| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Plaguescarred |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 05:40:36
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=625I-lKprDk
By D&D Team
D&D Sundering authors -- R.A. Salvatore, Ed Greenwood, and Erin M. Evans -- held a panel event at Columbus Ohio's Thurber House. Join them, as they discuss drawing on each other's experiences and developing an overarching storyline to transition into online videos and roleplaying adventures. Moderated by James Wyatt, Creative Manager of Dungeons & Dragons. |
| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 14:35:52
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But no other deity needs to have favored mortals carrying the same role as Mystra. Her Chosen are a limitation, a check against her power. No other deity needs that, because no one else is as strong as the deity of magic in a highly magical setting.
If that was the only thing the Chosens of Mystra were about, we could agree.
But they don't just sit in remote corners of the world waiting for Mystra to go nuts and being the limitation that keeps everything together.
They are active agents of her will, they are the main instruments carrying on her agenda, they are the highest form of divine meddling before the deity itself shows up to mess with things and finally they are used, time and again, to kick butts and take names on Mystra's behalf.
Seeing this it's obvious that almost any other deity would want agents of the same caliber running around doing sacred errands. The difference here is in the relative power of this agents.
Mystra's Chosens are invested with a portion of divinity to carry on their "other" duty (check and balance) if need be, the others are "just" glorified mortals with additional god-given powers. Yet we (and Faerunians) have just one word to describe both groups, probably because very few entities (mortal or divine) know about the "other" duty of Mystra's Chosens.
It's sure that a Chosen of Talona would not have the sheer power of a Chosen of Mystra, yet it's foolish to think that Talona wouldn't want a powerful divine agent to do her bidding. That's why the Rotting Man wasn't wiping the floor with the Circle of Leth (despite being a 20-something level Chosen of Talona) the same way Elminster or Khelben or the Simbul wipe the floor with most of the things that get thrown at them.
The core of the issue is that we use the word "Chosen" to refer to two groups of people (Mystra's being one and all the others in the second group) that have wildly different powers and we have the metagaming knowledge that Mystra's Chosens are more than mere empowered divine agents.
But we have to remember that the specific role of Mystra's Chosen is a closely guarded secret currently know probably only by them, the revived goddess and Ao. So any Realms character, be it archwizard or paesant, seeing a powerful character doing some deity's errands thinks of him/her as a "Chosen" of that deity, without knowing the difference between the various types of Chosens and its perfectly apt and correct from an "in world" point of view that things stay this way.
Until Mystra's Chosens special role is publicized and the news gets spread, they're just "Chosens" like those of Talona, Mielikki, Eldath, Cyric, etc ...
I've already said I don't have a problem with divine servants that are more than mortal... The statement you quoted was me saying other deities don't need Chosen who fulfill the same role as Mystra's Chosen. As I said, Mystra's Chosen aren't just servants, they are limitations, checks against her power. Other deities don't need that. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 10:30:19
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But no other deity needs to have favored mortals carrying the same role as Mystra. Her Chosen are a limitation, a check against her power. No other deity needs that, because no one else is as strong as the deity of magic in a highly magical setting.
If that was the only thing the Chosens of Mystra were about, we could agree.
But they don't just sit in remote corners of the world waiting for Mystra to go nuts and being the limitation that keeps everything together.
They are active agents of her will, they are the main instruments carrying on her agenda, they are the highest form of divine meddling before the deity itself shows up to mess with things and finally they are used, time and again, to kick butts and take names on Mystra's behalf.
Seeing this it's obvious that almost any other deity would want agents of the same caliber running around doing sacred errands. The difference here is in the relative power of this agents.
Mystra's Chosens are invested with a portion of divinity to carry on their "other" duty (check and balance) if need be, the others are "just" glorified mortals with additional god-given powers. Yet we (and Faerunians) have just one word to describe both groups, probably because very few entities (mortal or divine) know about the "other" duty of Mystra's Chosens.
It's sure that a Chosen of Talona would not have the sheer power of a Chosen of Mystra, yet it's foolish to think that Talona wouldn't want a powerful divine agent to do her bidding. That's why the Rotting Man wasn't wiping the floor with the Circle of Leth (despite being a 20-something level Chosen of Talona) the same way Elminster or Khelben or the Simbul wipe the floor with most of the things that get thrown at them.
