| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| muir |
Posted - 06 Nov 2013 : 19:38:30
This came up while I was considering genasi parentage, and thought of dwarf/azer and dwarf/pech couples. (Unlikely, but not impossible.)
This led to my considering dwarven interbreeding. Shield, gold, jungle, arctic dwarves are all, as far as I understand, only distinct sub-races due to environmental and cultural differences. Urdunnir were transformed by Dumathoin, while the duergar were altered by illithids. Unlike the gith races, I have not found any reference to duergar producing eggs rather than live young, so I assume they bear children as most bipedal mammals do.
Derro, being a multi-generational dwarf/human hybrid begun by deific twisting, I do not count as a dwarven subrace for the purpose of this discussion. (Feel free to disagree.)
Elves, I remember reading but cannot trace the reference, breed true to one parent in the case of sub-species crosses. What happens to dwarves, if, say, a shield dwarf and duergar coupling produces a child? What would it look like? Would it have a higher chance of psionic talent? Urdinner cross-breeds I think would be even rarer, due to their isolation. |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Nov 2013 : 03:36:47
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
There was, by the way, a standard half-dwarf race in dark sun. "Mul". Dark Sun races were a bit different, but I see no reason mul could not be used elsewhere.
Muls are born sterile and are a distinct DARK SUN race. Whereas the half-dwarves of the Realms aren't a distinct race. They are still, essentially, pureblood dwarves, as Ed's Dwarves Deep notes. Thus, they can still breed.
The fact that Muls can't breed would seem to be an inherent aspect of Athasian dwarven genetics. So if we were to include them in the Realms, that differing genetic trait would probably have to be addressed beforehand. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 08 Nov 2013 : 02:56:21
There was, by the way, a standard half-dwarf race in dark sun. "Mul". Dark Sun races were a bit different, but I see no reason mul could not be used elsewhere. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 08 Nov 2013 : 00:33:07
Mr. Hawkins I consider it my duty, for posterity's sake of course, to steal your work. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 08 Nov 2013 : 00:27:32
If you are interested, I designed a race where you can mix and match prime material and planar racial heritages. In 3.5 these would all probably be considered +1 races, but in Pathfinder they are just considered to be "Advanced" races. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 21:26:51
I don't know about anyone else - but I'd like to see that haiku :P |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 21:20:03
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
There was a dwarf / elf hybrid in Myth Drannor if I recall correctly. I can't for the life of me remember who or what they were known for though.
From a prior discussion...
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Interesting, but as I recall, while dwarves CAN interbreed with humans, the offspring tend to be sterile, and are hence called (somewhat derogitorily, I believe) "mules". I think that came from some 3.5 Eberron lore, or some such, but it would stand as "standard" for ALL D&D lore, I think. I do recall there being ONE half-dwarf/elf, and that was Drannor, for whom Myth Drannor was supposedly named, according to the 2nd ed book "Cormanthyr". apperantly, he was the product of the first (and likely ONLY) elf/swarf union.
There's more than that one. There are two named ones that I know of, and references to others.
Of the named ones, one was Isinghar "Feyrune" Ironstar, described as a dwelf runecarver and archmage of Ammarindar, who was one of the secondary casters in the raising of the mythal over Myth Glaurach. This is from the Myth Glaurach article that was part of the Mintiper's Chapbook series.
The other named dwelf was Dlarbraddath. We don't know if that was his actual name; we just know that a section of Myth Drannor was "named for the gardener who laid it out, a being said to have an elven mother and a dwarven father!" (page 19, Campaign Guide to Myth Drannor, Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set). I think it more likely he was named Dlarbradd.
The Myth Glaurach article also notes, in the footnotes, that
quote:
Dwarf-elf crossbreeds, known as "dwelf" in the singular and "dwelves" in the plural, are noted as having been common in the days of Eaerlann in FR11 – Dwarves Deep, p. 6.
Page 6 of Dwarves Deep says:
quote:
Humans, gnomes, and halflings are cross-fertile with dwarves. Elminster says elves and dwarves can have issue as well. Common in Ardeep, Eaerlann, and Myth Drannor of old, this is unheard-of today.
and
quote:
"Half-dwarves" are not a distinct race. Save for their height (a head taller than most dwarves) all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look and act (and are treated in the rules) as pureblood dwarves. Dwarven halfbreeds always have the stocky build and hirsute appearance of purebloods.
