| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Demzer |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 20:41:25
Alright folks, i know the title can be misinterpreted but that it's not what i'm talking about.
I'm asking about the fact it's said in Faiths & Pantheons and Faiths & Avatars that Selune spent some time as a deity subservient of Sune and just recently went her own way again.
Is there somewhere i can look for elaboration on this divine matter? When did it start/end (roughly)? How did Selune came under Sune's guidance and not Lathander/Amaunator/Chauntea/Ilmater's or any other good deity with which she has a friendly relationship? Is this past collaboration the reason why Sune snatched Sharess from Shar's clutches during the Time of Troubles?
Leaving divine dealings in their obscure mist, is there any trace in temples, faiths, heresies or specific clerical orders that reflect the past affiliation of Selune or her relationship with Sune?
Thanks everyone! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 14:55:24
My thoughts on the pantheons I've discussed before, but some folks with more 'street cred' in that dept. feel a bit differently.
I think the Finnish pantheon came from the northern Hordelands region (The Taan), with the original Gur tribes, who had a thriving civilization - the Kalmyk - of their own at one point around the Bay of Raum (southern Great Ice Sea). These tribes migrated west after first contention with the Imaskari, and later contention with Taangan (Tuigan) tribes coming from the east. The last remnants of these people became Raumathar, and eventually the modern-day Raumvari (around the Lake of Mists, and closely related to the Rashemi & Nar peoples).
The Gur that first began moving west continued to do so, as more of their number pushed into their territories, until finally they crossed the Moonsea north (and the Moonsea was either not there at that time, or looked very different). The remnants of this period of migration are the Eraka of The Ride. Bear in mind, as a population migrates, its bloodlines are constantly shifting as they mix with local tribes.
Eventually the last of the Gur wanderers settled in a beautiful, fertile valley around a northern sea, and became the people of Seventon, who eventually became the Netherese. This took many centuries, and they had much contact with other groups, and thus not much of their original pantheon (the Finnish) remained intact.
The last group of people they merged with (before becomeing Netherese) were a group of north-migrating Dathite (modern day Chondathan) peoples, who brought their own gods and culture with them. The Dathites were all that remained of a very early group the Imaskari kidnapped from another world and brought to Toril, before many of them managed to revolt and escape (fleeing west and north from The Old Empires). These people brought their own pantheon with them, which had also been modified by admixture and time. This was the last remnants of the Greek Pantheon.
Thus the Netherese were predominantly of Gur/Raumvari heritage (a Conan-esque folk, with dark features and skin), and a good mix of ancient Dathite (Greek/Mediterranean) blood.
Then the Netherese attacked Thaeravel - a Talfiric people - and absorbed the survivors (which mostly became 'low Netheril'). Telemont was at the forefront of this conflict, and seized much of the Talfiric teachings for himself. This is how the Archmages learned of Shar (and others), and how that 'shadowy' corruption began to infiltrate Netherese society. They became paranoid, and the enclaves more insular. This is also when the Netherese first adopted Talona into their pantheon, who came with the Talfir subjects. The war between Talona and Kiputytto's worshipers carried on all throughout Netherese's heyday, and only ended after the great empire fell, in the last two cities standing in the Stonelands/marshes region. Some say it was their conflict that 'infected' so many Netherese archmages with madness... we will never know.
Thats how all of that played-out in MY mind, and its actually the quick-&-dirty version. As I briefly mentioned, all of these peoples had been mixing with others (including non-humans) over the course of milenia, and none of the people, nor their pantheons, were the same as when they 'started' in FR.
YMMV.
|
| SirUrza |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 13:09:42
And here I thought this was going to be some kind of slash fic thread about them having a lesbian relationship... well I'll prefer to think it was that. :P |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 11:33:39
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And she is the daughter of Aphrodite and Zeus (making her also the grandaughter of Zeus... Greek gods are 'icky' that way).
Thus making Zeus and Aphrodite FR canon. 
If Sune is Aphrodite, and Selune is Sune, and she tore Tyche in two, then she's a VERY bad mommy. Then again, she left her other daughter to battle her sister alone for 35,000+ years, so we know her parenting skills suck.
In 5e, I say we petition WotC to have her kids taken away and put in cosmic foster care. 
Well, I was going to go with "we already have proof of the Netherese and Greek Pantheon's interacting". So, Tyche was allowed into the Netherese Pantheon, but wherever Aphrodite WOULD have come across, maybe instead they had to accept Sune as their goddess of beauty and Selene is maybe another aspect of Selune where Selune seized upon the name. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 21:17:04
And she is the daughter of Aphrodite and Zeus (making her also the grandaughter of Zeus... Greek gods are 'icky' that way).
Thus making Zeus and Aphrodite FR canon.
If Sune is Aphrodite, and Selune is Sune, and she tore Tyche in two, then she's a VERY bad mommy. Then again, she left her other daughter to battle her sister alone for 35,000+ years, so we know her parenting skills suck.
In 5e, I say we petition WotC to have her kids taken away and put in cosmic foster care. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 19:50:50
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Great post again, Gray.
