did dual class him or something. Actually, when I look in the old villain's lorebook it shows him as just a wizard.
Most, if not all, of those entries were written just based on already-published material, and without much input from the authors.
Also, every edition has had a tendency to force square peg fiction characters into round holes defined by whatever the current ruleset is -- and most of the authors don't start with a character sheet when they're creating a character for a novel. I've seen so very many discussions about how some official character write-up isn't ideal, and how this canon character should have been created using this other class/kit/prestige class/whatever, instead of the base setup they were given... And often, it's because the class that's a better fit was created later, often with the specific NPC in mind.
This is another of the reasons I've long preferred the short statblocks we used to get in the 1E and 2E sourcebooks: Bahb Nounsilver (NG HM F7). Just the most basic info; let the DM create the stats they need. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 19:18:34
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What amazes me about Manshoon's history is that it suggests that he was a warrior well before becoming a wizard.
Not too surprising to me from a 1st edition standpoint. It was fairly common to find players that wanted to "dual class" a few levels of fighter for the hit points before becoming a wizard.
Its just bothersome to me because there is no sign of him being a warrior at all in current writings/rules.
Gotcha, though I must admit that there would be little point for him to be using weapons given his wizard levels. I could see him possibly wearing armor, but that would be with current rulesets (and when he was reworked in 3re edition, he didn't have any fighter levels). Oh, and all that being said, I don't know if they had him with fighter levels in earlier editions... I'm assuming that when you said they were writing it up that way that they did dual class him or something. Actually, when I look in the old villain's lorebook it shows him as just a wizard. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 12:16:13
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What amazes me about Manshoon's history is that it suggests that he was a warrior well before becoming a wizard.
Not too surprising to me from a 1st edition standpoint. It was fairly common to find players that wanted to "dual class" a few levels of fighter for the hit points before becoming a wizard.
Its just bothersome to me because there is no sign of him being a warrior at all in current writings/rules.
As I wrote before it seems to me more like he had no class at all when he started and later became wizard. But the strange thing is how fast he got to high levels (if we speak in Rules language)... |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 03:08:43
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What amazes me about Manshoon's history is that it suggests that he was a warrior well before becoming a wizard.
Not too surprising to me from a 1st edition standpoint. It was fairly common to find players that wanted to "dual class" a few levels of fighter for the hit points before becoming a wizard.
Its just bothersome to me because there is no sign of him being a warrior at all in current writings/rules. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 01:32:59
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What amazes me about Manshoon's history is that it suggests that he was a warrior well before becoming a wizard.
Not too surprising to me from a 1st edition standpoint. It was fairly common to find players that wanted to "dual class" a few levels of fighter for the hit points before becoming a wizard. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 19 Nov 2019 : 17:37:52
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What amazes me about Manshoon's history is that it suggests that he was a warrior well before becoming a wizard.
It is even weirder. He was basically good for nothing noble son who lost arm in the first fight he got into and his brother was blinded in the same fight. He later murdered some guys as they slept and robbed them. From this moment he become very smart, killed his brother than double crossed lord of Zhentil Keep, took his place and in short time became leader of merchant-mage ruled council by becoming strongest of them in magic.
This was supposedly because he found a spellbook of some random adventurer...
Also he devised a new 9th level spell that he used already as he gained the position amongst Zhentilar (Stasis Clone). |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 Nov 2019 : 02:12:35
What amazes me about Manshoon's history is that it suggests that he was a warrior well before becoming a wizard. |
| shades of eternity |
Posted - 18 Nov 2019 : 17:21:04
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Ed told us that whales are treated with "kids gloves" by deities because their long lifespans and long memories enable them to "store" divine legitimacy for a long time. Halaster with his thousand years lifespan, his personal dealings with 3 goddesses of magic (4 with Shar and the Shadow Weave) and his extensive knowledge of divine dealings/mechanics/rules (from his Imaskari heritage and its long lifetime) is probably the closest human equivalent to the whales in this regard. So saving all this stored knowledge in some form away from the Spellplague destruction was probably more important for him than living a century or three as a disembodied, crazy and shattered spirit.
and suddenly I want to do an adventure that is based on star trek iv. A planar rift opened up and is going to destroy everything unless you find a humpback what infused with divine energy. :) |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 18 Nov 2019 : 13:07:32
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do wonder why losing a hand was such a problem for the Manshoon Clone... this is not the first time Manshoon lost a hand - he had done so in his youth before becoming a lord of Zhentil Keep a a mage so one would think that EVERY Manshoon clone would know how to restore it.
