| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Oct 2013 : 16:56:16
Mask is the only deity I can almost say I like. All right, maybe "like" is stretching it, as I really hardly care for all the gods. But he's the one who doesn't make me roll my eyes involuntarily.
I welcomed his return. More mischief, more fun. I just don't like that it has to be Riven. I like Riven, and making him god almost surely decreases his future "novel time." And even if he'd be given much novel time as the previous books, I doubt I would appreciate the circumstances--he'd be too powerful to face anyone save his fellow gods. Being able to fix everything with a wave of a hand takes all the excitement away--is boring.
I would have liked it if Mask returned as himself--as Lessenor--and Riven stayed as, well, Riven the human assassin. Though I kinda guessed it would be Vasen, and that Riven, Cale, and Mags (with Orsin) would start anew.
What are your thoughts? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 10:35:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
Mask should have been given the credit for the murder of Bhaal and not Cyric. After all he was the sword that Cyric (as a mortal) used to backstab him with during the Time of Troubles.
Perhaps they can connect his return to that event in some way since the Tablets of fate are going to return.
The sword wasn't wielding itself. It was Cyric who did the stabbing.
The swords power (mask) killed Bhaal... I'd argue that Cyric could not have killed Bhaal without that sword (Mask). If I recal that was the explanation given in the Prince of Lies.
Cyric could not have killed Bhaal without divine assistance, which Mask provided. But Cyric was still the one holding the blade. If he'd've chosen to go elsewhere or not stabbed Bhaal, then Bhaal wouldn't have died.
The sword was a weapon. Weapons don't do anything if they aren't in someone's hand. Cyric's hand, Cyric's decision to stab, Cyric's action -- Cyric's kill.
Agreed. Imagine where we'll be if we start granting our kills to our intelligent weapons. Next they'll want the XP too. The humanity! 
But seriously, I agree.
Now, thanks for this thread, it clarified the issue a bit for me (and made me think more about my own multiverse-and-gods model). I can't really choose an option though, I'd say give the power to the original Mask, but that's just because he's the only character there that I really know. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 23:52:36
quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
Mask should have been given the credit for the murder of Bhaal and not Cyric. After all he was the sword that Cyric (as a mortal) used to backstab him with during the Time of Troubles.
Perhaps they can connect his return to that event in some way since the Tablets of fate are going to return.
The sword wasn't wielding itself. It was Cyric who did the stabbing.
The swords power (mask) killed Bhaal... I'd argue that Cyric could not have killed Bhaal without that sword (Mask). If I recal that was the explanation given in the Prince of Lies.
Cyric could not have killed Bhaal without divine assistance, which Mask provided. But Cyric was still the one holding the blade. If he'd've chosen to go elsewhere or not stabbed Bhaal, then Bhaal wouldn't have died.
The sword was a weapon. Weapons don't do anything if they aren't in someone's hand. Cyric's hand, Cyric's decision to stab, Cyric's action -- Cyric's kill. |
| dmgorgon |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 20:59:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
Mask should have been given the credit for the murder of Bhaal and not Cyric. After all he was the sword that Cyric (as a mortal) used to backstab him with during the Time of Troubles.
Perhaps they can connect his return to that event in some way since the Tablets of fate are going to return.
The sword wasn't wielding itself. It was Cyric who did the stabbing.
The swords power (mask) killed Bhaal... I'd argue that Cyric could not have killed Bhaal without that sword (Mask). If I recal that was the explanation given in the Prince of Lies.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 20:37:17
quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
Mask should have been given the credit for the murder of Bhaal and not Cyric. After all he was the sword that Cyric (as a mortal) used to backstab him with during the Time of Troubles.
Perhaps they can connect his return to that event in some way since the Tablets of fate are going to return.
The sword wasn't wielding itself. It was Cyric who did the stabbing. |
| dmgorgon |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 16:35:33
Mask should have been given the credit for the murder of Bhaal and not Cyric. After all he was the sword that Cyric (as a mortal) used to backstab him with during the Time of Troubles.
