| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Sep 2013 : 17:55:47
In this thread which is still live, I kind of sidetracked the topic of the crown of horns and Myrkul's hand in its creation.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18257&whichpage=3
However, it seems to have brought out some interesting ideas in my head of Myrkul's pre-deity history.... and some lore that was released in 4e that I never would have known about. I'm starting this thread in order to bring out any canon lore that might help solidify or steer the discovery on this topic (I'm inclined to let canon lore guide the endpoint, not try to derive an endpoint and throw in lore to support that end... so I'm looking for people to find the canon loopholes that shoot down what I'm proposing below).
So, one of the main things we were discussing is that Dungeon 170 reveals some lore that Myrkul was "Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghôm". Also, its discussed that Myrkul is stated as having created the Crown of Horns in VGtatM (and its heavily implicated that this means the original creation, not just its current incarnation since the ToT). Also, its discussed that the first mention of said crown is when the Netherese mage Trebbe is studying it in -2267 DR (per Netheril: EoM) and dies while working on it in -2237 DR. Its also said that the site where Trebbe is working on the crown of horns (Netherese enclave of Shadowtop Borough) is also where it was created.
This brings up the question of when was Murghom founded?
In order to try to answer that question, I searched GHotR, and I find no entry for its foundation... only that Mulhorand expanded into it around -1500 DR.
This also brings up the question of did Murghom worship the Mulan gods prior to their annexation?
The mulan gods descended into Imaskar from the Teyla Shan/Godswatch mountains, which is on the eastern side of Semphar in -2488 DR. Skuld, the city which eventually becomes the capital of Unther is founded in -2135 DR per GHOTR. So, there is 353 years between the fall of Imaskar and the formation of the Mulan peoples into Mulhorand. I'd think it fairly safe to assume that some of the Mulan people were involved in the foundation of Murghom, and that said country MAY have been around even prior to Mulhorand.
This also brings up the question of "was Trebbe working to create the artifact and Myrkul came in and twisted the man's research somehow in -2237 DR, causing his death and turning the item into the crown of horns artifact"?
I think this is a mystery we should delve into, but at present, I have little to no canon information to drive it in any direction. The main thing I see here is that this would put Myrkul, who is from the "Far East" being involved in the "Northwest" with the Netherese Empire.
If Myrkul was a crown prince of Murghom, and if Murghom was worshipping the Mulan gods, is it possible that Myrkul was actually an incarnation of a Mulan god (either Mulhorandi or Untheric) <this didn't make them a deity, it made them a mortal incarnation of a deity, and each new generation produced new incarnations... and many of these family lines were aasimar>?
IF they did worship Mulan deities, I'd find this more than just possible. I'd find it probable. Also, given that Murghom developed separately from both Mulhorand and Unther, I'd suppose that they possibly worshipped some of the deities who weren't as well liked. This could include some of the Untheric deities who died late during the Orcgate wars. Of all the deities, I'd think him being an incarnation of the Untheric deity Nergal to be the most interesting.
If we accept the above question about Myrkul and Trebbe as true, why was Myrkul involved with the Netherese Empire as a mortal?
Could it be that, being an incarnation of gods, Myrkul saw the Netherese empire as a future threat similar to Imaskar. Perhaps he was working against the Netherese. However, Myrkul was also a wizard, so perhaps he was stealing secrets.
Another question becomes, was the crown of horns something akin to a phylactery for Myrkul while he was a mortal?
Given what its become now, I'd think this highly possible. Not necessarily a lich phylactery, but some kind of tool that he used to hold his life force, or maybe transfer his life force, or stop his aging. He may have also become some kind of "incorporeal being" and used certain magics to allow him to interact with the real world again (maybe a pair of "ghost touch" gloves and a robe that hid his ethereal nature).
Now, I'm just going to throw out some general ideas that are popping in my head, and maybe they'll take someone down a path I'm not seeing. These are all based on the prior questions holding water.
Assuming that he was an incarnation of a mulan deity, is there a deity that would fit better than Nergal, lord of the Underworld?
Did Myrkul choose to extend his life because he knew that Nergal would absorb his soul... so he was in essence flaunting the will of the deity of death that he was an incarnation of?
Was Myrkul involved with the Theurgist Adepts movement under Thayd (on either side)?