Uhm, so we have two perfectly plausible origins for Sune:
1 - She's a fragment of Selune's essence: Selune, being one of the most powerful deities in her time and one of the few with a global view, sent fragments (avatars?) of herself all over Toril to establish churches and get followers. In time many of these fragments morphed into individual entities and grew specific identities and wills. Sune was one of those, during the divine shuffles that happen in every pantheon she ended up with "just" dominion over love, passion and marriage. When the pantheons merged and Selune started re-absorbing her wayward fragments (growing powerful, enough that she could cleave another greater deity, Tyche, in two without breaking a sweat), Sune had grown too different from the original to be absorbed without a fight and Selune, ever caring and benevolent, choose to let her go her own way and not enforce her claim. Later, when Selune's power was at an all times low, she found shelter under the tutelage of her old fragment Sune, that was still subconciously linked to her and grateful for the chance she was given to walk her own path indipendently. When the ToT hit, Selune finally got her investment in all the avatars back getting "faith-XP" from all the worshippers that venerated her with different names, thus gaining enough power to hit the road again alone. Other such fragments that went their own way may be Selan of Zakhara and either Kwan Ying or Ai Ch'hing of Kara-Tur.
2 - Sune is an aspect/manifestation/incarnation of Venus/Aphrodite: if we look at the immigrant greek/egyptian/mesopotamian deities in the same way we look at Faerunian deities that it may very well be that some (or maybe a lot) of the Mulhorandi and Untheri deities that "made the jump" had flings or more lasting relationships with beauty-of-the-next-door Venus. Thus even if she wasn't able to break through or circumvent the Imaskari barrier in person, she was "carried" there in the memories and minds of the other deities. Now, when confronted with the horror of Imaskari slavery, the perils of the war and even death itself (there were a lot of "Ra", "Enlil", "Bast" and so on running around as fragments of the original and getting killed by the Imaskari artificers and archmages) many of those divine soldiers, each with the same memories and willpower greater than mere mortals, may have longed for their lost paramour. And if the war with the Imaskari wasn't enough, the Orcgate Wars were another bloodbath of savagery and this time the deities themselves battled and perished, thus giving more strength to their last wishes and wills. If somehow Sune came to be in such circumstances, she surely ran away from the conflict, confused and frightened about her identity, her weakness and the unfamiliar surroundings. From then on, with the power level of a manifestation or incarnation (thus far greater than mortals), she travelled far and wide giving rise to her church.
Both of these make her a daughter of sorts (of Selune or Venus/Aphrodite), both have her well established by the time the pantheons merged (after the Fall of Netheril) as an individual deity. Now we "just" need to find what caused so great an hemorrhage of Selune's power to get her "demoted" to lesser deity and be in need of some support and protection by Sune.
Just one minor wrinkle to throw in here. We have Selune splitting TYCHE into Beshaba and Tymora. Tyche is definitely a Greek deity. Yet she's definitely in the Netherese Pantheon. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 15:12:40
I believe this was a typo of the OP. I caught that as well, but don't recall that from the original article. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 15:09:18
quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
Alot of this is also in the FR Campaign Box Set (1987) but there is one other thing not found in Ed's original article:
quote:
The Olympian pantheon is unknown, and the Outer Plane of Olympus is known in the Forgotten Realms by its elvish name, Arvandor. Sune Firehair, however, sounds suspiciously like Athena of the Greeks, and may be the same Power.
The article says Athena, not Aphrodite?  If so, it must be a mistake, right? |
| Barastir |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 15:02:37
quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
The blurb on Selune says:
quote:
Selune is continually either growing to full glory or dying.
and she is listed as a Lesser Goddess as this point in time.
It is true that her power waxes and wanes like the moon, but in THIS case, we must observe an editorial/nomenclature reason. The OGB deities were classified in three categories: greater, lesser and demigods. Later (in 2e) the same gods were re-classified between greater, intermediate and lesser gods, and other demigods were introduced (along with dead gods, quasi-deities, beast cults, etc.). |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 13:27:02
No cause is needed. It is inherent in her nature. She is the goddess of the moon. She continuously waxes and wanes in power, from full to new, and she is occasionally eclipsed by other celestial entities. Her power is, by its very nature, cyclical. She is continually in flux. Ed contemplated this in his conception of her. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 10:18:26
Great post again, Gray.
Uhm, so we have two perfectly plausible origins for Sune:
1 - She's a fragment of Selune's essence: Selune, being one of the most powerful deities in her time and one of the few with a global view, sent fragments (avatars?) of herself all over Toril to establish churches and get followers. In time many of these fragments morphed into individual entities and grew specific identities and wills. Sune was one of those, during the divine shuffles that happen in every pantheon she ended up with "just" dominion over love, passion and marriage. When the pantheons merged and Selune started re-absorbing her wayward fragments (growing powerful, enough that she could cleave another greater deity, Tyche, in two without breaking a sweat), Sune had grown too different from the original to be absorbed without a fight and Selune, ever caring and benevolent, choose to let her go her own way and not enforce her claim. Later, when Selune's power was at an all times low, she found shelter under the tutelage of her old fragment Sune, that was still subconciously linked to her and grateful for the chance she was given to walk her own path indipendently. When the ToT hit, Selune finally got her investment in all the avatars back getting "faith-XP" from all the worshippers that venerated her with different names, thus gaining enough power to hit the road again alone. Other such fragments that went their own way may be Selan of Zakhara and either Kwan Ying or Ai Ch'hing of Kara-Tur.
