| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Demzer |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 10:55:05
Hey all, i have a strange request today: are there any examples/evidencies of crossbreeding between the following races (ignore the obvious ones like human+orc and focus on the weirder ones like centaur+anything)?
Human
Halfling
Half-elf
Half-orc
Elf
Gnome
Dwarf
Orc
Goblinoid (goblins and hobgoblins)
Gnoll
Centaur
If yes, can you point me to them? If not, do you think some of these may happen?
The reason i ask is because in my home campaign since 20 Nightal 1373 in Thay the various races that served in the army are given full citizenship after 10 years of service. The change is retroactive and this means a bunch of orcs, gnolls, centaurs and goblinoids will (among other things) have the right to own slaves and we all know "things" happen with slaves so i'm wondering if Thay would become some sort of freakshow weird halfbreed circus given time (well, more than in the past, that is).
Note: before i start messing with Savage Species i would like your counsel on what is possible and what is too unbelievable, keep in mind we are talking about "natural" breeding, not mad trasmuters doing things (they're there but that's another matter). |
| 7 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Demzer |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 10:41:21
Thanks Wooly!
On the subject of half-dwarves: we have the D'tarig of Anauroch too (human + dwarf).
Elves and half-elves are indeed too rare and expensive to have a chance of weird offsprings appearing even if the goblinoid/orc/gnoll somehow succeeds in getting his hands on an elven or half-elven lady.
I think a lot of human/goblinoids offsprings will see the light and the obvious half-orcs will steadily increase.
Any weird half-dwarf child (if even dwarfblins or dworcs were possible) could spark bloodshed given the hatred between dwarves and orcs/goblinoids.
Gnomes are too few to matter and Songfarla is well hidden so no chance of crossbreeds there.
Halfblings or quartergoblins may be an option with halfling slaves and goblinoids masters.
Gnolls are difficult to imagine interbreeding with the others: probably there will be rare gnorcs, gnoblins or even half-gnolls but not in large numbers.
Centaurs can probably crossbreed only with humans or feys, maybe elves, but i don't think there will be a lot of centaur-something couples around or that centaurs have any need for slaves. Maybe the gnolls are animal-like enough to give rise to gnolltaurs, something like a hyena headed wemic.
Note: i apologize if i sounded too blunt and aggressive in the previous post, i have nothing against anyone coming in and saying my take on Thay is utterly rubbish and i'm not worthy of this halls, i simply don't feel any need to justify my choices but i can explain them if someone has any questions. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 04:42:43
From a prior discussion...
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Interesting, but as I recall, while dwarves CAN interbreed with humans, the offspring tend to be sterile, and are hence called (somewhat derogitorily, I believe) "mules". I think that came from some 3.5 Eberron lore, or some such, but it would stand as "standard" for ALL D&D lore, I think. I do recall there being ONE half-dwarf/elf, and that was Drannor, for whom Myth Drannor was supposedly named, according to the 2nd ed book "Cormanthyr". apperantly, he was the product of the first (and likely ONLY) elf/swarf union.
There's more than that one. There are two named ones that I know of, and references to others.
Of the named ones, one was Isinghar "Feyrune" Ironstar, described as a dwelf runecarver and archmage of Ammarindar, who was one of the secondary casters in the raising of the mythal over Myth Glaurach. This is from the Myth Glaurach article that was part of the Mintiper's Chapbook series.
The other named dwelf was Dlarbraddath. We don't know if that was his actual name; we just know that a section of Myth Drannor was "named for the gardener who laid it out, a being said to have an elven mother and a dwarven father!" (page 19, Campaign Guide to Myth Drannor, Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set). I think it more likely he was named Dlarbradd.
The Myth Glaurach article also notes, in the footnotes, that
quote:
Dwarf-elf crossbreeds, known as "dwelf" in the singular and "dwelves" in the plural, are noted as having been common in the days of Eaerlann in FR11 Dwarves Deep, p. 6.
Page 6 of Dwarves Deep says:
quote:
Humans, gnomes, and halflings are cross-fertile with dwarves. Elminster says elves and dwarves can have issue as well. Common in Ardeep, Eaerlann, and Myth Drannor of old, this is unheard-of today.
and
quote:
"Half-dwarves" are not a distinct race. Save for their height (a head taller than most dwarves) all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look and act (and are treated in the rules) as pureblood dwarves. Dwarven halfbreeds always have the stocky build and hirsute appearance of purebloods.
There's no notation there about half-dwarves in the Realms being sterile. I think that you're conflating Dark Sun's muls with half-dwarves of the Realms. Muls are sterile, as I recall, and they are also half-dwarves -- but they're also specific to Dark Sun.
We also have this particular bit from Steven Schend, as well:-
quote:
Dwelves....okay, I'll stop myself early before I start doing haiku about stone shelves and dungeon delves....
As stated above (and like half-elves), they favor and adopt the lifestyle/culture under which they are raised. Same goes for which gods they revere.
Both elves and dwarves have serious cognitive dissonance when it comes to dwelves, as (unlike half-elves or half-orcs, IMO) there's no set form or expectation for how they'll look. It's anyone's guess if you'll end up with a dwarf's body size and shape with elven features and ears or an elf's body but stocky vs. svelte and rather hairier than the norm. Dwarven parents may mourn their child's inability to grow a decent beard, thanks to their elven half, while elves may grumble that the child is more interested in the dirt rather than the tree from which it springs. Most likely, they're only comfortable among some societies that embrace acceptance and unity (like Myth Drannor or Miyeritar or elsewhere).