Did Myrkul have any involvement with Nergal's manifestation's death during the Orcgate wars in -1071 DR? Was he affected in any way by it?
Finally, just because I'm talking about Thayd, I'd like to provide my variation of what happened to him.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15785 |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 01:58:58
quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
A Netherese origin seems strange given that the lack of Netherese magic in general has been explained by the quasi-magical nature of the objects created by the enclaves. The objects are linked to the enclaves' various mythals.
It would seem strange for the Crown of Horns to be the exception to the rule, and if the Netherese Arcanists were interested in making non-mythal linked artifacts there would be many more such items.
Trebbe was making an artifact using the Nether Scrolls, not a plain old magic item.
-- George Krashos |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Jan 2018 : 00:18:07
They did create both types. After all, they traveled about, even to other worlds.
That part about mythal-powered magical items was just added for game-purposes, so that there wouldn't be a need for thousands of working magical items to be floating around. Same goes for the drow items (which in 2e, were also 'quasi-magical', but use Faersrezz as a power-source instead). Otherwise, adventurers would just make a fortune looting the drow bodies.
EDIT:
And now you have me thinking about SJ 'Mythal-Helms'.  |
| nblanton |
Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 21:27:58
A Netherese origin seems strange given that the lack of Netherese magic in general has been explained by the quasi-magical nature of the objects created by the enclaves. The objects are linked to the enclaves' various mythals.
It would seem strange for the Crown of Horns to be the exception to the rule, and if the Netherese Arcanists were interested in making non-mythal linked artifacts there would be many more such items. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 20:12:00
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In fact, the temple probably predated the founding of Yulash... it may have even been the impetus for its founding.
This IS canon, the part about the temple predating Yulash at least, as the elves destroyed the whole thing (the above ground part at least).
On yet another side note, why is it the elves ALWAYS do this? How many times can you lock away an enemy and have them come get you a thousand years later before you figure out its a bad idea?
Rephrasing what you just asked may help that question: How many times can you put people in prison, only to realize it just turns them into harder criminals, most of which come out and repeat their crimes..... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 20:00:28
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In fact, the temple probably predated the founding of Yulash... it may have even been the impetus for its founding.
This IS canon, the part about the temple predating Yulash at least, as the elves destroyed the whole thing (the above ground part at least).
On yet another side note, why is it the elves ALWAYS do this? How many times can you lock away an enemy and have them come get you a thousand years later before you figure out its a bad idea?
Elves simply aren't powerful enough, or perhaps Corellon forbids them from 'destroying utterly' anything, which may go all the way back to the Dawn War. Perhaps what I said above applies - Corellon and other 'Elder Gods' are simply too forgiving to get the proper job done. You need folks with ZERO moral compass to be effective in the 'ultimate confrontation'.
Yet... they have no problem exterminating humans en mass. Jealousy, much? Maybe Corellon is still peeved HIS people are not the Race of Destiny. In his own haughty way, he is nerfing the efforts of humanity from solving the fundamental problem (instability) of the universe, and thus jeopardizing EVERYTHING because of his ego. Sounds like an Elven god to me.
Ya know... pictures of fiends in the Bible and other sources do always draw them with pointed ears... 
"Things aren't always what they seem, and gods lie most of all" - Ed Greenwood |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 19:54:51
And now another possible connection after I just reread what I wrote (seriously, sometimes I write so fast I go back and surprise myself LOL)
The Sojournor - what if he became aware of these 'Dark Shards' and managed to replicate the process, with himself as the center of 'the virus'? He sure as hell was powerful enough to do god-level tinkering. Thus, the Weave Anchors were really just his own, homebrewed version of the Dark Shards. He made them out of Celestials/fiends (outsiders), and then got the 'anchor' out of them (their hearts?). Of course, not nearly as powerful as the Shard of Pure Evil or its lesser artifacts, but he could have gotten the idea from them, given thats its a similar process to what I imagine is going on with them.
Also, it seems the Dark Shards are also capable - at least sometimes - of creating a magnificent fortress out of Ice (Zengyi, The Crystal Shard. I guess that means Kryptonians really were evil all along (and anyone who gets that reference is as big a nerd as I). For whatever reason, ice seems to have some sort of primal connection to 'unlife' (scientifically speaking, inert = 'No Life', and energy {motion catalyst} = 'Life'). Maybe the old saying, "When Hell freezes over' is a reference to the end of the universe, when even the eternal infernal fires of hell are extinguished, and all life (in this universe) is destroyed (both a reference to the purpose of the Shard of Pure Evil itself, and also a nod to the Narnia stories). It puts a slightly different spin on whats going on with the Raven Queen (she became partially corrupted when she absorbed Nerull's power).