What if Halaster's magic only reverted the hand regrown in Manshoons youth? Some form of powerful disjunction that negates all magical effects on target. I can see Halaster having something like that in his arsenal...
Interesting idea... just wondering, where is it noted he lost a hand in his youth?
I have totally forgot to reply to this one...
Ruins of Zhentil Keep p.13 |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Dec 2018 : 07:54:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do wonder why losing a hand was such a problem for the Manshoon Clone... this is not the first time Manshoon lost a hand - he had done so in his youth before becoming a lord of Zhentil Keep a a mage so one would think that EVERY Manshoon clone would know how to restore it.
What if Halaster's magic only reverted the hand regrown in Manshoons youth? Some form of powerful disjunction that negates all magical effects on target. I can see Halaster having something like that in his arsenal...
Interesting idea... just wondering, where is it noted he lost a hand in his youth? |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 22 Dec 2018 : 20:19:29
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do wonder why losing a hand was such a problem for the Manshoon Clone... this is not the first time Manshoon lost a hand - he had done so in his youth before becoming a lord of Zhentil Keep a a mage so one would think that EVERY Manshoon clone would know how to restore it.
What if Halaster's magic only reverted the hand regrown in Manshoons youth? Some form of powerful disjunction that negates all magical effects on target. I can see Halaster having something like that in his arsenal... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Dec 2018 : 14:05:13
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do wonder why losing a hand was such a problem for the Manshoon Clone... this is not the first time Manshoon lost a hand - he had done so in his youth before becoming a lord of Zhentil Keep a a mage so one would think that EVERY Manshoon clone would know how to restore it.
It very well could be because of what I proposed above. Maybe Halaster cast some spell on this Manshoon clone which prevents him performing more than basic healing on himself. No regeneration. No cloning of new clones. No grafting of new flesh even possibly. I haven't read the adventure cover to cover yet because of work, but I don't see that this Manshoon clone has setup other Manshoon clones to take over should he die (if someone DOES see that text, please correct me). I do see that he's making simulacrums, but that's more construct than flesh and blood, being a creation of snow with an illusory effect over it and the simulation of some of the being's memories.
I can see Halaster very much performing a spell which can stop this type of effect. Especially if he chopped off the arm specifically to have some material that's "separate" before he puts the effect on the remaining body. Its almost like a "haha, I totally undid your favorite trick. Take that you snot nose whelp of an archmage" act, which I absolutely see Halaster enjoying. Essentially, Manshoon developed one great trick, and he let it be relatively well known what his trick was.... so naturally archmages will try and find the way to counteract it. Its in their nature. Its why you try to keep your secrets a secret. For instance, my main character/NPC developed essentially a "battery" type of spell which could be tied to specific spells on his body, such that even if exposed to an anti-magic effect these spells would still be in place (think magic UPS). Its strength was that it could be applied to different spells within a certain number of spell levels, so it wasn't like he'd always have the SAME spells protected. He didn't let it be known that he had this spell. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Dec 2018 : 13:06:19
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do wonder why losing a hand was such a problem for the Manshoon Clone... this is not the first time Manshoon lost a hand - he had done so in his youth before becoming a lord of Zhentil Keep a a mage so one would think that EVERY Manshoon clone would know how to restore it.
It very well could be because of what I proposed above. Maybe Halaster cast some spell on this Manshoon clone which prevents him performing more than basic healing on himself. No regeneration. No cloning of new clones. No grafting of new flesh even possibly. I haven't read the adventure cover to cover yet because of work, but I don't see that this Manshoon clone has setup other Manshoon clones to take over should he die (if someone DOES see that text, please correct me). I do see that he's making simulacrums, but that's more construct than flesh and blood, being a creation of snow with an illusory effect over it and the simulation of some of the being's memories.