2 - Sune is an aspect/manifestation/incarnation of Venus/Aphrodite: if we look at the immigrant greek/egyptian/mesopotamian deities in the same way we look at Faerunian deities that it may very well be that some (or maybe a lot) of the Mulhorandi and Untheri deities that "made the jump" had flings or more lasting relationships with beauty-of-the-next-door Venus. Thus even if she wasn't able to break through or circumvent the Imaskari barrier in person, she was "carried" there in the memories and minds of the other deities. Now, when confronted with the horror of Imaskari slavery, the perils of the war and even death itself (there were a lot of "Ra", "Enlil", "Bast" and so on running around as fragments of the original and getting killed by the Imaskari artificers and archmages) many of those divine soldiers, each with the same memories and willpower greater than mere mortals, may have longed for their lost paramour. And if the war with the Imaskari wasn't enough, the Orcgate Wars were another bloodbath of savagery and this time the deities themselves battled and perished, thus giving more strength to their last wishes and wills. If somehow Sune came to be in such circumstances, she surely ran away from the conflict, confused and frightened about her identity, her weakness and the unfamiliar surroundings. From then on, with the power level of a manifestation or incarnation (thus far greater than mortals), she travelled far and wide giving rise to her church.
Both of these make her a daughter of sorts (of Selune or Venus/Aphrodite), both have her well established by the time the pantheons merged (after the Fall of Netheril) as an individual deity. Now we "just" need to find what caused so great an hemorrhage of Selune's power to get her "demoted" to lesser deity and be in need of some support and protection by Sune. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 05:10:20
Although I can't be certain I got the impression it was intentionally ambigous whether Sune was an aspect of Aphrodite. They are the same archtype.. but so is Hanali and so forth (granted in 4th edition Hanali is part of Sune so perhaps they are all one being?) But then are all the sky Gods (Anu, Enlil, Zeus, Susanoo, Talos, etc.) in Planescape the same entity? Mask was supposed to, in that article, be based on Hermes and Chauntea on Demeter, etc. yet the realms entities are obviously quite different. It seems like a question that can't be answered, and an unreliable narrator isn't going to tell us the "truth" of the matter. If we believe Sune is Aphrodite couldn't we assign roles to other deities as well such as Demeter/Chauntea (Gaia, and all the other earth goddesses)
In my own realms I assigned a Greek name to 12 gods in Chessenta to reflect the Greek flavour. (Zeus/Talos, Demeter/Chauntea, Mask/Hermes, Lathander/Apollo, etc.) It seems up to the individual imaginer to decide whether archtypes are really all the same thing or distinct entities. The good old unreliable narrator isn't going to tell us the "truth" of the matter. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 04:49:36
Another theory that has been suggested is that Suné is a Realms fragment of Venus (aka Aphrodite) and that Suné may be an anagram or corruption of that name that has lost the "v".
I remember Ed's Down to Earth Divinity article well. I never knew if he meant for Suné to be an actual aspect of Aphrodite or just a love goddess in the vein of Aphrodite, that is a god based on her as a model, but not actually her. Even though it is rumored that Suné was an aspect of Aphrodite, I was never certain if it were one of those rumors that are based in truth or just a red-herring. I'm sure Ed himself hates to resolve such ambiguities; I know he prefers the origins of gods to remain somewhat mysterious and maintains that the truth about gods can never be known to a certainty.
I had always thought that if it were ever established as true, though, then Suné might be one of the few surviving Olympian gods of classical Greece and Rome that somehow managed to establish a foothold in the Realms after the Imaskari abducted their worshipers from Earth and used them as slaves in the Chessenta region.
The slaves in question would probably have been abducted circa 4366 DR, after the plague of -4370 devastated the Imaskari empire. Because of the god barrier that had been erected, the Greek/Roman gods could not establish a presence in the Realms and could not service their worshipers. (The Egyptian & Mesopotamian pantheons were only able to break through by sending specially imbued super-avatars of themselves physically into Realmspace using special spelljammer arks.) And so the blocked Olympians would have been forgotten after a time, as their worshipers were wooed away to more responsive deities. That's why there are no mentions of the Greek gods in the Realms, except for the rare and tantalizing brief mentions you run across in obscure lore.
But perhaps Venus/Aphrodite alone somehow managed to slip a fragment of herself through the god barrier and find a foothold in the realms. Perhaps an attenuated, low-gain whisper of her godly signal managed to penetrate the barrier in some strange way. And as a result, maybe her worship survived through the ages and diffused around the Dragon Coast, no doubt propelled faster by the period of great trade and colonization during the height of Jhaamdath, and later the Chondathan Diaspora.