Perhaps they can connect his return to that event in some way since the Tablets of fate are going to return. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 09:04:44
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
[br Except that Meph was ganked by a quasideity (Riven) while in his own homeplane. Sure, Riven used the moment of surprise, but he still was only a quasi deity. If a quasi deity can do that to Meph on his home plane, a true demigod or higher would easily squish him. Meph even remembers the pain a hundred years later
And that 2nd most powerfull yugoloth was played with by Vhaerun in his own fortress.
There's a clear picture of the realtionship between deities and archfiends in Paul's books and it's not flattering for the archfiends.
Was Riven only a quasi diety? He was able to hear the prayers of faithful. That tells me he could possibly grant spells - something I believe only a Demi God or higher can do.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 08:40:22
Father-son duo in novels is weird? Maybe. But it's been done before. Pug and Magnus (though not FR) make up a "good" team. |
| skychrome |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 08:41:12
Before reading The Godborn, I was sure that Cale would become Mask.
In any case I voted "should have returned as himself" for the sake of future stories.
Because:
1) Cale is most fun as Chosen of Mask. Now that Riven is Mask, Cale will not pray to him and likely not be his chosen neither. So what will be his purpose?
Kind of weird imagining future novels with father and son together btw.
2) Riven will now not be part of the group anymore
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 01:48:11
I think its like Rome (or any other massive empire of your liking).
YES, you can exapnd out beyond your humble beginnings, but the further you reach, the 'thinner' your strength becomes, and it becomes easier fo everything to just fall apart. So yeah, they can grab a lot of power quickly (maybe), but they won't hold onto it for long.
The gods who have been around the longest - like the Vedic pantheon - use the 'slow and steady' approach to expansion; they enter a world, build and secure their power base, and after a few thosuand years, consider expanding to another world.
You stretch yourself too thin, and expand too quickly, you won't even have enough avatars to go around. Those can be further split into weaker manifestations, but that risks losing that power (to defeat by another local power, or even a mortal).
Picture a cup of sulfuric acid poured on your foot. OUCH. Now picture it being poured into the ocean, and you jump in. You don't even notice the acid. The more they split themselves up, the more 'diluted' (weaker) they become. They need to keep their power concentrated into areas where they know they have the most secure positions - anything else is a big risk.
Like I said, I think the generic (core) 'rule' is that any deity of the Prime Material Plane may start to attract followers on any world. That seems the be the case on many other planes (thinking about the archfiends right now). However, each world (sphere or layer) has its own, 'local' rules in-place, such as FR's godwall, which Ao has to allow deities through before they can emigrate (interlope). I don't think this is the natural (core) order of the multiverse - I think this is something he personally enforces just in Realmspace (which may be a hold-over from the godwar). If each sphere has its own 'guardian' (Overgod), then each is entitled to handle interloping as he sees fit.
Its like how we have federal, state, and local laws in the U.S. - thats how I see the multiverse working. Ao is little more then a 'traffic cop' in the greater scheme of things.
Most of these deities probably know each other from other worlds (and may even be in the same pantheons on those worlds), or even from the Great Wheel, which acts like a 'cosmic United Nations', of sorts. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 22:52:28
Deities can of course choose to travel *in person* to another plane, rather than deploy an avatar or proxy. By doing so they can manifest more power, yet also risk utter destruction and loss of their divinity.
What of powers such as, say, the Aztec pantheon, who are worshipped on one Prime but in fact are said to originate on an Alternate Prime? Or the Mulhorandi pantheon in the Realms, who were introduced through Egyptian peoples orignally from Earth? Or interloper deities like Tyr, Mielikki, Oghma, and Silvanus? Surely they can manifest on a Prime populated by their own worshippers, and if they can do so then why can‘t other deities gain the same benefit? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 16:30:53
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I stand by what I said earlier. There are several gods who live in Baator, including greater gods. There they would be their most powerful, not their least. Back in the day there was a Lords of the Nine write up which presented them all as having avatars - as would gods of some power. That way was better and less sloppy. A group of power hungry gods constantly struggling against each other to ascend in power in their plane and to extend their influence over other planes of the multiverse.