The core of the issue is that we use the word "Chosen" to refer to two groups of people (Mystra's being one and all the others in the second group) that have wildly different powers and we have the metagaming knowledge that Mystra's Chosens are more than mere empowered divine agents.
But we have to remember that the specific role of Mystra's Chosen is a closely guarded secret currently know probably only by them, the revived goddess and Ao. So any Realms character, be it archwizard or paesant, seeing a powerful character doing some deity's errands thinks of him/her as a "Chosen" of that deity, without knowing the difference between the various types of Chosens and its perfectly apt and correct from an "in world" point of view that things stay this way.
Until Mystra's Chosens special role is publicized and the news gets spread, they're just "Chosens" like those of Talona, Mielikki, Eldath, Cyric, etc ... |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 06:25:03
When I think of Cattie Brie next to the likes of Storm Silverhand, my first thought is the former is nowhere near as powerful as the later, yet both are Chosen.
But then I realize the current, much weakened version of Storm isn't that far away from Cattie Brie in terms of power.
And I like it that way.
I like it because both Storm and Cattie Brie are individuals gifted with divine advantages, but these are outshined by their aims, their desires and their own free will. Each is wholly devoted to their respective deities, but without seeming like they are pawns of those deities.
To me it seems like their struggles are what the deities depend on to tip the scales, instead of having deity battle deity directly in the heavens, which (with respect to any author or editor or creative director who has worked on the Realms) can be just about the worst way to do things.
I think debating what is or isn't a Chosen or arguing for or against having more Chosen of other deities in the Realms is to miss the point.
The Realms are changing. The deities, it seems, are receding into the background. But in so doing, they are investing more in their mortal servants, making such all the more important.
Count me curious to see how this business with the various Chosen turns out.
EDIT: Personally, I think the Shadovar collecting Chosen is how they're going to author their own demise. It's like sitting on a living powder keg of divine power. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 05:01:17
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
If the other deities had "servants" that carried the same role as Mystra's Chosen, even if you didn't call them Chosen, they would still essentially be Chosen, so changing their title to something else wouldn't change what they are.
But no other deity needs to have favored mortals carrying the same role as Mystra. Her Chosen are a limitation, a check against her power. No other deity needs that, because no one else is as strong as the deity of magic in a highly magical setting. |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 04:46:48
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I actually like Elminsters adventures and he usually goes up against beings just as powerful as himself. But i guess its all relative.
If the chosen of other gods are not really doing anything of note then why even bother mentioning them?
For their personal struggles; reconciling their wants, needs, and desires with those of their gods. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 03:53:51
I am not silly enough to think that other gods wouldn't have favoured mortals. I much prefer the term favoured for them though. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 20:22:34
I'll have to check out the excerpt later (and btw, Erin, I'm really looking forward to your book!), but I'll comment on the Chosen. I can see your point, Wooly (though them being background characters did not happen. They're in the forefront), and I agree that if every god had a Chosen, it would get cluttered, but I do think it shouldn't be restricted to just Mystra.
The word "Chosen" can imply different things. If the other deities had "servants" that carried the same role as Mystra's Chosen, even if you didn't call them Chosen, they would still essentially be Chosen, so changing their title to something else wouldn't change what they are. Personally, I think a "chosen" is someone who is not only favored by a deity, but carries out tasks for them as well. I realize this is not the FR definition of them, but it makes sense to me. In a way, even Catti-brie in the Companions could be considered a chosen of Mielikki. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 19:37:23
Because it adds to the variety. Knowing that every god or goddess has a chosen or more out in the realms opens up plot hooks. If you know you got a task from a Chosen, be sure that you are under observation and if you do something that goes against the intended goal of the chosen, you can be sure you maybe have made a powerful enemy that spices up your campaign.
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| Arcanus |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 18:47:49
I actually like Elminsters adventures and he usually goes up against beings just as powerful as himself. But i guess its all relative.