I can see Halaster very much performing a spell which can stop this type of effect. Especially if he chopped off the arm specifically to have some material that's "separate" before he puts the effect on the remaining body. Its almost like a "haha, I totally undid your favorite trick. Take that you snot nose whelp of an archmage" act, which I absolutely see Halaster enjoying. Essentially, Manshoon developed one great trick, and he let it be relatively well known what his trick was.... so naturally archmages will try and find the way to counteract it. Its in their nature. Its why you try to keep your secrets a secret. For instance, my main character/NPC developed essentially a "battery" type of spell which could be tied to specific spells on his body, such that even if exposed to an anti-magic effect these spells would still be in place (think magic UPS). Its strength was that it could be applied to different spells within a certain number of spell levels, so it wasn't like he'd always have the SAME spells protected. He didn't let it be known that he had this spell. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 20 Dec 2018 : 09:27:37
Perhaps as a clone he would have some physiological limits... |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 19 Dec 2018 : 11:43:29
I do wonder why losing a hand was such a problem for the Manshoon Clone... this is not the first time Manshoon lost a hand - he had done so in his youth before becoming a lord of Zhentil Keep a a mage so one would think that EVERY Manshoon clone would know how to restore it. |
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 10 Dec 2018 : 21:25:17
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
This was why the manshoon wars plot line was so wonderful - it could be spun into so many incredibly complicated tangents that bypass literally any statement by any source.
I think this was why Ed was always like... yes there are still a few more out there - because as long as there are more than one, the possibility for them to grow multiple strains of manshoons exists, each with its own set of wonderful consequences.
I personally love Ed's philosophy which I believe is "for each plot hook you resolve, introduce 2 more". Saying "there still exists free Manshoon's" you introduce a near infinite number of plothooks. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 10 Dec 2018 : 04:31:15
This was why the manshoon wars plot line was so wonderful - it could be spun into so many incredibly complicated tangents that bypass literally any statement by any source.
I think this was why Ed was always like... yes there are still a few more out there - because as long as there are more than one, the possibility for them to grow multiple strains of manshoons exists, each with its own set of wonderful consequences. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Dec 2018 : 13:15:33
Also, on the idea of Halaster making multiple Manshoon clones from the cut off arm (and making them think they're someone else), maybe he's SPECIFICALLY choosing to use Manshoon in this way, because as a result of the magic used to trigger them all at once, he's now beyond the issues of having multiple clones of himself active. Maybe this only extends to clones made of the clones activated as part of this (i.e. clones of the clones activated cannot make multiple clones of themselves). It could very well be an experiment of Halaster's, and maybe he isn't even sure of what the results will be. It also MIGHT be that he's realizing these clones (the ones activated in the Manshoon Wars) AREN'T going insane even after a week of them all being active, and MAYBE he hopes that this means that they can be anchors in Undermountain and be resistant to the insanity that it causes? Just throwing out ideas to see what sticks. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Dec 2018 : 00:23:37
They were and they weren't accounted for. I believe there were a total of 40-something clones, and we only got definitive info on a dozen. And then we were told there were only 3 left, when 3E came out and kicked the good storylines to the curb.
The easiest way to spin that is that only 3 were known to be active.
Of course, it's also possible that there are several around that are former Manshoons -- the compulsion to hunt each other down only affected Manshoon clones. So if one decided to make himself a half-elf named Mansiel, then he was no longer a Manshoon clone and could stand right next to a Manshoon clone without issue.
You could also have a Manshoon clone squirrel himself away somewhere that another clone wasn't likely to go, and get around the whole "kill the others!" thing that way. Maybe there's a Manshoon in the Moonshaes, or a Manshoon on the moon....
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Dec 2018 : 00:06:14
by "knowing what happened" I mean we have the story of Khelben and the Moonstars and Fzoul, etc... I should have been more clear. My point was that "we might not have known the whole story" and Khelben may have been involved with growing another clone of Manshoon (or even multiple such clones) that triggered the cascade effect. Especially if Khelben had gotten ahold of the stasis clone spell. Another option could have been that he simply FOUND several such clones and changed the triggering conditions on them (back in 2e that was one of my most favorite homebrew spells I ever created... and for 3.5 I made modification of trigger conditions into a prestige class ability)
On the idea you wanted to steal... yeah, I'm digging it too the more I think on it. Especially the idea that these "clones" are more akin to an advanced version of simulacrum. In order to make this more "viable" for in game, it should be insanely expensive to create them compared to simulacrum. There probably should be some other rules to it too, darker things... maybe sacrifice of a soul or requiring upkeep involving larvae or somesuch. |
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 07 Dec 2018 : 21:58:23
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I do still like the idea that Halaster did something to at least one of the Manshoon's that prevents his magical healing, regeneration, AND growth of a new body from his flesh (i.e. making a new clone).