Of course, it could be (and this may be the more probable explanation) that Selūne simply adopted the alias of Venus. I imagine several other extant Realms gods would have appropriated the unclaimed aliases of the absent Olympians in order to redirect the veneration of the recent immigrant slaves towards themselves... with the intention of, over time, shifting that worship away from the aliases towards the real gods. Thus Selūne, in the guise of Venus, could have gained a certain popularity as a love goddess along the Dragon Coast. Then with time her name morphed into "Suné" and spread as far as the Talfirs in the Western Heartlands and up into the North.
Sometimes such aspects fragment into distinct and separate entities. Gods are kind of like amoebas that way. Splitting by a metaphorical, memetic mitosis into new gods. Thus Suné was "born" of Selūne, and the myths among the Talfirs may have reflected an actual "birth" to explain it all.
That kind of addresses many of the thoughts that have been percolating in the back of my brain on the matter for some time. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 03:46:07
quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
And then we have "Prayers from the Faithful" designed (written?) by Ed and under the Sash of Sune it says:
quote:
References to what may be the Sash of Sune appear as long as 3,000 years ago, but the item is first wholly and reliably identified in the chatty, personal Travels of Aruugh, a chapbook popular as entertainment in the Vilhon Reach some 1,020 summers ago.
Of course, it could be argued that the Sash existed 3000 years ago, but was known as something else -- linking it to Sune could be a far more recent event. |
| rjfras |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 00:59:43
not sure what time frame in the Realms this is from, but back in Dragon 54 (1981), Ed wrote an article "Down-to-earth divinity, One DM's design for a mixed and matched mythos." and it has a chart for "The Deities & Demigods of the Forgotten Realms: Human Deities"
Sune is listed with a home plane of Olympus and is listed as a Greater Goddess at this point.
Then there is a short blurb for each god and for Sune it says:
quote:
SUNE Aphrodite (DDG, p. 64) renamed; the ultimate in charisma.
and then under "Alliances among the gods" it says
quote:
"Lliira and Selune serve Sune."
At this point in time, Bhaal and Myrkul are still around as is Tyche and Beshaba.
The blurb on Selune says:
quote:
Selune is continually either growing to full glory or dying.
and she is listed as a Lesser Goddess as this point in time.
Alot of this is also in the FR Campaign Box Set (1987) but there is one other thing not found in Ed's original article:
quote:
The Olympian pantheon is unknown, and the Outer Plane of Olympus is known in the Forgotten Realms by its elvish name, Arvandor. Sune Firehair, however, sounds suspiciously like Athena of
the Greeks, and may be the same Power.
And then we have "Prayers from the Faithful" designed (written?) by Ed and under the Sash of Sune it says:
quote:
References to what may be the Sash of Sune appear as long as 3,000 years ago, but the item is first wholly and reliably identified in the chatty, personal Travels of Aruugh, a chapbook popular as entertainment in the Vilhon Reach some 1,020 summers ago.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 14:02:57
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
PM sent to ksu_bond (i failed to see a way to check if a PM is received, is there any?)
Just to clarify what i meant with my tirade on time: even if gods/primordials or even elves (that have a greater lifespan than humans) see the passing of time as different, whatever happens in 1300 DR and lasts until 1303 DR lasted 3 years for all parties involved. That may be the blink of an eye for the deities, a small interlude for an elf and 1/20 or 1/30 of the full lifetime of a human, but nonetheless it lasted 3 years.
Thus when something that lasted "some centuries" ends in 1358 DR, it had to begin at most 999 years prior to 1358 DR. That's what i was saying.
To get some more "datas" out here, i found a reference to Sune i a place where i hadn't thought there would be any, from Champions of Ruin, page 43, under the "Lore" section for the Gray Portrait it says:
"Long ago, almost two millennia in the past, a vain and selfish chaotic neutral follower of Sune named Belarian the Beautiful sought any means available to sustain and enhance his beauty. Firehair's creed teaches that beauty it's not just skin deep, but Belarian only cared about his appearance."
Meaning that around -600 DR Sune was already established as a deity with followers and a clear central dogma.
Good find. So, IF we were to go with the idea that Selune and Sune were already the same being (or a split of the same being), just a slight variation in name, then said split would have been prior to roughly -600 DR. I'd imagine that whatever culture Sune and this Belarian was in favored red hair. This pretty much throws out any dawn cataclysm convergence for the split.
Just wondering, do we have a pantheon listing of any sort for Jhaamdath and/or the Talfir people? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 11:52:17
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
PM sent to ksu_bond (i failed to see a way to check if a PM is received, is there any?)
I believe it remains in your outbox as unread until received, then it gets flagged as read.
Though if you go and read message you sent and also will be flagged read even if not received by user it was sent to. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 11:03:34
PM sent to ksu_bond (i failed to see a way to check if a PM is received, is there any?)
Just to clarify what i meant with my tirade on time: even if gods/primordials or even elves (that have a greater lifespan than humans) see the passing of time as different, whatever happens in 1300 DR and lasts until 1303 DR lasted 3 years for all parties involved. That may be the blink of an eye for the deities, a small interlude for an elf and 1/20 or 1/30 of the full lifetime of a human, but nonetheless it lasted 3 years.