If the chosen of other gods are not really doing anything of note then why even bother mentioning them? |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 18:08:46
Arcanus, it only clutters it up if people indeed use them as "superheroes", which i reject, powerful, yes but not "saving the day at every turn". Some Chosen donīt get involved in matters of the world, or atleast we know nothing of it or has anyone heard of the Chosen of Eldath butting some heads (even though that would be against the dogma and wishes of the deity)?
It boils down to how they are used and having a chosen stomping into a "lair" of evil or good and wrecking it to ruin is something that is over the top and should not be done, commanding "minions" to do it, sure, but not Elminster godzilla style like in Lord of the Darkways. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 17:52:35
I don't have a problem with deities having their own special servants, but I don't think all deities need them, that they need the power of Mystra's Chosen, or even to carry a bit of divinity. And I don't think they should all be called Chosen, either.
What I would think would be reasonable would be one or two servants with extra abilities that most mortal servants wouldn't have, and a special place in the church hierarchy. Perhaps an Illuminated of Lathander, for example, who had turning and anti-undead abilities beyond those of regular clerics, or a Warlord of the Red Knight who buffed military groups and had a supernatural grasp of tactics, or a Reader of Oghma who automatically understood and could write in any language.
Those would all be divine servants with more abilities than regular clerics, but not necessarily semi-divine powerhouses like Mystra's Chosen. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 17:49:32
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Are you serious? Mystra gets enough "special treatment" with her Chosen. Why should the goddess of Magic be the only one to have them? The Chosen are the "will" of the gods in mortal/demi-mortal form on Toril and only giving them to Mystra makes no sense.
What wooly said.
I will add that if every god and his son has chosen it clutters up the setting with too many powerful beings. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 16:50:44
Sorry, i disagree with Mystra being the only one and i support Chosen for every deity, if itīs straying from Edīs vision so be it,i favor it. How they are displayed though is another matter, absolutely NOT as superheroes. Yes Chosen need to be the figures in the background and send other "on their way" and not be "in your face". |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 16:30:43
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Are you serious? Mystra gets enough "special treatment" with her Chosen. Why should the goddess of Magic be the only one to have them? The Chosen are the "will" of the gods in mortal/demi-mortal form on Toril and only giving them to Mystra makes no sense.
Actually, it does -- because the purpose of the Chosen wasn't just to be divine servants.
The Chosen are a limit on Mystra's power, because the high-magic nature of the setting makes her the most powerful deity of the setting. Her Chosen contain some of her power -- which she cannot herself take back -- and thus limit her.
So her Chosen are a combination of divine servant, backup, restrictor plate, and even loyal opposition.
Plus their service isn't just advancing her goals -- they also act to help maintain the Weave and keep things stable. Yes, the Weave is Mystra's thing, but it's maintained for all beings to us, not just for the advancement of her favorites.
It was intended by Ed that only Mystra would have Chosen, because she was the only power that needed to be limited. But various people at TSR/WotC saw the Chosen as being more like superheroes, and like comic book writers and Hollywood, decided that if one of something is good, three dozen is so much better.
Chosen were never intended for other deities, and they were never intended to be more than mysterious background characters -- someone who would give the PCs advice and maybe aim them in a particular direction, then go off to do their own thing, which was often either behind-the-scenes stuff to prevent major problems from occurring, or dealing with the high-level movers and shakers who swat dragons like flies. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 15:08:51
Are you serious? Mystra gets enough "special treatment" with her Chosen. Why should the goddess of Magic be the only one to have them? The Chosen are the "will" of the gods in mortal/demi-mortal form on Toril and only giving them to Mystra makes no sense. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 15:03:12
I have never liked the idea of gods other than Mystra having chosen anyway. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 14:49:33
I love how Erin did kind of voices for the kids. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 14:28:14
I'd also I like to point out that if the Gods of 500 different Chosen come to the rescue at once the Chosen would end up smears on the sidewalk along with a Quarter of Faerun.
Also these aren't the Gods' only Chosen, some are being tested for thier worthiness and the Gods have spares.
Heck at 500 people you have enough Chosen for every God, Dead God, DemiGod, Primordial, and Used to be a God turned Archfey or Primal Spirit in the realms with dupicates to spare.