We know in Dragon Heist that One-Armed Manshoon can create the standard clone spell (with a minor tweak). In my version One-Armed Manshoon lost his spellbook and all of his backup spellbooks had been stolen. So Manshoon has been working on recreating his spellbook and spent 30 years trying to recreate stasis clone. He's close to finishing it, but that could definitely mean the spell will still fizzle and not work and now he'll have to work out WHY it's not working. This can be done by sending PCs down into Undermountain on a regular basis.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
BTW, we know the story from Cloak and Dagger as to what happened with Manshoon's clones.
Aaah. I didn't realise all of them had been accounted for. In my version there were definitely more Manshoons (some of them would have been kept off world and then traveled back to Toril upon awakening).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, what if there were more to it. Khelben was a bit of a dick. In earlier editions, there was NOTHING to prevent another person who got ahold of "a big bit of flesh" from making a clone of you. Manshoon made all of his stasis clones, and he setup all these contingencies to have them go off in a certain order, etc... But what if Khelben grew his OWN clone of Manshoon and basically setup similar contingent effects that would "make it activate". Basically it could have been Khelben's working of TRIGGERING mechanisms that caused HIS clone of Manshoon and MANSHOON'S clone of Manshoon to awaken at the same time, and this breakdown then had a cascade effect awakening all the other stasis clones.
I like that a lot.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Halaster was 100% prick with a side of insane experimenter thrown in. Halaster amputated THIS Manshoon clone's arm and then imprisoned him (how long was the imprisonment? A year or two? Multiple decades?). Our first thoughts are that Halaster chopped off the arm because he wanted to cripple his prisoner. However, WHAT IF his intent was to get enough material to make multiple Manshoon clones? WHAT IF his experiment with a new spell on the Manshoon with the arm with its arm chopped off was to SEE if he could activate a new clone while THAT Manshoon was still alive? For all we know, the "arm off" Manshoon doesn't even KNOW that his cut off arm was used to make multiple extra Manshoons (if I had to guess, an arm might be enough material to make maybe 10 to 20 clones?). Manshoon being a powerful archmage, he'd be a great resource for Halaster, who might possibly use these clones to help him anchor the wards of Undermountain, so that he himself could be free. Especially after the issues created by Halaster's Highharvestide just a year (months?) after Manshoon's cloning fiasco, he may have wanted to put SOMETHING in place should he ever be removed from the Underhalls so as not to put THE WEAVE in danger (I say the weave, because I don't think he would care about the PEOPLE being in danger... his WEAVE being in danger though... unforgivable). Therefore, there may be Manshoon clones all throughout undermountain. These clones may very well have their spellcasting abilities intact, but maybe they have their memories modified/overwritten. Maybe they just know they need to protect certain "things" or "areas", and they help Halaster stabilize Undermountain. They may not even KNOW they are Manshoon. These clones may also be created with a different type of clone spell that's basically an advanced kind of simulacrum, in that they themselves cannot be used to make more clones. Maybe they can't even heal except via magic. In essence, they may be closer to what Alias is than a clone, but their initial bodies may have been grown just like a clone from a bit of flesh. Halaster's "death" in 1375 may have been him actually using some ritual to transfer a lot of this excessive "work" onto these clones and off of himself, and whether or not it was successful could be something we just don't know.
I love this idea. Consider it stolen!
quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven
That... actually makes a lot of sense. I like this idea.
Thanks. Contradictions can be a good source of inspiration in how you explain them away. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 07 Dec 2018 : 18:26:03
The amusing part about the Manshoon War is that is a plan that a mage of mine was working on before I had even heard of it as being part of the released FR lore. He created a new spell called Trigger Contigency (he actually came up with two different versions of it). The idea was to use it on Manshoon (possibly by casting it on a few pebbles and then scattering them around where Manshoon may walk, a "Contigency Landmine" if you will) so that it would trigger his stasis clone to awake and then they would kill each other. I can also see it going wrong and awakening ALL the clones. It is also useful in dodging fights with high level mages since most have some kind of contingency that will teleport them away. You just cast the spell and the other mage removes himself from the battle. If he comes back, he very likely won't have had time to create a new set of contingencies so he is going to be fighting without any backup plan.