Thus when something that lasted "some centuries" ends in 1358 DR, it had to begin at most 999 years prior to 1358 DR. That's what i was saying.
To get some more "datas" out here, i found a reference to Sune i a place where i hadn't thought there would be any, from Champions of Ruin, page 43, under the "Lore" section for the Gray Portrait it says:
"Long ago, almost two millennia in the past, a vain and selfish chaotic neutral follower of Sune named Belarian the Beautiful sought any means available to sustain and enhance his beauty. Firehair's creed teaches that beauty it's not just skin deep, but Belarian only cared about his appearance."
Meaning that around -600 DR Sune was already established as a deity with followers and a clear central dogma.
Another reference is in Power of Faerun, page 55, in the first paragraph of "The House of Firehair"'s write up it says:
"The House of Firehair is older than the city of Daerlun; in fact, the city grew from the small village that sprang up to serve the temple's inhabitants"
But i don't know what's the official date of Daerlun's founding, if we even have such knowledge somewhere or what are the earliest historical references to Daerlun. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 10:22:05
It could just as easily be something like under some other pantheon Selune's name got shortened to Sune over the years... and thus she was an interloper in multiple pantheons. That aspect named "Sune" in the other pantheon was only over love/beauty. Then, there was a merger between the "other" pantheon and the Netherese pantheon. At that point, perhaps Selune decided to divide herself into two aspects for security's sake (maybe she felt she had too much power.... maybe she was worried that if she were killed like Mystryl was, then all love would leave the world).
I just find it too coincidental that two deities whose names are so similar AND at least one of them held the portfolios of the other AND one served the other... that they weren't somehow the same being. The only other option I see would be Sune being a usurper capitalizing on the similarities of names to steal portfolios from Selune, but that doesn't generally seem her modus operandi. |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 23:54:57
Thats fine...give me the canon date for the War of Light & Darkness occured and when Sune became a deity and I'll stop being vague and concede that my "facts" are indeed false...
Until then...I respectfully disagree and politely refrain from replying to your post in a like manner.
Though I will point out that through the eyes of an elf "time IS different" than through the eyes of a human...so why wouldn't time be different when seen through the eyes of incredibly powerful immortal...and it is at this point that I will point out that I said "time for gods (primordials) is much different", nowhere did I claim that they somehow operate outside of time, on a different timeline, or that their events somehow contradict the linear timeline of the Realms...
Rather I was more inferring that Sune could have been "born" post War of Light and Darkness, joined the the Talfiric pantheon as a fledgling (immature, child, etc) goddess of love and beauty, and blossomed (increased in power, became a woman/adult, etc.) following the Dawn Cataclysm...given this timeline however, that would have made Sune a child for quite sometime...hence my comment that "time for gods (primordials) is much different"... |
| Demzer |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 22:06:53
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
For those concerned with timeline and cheapening the Dark Three...who's to say when Sune would have been born? We do know that Selune and Shar are two of the most ancient deities in the Forgotten Realms...Selune created the first and second sun along with all of the stars...in a manner of speaking she would have had a hand in creating Amaunator and Lathander (or at least aiding to their arrival in the Realms)...so who is to say that following the War of Light and Darkness Selune wasn't taken by the newly arrived Lathander and the result was Sune...and with Lathander being a part of the Talfiric pantheon then so became Sune...and so what Gray put forth is completely plausible given that time for gods (primordials) is much different...
Sigh ... please spare me the "time is different" argument, please. Fact is, it's NOT! When we have dates (down to months or days in some cases) for when gods die, rise, get butchered en masse and so on and so forth, when we have a lot of definitive correlations between this supposedly imperscrutable "divine time" and ... uh ... "mortal time" or whatever you want to call it, well, with all this data points we know that "divine time" either doesn't exist or for all intents and purposes it's the same as "mortal time" for what concerns sourcebooks.
So, when a sourcebook says that something divine happened "for some centuries" and then stopped and changed in a precise, fixed point in time (1358 DR) we can say with confidence that it happened between 359 DR and 1358 DR. Pending personal definitions of "some" each of us can try to narrow it down further, but without other informations it's just speculation.
Back to the topic at hand, this means that, for the birth and development of Sune to have had a meaningful impact on Selune power/station/influence and be the "relationship" we are looking for, it had to happen somewhen after ... oh ... 200 - 300 DR? Thus meaning Sune is a relatively young power.
What Gray put forth is completely plausible and sound, my own thoughts and ponderings are different but i'm not trying to shot down anyone else ideas since we're speculating here.
Sorry if this seems an angry rant, and apologies ksu_bond if i'm being too abrasive but i intensely dislike vague references to false "facts" being thrown around and feel that such cheap arguments only add useless noise to any discussion.