That's not a bad take - that 'The Nine' (and probably a few others) are the pantheon of hell itself.
Like any pantheon, they have a LOT of power within their sphere of influence, but relatively little outside of it.
I think part of the problem here is that we think of 'deities' as sphere(world)-only powers, but why can't there be gods of planes, or even dimensions? Whats the difference between a plane and a Crystal Sphere anyway? A sphere is just a plane with a whole lot of empty space separating the chunks of solid matter.
Not that I think thats entirely accurate - I think of the entire Prime Material as a shattered (Sundered?) plane. If thats the case, then the whole concept of 'multispheric' has to be looked at differently - if a god can be a deity of a plane, then any normal (D&D) deity should be 'a god' anywhere within the Prime, at full power (although outside of their sphere of influence, they are just 'running on batteries', and lose power quickly without followers to recharge them).
So a multispheric god like Ptah (or Corellon, etc) is most closely like an archfiend (or arch-whatever), in that they do not simply recognize a single piece of a plane as their 'home turf', they recognize the entire plane. Thus, the layers within a plane function much the same as individual worlds (spheres in PS parlance). A layer is really just a flat world. The further you move from your power-center, the faster you bleed energy (that you can't replace as easily). That's the 'home turf advantage' in a nutshell - even a clever weaker deity can beat a greater one, given enough time in their home domain. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 16:21:19
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I absolutely agree with this. After all, numerous gods make there homes on one of the layers of hell. If they could so easily squash the ruler and dominate the plane why not do it.
This isn't true anymore. All the gods are living in the divine domain of one of the Greater Gods. Remember that deities can only send avatars. If Mephistopheles is prepared, I doubt that any deity's avatar would easily defeat him.
To address your point more directly, I also think that all of the Nine Hells would temporarily ally against any outsider. The archdevils take pride in outscheming each other to gain power and eliminate rivals. They don't want any gods thinking they can come in and start changing the hierarchy. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 16:13:22
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
One of the (few) consistent rules of Powers is that they are much weakened when far away from their sources of power. Any deity native to the Nine Hells would be subservient to or allied with Asmodeus (in theory, at least), and any deity native to someplace else would be siginificantly weaker (and risk total destruction!) when in the Nine Hells, where of course Meph/Asmodeus are at their most powerful.
Except that Meph was ganked by a quasideity (Riven) while in his own homeplane. Sure, Riven used the moment of surprise, but he still was only a quasi deity. If a quasi deity can do that to Meph on his home plane, a true demigod or higher would easily squish him. Meph even remembers the pain a hundred years later
And that 2nd most powerfull yugoloth was played with by Vhaerun in his own fortress.
There's a clear picture of the realtionship between deities and archfiends in Paul's books and it's not flattering for the archfiends.
He's only keeping up with the changes WOTC has made. Having Asmodeus eat Azuth was important for a reason. They intended to definitively establish that archfiends aren't in the same league with gods.
Even more damning (from your perspective) is that Pharaun Mizzrym, who was a powerful drow archmage, but not absurdly so, destroyed this 2nd most powerful yugoloth (Inthracis) fairly easily in a spell battle. I can't fault Kemp for that though, because yugoloths have always been shunted aside in favor of demons and devils. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 16:13:22
In their fight in the Shadowfell, Riven admitted that he could not beat Mephistopheles because the latter had centuries of knowledge on how to wield superior powers, unlike Riven who just had barely a century. But I agree, I think Mephistopheles was shown rather poorly (power-wise) in the book. And Mirtek is right, homemade arrows should never scratched his skin, let alone pierced. (Gerak's arrows aren't only unlimited, they're also so powerful as to penetrate an archfiend's flesh! Ha!) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 04:12:09
I stand by what I said earlier. There are several gods who live in Baator, including greater gods. There they would be their most powerful, not their least. Back in the day there was a Lords of the Nine write up which presented them all as having avatars - as would gods of some power. That way was better and less sloppy. A group of power hungry gods constantly struggling against each other to ascend in power in their plane and to extend their influence over other planes of the multivers. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 00:17:51
Ah, the worlds of post-3E D&D have become such tame, uninteresting, blandly-predictable, politically-inoffensive, religiously-neutered places. Back in the 2E era we really had to show proper respect for fiends (and well, for anyone, really) when visiting their extra-planar demesnes! People knew how to behave when their host was Archleader Of Every Baatezu In The Universe. Sigh. End micro-rant. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 23:46:42
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
One of the (few) consistent rules of Powers is that they are much weakened when far away from their sources of power. Any deity native to the Nine Hells would be subservient to or allied with Asmodeus (in theory, at least), and any deity native to someplace else would be siginificantly weaker (and risk total destruction!) when in the Nine Hells, where of course Meph/Asmodeus are at their most powerful.
