| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| blade020877 |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 12:10:26
First my background to understand why I could have to change gods.
I am a high level cleric of torm which was part of the purple dragons of cormyr (officer)
We play 3.5 rules but with 4th edition history. We played it that as huge magical battle and got caught in a status like form and 100 years passed.
Got back into purple dragons, tried to understand new cormyr as now an empire and conquerors.
Was on a mission to protect prince erzoured obarskyr (bad Guy)of the royal family to the dales (Dales are all independent, no sembia or shade so no one controls any of the dales)
As I was to project the prince erzoured I was with him when he had a meet with dales leaders he told the dales surrender a seat on the council or cormyr will not help them fight a giant army that in in the dales.
As a lawful good cleric of torm I wasn’t happy with this at all, some of the dales were allies of cormyr in the pass, my way of thinking is we should have helped full stop.
So I went to my commander and told him I am out of the purple dragons, he told me I am under arrest
But I left and I have been on the run.
After that the prince has told everybody I betrayed cormyr, all purple dragons are to kill me on sight
Plus my family was arrested, and then some one looking like me broke into the jail and killed 6 purple dragons and took my family. So I got the blame for that
I was in a town in the dales when I see a boy belong to my family and went to him (I know it was a trap but I had to help him) I found out he was poisoned. Then a group with close ties to the prince attacked me. I just about got away.
My first goal is to help get rid of the giants army in dales
So my long term plans are rebellion, propaganda, sabotage and all-out war with cormyr, clean out the evil in cormyr and return it to a good nation. Can’t go in to details of plans as other pc’s are reading this lol
My dm think I should change to hoar as god of vengeances but hoar is with bane now and that wouldn’t sit well with my pc, anybody got any idea of a god that would suite me, I am a good pc but know I have to get my hands dirty (not evil acts) if I am going up against very powerful nation
|
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| portose_sharpe |
Posted - 15 Apr 2015 : 20:37:42
Encase anyone wants to know, the Cleric was taken by the bad a epic leshay sorc, and they was using his soul to empower spells and stuff he was rescued by his "friends" that he turned his back on. the group found out about this leshay who was using the prince to her own needs, the group managed to show the leshay in her true form to the cormyr nobles and royals, a battle insued and her ran for it . . . .
many many many things happened inbetween the game lasted for 2 years real time :) once a week |
| blade020877 |
Posted - 02 Oct 2013 : 03:10:03
stop giving him ideas lol
we met a high noble from cormyr in the game which charters the powerful group that poisoned the kid and attacked me, this same noble close friend to the prince and rumors of close ties in other things.
i would say the prince gave the orders to do it that's it.
thats why i am pointing at the prince ( plus its a prick too lol)
the big problem i have with what the prince did was, he gave a price to save people of the the dales.
my duty is to protect all good beings of realm, thats in torm's words (dogna). so my plan is to help them without them having to give up anything.
what the prince did was give the dales an ultimatum plain and simple,
seat or get over run with evil army.... thats what i saw
and p.s. dm if he is not evil i am so going to kill you lol
|
| portose_sharpe |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 22:11:58
indeed they do :) a mine field |
| Therise |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 22:06:09
quote:
Originally posted by portose_sharpe
hello therise
in the game, his pc was branded a traitor and all his wealth he has in cormyr was seized by the crown, his family are a low ranking noble without many connections, and he had given them money to rebuild there home, but since it was his money the king seized it.
the offical story released by the crown was there was held for questioning, about the pc and the money. not actually arrested. and they was placed in a nice holding prison for their own safe being.
and you are right other that his feelings and thoughts.and the prince being a d**k he has nothing to say the prince was involved, like he has no evidence to tie the prince to anything.
i think he main reason for assuming the prince is behind all this, is the way the prince for better use for a word "bullied" the dales into accepting a deal, to allow cormyr troops into the dales to help defend them against an army looking to invade the dales. and in exchange cormyr now has some power in the running of the dales.
ATM in our game cormyr is setting up troops trying to block the invading army from entering the dales.
Ah, okay. Interesting. So it might have been the Prince's agents who broke the family out of jail, kidnapped them, and poisoned the boy, or it could be any number of other anti-Crown nobles in Cormyr who have a secret agenda and want to focus attention away from themselves and onto this situation.
Seems like it's even more imperative to find out who actually is now secretly holding the family kidnapped. If it's the Prince, there's some evidence, but if not then there's another faction operating here with yet another agenda. And Cormyrean nobles have all sorts of agendas up their sleeves, heh.
|
| portose_sharpe |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 20:53:41
hello therise
in the game, his pc was branded a traitor and all his wealth he has in cormyr was seized by the crown, his family are a low ranking noble without many connections, and he had given them money to rebuild there home, but since it was his money the king seized it.
the offical story released by the crown was there was held for questioning, about the pc and the money. not actually arrested. and they was placed in a nice holding prison for their own safe being.
and you are right other that his feelings and thoughts.and the prince being a d**k he has nothing to say the prince was involved, like he has no evidence to tie the prince to anything.
i think he main reason for assuming the prince is behind all this, is the way the prince for better use for a word "bullied" the dales into accepting a deal, to allow cormyr troops into the dales to help defend them against an army looking to invade the dales. and in exchange cormyr now has some power in the running of the dales.