That said, I was surprised by that Myth Glaurach note. Methinks I'll have to talk to Eric and find out what else he's had the Blackstaff up to while I've not been watching....if only for my own curiousity, of course.
Steven
(and some day I'll tell y'all about the Pentad, an alliance of the churches of five gods of four races...but not today, as only three dwelves worshiped among them, and none of them reached high priest stage or any ranking of note)
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| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 03:53:18
Elves and half-elves are rare breed of slaves in Thay, and every expensive at that. In fact, I know only one one who used to own an elf slave: Maligor. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 15:30:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I didn't know you could breed crosses...
Vampires must HATE that.
Oh yes! The latest experiments involving a silver/garlic alloy were successful!
Ahem, now, onto the big question of "How could THAT happen in Thay?!?" let me first say this
DISCLAIMER: for me the politics of Thay, the behaviour of the Red Wizards and of the Zulkirs and their canonical endeavors have always been one of the worst and lamest thing ever. I always regarded the fact that a nation ruled by supposedly genius individuals acted like dumb idiots as one of the biggest mysteries of the Realms. Since this is something i feel strongly about, i warn you that whatever anyone might say here there is not a single chance i will change my mind about this matter and we will have to agree to disagree. That said, feel absolutely free to comment, shoot down and demolish the following as you see fit, i don't mind.
Simply put, the Zulkirs are not the rulers of Thay anymore. A renegade Red Wizard Spellfire Wielder (yep, the same one that may or may not confront the Simbul in a spellbattle) has been a thorn in their side from early 1360s with highly focused and devastating attacks directed against the most uselessly cruel tutors of young Red Wizards and against those whose plots endangered the highest number of Red Wizards lives. Outside of Thay the Chosens know of him but both Mystra and Azuth told them to stand by and wait, other powerful practitioners of magic know and fear him because he usually applies overwhelming magical force (fire and flames) to achieve his goals. When in 1370 DR magical flames consumed Nevron and most of his apprentices while inside one of his towers, the Zulkirs decided that they had to do something, fast. When they gathered to decide what to do he showed up, explained his plans for Thay and demanded obedience. Szass Tam disagreed and lost his body, Druxus Rhym, Lallara, Mythrellaa and Yaphill agreed to help him further his goals that in part matched their own, Lauzoril agreed with his plans for Thayan expansion and Aznar Thrul agreed looking to exploit the newbie against Tam. As time passed Szass Tam was isolated and lost two more bodies before a former adventuring companion of the renegade Red Wizard stole Tam's phylactery and gave it to his old friend. With Tam on a leash and the other Zulkirs willing to help and fearful of confronting him, the new Supreme Zulkir (bad and unimaginative name, looking for something better) started turning Thayan society upside down but always with the Red Wizards on top. Without unnecessary cruelties against the apprentices and with less tolerated backstabbing in the higher ranks, the number of Red Wizards started to rise steadily and many not thorougly evil individuals made it past apprenticeship. With a solid base of loyal (grateful and/or fearful) Red Wizards doing his bidding and with his own iron fist, by the end of 1373, the Supreme Zulkir of Thay started to reshape the country in a war machine for an unnamed conflict of epic proportions coming in the near future that no one (mortal) knows anything about yet. In this context, winning the loyalty of the humanoids of Thay as the backbone of the army is of the utmost importance (just having them cowering in fear is not enough for the war the Supreme Zulkir is expecting to fight).
Now, back to crossbreeding:
The majority of slaves in Thay are humans, with halflings and half-orc as minorities. I don't think centaurs are able to crossbreed with any of the races on the list, but i may be wrong. Gnolls too are a big question mark, i think they're too canine to produce offsprings with humans and demihumans but i don't know about the goblinoids and orcs.
Anyway, since humans make up the majority of slaves and are famously (or infamously) crossfertile with just about anything i think there is a good chance of seeing half-gnolls and half-goblinoids in Thay's future. This is not meant to be a Red Wizard experiment, nor it is aimed at creating hordes of half-somethings. I am just wondering about the possibilities of future "natural" hybrids. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 13:41:14
elves and half-elves are a rare slave in Thay due to their tendency towards magic use. Also, many odd breeding experiments were already being performed by the red wizards in order to produce a better breed of orc.
What most surprises me is your having the red wizards provide higher status for beings who serve in the military. Why on earth would they do this (I ask because of how worried they are about purity of the ruling race of Thay)? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 13:34:13
I didn't know you could breed crosses...
Vampires must HATE that.
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| Lord Bane |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 12:27:52
I am interested in how the Zulkir in their "mulan supremist" mindset allowed the citizenship to happen.
I donīt see them lightly granting "tools" the right to possess slaves that may be of mulan ancestry, so i am curious about how that came to be in your home campaign.
Aside that, it would depend on who is the slave owner, meaning what race and that also means what mindset he has in first place. Social upbringing and believes factor into it.
A human may be less inclined to breed with a hobgoblin while an orc would have not so much reservations about it.
Humans,halflings,half-elves, elves, dwarves, gnomes, orcs goblinoids and gnoll i could see breed, of course depending on who is the master and who the slave. Centaur i would see a bit more seperate, granted some races may or may not attempt it but in less large numbers. |
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