Except that Meph was ganked by a quasideity (Riven) while in his own homeplane. Sure, Riven used the moment of surprise, but he still was only a quasi deity. If a quasi deity can do that to Meph on his home plane, a true demigod or higher would easily squish him. Meph even remembers the pain a hundred years later
And that 2nd most powerfull yugoloth was played with by Vhaerun in his own fortress.
There's a clear picture of the realtionship between deities and archfiends in Paul's books and it's not flattering for the archfiends.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 23:31:19
One of the (few) consistent rules of Powers is that they are much weakened when far away from their sources of power. Any deity native to the Nine Hells would be subservient to or allied with Asmodeus (in theory, at least), and any deity native to someplace else would be siginificantly weaker (and risk total destruction!) when in the Nine Hells, where of course Meph/Asmodeus are at their most powerful.
Asmodeus does command the loyalty and obedience of every devil in the universe (in theory, at least), and Mephy answers to no one else (most of the time), so I agree that they should be able to prevail against any foolish god who dares intrude in their domains. Of course, they have little power in the Realms or most Primes, having to cultivate (and tolerate) religions and believers to gain enough power to compete against local deities. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 23:20:54
I absolutely agree with this. After all, numerous gods make there homes on one of the layers of hell. If they could so easily squash the ruler and dominate the plane why not do it. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 21:48:53
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Mephistopheles and Asmodeus may not be “true“ gods, but I‘m inclined to think they command sufficient power to destroy gods. Much depends on which point in canon timelines is considered, and which particular game rules might apply.
And which author is currently writing.
In Kemp's books archfiends can't hold a candle to even the weakest of deities.
Vhaerun was able to just toy with the 2nd most powerfull yugoloth and casually promise him to destroy the most powerfull for him if he behaves.
Mephi was freaking out over attaining a piece of the divine spark of a quasi deity like it was the best thing since sliced bread and believed it enough to make Asmo tremble in his fortress (unfortunately Azuth fell into Asmo's lap too shortly thereafter).
I personally don't like Kemp's treatment of archfiends. Although I very much like his treatment of even the weakest of godlings, I think that archfiends should also be classified as demi- to greater deities (with most falling into the demi- to lesser deity level) in their own right.
IMO as the lord of the eight Mephi should possess the power of an intermediate deity himself and don't need to thirst for the crumbs of a quasi deities divine spark.
Also Mephi being hurt by arrows from Gerak? Really? A huntsmen from some backwater village with his homemade bow?
Yes, he was just forcefully ejected by Aumanator from an embrace by Shar, but still some homemade arrows should just bounce of him without as much as irritating him (being stabbed by Weaveshear, now that's something I can buy bothering him in his weakened state).
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 07:19:34
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Just please - please! - don‘t permit that bumbling idiot Cyric be the one who successfully claims this exalted prize.
Ah, no. Cyric would be busy "dancing" with Bhaal, now that he's back. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 01:33:07
Mephistopheles and Asmodeus may not be “true“ gods, but I‘m inclined to think they command sufficient power to destroy gods. Much depends on which point in canon timelines is considered, and which particular game rules might apply. My understanding is that Meph does possess some divine power/rank/whatever, indirectly seized from Mask/Shar, and of course Asmodeus subsumed Azuth‘s power (whatever that‘s worth in a post-Mystra setting), though I may be wrong.