ATM in our game cormyr is setting up troops trying to block the invading army from entering the dales.
.
. |
| Therise |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 18:01:54
quote:
Originally posted by blade020877
my family was arrested and jailed. lands and keep taken from them too because when i came back (100 years trip) i found my family but were in a bad way. keep nearly in ruins. so sold magical items to help them recover. plus a child from my family was poison as used as bate to get me in the open.
I know you said they were arrested, jailed, and then later broken out and captured. But what were the actual charges? Unless things have changed dramatically for your world, Cormyr can't just arrest everyone from a given family - and they can't seize property - without solid evidence and a trial. In the past, there have been traitors from even noble Cormyrean families and the Crown can't just arrest everyone and take an ancestral seat or titles without a trial.
Also, just thinking out loud here... is there any possibility at all that a third or fourth party might be involved in capturing your family or poisoning your relative? What if it isn't the Prince or his agents, but someone else who has something to gain here?
quote:
i notice a lot of talk about alignment, read up on grey gaurds... they have to be lg and look at what they do. alignments its a guide line i believe for pc's.
For most classes, alignment generally is a guide. But there are special considerations for paladins and priests because they can lose powers, even certain class privileges, with changed alignment and beliefs. Even with Grey Guards and Shadowbane classes, you -still- can't breach the most important parts of your dogmatic code, religious oaths, or go against your deity in serious ways without regular Atonements and Communing. These are rules for "gray morality" sorts of games, but it can still be an incredibly fine line to walk such that you don't end up shifting alignment and losing spells or abilities.
I'd say the biggest challenge for your character right now is obtaining some concrete evidence, which can then be used to convince allies to join your cause. You might find that convincing the other players in the game to join your cause would be the most powerful thing you could do. Seek them out, show them evidence. Your entire church can't be corrupt, so seek out potential allies there and create political division within the church. Gain spies that are close to the Prince himself, things like that.
|
| sfdragon |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 17:45:36
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
What? I've found both Shadowbane PrCs underpowered compared to the Gray Guard.
might be that I also never liked the grey guard and prefer skulking around in the shadows too......
and ummmm there is also that feat that allows you to use true smite or something that allows you to smite against everybody....( required smite good or smite evil, wonders if smite law/chaos would work as I don't think that smite the badguy{ smite infidel} would work)
just doesnt remember the name of the book..... always wanted to say it was emeplers of evil....... |
| blade020877 |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 11:50:43
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_guard |
| Diffan |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 06:00:14
What? I've found both Shadowbane PrCs underpowered compared to the Gray Guard. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 05:40:33
if you're using 3.x rules.
Shadowbane Inquisitor .... and shadowbane Stalker.....
grey guard blows in comparison. |
| blade020877 |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 03:24:20
my family was arrested and jailed. lands and keep taken from them too because when i came back (100 years trip) i found my family but were in a bad way. keep nearly in ruins. so sold magical items to help them recover. plus a child from my family was poison as used as bate to get me in the open.
so tactics of cormyr (prince or his allies) are evil in my eyes.
i am an outcast at the moment of the church in cormyr.
the more i have been thinking apart my plans i have got a bit side tracked.... i should go with my first plan ( wasnt really my plan it was someone from in here helped me)
i notice a lot of talk about alignment, read up on grey gaurds... they have to be lg and look at what they do. alignments its a guide line i believe for pc's.
while this post has been going i thought i read up torm dogna, history
and role of the church plus alignments.
Journey to Tantras, one of the cities of Vesperin, Make common cause with the Pontiff there and inform him of the dire situation. Convince him that he needs to send aid to the Dalesfolk to preempt Cormyrian opportunism. Do what is necessary to win him over.
goal here is to get help to the Dalesfolk
and in return help him after with the demon cult problem they have |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 01:36:02
Well clearly has been outcasted already by local clergy.
There are things that bother me about the claims made. One thing we as outsiders must remember. There are House rules in place. |
| Therise |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 01:17:53
quote:
Originally posted by blade020877
quote:
Sorry Blade. It's just that your actions and methods (while relatively good and noble in ultimate final intent) do not at all match with lawful good - or even neutral good. I can't see that the -actions- involved would be Torm-approved. Remember: beliefs and intent are one thing, but priests and paladins are measured by their actions... both by their gods, and by people in general.
thanks for the post therise, but remember i have done nothing yet, i have couple of ideas, asked which is good or bad.as my pc see it i need to help the people of the dales and i am not asking for seat or gold. at this point in game the only thing that has happened i left then i get framed for murder and my family kidnapped. and all finger point at the prince and he close allies
but i think like a lot of posts in the forum gets side tracked from the first question.
who could i change too to fit or do i?
dm says hoar i agree to a point, the problem i have with hoar is that he is bane's buddy now and i want to stay good, but if i change it looks like i joined banes minion.
there was one other thing i was thinking of was get a feat that allows my aglinment change to cg but allows to stay under torm ( cant remember the feat) hectic something.