Sigh, that's probably too confrontational, i find it hard to translate emotions in writing and i don't want anyone to think i'm angry, just slightly annoyed. |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 21:22:35
For those concerned with timeline and cheapening the Dark Three...who's to say when Sune would have been born? We do know that Selune and Shar are two of the most ancient deities in the Forgotten Realms...Selune created the first and second sun along with all of the stars...in a manner of speaking she would have had a hand in creating Amaunator and Lathander (or at least aiding to their arrival in the Realms)...so who is to say that following the War of Light and Darkness Selune wasn't taken by the newly arrived Lathander and the result was Sune...and with Lathander being a part of the Talfiric pantheon then so became Sune...and so what Gray put forth is completely plausible given that time for gods (primordials) is much different... |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 21:19:18
What if Sune is an aspect of Selune left over after the Dawn Cataclysm? A portion of Sune's power lost in the tumult of that event as Selune, via her love for the Realms, tried to keep creation (or just Aumanator/Lathander) from falling apart.
Selune's time after wasn't spent under Sune so much as time recovering and time guiding this new aspect of herself into full godhood.
|
| Demzer |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 21:19:16
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I agree that making Sune a "newborn deity" seems to lessen the actions of the Dark Three. However, I also note that Faiths and Avatars states
"One power, Tyche, split into two deities, Beshaba and Tymora, and this occurrence has had precedent. When necessary, powers seem to be able to carve themselves into at least
two separate pieces, with at least one of the parts becoming an entirely different being."
Perhaps the original moon deity split herself into Selune and Sune. When this happened, perhaps her aspect that was into love was more powerful and protected her other astrological aspect. When might this have occurred? That would require research. Why might this have occurred? That's a good question, and the answer would revolve around whether the split was on purpose or as the result of interaction with another deity.
Eh, if i remember correctly it was Selune herself that split Tyche, upon detecting Moander's corruption of her (it's somewhere on the sourcebooks but i can't remember where i read it: Selune, Lathander and Azuth were all waiting for Tyche's return in her home plane, Selune detected Moander's presence and split Tyche with a bolt of energy).
The fact Selune was serving Sune "for some centuries" before 1358 DR seems to imply it was something that lasted way less than a thousand years.
Uhm, it can be that Selune had to weaken herself to expand in the Durpari region with the rising of her Lucha aspect in the Adama (either -256 when the belief started to see public recognition or -112 when it became state religion in Var the Golden). This meant that when her power waned (that may have had something to do with the Eye of Myrkul's phenomenon, a thing about which we know too little but i would love to know more) she was too weak to fend off her dark sister's attacks and protect her clergy and sought shelter in Sune's embrace. She recouped the losses and then some when Ao established that number of worshippers = power and got the boost from the durpari followers she had "invested in" so long ago.
I think cutting it too clearly and saying she was under Sune's guidance from -256 or -112 DR to 1358 DR is a bit too much, so something else had to happen to "force" her in a subordinate position. |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 19:59:13
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
"One power, Tyche, split into two deities, When necessary, powers seem to be able to carve themselves into at least
two separate pieces,
I always assumed this part from F&A was meant to refer to the tri-partite sun god of dawn, highsun and dusk, it never occured to me to consider Selune and Sune as part of this process (hmm off to ponder!)
Personally I much prefer Gray's previous post regarding Sune being a daughter of Selune and Latahander, and Selune 'serving' Sune by stepping asides whilst Selune was waxing into the full moon of her divinity.
Excellent thread this!
Cheers
Damian |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 19:37:58
I agree that making Sune a "newborn deity" seems to lessen the actions of the Dark Three. However, I also note that Faiths and Avatars states
"One power, Tyche, split into two deities, Beshaba and Tymora, and this occurrence has had precedent. When necessary, powers seem to be able to carve themselves into at least
two separate pieces, with at least one of the parts becoming an entirely different being."
Perhaps the original moon deity split herself into Selune and Sune. When this happened, perhaps her aspect that was into love was more powerful and protected her other astrological aspect. When might this have occurred? That would require research. Why might this have occurred? That's a good question, and the answer would revolve around whether the split was on purpose or as the result of interaction with another deity. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 13:20:14
My own theory is a bit different then Gray's, but it could shoe-horn with his because of the very nature of gods.
I think Selune split into Sune and Hanali Celanil (probably due to a mortal rising to the ranks of Exarch, and her granting them some portfolios, just as Gray surmised). At that level of power, there is no difference between 'giving birth' and creating whole-cloth from one's own essence (mythology is full of strange 'births').
Now, this means those two are separate beings, and yet are part of a greater whole (which also helps explain some of the 4e weirdness).
The funny thing is, this ties in directly to some of my etymology musing, where I have 'El' being the ancient fey word for Elf (literally, 'offspring'). 'Eld' would be the plural form (thus, Eldar/Elder/etc). So if Selune removed her 'elfy' bits, she may have literally removed the 'el' from her name and created Sune, and Hanali would have been that 'el' part.
Post-Spellplague, when magic was running amok, many of these self-aware aspects may have been forcibly re-joined for a time.
Just another theory, mind you. As I said, it could shoe-horn with Gray's, simply because deific procreation is very different (and varied) from how mortals handle such things. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 10:39:13
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
snipped for brevity
Great thoughts, as always.
