| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 14:45:29
Okay, so I am over at the Paizo boards - where I find myself hanging-out more and more - and saw an interesting thread entitled "Any Rules we can adopt from D&D next?". Apparently, some folks have become enamored of certain aspects of the new rules, and it seems they are definitely worth taking a second look at. Some of the concepts discussed I found very interesting, so I went to go see what all the hub-bub was about.
Here's the thing - I haven't downloaded a single playetest packet since about v.2 or so. It was very sparse and didn't interest me (because it was so early in development). I had decided that I would just wait until the new rules were published, have a look at them, and make my decision then. NOTHING said on this site has changed my mind... despite it being a 'fansite' of a D&D setting, and despite the fact that many of our scribes are freelancers (and I suspect secret in-house) people, authors and designers! But thats not the worst part...
So I go over to the WotC site - my enthusiasm renewed BY PAIZO - and I can't sign-in. I've created four accounts over there over the years - a main and an alt, and then two more because they've screwed-up my info each time the site gets an overhaul (so once when it went all ugly and green, and another when they dropped that format a few months later). And yet, I couldn't access any of them, despite my knowing the account names and the E-mails they were associated with. To add insult to injury, I tried changing passwords on them - I was still able to do that be giving the E-mail addresses, etc - and it appeared I successfully changed the passwords... to no avail. Every time I tried to download the playtest packets, I got an error message; something saying "because its a new system", I'd have to read and agree to three things, including their 'terms of Use' policy. Okay, so because they changed everything yet-again, I would have to sign some more stuff.. except they gave me NO WAY TO DO THAT.
After much frustration, I created account #5 (where I WAS able to sign/check those thingies they wanted me to in the error message), and NOW I finally have my playtest materials, which I plan to try this weekend.
So, not only does the 'community' NOT try to pimp the new system AT ALL (including people who work for them!!!), they make you jump through hoops just to take a look at it (I swear, it was positively torturous!)
So someone ought to send a Thank You over to the Paizo community, for pointing-out to the greater RPG community that 5e is worth taking a look at. Lord knows no-one who has a stake in it is doing anything of the kind.  |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Derulbaskul |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 01:05:16
There are major problems with the WotC website, that's for certain.
It's not unusual for me to have to sign in 20 times before it will "accept" my pre-saved login and password. Sometimes it still won't accept it and I need to open another browser to see if it will work there. And, yes, some days it works on Firefox and somedays it works on Chrome. There are also some days where it struggles to work on both.
Of course, there's nothing to be done about it. Lodging a complaint gets no response - too difficult? - and it's not like Paizo where a post on their messageboard will inevitably attract the attention of someone responsible. Too bad I prefer 4E to Pathfinder.... :) |
| Rils |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 20:19:18
The 3e CR system was a pain in the neck; the 4e XP budget simplified that and makes perfect sense. Diffan did a great job of explaining it, so I won't repeat, but I'm glad they are keeping that for DDN. It makes encounter building soooo much easier.
On topic, I've been a member at the WotC boards and DDI subscriber since the advent of 4e. I've never had any trouble with logging in, even after the bi-yearly forum demolitions. Markustay, sorry you had a bad experience with that... but it's not a universal problem. Doesn't help you at all though. :) |
| Diffan |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 21:35:54
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
What is this xp budget approach?
Basically it's a quick tool for DMs on how strong a certain encounter is supposed to be. If you have four 5th level PCs, for example, and you want them to fight a difficult encounter (without a greater chance of a TPK) then you use monsters that fulfill a certain total based on their XP, in this case 500. This could mean 1 monster worth 500 XP or two 250 XP monsters or a range of smaller monsters whos total equals 500. It's a 4E construct that is losely based off the CR of 3rd Edition.
Personally I think it's hand for setting up both sandbox style play where I can just throw pretty much anything at my PCs so long as they stay within the XP field for what I desire (easy, moderate, difficult challenge) AND it helps me populate dungeons better by placing XP fields in certain areas. Going down to the Goblin warrents is probably a easy to moderate challenge where as going into the cliffs where Manticores and Dragons live would be moderate to difficult.