You may be thinking of the Heretic of the Faith feat from 3.5E Power of Faerun. It allows (for a Cleric) up to 2-steps of divergent alignment from your deity. It doesn't exactly protect you from divine retribution or loss of spells per your deity's decision, though, or offer any protection from excommunication by your church. If the heresy is particularly divergent, you can be considered one of the False in the afterlife if you die. Lots to think about, really.
Also, to take this feat and become a heretic, you should define the exact nature of the heresy you're promoting (i.e. specific beliefs which challenge tenets of Torm's dogma). This is important because the feat prompts a leadership check. If you fail the leadership check, you lose followers because they don't agree with your novel religious teachings. It cannot simply be about politics or choices that royal leaders have made, it has to be heretical religious beliefs to the standard, accepted faith of Torm.
Thing is, I'm not sure you'd technically qualify as a heretic, as you're not (yet) advancing any specific dogma or off-kilter religious beliefs of your own that challenges Torm's dogma. You've essentially become a rebel, or dissentor, from your church and your oaths of service to the Crown.
I don't know your house rules, or a lot of what has actually transpired in your game, so consider the differences between heresy (publicly offering new religious beliefs that are contrary to accepted dogma), blasphemy (publicly showing irreverence and disagreement with church officials for their beliefs and interpretations), and apostasy (publicly renouncing your god and church because your beliefs have been negated in some way). Heresy is an insult to your god. Blasphemy is an insult to church officials. Apostasy is an insult to both.
Out of curiosity, why were your family members arrested after you deserted the prince? Were they actually arrested, or just brought in temporarily for questioning?
|
| blade020877 |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 22:22:15
quote:
Sorry Blade. It's just that your actions and methods (while relatively good and noble in ultimate final intent) do not at all match with lawful good - or even neutral good. I can't see that the -actions- involved would be Torm-approved. Remember: beliefs and intent are one thing, but priests and paladins are measured by their actions... both by their gods, and by people in general.
thanks for the post therise, but remember i have done nothing yet, i have couple of ideas, asked which is good or bad.as my pc see it i need to help the people of the dales and i am not asking for seat or gold. at this point in game the only thing that has happened i left then i get framed for murder and my family kidnapped. and all finger point at the prince and he close allies
but i think like a lot of posts in the forum gets side tracked from the first question.
who could i change too to fit or do i?
dm says hoar i agree to a point, the problem i have with hoar is that he is bane's buddy now and i want to stay good, but if i change it looks like i joined banes minion.
there was one other thing i was thinking of was get a feat that allows my aglinment change to cg but allows to stay under torm ( cant remember the feat) hectic something.
|
| blade020877 |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 21:16:23
have to say you made to laugh there.....
quote:
this is why I wasn't going to get involved in this post because blade you only listen to what you want to hear and attack anyone who doesn't agree with you, but seen that the other pcs were brought into it on several occasions I wasn't staying quite anymore.
you forgot laughing face at the end#!
we are the most Opinionated group in europe, this is called a debate,
jesus calling the kettle back????!!!
so confused with loyal and blind??!!
quote:
Now the decussions about the prince, we all now the type of person he is but he is still royalty and it is our duty to obey( unless its outright evil, I maybe LN but I do have honour) even when we all have our doubts about him. From what I have read many of the posts mention that we other pcs are yes men ( can't copy and post on this dam phone) or something along those line. The fact is we all had run ins with him, one of mine was when he had his lackies start to order around the purple dragons when we were traveling to the Dales. I confronted the prince informing that it broke protacal and hinders our job in protecting him, this lead to one of his regular sparing exabitions with other pc officers which he found amusing ( Muppet).
so you dont like the prince but then he brought your loyalty by handing you title of warlord to him ( part of his class he needs) you really liked him then??!!!:)
as i said already i went to say goodbye and he pulled his sword. so i let the prince kill me then??
yes i got charmed because i told to go over and pick up the key that charmed me... thats my fault??? your right i did attack the group but then i heal everybody back up. we ran with our tails between our legs.
that was the dm been nice to you incase i did kill you, as far as i know if only paladins that lose there powers if been charmed into doing something bad??? ( god i should have killed the lot of you, would have stopped a lot of the crap we dealing with now haha)
last time you get free tickets to roger waters the wall
 |
| portose_sharpe |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 20:48:46
if funny you say Talos and that was the first god i thought of when this all started, because of the fact he is the god of chaos and rebellion, which at the time was the pcs end goal,
i like the idea of talos or another god using him, and guiding him down the wrong path while allowing the pc to go with this ideas however netual/evil they may be. and in turn the god gaining a powerful cleric in his ranks.
btw i have said it already but some great posts guys n girls, both sides of the fence :)
|
| Therise |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 20:20:13
Sounds like this is escalating a little quickly.