There's no notation there about half-dwarves in the Realms being sterile. I think that you're conflating Dark Sun's muls with half-dwarves of the Realms. Muls are sterile, as I recall, and they are also half-dwarves -- but they're also specific to Dark Sun.
We also have this particular bit from Steven Schend, as well:-
quote:
Dwelves....okay, I'll stop myself early before I start doing haiku about stone shelves and dungeon delves....
As stated above (and like half-elves), they favor and adopt the lifestyle/culture under which they are raised. Same goes for which gods they revere.
Both elves and dwarves have serious cognitive dissonance when it comes to dwelves, as (unlike half-elves or half-orcs, IMO) there's no set form or expectation for how they'll look. It's anyone's guess if you'll end up with a dwarf's body size and shape with elven features and ears or an elf's body but stocky vs. svelte and rather hairier than the norm. Dwarven parents may mourn their child's inability to grow a decent beard, thanks to their elven half, while elves may grumble that the child is more interested in the dirt rather than the tree from which it springs. Most likely, they're only comfortable among some societies that embrace acceptance and unity (like Myth Drannor or Miyeritar or elsewhere).
That said, I was surprised by that Myth Glaurach note. Methinks I'll have to talk to Eric and find out what else he's had the Blackstaff up to while I've not been watching....if only for my own curiousity, of course.
Steven
(and some day I'll tell y'all about the Pentad, an alliance of the churches of five gods of four races...but not today, as only three dwelves worshiped among them, and none of them reached high priest stage or any ranking of note)
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| Eilserus |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 20:51:48
There was a dwarf / elf hybrid in Myth Drannor if I recall correctly. I can't for the life of me remember who or what they were known for though. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 20:17:07
D'tarig are a 4-foot tall human subrace native to the Anauroch desert and are encountered much more frequently than the Bedine. It's theorised that they are descended from couplings between dwarves from tethyamar and humans from the same general area. (Anauroch, The Empire of Shade p140/FR 13 p31)
Madminds were the result of illithid experiments in Gauntlgrym, created in 1363 and ultimately what killed them a few years later once they started to breed amongst themselves. Madminds are very prolific and came to populate much of the lower levels (Lost Empires of Faerun p143) until driven out by duergar (Neverwinter Campaign Setting p196). |
| muir |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 18:46:59
Indeed, gold/shield/jungle/arctic would all produce children with largely the same physical characteristics. (Jungle and arctic tend to be smaller than shield and gold.) Jungle and arctic tend to be less lawful, also...
I do not have, and have not read, Dwarves Deep, alas.
D'tarig?
Yes, with the duergar example, I was thinking that it might not be consensual. I am unsure if duergar would be cross-fertile, though durzagons provide a potential case for it, if perhaps only with horny devils.
I do not know too much about derro; what is their link with illithids? And what is the source for madminds?
And Markus, nakit? A search turns up various Eastern European sites. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 13:16:55
Well, if a Jungle and arctic dwarf had babies, I'd just call them dwarves.
Maybe nakit dwarves.... |
| Barastir |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 13:02:14
Yes, we must remember that dwarves interbreed less with other races or even subraces because they are extremely lawful and usually keep their lineages more "pure" through arranged marriages. But I'm also curious, don't remember a mention to this topic in Dwarves Deep. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 05:09:38
Dwarven genes can be considered very strong compared to other races. Half-dwarven children for example are imperceptibly different from a pure-blooded dwarf and it's been stated that even if a half-dwarf were to dilute the bloodline further, it would still result in a half-dwarf. If the theory about the dwarven origins of the D'tarig is true it would mean many generations of half-dwarves breeding with humans to create a still-very dwarven human subrace.
Outsider blood always seems to manifest itself somehow with durzagons, azerbloods, etc.
So what happens when dwarves breed with other dwarven subraces? Does one subrace have a stronger bloodline than others? It's never been mentioned to my knowledge, people seem to be far more concerned with a dwarf's ability to interbreed with other species.
Hypothetically, and this is purely speculation, I'd say if you have an individual from a family with a particularly dominant family trait like a bulbous nose, then it's child will be the same subrace as it.
Remember though that gold dwarves only really breed with other gold dwarves for cultural reasons, duergar and surface dwarves wouldn't WANT to breed typically and the derro would probably only breed with duergar (and then only in Gracklstugh) unless they forced themselves on someone (that being said, with a little bit of intervention, a derro can create half-illithids known as madminds so who knows what they're capable of).
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