One thing to remember is that this is just a tool. When 4E came out with it a lot of people made this assumption that the DM MUST stick within these bounds or they were "doing it wrong". This led to the belief that PCs HAD to fight monsters that they were capable of destroying (ie. level appropriate). While it's a helpful tool, it doesn't override how the DM views his world. If he says there's a scary powerful dragon on the top of the mountain and the 1st level PCs want to fight him, he's probably not going to be level appropriate (unless, of course, the DM decides otherwise). |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 00:50:29
What is this xp budget approach? |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 00:03:54
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have to admit, their staffers pay a LOT of attention to the boards over there, and are quick to respond (or nip something in the bud).
Some of the staff have going on the forums as part of their daily routine.
In any case, I haven't had any problems with any of the WOTC make overs, using the same log in I've always used. Sorry to hear you've had problems.
As for D&D Next... I don't think it'll have much that can be applied to other systems. Minions were a very cool 4e addition and I like the XP budget approach.. but sadly not everything translates over to other systems. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 14:46:51
Markustay, you just mirrored my feelings several times in the past few months. One day I wanted to go become a subscriber to dungeon and dragon again. I wasted half an hour trying to reset my password. I finally gave up. Another time I wanted to download the latest test packet... same issue despite downloading several different versions. Very recently, upon hearing they were no longer going to be producing new content soon, I tried to resubscribe again... it was a pain, but after 4 tries I was able to reset my password for my ID and get in. I then downloaded the back issues, only to find that once you go a ways back you can't download the issue as an issue, only open the articles. I understand why they want to turn into a non-print magazine... but sheesh, its not that hard to setup and maintain a login server (I say this being in IT <granted a network security engineer>, which I bet a lot of us are).
I recently downloaded the latest playtest packet. I like you had looked at the early versions and been non-plussed. My feedback was always "you need to give more options to the players and not pigeon hole them into a specific role based on class". I haven't looked yet at the latest download. I've already made up my mind though that no matter what I'll buy the 5th edition books and the FR campaign setting. I consider it my duty as a lover of the setting to give them a second chance. They gotta make me happy right out of the box though, or I'll just use the many years worth of books that I already have. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 13:50:47
I think it's just a case of miscommunication.
On that side, some corporate genius sees it as a generous act and expects eat-anything fans to jump on such an awesome thing and thank profusely for the opportunity, but another genius is cautious about enemy spies stealing The Precious.
On this side, there are fond memories of the great quality with which the previous Great Innovative Overhaul shines - all the Bear Lore, Bloody Path and "oooh, Eladrin is such a kewl word!", and what we can see of "5e" in the open are votes such as "do we need five Elemental Planes or four?" and "Monster of the week: Orcs are, like, stupid, but muscled dudes with tusks. Is this description too complex? Yes/No/Wait, aren't those ogres?" - that is, demonstration of the decision makers' complete inability to handle on their own even most trivial concepts. Oh, and running good developers. In this context, things are already going less toward "wow, such an awesome possibility!" and more into "it would take some convincing just to take time and look through this hodgepodge".
As a poet said - and never the twain shall meet. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 13:25:21
I wouldn't blame the moderation as much - the number one rule over on the Paizo forums is "Don't be a jerk". Both nice an simple, and very easy to moderate (because there isn't a specific 'line' you can walk and still be "within the rules" - a jerk is a jerk).* So people learned early-on not to be jerks. Not that folks aren't snarky over there - it just seems to be more a good-natured ribbing then a "I must destroy you!" attitude.
Maybe the folks over there have a war-refugee (edition war) mentality, and they are simply sick of all the fighting. Whereas the rest of us have "stayed in the trenches", and will go down swinging defending our own beliefs (right or wrong as they are). I don't know... they just seem less.. belligerent. Whatever it is, at least they are willing to discuss the merits of D&Dn in a civil manner... some of us can learn a lesson or three from that.
Looking forward to what 5e brings to the table, both setting and rules. 
*I have to admit, their staffers pay a LOT of attention to the boards over there, and are quick to respond (or nip something in the bud). I recall when 4e was released Rich Baker was the ONLY ONE willing to talk to all of us over on the WotC boards, and I still appreciate that. Unfortunately, his candor just added fuel to the fire (his tone was more apologetic then defensive, at a time when 4e really needed defending). I did enjoy Chris Perkins' "blame me" post, and have followed his advice ever since.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 13:17:23
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
In most gamer's eyes, the two are as mutually exclusive as BattleTech and World of Darkness.