Regardless, there certainly are godly agencies with sufficient power to demote/destroy Riven, Rivalen, Mask, and each other. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 01:01:03
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ah, well. D&D giveth, and D&D taketh away. Riven needs not remain a god, his divine station could be lost as “easily“ as it was obtained. Especially given that competing Powers have asserted their interests, not the least of these being Shar and Mephistopheles.
Just please - please! - don‘t permit that bumbling idiot Cyric be the one who successfully claims this exalted prize.
Meph really isn't a threat to a true God. Even Asmodeus would not have been a threat to Azuth if he he'd not fallen into his living room near dead on a silver platter. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Oct 2013 : 23:28:37
Ah, well. D&D giveth, and D&D taketh away. Riven needs not remain a god, his divine station could be lost as “easily“ as it was obtained. Especially given that competing Powers have asserted their interests, not the least of these being Shar and Mephistopheles.
Just please - please! - don‘t permit that bumbling idiot Cyric be the one who successfully claims this exalted prize. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Oct 2013 : 23:13:13
Ah, well. D&D giveth, and D&D taketh away. Riven needs not remain a god, his divine station could be lost as “easily“ as it was obtained. Especially given that competing Powers have asserted their interests, not the least of these being Shar and Mephistopheles.
Just please - please! - don‘t permit that bumbling idiot Cyric be the one who successfully claims this exalted prize. |
| Euranna |
Posted - 21 Oct 2013 : 20:53:50
I voted that he come back as himself, really because I love Riven and Cale doing stuff together as well. As well as the lack of seeing the big picture that Mask's portfolio seems to require. He was having a hard time making a plan for stopping Shar, and Cale in a way is the one that sorta pushed the plan to completion. I am glad that Mask is back, and if it is Riven, I have a feeling that Riven is gone..just like Cale said "Riven is gone...he is Mask".
Now, what is going to happen in the next 3 books Paul is contracted for, it is anyone's game. Though is Cale is with his son the paladin, well..that will be....weird...
I believe that it is mentioned also that Cale has lost his god. I am not sure if he is a priest or Chosen any longer. Obviously Riven is not the 2nd/Left hand of Mask anymore. Those plot points may have come to a conclusion (?).
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 18 Oct 2013 : 17:26:41
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I voted he should have returned as himself.
This just goes to prove that the name of a god is more like a 'job', then an actual individual. Many folks could wear the hat over the years, and most mortals would be none-the-wiser.
Overall, I think of him as just Mask again, and Riven is kind of being absorbed and the last of his humanity is fading the moment he gave his girls to Gerak.
That's the worst scenario, I think. Seeing Riven once in a long while is bad enough, having him "erased" is, again, the worst. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 01:48:49
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Meh. Even Mystra still has the memories of Midnight, and sometimes even acts according to her "human impulses."
Perhaps over time the human memories/personality of an ascended deity erodes, fades away, though I doubt it would be totally erased. And if such were the case, then that means we "totally" lost Riven.
Oh, and I can't believe my eyes! Option 1 is winning! 
I'd definitely say the Mystra/Midnight situation is different. Mystra didn't merge with Midnight, Midnight was given Mystra's portfolio after her death then went about learning what she could of the old Mystra(from Azuth/Chosen/Magisters, etc.). |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 18:16:46
quote:
Originally posted by MrsDrasek
But Vasen would not have made any sense to me.
Anyone from Cale's company would have made sense still, save Gerak. Vasen "burned out" all of Amaunator's light, a consequence for momentarily weakening Shar and Mephistopheles. And he's the least developed and not quite part of the original "company." Even if Lessenor gains full control of his "body" and totally wipes out Vasen's memories and personality, the blow to the fans would not have been that hard. |
| MrsDrasek |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 17:34:47
I'm having a really hard time with the vote on this one. I do like Mask and Riven is one of my favorites. I guess I was ok with it, however I hope it does not diminish his (Riven's) novel time. I really like the whole team kept in tact. I admit I was surprised that it was not Cale but Vasen would not have made any sense to me. I can't wait to see where all this goes in the future. |
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