After the latest round of reveals, I'll just drop in here to say that "neutral good" doesn't quite seem accurate. The priest is definitely acting in a "chaotic" manner, and even "good" is rather shaky at this point. I think I'm ultimately going to side with your DM on this one - this story has the flavor of someone who has some noble-intended goals but is being rather chaotic about meeting those goals. And chaotic good (or even chaotic neutral) is a fine flavor of alignment. The lawful good "What Would Torm Do?" really doesn't match up with the priest's story or goals at this point. So yeah, I'll side with the DM who has suggested both an alignment shift and a deity switch.
Sorry Blade. It's just that your actions and methods (while relatively good and noble in ultimate final intent) do not at all match with lawful good - or even neutral good. I can't see that the -actions- involved would be Torm-approved. Remember: beliefs and intent are one thing, but priests and paladins are measured by their actions... both by their gods, and by people in general.
That said, there's nothing wrong with having an alignment change or a deity change for a cleric, as long as the roleplaying is FUN and has some logical consistency. It sounds like you've all got a pretty fun and politically complicated game (my favorite kind!), but that the priest character is a little mixed up in his methods vs. his intent.
That's not a jab at the player, by the way, just a note that the -character- has some definite issues to work through in understanding action vs. intent and perhaps accidentally causing grief and additional bad things to happen in a rather chaotic pursuit of something noble-minded.
If I were that player, I'd take a step back and think about:
a) the division this is causing in group play.
b) the consequences of what his character is doing for the region. Noble intentions that end in bad consequences ultimately are judged as bad by deities.
I'd suggest a story-shift in this manner: your character is originally from the past, 100 years ago. Does he know that Tyr is "dead"? Does he believe that? What if this priest decides to revive faith in Tyr as a kind of "Tyr isn't dead" heresy and he becomes chaotic good, focusing on Tyr's old aspects of rebellion and justice? BUT perhaps Tyr actually IS dead and the priest is unknowingly being channeled power by Talos... an attempt to lure him away from not only Torm but also goodness in general? Destruction does seem somewhat imminent if you plan to create inter-national strife and dress up Sembian prisoners to beat on innocent civilians in order to make the Purple Dragons look bad (when they're not, really; and this borders on being evil, you know). Of course, this would mean your priest would become "False" to Torm in the cosmic afterlife sense, and "Faithless" because Tyr is truly dead, but it could be massively fun to roleplay.
Just my two cents. Keep having FUN, remember that!
|
| sfdragon |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 20:07:35
Death to Cormyr
Longive Icewind dale |
| drabin pheonix |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 19:28:16
this is why I wasn't going to get involved in this post because blade you only listen to what you want to hear and attack anyone who doesn't agree with you, but seen that the other pcs were brought into it on several occasions I wasn't staying quite anymore.
blade you get confused with loyal and blind, you would think a cleric of torm would know the difference. Soknow a loyal soldier are just blind minions! And you still want to preach to the masses? And about attacking the paladin he was fulfilling HIS duty by following a lawful order something you should know about seen that you were the one who preached on about it to the men. And you juctifiy knocking him out because what? You didn't kill so now its ok to assault the law?
and about the prisoners, we didn't know that they wouldn't make it but we did know" OUR "comrades "WERE" been attacked and dying so our commander made a calculated decision to proceed and as his officers we showed loyal to him by trusting his decision, also you forget to mention the reason we left with the mission a failure was because your character got charmed and tried to kill the rest of us! If your god hadn't of taken your powers at that time your would have succeeded. At that stage we were out of healing and badly wounded !And to top it all off the pc incharge told you to put on the manicles because he couldn't trust you without checking to see that you weren't charmed anymore and you refused ( notices a pattern here ;-)) another lawfully order.
p.s there is nothing wrong with been loyal to your country "long live cormyr" ;-) |
| blade020877 |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 18:45:23
quote:
know blade mentions the slave in the cave, this is how I viewed that encounter; a very small group of us were there to kill a giant lord who's army was in a battle at the time with our commanders army, the battlemasters army was out numbered ( this wasn't expected at the time) because of this we were on a time table and we lost a lot of time trying find are way through the caverns and tunnels, at one time (several hours in game time because we were lost ;-)) we came across slave mining under guard, we killed the gruads and told the slaves the directions to get get out, we decided we couldn't afford the time to lead them out because more of our brothers in the battle would be killed if we had futher delays with our mission. The cleric didn't agree but was out ranked, to me the mission came first especially with my comrades in danger.
I know a spy was going to turn up sometime lol
They didn’t get out and all were kill, so the slaves were from cormyr and dales, but because they weren’t purple dragons they are less of a concern??!! Purple dragon protects crown country and its people. So ones a slave always a slave????? It was the wrong call from a lg pc.
and if you ask he dm because you left them a high ranking purple dragon officer die too or as you call it a brothers in arm??!!