Why do they have to be exclusive? I like the idea of a Star of Clan Mechs driven by some Get of Fenris ahrouns... 
And the Technocracy and the Word of Blake are a good match. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 12:59:20
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
It doesn't seem that anyone has brought this up, but D&D and Pazio community are the bloody same thing, one would not exist largely without the other.
The last part of your sentence is true in the sense that Paizo probably drew much of its fanbase from the regular (pre-4E) D&D community, but the two communities are by no means the same thing now.
In my experience the tone of your typical conversation on the Paizo forums is more calm and rational than your typical WotC forum conversation, and less likely to be overtaken by immature ass hats trying to win the conversation instead of simply participating in it.
As much as I love Paizo over the mess that WotC had become (and I hope D&DNext cleans it up), I have to disagree. There are plenty of asshats on both sides. Paizo's forums just have more attentive moderators. 
And, the communities are NOT the same. I run the D&D Philadelphia Meetup group, having taken it over when the last person no longer could afford the monthly charges. One of the first things I set about doing was making sure the group appealed to all RPGs/Games and not just D&D. This included convincing the local gaming store that runs Pathfinder Society adventures multiple times per week to let me promote that in the site. "But we don't play D&D as much as Pathfinder", was their initial attitude. In most gamer's eyes, the two are as mutually exclusive as BattleTech and World of Darkness. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 08:49:28
Heh, I *wish* I had a typewriter.
Cheers |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 08:34:58
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
It doesn't seem that anyone has brought this up, but D&D and Pazio community are the bloody same thing, one would not exist largely without the other.
The last part of your sentence is true in the sense that Paizo probably drew much of its fanbase from the regular (pre-4E) D&D community, but the two communities are by no means the same thing now.
In my experience the tone of your typical conversation on the Paizo forums is more calm and rational than your typical WotC forum conversation, and less likely to be overtaken by immature ass hats trying to win the conversation instead of simply participating in it. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 07:40:44
It doesn't seem that anyone has brought this up, but D&D and Pazio community are the bloody same thing, one would not exist largely without the other.
I think 3.5 had about...60 or so books published
4e is around 30 I think, which is still a good number considering how strong the competition is and supposed bad bits. |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 04:42:19
I concur with Arcanamach...the rules I can take or leave, and in all honesty will only purchase 5e if I have reason to (ie. a regular gaming group that wants to play it), otherwise I will take what I like and incorporate it into my homebrew...
As for the Realms material, I agree that the constant repackaging of old material with only minor tweaks is a no go...and if WotC wants to improve upon it's sells they will need to actually release substantial amounts of "new" lore that makes it worth buying... |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 04:33:54
I'll hold to what I've said before, I will read new material before actually buying anything (time was that was the opposite, buying anything new DnD related used to be automatic with me). Frankly, I'm tired of new additions every 5 years...the money adds up and the improvements are usually not worth the escalating prices. That said, I will do my level best to 'talk myself into' the expenditure...provided Wizbro cranks out a decent product.
As for buying new Realms products, I can buy that without a good ruleset to go with it...provided we get NEW lore (as in releases of NDA material we've been waiting on for decades now) and not simply redoing old material. Getting an 'updated' Undermountain, for instance, is useless to me without giving us new levels to explore over and above those previously described. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 03:09:23
I don't think they'll necessarily sink together, if it's 5e's destiny to sink... which I don't think it is. I think the Realms will survive any other terrible ruleset changes. The other direction is more iffy, but 4e has done pretty well considering the Spellplague fiasco. I mean, on the surface, the reaction to the changes in the Realms was so strongly negative (from some quarters at least) that it seems remarkable to me that any 4e products sold at all.
I would have given 4e more of a fair shot in spite of my feelings, if I had a gaming group. I bought the PH knowing that I was going to take a pass on the Campaign Guide. I anticipate others felt the same way: just because the 4e Realms went to Nessus... that doesn't mean the rules aren't worthwhile. I just couldn't justify immediately rushing to learn a system I wasn't going to be playing or DMing in (and couldn't afford to buy, all on my own).