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| Arcanus |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 19:53:12
Erin, please don't take my comments as a personal attack on your work. As has been pointed out- this is only an excerpt. However, we already know shade are collecting Chosen or those that they think are Chosen. The only reason I can see for gods taking no action to help them is if they think they will be safe there to be reclaimed after the events of the Sundering. |
| ErinMEvans |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 18:55:58
I was going to come and post this link, but I see Plaguescarred is on top of it! I hope the rest of you enjoy the excerpt, and the discussion. It's unfortunate the video didn't include the entire event--it seems like there were problems picking up the mics in those early sections.
For Arcanus and anyone who feels similarly, I would reiterate Brian's kind comments. This is half a scene, which is about a third of a chapter, which is one-twenty-seventh of a book, which is itself only a sixth of the Sundering. Not all Chosen are Elminster, not all gods are Mystra, and we have yet to see what the Sundering holds.
But moreover, I'd point out that in this scene, Dahl agrees with you. Some kids have told him the camp is full of Chosen, and based on what Dahl knows about Chosen that's--yeah--"utter tosh." Something very weird is happening here, and he cannot figure it out--all he has is some kid's word that this is a "farm for Chosen" and the visual proof that these people can't leave, even if they want to. Those two thinks don't jibe, so what's going on?
Dahl himself has a rather conflicted relationship with the gods, so this is not him going "Well, all right then. I guess it's settled." The end is him thinking of this as the sort of puzzle he would have been given when he was dedicated to Oghma, because he cannot figure out the actual, practical answer at this moment. The only answer he has right now is the sort of aphorism his sect would have encouraged in this case: You cannot know what the gods are thinking for sure. But assume they're thinking something.
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| Arcanus |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 18:27:38
While i agree that i do not know the whole story and yes, it is only an excerpt from one book, it did imply that they were chosen of the gods.
Not apparent that the gods are gods? That statement verges on the ridiculous. What else are these beings of immense power we have (from the start) have been told are gods?
If i am proved to be wrong then i shall furnish Erin with a sincere apology.
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| Garen Thal |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 17:54:14
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Im not saying the book is tosh, just the idea that the chosen go missing and the gods do nothing.
Tosh, see.
And what I'm suggesting is that maybe some context would help inform your opinion.
Nothing has been revealed about what the gods can or can't do about or with or to their (or other deities') Chosen during the Sundering. It's not clear whether a given god can have one Chosen, or several, or a hundred or more. It's not apparent whether the gods are actually gods, in the traditional sense, while all of this is going on. Hell, who is to say that all of these "Chosen" are actually Chosen at all?
My point is not that your opinion is invalid, just that you're forming it based on the words of an unreliable narrator in a small portion of a book that has--on purpose--given you no context, and no objective information. You might decide later on that the idea is terrible (and you are, of course, entitled to feel however you like about whatever book you like), but Erin knows both her craft and the world well enough that I'd urge just a little bit of trust here. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 17:17:47
Im not saying the book is tosh, just the idea that the chosen go missing and the gods do nothing.
Tosh, see. |
| Garen Thal |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 16:02:45
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
So there is a village of at least 500 kidnaped chosen? What the hell are their gods supposed to be doing about it? They're only the gods most favoured mortals, why should they be doing anything eh? I hated Erin's get out clause of "we can't guess the gods motives etc". Anybody remember when El was trapped in Hell? Mystra was straight on the case. Now it seems that the gods are happy for their chosen to be taken from them! Utter tosh!
Whoa whoa whoa... maybe you should pump the brakes just a little bit.
You're talking about an excerpt and a discussion of an excerpt from what is the third book in world-spanning event. It's possible you should seek the tiniest shred of context before determining that something is "utter tosh." |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 15:03:30
So there is a village of at least 500 kidnaped chosen? What the hell are their gods supposed to be doing about it? They're only the gods most favoured mortals, why should they be doing anything eh? I hated Erin's get out clause of "we can't guess the gods motives etc". Anybody remember when El was trapped in Hell? Mystra was straight on the case. Now it seems that the gods are happy for their chosen to be taken from them! Utter tosh! |
| Plaguescarred |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 10:21:13
I liked Erin's reading of her novel! |
| Plaguescarred |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 10:16:23
Oops sorry it broke during edit, its now repaired |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 06:31:18
Here's a linkity link link |
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