Plus we didn’t leave cos of our brothers in arms, we find the giant king but found him with all his powerful allies and we were way out gunned and then we ran that more like what happen.
quote:
All that aside when it came to the council meeting I viewed it as politication s doing their part i.e talking shite and my character wasn't concerned about the word fencing taking place , but when the cleric reacted the way he did we were all in shock. We just could not comprehend that he would abandon his oath and his friends because of the words used by the prince. In my characters eyes he betrayed us and the king (forgot to mention I also follow torm). After what he done when he resisted arrest and attacked our paladin and other purple dragons my character would attack him without hesitation now that an order from the king has told us too, especially now that he was framed in murder as well.
So funny when you try to Justife it.
My oath is to torm and all good people at that point.
As I said already blind minions to cormyr
lil background on drabin pheonix he is like a one direction fan of cormyr lol not just one pc has a couple of them with big cormyr egos
So I attacked the paladin??!!! You forgot the bit about I went to him to say goodbye and he tried to arrest me (arrest me by attacking me) so I knocked him out. I didn’t attack him I defended myself.
|
| blade020877 |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 17:59:00
quote:
Nothing against you blade020877 but i felt there was too much patting on backs in this thread and i wanted to show that there is indeed a problem with your church's dogma in your actions, the last word is for you and your DM, you need to come up with something that's good for the campaign and good for both of you.
demzer i know you have nothing against me just your Opinion, i was trying to be sarastic lol, I replied to the post quite late so was sleepy and in a sarcastic mood which really is all the time, portose can back that one up lol I think it’s good to have both side of the argument in any forum post but see which majority vote which can help a game is.
Ok update on way my pc is thinking of doing. If you think good or bad are ok but remember I haven’t done anything yet
First
Staying with torm but changing alignment to ng
So not lawful anymore
I have got some help from lawful good people
And in the middle of getting another group base in the dales to play.
(Can’t say who as there are spies in here lol)
They will help with frost giant army but not cormyr till I get proof of corruption
So that will be on going task.
Can’t remember but someone asked why would sembia help?? In our game there is no sembia in the dales only cormyr at the moment, so to see cormyr border expand in to dales and maybe push more on to sembia borders would be a problem for them.
The best example of this is the U.S. helping the Mujahedeen; they just wanted to stop the Russians getting a foot hold in Middle East.
But that’s want I think.
|
| drabin pheonix |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 17:50:32
hi all,
I am one of the other pc's in this game. I have read all the posts and am going to give you my view on the events since a few people have wondered why the other pcs are quite. Firstly another gamer has put this post up to get outsiders opinions ( he already knows my opinion ) and secondly this is a discussion with my DM and a fellow pc, I find if everyone at the table stays involved after they have already shared their view it only gets bogged down and the game stops moving forward .
But now that people are asking for another pc to add to me mix I will gladly oblige ;-).
My character is a 10th lvl fighter 10th lvl kensai LN who's oath is to the current king. I am Cormyr all the way so with cormyr expanding in 4th edition my character fully supports it. Me the cleric and another pc paladin were all in the Havoc company a elite group of purple dragons, which were wiped out except for us three. So our characters were very loyal to one another, and this was how we were playing for the most part.
know blade mentions the slave in the cave, this is how I viewed that encounter; a very small group of us were there to kill a giant lord who's army was in a battle at the time with our commanders army, the battlemasters army was out numbered ( this wasn't expected at the time) because of this we were on a time table and we lost a lot of time trying find are way through the caverns and tunnels, at one time (several hours in game time because we were lost ;-)) we came across slave mining under guard, we killed the gruads and told the slaves the directions to get get out, we decided we couldn't afford the time to lead them out because more of our brothers in the battle would be killed if we had futher delays with our mission. The cleric didn't agree but was out ranked, to me the mission came first especially with my comrades in danger.
Now the decussions about the prince, we all now the type of person he is but he is still royalty and it is our duty to obey( unless its outright evil, I maybe LN but I do have honour) even when we all have our doubts about him. From what I have read many of the posts mention that we other pcs are yes men ( can't copy and post on this dam phone) or something along those line. The fact is we all had run ins with him, one of mine was when he had his lackies start to order around the purple dragons when we were traveling to the Dales. I confronted the prince informing that it broke protacal and hinders our job in protecting him, this lead to one of his regular sparing exabitions with other pc officers which he found amusing ( Muppet).
All that aside when it came to the council meeting I viewed it as politication s doing their part i.e talking shite and my character wasn't concerned about the word fencing taking place , but when the cleric reacted the way he did we were all in shock. We just could not comprehend that he would abandon his oath and his friends because of the words used by the prince. In my characters eyes he betrayed us and the king( forgot to mention I also follow torm ). After what he done when he resisted arrest and attacked our paladin and other purple dragons my character would attack him without hesitation now that a order from the king has tolds us too, especially now that he was framed in murder aswell.
sorry about the grammer am using one finger o. A phone and this has takin me a long long time to type.
p.s really insightful opinions on this subject cheers.
especially evil Dm :-)
|
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 12:47:20
Portose, think about getting some assassins on the fugitive. He knows of the Dales talk with Cormyr, he is a diplomatic risk, a risk that needs to be silenced. 