I'm not happy with the Mage in the playtest packet, but joining the church of Loviatar... I mean asking about it on the WotC boards... has illuminated a couple of details that make it salvageable, but also a couple of other things I'm not yet enthused about.
I think the rulesets are easier to save, because we can house rule stuff pretty easily and because we're all snowflakes anyway so we kinda have (or should have anyway) an expectation when we arrive at the table and arrange our dice that the dynamic of each group is going to be a little different.
Saving a sinking setting is harder... less complicated, but a more significant task. The setting is supposed to be a foundation for campaigns and when that gets blown up rather than conscientiously built then the changes have to be thrown out en masse and order restored. And a lot of folks just say "ain't nobody got time fo dat!"
On the plus side, the Realms is a very big ship and that makes it very hard to sink. It's actually easier to disregard an entire edition, including both the changes in the setting and the rip-roarin ruleset that came with it... rather than kill the Realms.
Having rambled once again I'll just observe that centering D&D Next in the Realms is fairly likely to be a large error in judgment. |
| Plaguescarred |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 03:02:28
I have been thrilled by my playtest experience and by how the it has come a long way and how it look good today. Its about to enter a new phase into its developpement and i can't wait to see it released!
As for WoTC new community, it has been a bad move for my private gaming and pbp groups lost members and posts and also due to the loss of friends list (i had over 200+) which i was relying on to organize D&D sessions on virtual table and letting people know through broadcast. I still feel the lack of functionality for pbp games such as lack of color text and underline feature for exemple and hope it will upgrade over time. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 00:29:02
Well, supposedly FR is going to be the focus of 5e, at least at first. That makes the rules more important to us this time out then ever before (because if its all tied together, they will sink or swim together).
Sorry for the bit of a harsh tone - I had just come from a very aggravating hour and a half of struggling with web stupidity. I am sure all of us has had a 'bad website' experience... maybe I am just unlucky when it comes to the WotC boards.
I haven't looked at the packet yet - I only just got home (my new memory arrived!  ) - but I am very much looking forward to it. I find it heartening to know the Paizo community (many of whom used to be the D&D community) are still open-minded, and are also looking forward to D&Dn's release (for the most part). I think they may be giving it a fairer shake then some of us are/were. That's a huge deal, IMHO.
I think we should all be doing this - letting go of the hard feelings and giving D&Dn (and 5eFR) the shot it deserves. Sometimes I forget we are just a tiny little subset of a much larger gaming community, and maybe thats a good thing.
EXCELSIOR! |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 21:32:19
Right. CK is a Realms fansite. The D&D ruleset, while not inconsequential, is not the primary focus of these boards. The Realms are, and there's been plenty of discussion of the 5e Realms based on the (very) little that we know. So lambasting CK for not discussing 5e seems a little off-point to me.
Now, as to WotC not having a clue how to run a community website, well, that was proved in spades years ago. Though they keep grinding everyone's noses in their lack of capacity over and over, it's hardly news. |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 21:14:50
The WotC site isn't bad, and there are plenty of articles worth the visit, however, their forums/boards/community pages are annoying and get a complete overhaul nearly every other year.
As to the lack of discussion here at the Keep...well after reading their NDA that is involved with the play tests, and given WotC's crack down on fansites following the release of 4e, I didn't want to get the Keep or any of the scribes into trouble by discussing something that so far has little impact on the Realms (well aside from some of the mini-adventures/encounters).
But I am more than happy to discuss it, so long as no one (namely the powers that be here at the Keep) is worried about upsetting WotC in doing so . |
| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 17:59:36
After seeing Markustay's post, I'm glad I've never visited WotC's site! (... is what I'd like to say, but the other posts have left me with mixed feelings on the subject.) |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 17:54:07
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Any Rules we can adopt from D&D next?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
NOTHING said on this site has changed my mind... despite it being a 'fansite' of a D&D setting, and despite the fact that many of our scribes are freelancers (and I suspect secret in-house) people, authors and designers!
My impression, perhaps from one of the earlier downloads and perhaps just from my own imagination, was that playtesters are under a sort of "on your honor" non-disclosure agreement. At least some of the stuff is stamped "Do not distribute" which implies to me that you're also not supposed to quote it. I'm probably erring on the side of caution, but given that I've devoted most of every hour I'm awake to reading/writing/thinking Realms material for the last 25+ years, I'd rather not be sued into debtors prison and barred from ever posting anything online again. So caution seems cool.