As for Wooly's idea, I like it. Mystra's big thing was to make sure that knowledge of magic is never lost, even if she is destroyed. What better way to store magical knowledge than a fragmented soul who could survive the elimination of magic and then collect itself back together into a being who understands it fully and would be around to teach the next generations of mages once magic returned. |
| Balmar Foghaven |
Posted - 07 Dec 2018 : 13:49:30
quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think those were throwaway references.
Cloak & Dagger says Manshoon got sanctuary with Halaster, but the new Waterdeep book ignores that lore and instead says that Manny was down there without leave, Halaster caught him, they fought, Halaster won, imprisoned Manshoon and cut off his arm, and Manshoon somehow escaped after that. And Manshoon plots to get revenge on Hally for all that.
Not only does this ignore prior lore -- and in fact retcons it -- it really doesn't make sense.
Why would Halaster imprison Manshoon instead of slaying him? Why cut off his arm? If Manshoon was defeated and imprisoned with two arms, how did he escape with one? (Seriously, think on this one: When they encountered each other, Manshoon was hale and whole, and assumedly packing a full complement of spells. He was defeated, maimed, and somehow escaped. So he escaped from a much more powerful wizard, without having a full complement of spells, if any at all, and with his ability to cast any remaining spells very seriously hampered)
And why would a wizard go for a non-magical, mechanical prosthetic, instead of some sort of magical one?
A very simple explanation for this: Both events are 100% true and accurate.
Yes, Manshoon did in fact seek sanctuary with Halaster, and received it via payment of something big (probably stasis clone or perhaps some other spell). However Manshoon required that Halaster give sanctuary to no other Manshoon clone as part of his payment.
Then when a second Manshoon came along seeking sanctuary, Halaster as true to his word. He didn't give the second Manshoon sanctuary. He instead fought and defeated Manshoon and imprisoned him. This kept the second Manshoon safe (which was one of the primary goals of the second Manshoon), but he wasn't being given sanctuary. He was imprisoned.
During the second Manshoon's imprisonment he was tortured (probably not even by Halaster), and then Halaster (or perhaps the first Manshoon who had gained sanctuary) arranged for the second one to be given the opportunity to escape.
The second Manshoon, now missing one arm, was in a bit of a bother and so he quickly got together a second arm (the Spellplague had wreaked havoc with magic and this Manshoon had been imprisoned the entire time so he wasn't too sure what the current state of magic even was so when he came across a mechanical arm he was like "eh. Might as well. Better safe than sorry"). He's now working to set himself up and he simply hasn't gotten around to fixing his arm.
One Arm Manshoon also isn't 100% sure clones created before the Spellplague still work. He suspects they do, but that's a pretty big gamble. Especially when he doesn't understand why his arm won't grow back.
quote:
Originally posted by Gareth
FRCG (4th Edition) mentions that the clone that was with Halaster was destroyed during the Spellplague.
Ecology of the Sharn (Dragon 373)
-"In the depths of the Sargauth, below Halaster�s Halls, lives a mysterious creature known as the Drowned Queen, an aboleth like being thought to have unusual magical abilities akin to those of the sharns. It is whispered that the Drowned Queen was responsible for the death of a Manshoon clone who sought to rule the Underhalls in the years following the Mad Mage�s demise."
Doesn't say which Manshoon clone she defeated. There could still be one living in Halaster's sanctuary.
There were lots of Manshoon clones. Who knows how many ventured into Undermountain. Makes sense if one had the idea that others would have also had the same idea.
That... actually makes a lot of sense. I like this idea. |
| Balmar Foghaven |
Posted - 07 Dec 2018 : 13:48:57
quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think those were throwaway references.
Cloak & Dagger says Manshoon got sanctuary with Halaster, but the new Waterdeep book ignores that lore and instead says that Manny was down there without leave, Halaster caught him, they fought, Halaster won, imprisoned Manshoon and cut off his arm, and Manshoon somehow escaped after that. And Manshoon plots to get revenge on Hally for all that.
Not only does this ignore prior lore -- and in fact retcons it -- it really doesn't make sense.
Why would Halaster imprison Manshoon instead of slaying him? Why cut off his arm? If Manshoon was defeated and imprisoned with two arms, how did he escape with one? (Seriously, think on this one: When they encountered each other, Manshoon was hale and whole, and assumedly packing a full complement of spells. He was defeated, maimed, and somehow escaped. So he escaped from a much more powerful wizard, without having a full complement of spells, if any at all, and with his ability to cast any remaining spells very seriously hampered)
And why would a wizard go for a non-magical, mechanical prosthetic, instead of some sort of magical one?