I do get the impression blade from what you wrote, that you play your cleric a bit like a paladin. If that is your style, sure, but i have to say, it is extremely blue eyed to think you just get "good" guys out of a prison. Sembia, should they be willing to help, will play by their own rules and you will be nothing but a pawn for them. You may tell them that Cormyr wants to extend influence in the Dales, ok. What then? What do you offer Sembia aside from that? A single information will not have them go in "we must aid him" mode. If they allow you to get prisoners, they will ask for compensation, do you have the means to answer the demand in a way that pleases them? Ask yourself those questions and come to your own conclusion.
Furthermore putting people under a geas is not a good act, it is neutral at best because you impose something on a sentient being which it would perhaps normally not do. You will have to get your hands dirty, there is no way around it.
Demzer, while i consider The Book of Vile Darkness the best of the three movies, i have to say how it ended was cliche. Good triumphing over evil against all odds, fine if people fancy it (i find it tiring), but if we apply it on this situation it means that the cleric will have to go through hardship that may border questioning his believe and the temptations, the lure of "evil" everpresent should weigh on his mind. This situation is "world politics" and not questing for fair maidens against vile beasts that are slain and a merry time to be had by all. The DM should adapt to what the players do and keep the world in mind. If they mess things up, they have to suffer the consequences and not the DM saving their hides for their own stupidity.
Yes i can be a mean one
|
| Demzer |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 10:53:21
One more thing (since i'm really coming off as a bad and evil person):
In the last D&D Movie (yeah i know ...) the hero is a paladin that breaks all his oaths, teams up with a bunch of really Evil guys killing, maiming, destroying and looting on a quest to retrieve the Book of Vile Darkness (i think, going from memory) for some kind of Evil mastermind ultra boss, all this to save his father. In the end, since he's doing it for the greater good (preventing the Evil ritual that involved his father sacrifice i think) his god let's him wield the Uber Powerful Holy Sword of Kick Ass and they win.
What does this have to do with the case at hand? Even in this big mess maybe your lawful good cleric of Torm "spider senses" tingled and you are really working against the greater evil and in the end you'll do the right thing and save the day (and Cormyr and the Dales). For now we don't know, you took the risk and as a DM this is something i can respect in a player and this is something worth even some (or many) course corrections in the campaign, to let it play out well for everyone. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 10:36:52
quote:
Originally posted by blade020877
And just the last thing... a note to evil dms, we get together to have fun a laugh and stress our self out but at the end of the day it’s about to look forward to the next game
Nothing against you blade020877 but i felt there was too much patting on backs in this thread and i wanted to show that there is indeed a problem with your church's dogma in your actions, the last word is for you and your DM, you need to come up with something that's good for the campaign and good for both of you.
Eh ... alright folks, everything is fine, i caged him again, the evil DM just screamed something against the other players that i can translate to:
Uh ... guys? You reading? Anyone of you wants to chime in and say something? Because right now in all this big messy affair (undoubtely fun from a RP point of view) you other party members come off as d-b*gs, i mean your comrade saved your skin how many times? How many times did he prove himself as a good guy doing the right thing during your service together in the Purple Dragons? And you repay him with arrest on sight? Not even an explanation? Not even "alright you're with us now, we take your custody and let's go together higher up through the ranks because something is fishy"? I mean you got ambushed twice already, the diplomatic escort can't cage the whole group and make the trip back safely so that was a good bet, yeah, maybe forcing it a bit against the lawful side but, as this whole debate shows, PCs are more than their stated alignment.
Anyway, i'll stop accusing random people of random things and leave for now by saying that in a situation like this one, as a DM, i'll send in the War Wizards and Highknights to clean up the mess: they probably know the prince is evil, they probably know the party members are war heroes or something, they answer only to the king and they can do whatever pleases them like a good secret police. |
| portose_sharpe |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 10:33:16
hello all thanks for the posts some great reads.
just on a side note, no one knows if indeed the prince is evil, as far as the pcs know/seen the prince has being a dick but nothing evil. and if was never found out if indeed this was all a buff check by the prince to see what he could and, and maybe cormyr was going to help either way.
and to answer another question, in our game the Dales Council Holds real power within the dales, 7 dales seat on the council which can change with some voted out and new ones voted in, only one from any given dale doh. which with cormyr's deal the 7th seat would go to cormyr and the dales down to 6 seats.
ps i like u evil DM :) lol |
| blade020877 |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 05:54:14
Ok I read it all now... thanks for all the replies good and bad lol, as this topic has gone quite in depth best explain pc and history to this point.
To give you and picture of my character I sooner help the poor on the street then the high nobles or royalty.
It games where we had to recues people, as others were fighting bad guys I was rush to prisoners to get them out as quick as possible.
when some of us were been promoted, we were asked questions first, if we were on a mission and orders were not to come in contact with anybody on till we get to post, but on the way we seen people been attacked by bandits. But I keep going out of sight or stop and help?? I knew my answer but knew I wasn’t going to get promoted over it. “I help”
A time we many purple dragons were been control for an evil powerful demon.