Yet, i'm not convinced, probably because of my own pre-conceptions about Faerunian gods and pantheons or something like that.
Some of the points that don't sound right to me (this is purely personal speculation):
- Sune as a young deity: we have enough "less than 2000 years old deities", putting more and more of them in this category cheapens the Dark Three history and that's something i dislike, why? Because the Dark Three did all that they did after their ascension because they were upstart power-hungry ascended mortals new to godhood, so they butted heads with other deities, conspired to ruin Ao's weekend and so on and so forth. Putting more deities in their "new, young and experimentig" category cheapens their actions turning them into "3 of many" whereas they deserve to be "THE divine Trio" of myth and legend.;
- Sune as the daughter of deities: adding to the above, i think the fact that the human/main Faerunian Pantheon hasn't a lot of "daughter of this, son of that, grandpa of the uncle's sister's cousin's son" ecc... it's an interesting and appropriate twist of the different divine takes we see in mythology or other fantasy settings. Furthermore the impression i got from the FR Pantheon is that there is some sort of "non proliferation" rule probably enforced by Ao or the council of Greater deities or something, that forbids the conception and birth of purely and fully divine beings (meaning that if a deity wants to toy with his/her/its favorite mortals he/she/it can do so and make the offspring a Chosen/Exarch/Demipower/Quasideity/Immortal or whatever flavor of the lesser divine ranks suits you, but more than that and the Uber Divine Ban Hammer of Doom descends on the heads of the guilties to smite the newborn and maybe the parents too). In my view this would be an interesting twist, fits nicely with the whole "more Pantheons merging together, we can't have 2 of the same" and the kindred argument "1 portfolio element for 1 deity only, no clones/copies/replicants" thus preventing deities from just going on a rampage and flooding the planes with their easily manipulated toddlers. To add a bit of canonical hint of this: why Talos should provide convoluted ways for mortals to ascend to godhood and then exploit them if he can just mate with/rape Auril/Umberlee (just to stay comfortably at home, he could do the same to other deities but that will cause divine uproar probably) and exploit the newborn in the same way (or even feed on his essence at birth or crude, vile things like that)? Because then Ao would smite him with the Uber Divine Ban Hammer of Doom, obviously (to me).
Now, on to the portfolios conundrum: i caught myself in error more than one time thinking that since we have full access only to the Netherese pantheon (with portfolio elements and rough estimates of its "lifetime") then just checking that against the ones in Faiths & Avatars and Faiths & Pantheons would give me all the insight needed to judge divinely matters. The misconception here is thinking that the other pantheons (Talfiric/Rus/Chondatan ecc...) did nothing when things got mixed up after the Fall of Netheril and populations started merging together, so by this misconception Sune got the portfolio elements directly from Selune, while now i think the closer to truth possibility is that both had common portfolio elements and they settled their dispute peacefully (whereas Gargus/Garagos and Tempus clashed, Amaunator was phased out of worship by Lathander, Kyputitto and Talona killed off two cities to triumph, ecc...).
Chasing the portfolio elements down the rabbit hole, Shar (from Netheril) either gave birth to lots of deities (some alone, like Leira and Mask, some with someone else like Bhaal and Bane) or those deities came out on top in the multi-power-struggle that went on for some time during the years of pantheon merging upheaval.
Furthermore Jergal would've been "father" of Bane with Shar (hatred) and Kozah(!! strife) as the other parents, of Bhaal with Shar (murder) and of Myrkul with Selune (autumn) and Moander (!!!!!! parasites, corruption, decay). Now, without going ahead with the weird and stomach-turning imagery of an insectoid mating with a decaying rotting blob of unidentified matter under the moonlight, i think it's way better for everyone if the portfolios shake up is attributed to divine struggles and not divine mating (i'm still excluding the chance of both due to my view of divine birth, see above). This has the interesting side effect of letting our imagination run wild with divine battlefields on the Outer Planes and Jergal guiding the Dark Three on a wild scavenger trophy hunt to snatch power and portfolio elements from the dead or weakened deities (something that gets on well with the opportunistic nature of the Dark Three and with what little we know of Jergal: smart fellow, calculating, dark humor, bored and with scores to settle with all other divine beings that were stealing "his" souls). That's why the Dark Three have portfolio elements of other deities beside Jergal (Shar, Moander, Kozah, Selune) and that's why there are a lot of alliances/friendships and enmities among the gods that so far we have attributed to "human" feelings and relationships but may very well be born of the struggles of the Great Merging Times: so those that settled things peacefully stayed close and friendly (Sune and Selune for example), those that warred hate each other (Tempus and Garagos) and those that teamed up against the big boys/girls got on well for a time (Bane, Bhaal, Leira and Mask all got something from Shar and their ALLIES lists from Faiths & Avatars reflect this [for Bane: Bhaal and Mask among others; for Bhaal: Bane and Mask among others; for Leira: just Mask; for Mask: Bane, Bhaal, Leira and a few others]).
Anyway, that's what i think on the divine, for me things work better like this but that's not to discount the obvious merits of your insightful thoughts, Gray Richardson.