That being said, I think we should all invest some effort into the playtest rules. Actually, I think we should have invested at this point, because the current packet is the last packet. So everyone should make a point of going and getting it now and making their voice heard because it's clearly stated that this is the last opportunity we'll have before 5e hits the shelves... most likely just in time for Christmas of 3462 AD.
Regarding talking about it on Candlekeep... it would probably be good, but only in limited ways. Some of us have strongly-held opinions which are absolutely opposed to WotC's approach to game design, and we should probably limit those to WotC's forums, or even recognize the futility of swaying them and keep it to ourselves. Some have questions regarding the meaning/intent/minutiae of the playtest rules, and those belong on WotC's forums too. Feedback goes to them too. Finally, D&D Next has zero relevance to the Realms so far, except that the dragonborn race has been added to the test packet.
So if there's something you want to talk about, but it's not inflammatory and you remember that WotC probably isn't checking our community for feedback, and you can talk about it without quoting anything, go for it. Some here would be interested in trading stories, and some would be interested in reading those stories.
If they were to have a playtest packet of the upcoming 5e changes in the Realms, we should devour that and discuss it 24/7, with frequent missives being fired off to WotC from all corners.
But the ruleset is of moderate to low importance. We're going to house rule the bejeebus out of it anyway, amirite?
Just my rambling take on it. I've downloaded 5 or 6 of the packets, but I haven't completely read through any of them; just bits and pieces. I would have probably read more if there was a discussion about them here rather than WotC's boards because every time I go over there I leave feeling more disgusted than I was when I arrived. The problem with waiting until it hits the shelves is that at that point you no longer have any hope of influencing anything. There's nothing to do except put up with it, being happy about the good parts and upset about the crappy parts. The playtest packets offer a chance to sound off about things before they're set in stone. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 15:50:20
I bear in mind that WotC, at least the part of it which makes D&D, is busy developing their new launch. We know about the beta rules and all that stuff, we can see how they appear to be making genuine efforts to feel out their market, listen to feedback from the fans, and deliver an optimal product. Many of us are harshly critical because we‘ve seen WotC deliver some poor offerings, substandard products, and broken promises in the past - a poor track record in the eyes of many fans, but that‘s neither here nor there.
I‘m willing to believe that they‘re busy working on tons of material to support their new D&D edition. Sourcebooks, settings, novels ... that stuff takes a lot of time to produce so it‘s probably already in the pipeline. It‘s happened with every D&D release in the past, this iteration won‘t be any different because TSR/Wizbro has learned well how to ride the edition wave to the bank. And they‘re a business, not a charity, so I don‘t fault them ... customers gotta pay for the upgraded version, same as they‘d have to pay for the latest version of a computer or car.
WotC has embraced digital publishing, eBooks, online content, and other such fare quite strongly. Not so hard, really, since (aside from ESdB and his archaic typewriter) their writers already write their stuff on computers, it‘s a simple matter to convert their work into a WotC-preferred format and stuff it into an electronic licensing/branding envelope.
But it has long been apparent that WotC lacks savvy in the technological arena. Their apps are few and far between, clunky and far below par for the software market. They ePublish through other companies, forced to accept whatever revenue model they‘re given by those who know what they‘re doing on the web. Their website has always been cantankerous and unreliable under the hood, online content is often lost indefinitely, and it suffers a lot of needless downtime.
My opinion, and advice, is that it‘s best to snag a copy of every freebie they post up (and they give us a lot of freebies, just remember that when excoriating them) because one day - without notice - it‘ll disappear forever. And avoid DDI because, frankly, their website is burdened by too many technical, administrative, and corporate issues to offer a reliable product. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 15:36:47
I definitely like some of the stuff they've done with 5E, but I'm not too worried about rule sets myself. I really do like their Reclaiming Blindgenstone adventure. Their Caves of Chaos adventure was pretty OK too for getting started. I do like sandbox style adventures though. ;)
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 15:04:45
I didn't have too much difficulty digging up an old login when I signed up for the DDI a few weeks ago... |
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