Was order to stop them at all cost but I subdual every one of them I came across.
So to give you an ill idea what my pc is about....
So from the start..... The group first encounts with the prince wasn’t on the best of terms. Nothing evil just him been a prick. As I am an inquisitor too as cleric I did an ill bit of info gathering and heard rumour of shady dealing he has had.
My first thoughts of problem with the beliefs of purple dragons when was fighting frosts giants in there caves and came across slaves from cormyr and dales but order to leave them. This did not sit well with me.
We were put in change to escort him and his group to the dales. We were ambushed couple of times but got the prince there. But as we looked in the attack it looked like there could have been a setup up against a powerful noble with us but was friends with the prince. Didn’t find anything so had to go on our way.
Got to meeting and stood on guard there as prince talked to dales council.
The sentence that made me leave was “surrender a seat to cormyr then we will help”
To all that said I was wrong read carefully
First
My duty is to good ruler that will help stop evil and not for a price..... At that point my duty turn to torm himself “Strike quickly and forcefully against rot in the hearts of mortals” Your fourfold duties are to faith, family, masters, and all good beings of Faerûn.
My Loyalty is to torm and good beings of faerun““stand ever alert against corruption. I have to do right by them.
So anyway
When the meeting was over and escorted the prince to his room. After that I went to my commander’s room and told him I am leaving the purple dragons. He told me I was under arrest. But I left anyway. After a while the commander info the the group I was to be arrested on sight. I went back to say good bye to my friends but they tried to arrest me. So I when on the run with plans of getting help to start up my own war with the frost giant army and get cormyr out of the dales. If I can show the dales that they don’t need to give up a seat to get help.
The other part was propaganda; I don’t think I was pointing out the group I was in but at purple dragons.
Make them look like the bad guy. Tell dales folk that purple dragons left dales slaves behind in cave to die by frost giants hands (which is true) and stuff like that.
Using sembia, telling them cormyr in the dales and getting stronger and a big foot hold. So I can’t see why you wouldn’t want me to stop that (FYI long term play is to use this against sembia later as there under shade rule have a big long complex plan if cormyr don’t get the message lol)
I was going to ask sembia for prisoner that want to joint up (like in the U.S. jail or join the army) but I pick no evil, neutral or good. Then when they join have a ques or spell to stop them breaking my order (no robbing no raping no murdering etc) and if they want out back to sembia jail...... no prison break out you mad lot of hippie’s lol
Next for my propaganda I was going to dress men up as purple dragon and others commoners, farmers etc
The fake commoners would go in to big town ands and be bullied and stuff taken on them by faked purple dragons. I use their own tactics back at them, they frame me for murder I frame them for bastards lol
I went with a gut feeling and so far it’s been right. Poison a child, murder purple dragons, kidnap my family and framed me for it all.......... the cheek of some of you saying I did the wrong thing#61514;. The bigger man stand up for the lil man that can’t stand up for himself
I agree with a lot of you, I have to get something that ties the prince in with this.
I can’t really go in to much more as other pc’s of the group read this,
But my first mission is get help, manpower and funds so I can stop the giant army in the dales and show cormyr wasnt needed
And just the last thing... a note to evil dms, we get together to have fun a laugh and stress our self out but at the end of the day it’s about to look forward to the next game |
| blade020877 |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 03:39:16
i only read a lil bit of posts... so bare with me. first dm tell all my plans. not a prisoner break, i was going to sembia to ask for prisoner to help stop cormyr taking an other country to there empire. my rules to this i take no evil people and attone for crimes with services to me. to stop them doing crimes if they left with me was quest or something like it. my other plan was propaganda against purple dragons so the dales people dont want them there.
remember torms dogma is plain and simple "Stand ever alert against corruption. Strike quickly and forcefully against rot in the hearts of mortals."
i seen the rot and acted
why i left the group is cos, if there was a rotting element to the crown they still would have followed blindly. (i was the only good purple dragon in the group) |
| Therise |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 01:41:04
Seems like there's quite a bit to the story, on both sides, that make this a tough judgement call. Apparently there is a "giant army" threatening the Dales, and that's obviously not good. At the same time, while the Prince may be evil, I'm not convinced that what he's asking for (a council seat in return for military aid) is actually evil with a capital E. It's certainly manipulative, nasty politics, and "quid pro quo" of course, but foreign governments -always- want something in return for military aid. Now, if the Prince is behind the "giant army" also, and using it to apply pressure in this political situation, then certainly that would be evil. Did the priest have evidence of that?
At the same time, nothing I've heard so far convinces me that anyone on the Dales Council would actually agree to this. The Dales have worried about infiltration on all sides, Cormyr included ever since they absorbed Tilverton. Leaving aside the fact that the Dales Council actually involves no real power, other than helping hammer out inter-Dale contracts for trade and issues of mutual defense, the Prince just really isn't bringing enough to the table for them to consider his admission to the Council.