A very simple explanation for this: Both events are 100% true and accurate.
Yes, Manshoon did in fact seek sanctuary with Halaster, and received it via payment of something big (probably stasis clone or perhaps some other spell). However Manshoon required that Halaster give sanctuary to no other Manshoon clone as part of his payment.
Then when a second Manshoon came along seeking sanctuary, Halaster as true to his word. He didn't give the second Manshoon sanctuary. He instead fought and defeated Manshoon and imprisoned him. This kept the second Manshoon safe (which was one of the primary goals of the second Manshoon), but he wasn't being given sanctuary. He was imprisoned.
During the second Manshoon's imprisonment he was tortured (probably not even by Halaster), and then Halaster (or perhaps the first Manshoon who had gained sanctuary) arranged for the second one to be given the opportunity to escape.
The second Manshoon, now missing one arm, was in a bit of a bother and so he quickly got together a second arm (the Spellplague had wreaked havoc with magic and this Manshoon had been imprisoned the entire time so he wasn't too sure what the current state of magic even was so when he came across a mechanical arm he was like "eh. Might as well. Better safe than sorry"). He's now working to set himself up and he simply hasn't gotten around to fixing his arm.
One Arm Manshoon also isn't 100% sure clones created before the Spellplague still work. He suspects they do, but that's a pretty big gamble. Especially when he doesn't understand why his arm won't grow back.
quote:
Originally posted by Gareth
FRCG (4th Edition) mentions that the clone that was with Halaster was destroyed during the Spellplague.
Ecology of the Sharn (Dragon 373)
-"In the depths of the Sargauth, below Halaster�s Halls, lives a mysterious creature known as the Drowned Queen, an aboleth like being thought to have unusual magical abilities akin to those of the sharns. It is whispered that the Drowned Queen was responsible for the death of a Manshoon clone who sought to rule the Underhalls in the years following the Mad Mage�s demise."
Doesn't say which Manshoon clone she defeated. There could still be one living in Halaster's sanctuary.
There were lots of Manshoon clones. Who knows how many ventured into Undermountain. Makes sense if one had the idea that others would have also had the same idea.
That... actually makes a lot of sense. I like this idea. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Dec 2018 : 13:28:34
Lol, and I'm realizing now... what I'm writing above about using Manshoon clones to anchor the weave of undermountain as part of the ritual that "ended" Halaster exactly plays into Wooly's premise for this thread. All of this within a very short span of time in the overall scheme of things.
1368 Manshoon clones released
1369 Halaster's Highharvestide
sometime between 1368 - 1375 - Manshoon clone enters Undermountain, faces Halaster, has arm chopped off
1375 Halaster attempts ritual and "dies"
Given that it takes several months to grow a clone, and we're talking MULTIPLE such clones to be grown. Plus, I'd very much imagine that Halaster would put means of control into the clones AND change their memories so they don't even know WHO they were. Plus whatever things he may need to do to anchor portions of the "weave" of magic which he's setup in Undermountain to regions that these clones would protect. It may take him a few years to get things prepped.
BTW, my first thoughts were to have him having the clones anchoring the weave similar to how he does. However, he might be afraid to do this, and he might have the clones simply protecting other things which anchor the weave. It might be interesting to think of things that might be done. For instance, WHAT IF he were to capture an illithid elder brain and put it under compulsions (something I cannot picture many mages being able to do...but Halaster?.. that man may just have the knowledge) to anchor a portion of the weave. Even as I write up this concept, my googling even makes a more interesting discovery in that Ioulaum of Netheril apparently transferred his sentience into an undead elder brain and was still alive in 1372 in the Northdark city of Ellyn'taal. Any idea where this is? It might be interesting if Halaster decided to use the mind of Ioulaum to help him anchor things.
Along similar lines, I wouldn't be surprised if Halaster secured a mythallar from the Netherese of Returned Netheril, or possibly even a Udoxias from Jhaamdath, or some kind of Imaskari or Calishite device to help secure Undermountain. Hells, I wouldn't be surprised if he even entrapped a minor primordial/genie/powerful fey being. |
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