Back on topic: someone said something about a comic? Where? When? How? Any reference you can give, MrHedgehog? Anyone knows what he's talking about?
Thanks everyone for the great discussion thus far. |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 08:37:37
I LOVE IT!!! |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 07:23:38
My take on it is that Suné is actually Selūne's daughter or a fragment of her, which is for all intents and purposes the same thing. If we check Selūne's portfolio in the Netheril Box Set, you can see that before the Fall of Netheril it included Beauty, Love and Marriage, but that today it no longer does, as she has passed them on to her daughter, Suné.
My chronology dates Suné's birth to sometime between -339 DR and 700 DR, which is roughly contemporaneous with the greater scope of the time period that comprises the Dawn Cataclysm. Suné arose in the Talfiric proto-pantheon originally, before the pantheon merged with several others to form the greater Faerūnean pantheon, a process which took place over centuries but had begun to shake out by the Fall of Myth Drannor.
Suné's fiery hair points strongly to her father being Lathander, also of the Talfiric pantheon. Selūne, as one of the original creator goddesses of Realmspace, is actually a trans-pantheonic deity, with a presence or at least knowledge of her, to some degree (though not necessarily the same name or form), in many, if not most pantheons and cultures of Toril.
I surmise that, after Amaunator "set," and Lathander "rose," Lathander began a relationship with Selūne, and they had at least the one daughter, Suné (possibly other children too.) I am not sure if Lathander and Selūne were formally wed. It could have been just a torrid affair. Lathander is known for starting things, but not so much for sticking with them. But for all I know, Selūne might have been Lathander's official Queen Consort in the Pre-Greater-Faerūnean, Talfiric pantheon. Regardless of how long their relationship or marriage or consortship lasted, in godly time, it still could have lasted for several decades or centuries even. Even short flings among gods can last the duration of several lifetimes for mortal beings.
Likewise, Suné probably had a prolonged divine infancy and childhood. She might have also remained a child for decades (or centuries) but I imagine her mother was very doting during this period. And probably her father too, for a time. It was only natural for her mother to gift her with the portfolios of Beauty and Love when she blossomed into womanhood. Although, I tend to think she got the portfolio of Passion from her father.
It is, ironically, I think, the loss of his Passion that signalled the end of Lathander's relationship with Selūne. I feel certain that Selūne consoled herself by devoting her energies towards nurturing her daughter.
The sources characterize this period as Selūne "serving" Suné; but I rather think of it as her mother stepping out of the limelight to let her daughter shine. She served Selūne only as a nursemaid, caring mother, counselor and helpmate. Selūne is an incredibly ancient entity. She has known great power, which has waned repeatedly and waxed again with time. As the goddess of the moon, she is comfortable with the cyclical nature of her light, and was content to let her daughter eclipse her for a time.
I feel that surely all these relationships and the myths and details surrounding the family were very well known during the heyday of the Talfiric pantheon. The stories surrounding Lathander and Selūne (by whatever name she was known to the Talfirs) meeting, falling in love, having a child (or children) and all the ups and downs and lurid details of their falling out, would have been as well known in the early centuries of Dale Reckoning as the tabloid stories of our celebrities are known to us today (longer, even, than our tabloid stories last in common memory). But with all the chaos and tumult of the Dawn Cataclysm, the disappearance of the Talfirs as a distinct group with their absorption into the Greater Faerūnean culture, and with the passing of the centuries, these particular myths and relationships seem to have lost their currency.
Of course, alternatively, these myths could just be such well known facts within the myths of those respective deities that it's taken as common knowledge and just never comes up in the lore we see. I don't know if the answer then is that the lore is merely forgotten, or so well known that it escapes mention. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 05:20:12
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
From Faiths & Avatars page 135, 4th paragraph of the initial description:
"Before the Time of Troubles, Selune had served Sune for some centuries after being indipendent for millennia. After the Godswar, she went her own way again. Her relationship with Sune and Lliira is still extremely friendly and cooperative."
From Faiths & Pantheons page 56, 2nd paragraph of the "History/Relationships" section:
"Selune's power seems to be on the rise. Prior to the Time of Troubles, her potency had ebbed to the point that she was a servitor of Sune Firehair. In the last decade, however, she has once again branched out on her own, forging new alliances in her eternal battle against her dark sister."
It would be cool to get the Word of the Demiurge on this, of course. 
But in my own interpretation:
Selune stepped back and let Sune be the spokeswoman for a loose alliance of CG-ish deities, after giving one of her domains, probably because Firehair's attractiveness and drive made her well fit for being the "face" of a team, and she needed promotion early on. Meanwhile, Selune herself had a whole army of planetars billeting on Prime and all that, but her activities were mostly reduced to the support roles.
Which also allowed her to dedicate more efforts and resources to opposing and limiting Shar - and given that the latter still managed to pull stunts like the one described in "Temptation of Elminster", the advantage of having someone watching for this should have been obvious for other interested parties as well. Speaking of which, the promotion of Sune did pay off - with saving Sharess.
Now she have to feed herself, but the same applies to Shar. |
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