Unless in the past 100 years the Dales Council has significantly changed and has become a true governing body, the Prince actually isn't getting anything of power-value for the lives he would commit to defending the Dales. It just doesn't make sense... so I'm guessing there's more to the story. My instinct would say that the Dalesmen would laugh at the idea, and totally reject him. Not only would mustering Cormyrean troops take too long to get there in time, the Dalesmen would not want any outsider to even have the appearance of power.
About the Tormite priest, I don't know all of his plans or everything that's happened. But freeing a bunch of legally incarcerated prisoners and leading them (probably when many of those prisoners are thieves, degenerates, or even murderers) certainly isn't a "good act" - unless he knows for a fact that these prisoners have been falsely accused and wrongfully imprisoned. Going "rogue" as an officer would be "okay" with Torm -if- the priest was ordered to do evil things. Disagreeing with orders for purely political reasons isn't enough. On the other hand, if he -was- asked to do something legitimately evil, then he absolutely should have abandoned his post and sat for a day or two in prayer to Torm to explain his decisions.
This is complicated by what the DM has said: in their game, specifically the priest took an oath to the Crown and -must- treat it as higher than the oaths to his God. This wouldn't work in my game, but this is what the priest agreed to, apparently. Why -any- priest would agree to that seems unfathomable, but I guess it's a house rule. If the priest had grown up in this new time period, then that's apparently their code. Importantly, however, this priest has noted that their adventuring group actually comes from an earlier era (3.5E) when times were different - and Torm's dogma was also quite a bit different than how you've described it here in your 4E game. So this priest may be operating on "Torm's old moral rules" about duty and obedience from the Torm he knows. And the earlier Torm would say that goodness trumps duty and obedience when lives are in question. Torm's new rules, and the oaths of Cormyr, may indeed be different on some fundamental dogmatic level that hasn't been mentioned.
So I'd say that because of the players having been in stasis for ~100 years, and because this isn't exactly the Cormyr that they knew, and maybe the DM has changed Torm's dogma somewhat, the whole thing is a big tangled mess. But that is part of the fun of roleplaying, isn't it?
One thing I would like to mention is that it's weird and difficult when one player in a group decides to go rogue on the others. It undermines the nature of group play. So while his going rogue may make sense in terms of the player's personal moral outlook, it tends to be a little divisive in game-play. The Cormyrean Prince is definitely being manupulative, underhanded, and political, but I'm not convinced that his actions or goals are evil. If he's secretly funding and controlling the "giant army" invading the Dales, then sure, that's evil. What evidence did the priest have of evil actions by the Prince, other than that "he didn't like the idea" of pressuring the Dalesmen?
|
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 23:39:54
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Things that concerned me is the PCs vs. PC problem that has been setup.
I am also concerned about an NPC that looks like the PC, kidnapped the PC's family, incidentally killing a few people in the false rescue.
Duty first to deity, clearly duty to crown does come second. Asking for a seat on Dales council clearly does not strike me as Evil. That is a treaty negotiation. If you want aid I want a voice as to policy. That is not an Evil request.
I'm totally with you until the last part. Or rather, I'm with you except that I think it's not just asking for a seat on the Dales Council. The hostile army in the Dales raises the stakes and makes it wholly evil.
"I might consider helping you... at a cost. The cost for my consideration is your independence. Unless you give me what I want, I will stand back and let invaders slaughter your children. I will fortify my own borders and watch you die, unless you give me a voice in controlling your future. If you give me a seat on the Dales Council, fully equal to any single Dale, then I'll consider helping you. No promises." And, as already pointed out, the force the prince brought with him is just a bodyguard... an actual army will take time to muster and get into position. Time which the Dales really doesn't have. Cormyr, in this situation, clearly has no intention of providing meaningful assistance. The price must be paid immediately, and regardless of whether Cormyr comes to the rescue or not. The assistance, if it ever comes, will be later.
It also puts the Dales in a tough position, which is part of the point of doing it. If the invading army is ultimately too much for the Dales to handle on their own, then the man who turns Cormyr's assistance away will be the final nail in the coffin of the Dalesfolk. And of course word will spread... within a day or two of this negotiation every man, woman, and child in the Dales will know about Cormyr's offer and whether it was accepted or rebuffed.
Once Cormyr has a seat on the Council, they will have a foothold from which the Dales will never recover. Cormyr is not necessarily saying "the Purple Dragons will assist you against every foe henceforth, in exchange for a seat on the Council." The seat is permanent, the aid is not.
The next time there's a threat to the Dales, Cormyr can very easily say "give us another seat, and we'll think about it."
If someone is bullying you, and I have knowledge of it and the ability to stop it, and I look you in the eye and say "I'll think about helping you, just this once, in exchange for complete control over your and your descendants' actions every Tuesday, forever." I would think you would balk, and you should regard me as closer to the black end of the good vs evil spectrum.
This might be standard operating procedure for Cormyr in the 4e era, and undoubtedly other monarchies too, but the frequency and the ease with which it's done doesn't stop it from being callous, manipulative, imperialistic, and evil.
And I've been yappin my head off in this thread. I will make another attempt to shut my trap. |
|
|