It also changes our concept of devils, somewhat. They are actually fighting the good fight. Asmodeus just decided 'The Gods' were too big a pansies to get the job done the right way - you have to become an unrelenting tyrant when it comes to 'the enemy'. It gives him a bit of a 'Doctor Doom' vibe ("the world WILL be a better place once I am in charge"). Sometimes 'evil' with a purpose isn't truly evil at all - its just a complete lack of empathy in order to be as efficient (ruthless) as possible. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 19:50:44
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In fact, the temple probably predated the founding of Yulash... it may have even been the impetus for its founding.
This IS canon, the part about the temple predating Yulash at least, as the elves destroyed the whole thing (the above ground part at least).
On yet another side note, why is it the elves ALWAYS do this? How many times can you lock away an enemy and have them come get you a thousand years later before you figure out its a bad idea? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 19:37:58
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Regarding the black diamond and the shard of pure evil... we seem to keep running into these things where its some dark/black "shard"/"gem"/"star" ... it might be fun to kind of list out a bunch of these <snip>
I'm thinking much the same thing, but all of those 'lesser Shards' are created from the original - its like a 'Xaos Virus'.
And each dark/black/umbral/nether/icky/etc., stone/gem/shard/crystal/lump/etc., is a piece of some celestial beings - possibly even gods - whose hearts were used to create the lesser shards. less powerful 'umbral Shards' are created using celestials (angels, creatures of the 'exarch' tier). Greater 'Nether Shards' are created from the hearts of Gods themselves. the Black Diamond may be the greatest, most powerful of the 'lesser shards', created from the heart of an Elder god (Estelar of Primordial).
Come to think of it, I can use my own lore to fix the lore! What if Tharizdun does hold the original Shard of Evil - its HIS heart now! And his own, original, now-corrupted heart was the beautiful diamond that was corrupted and turned into the black one?
What if Tharizdun IS He Who Was, and the story of Tharizdun killing He Who Was is symbolic? Like how Darth Vader 'killed' Luke's father. I could put a whole new spin on the 'Race of Destiny' thing (the race HE CREATED would be the only one that can save him... save the universe... in its final hour).
I guess that makes the Gith the hand that got cut-off.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 19:29:23
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
By far the best description of the events that ruined Yulash that I've been able to find is from the Forgotten Realms Atlas (1990). Page 122 for those who still have it laying around. It also has a good picture of Yulash. No mention of the Crown or the Nine here, as it is mostly a description of Alias freeing Moander...
I have a crazy what if for you guys... some supposition that I know you all love.
What if what was left of Shadowtop Borough (the enclave that crashed with the Crown of Horns inside) eventually became the plateau that Yulash stood upon?
It's not a bad idea, but I'd question how the Crown managed to stay in one place for so long.
I'd say it was more likely it had traveled a while before coming to rest in Yûlash.
First it would have been buried in a mountain... then once it was recovered... say somewhere around 1200 years ago it might have become a holy relic of Moander because it would be the symbol of his greatest triumph, the corruption and murder of a whole enclave... remember Yulash was a site of his biggest / last temple that eventually got High Magic'd by the elves. Perhaps it was buried once again in the events that bound Moander. Then, a flight of dragons comes through, unintentionally stirs things up (by things I mean the earth under Yulash), and bingo-bango-boingo one very naughty Crown is released upon the world, free to do its dirtiest to any silver haired vixen who comes trolluping along with an octet of heroes.
One could even imagine the manipulation of Moander are what set the dragon flight in motion, as that was when he was manipulating the creation of Alias as well (so we know that while bound he still had the ability to manipulate events in the wider world, he just could not rampage away like all piles of refuse are want to do).
You responded before I could, but basically the same idea.
Moander would have known where the crown was, given his connections to Ghaunadaur/Tharizdun, and had his temple built on top of the site, and then had his followers search for it below the temple (it could have taken centuries, and we'd have a veritable maze of tunnels going on below Yulash... not to shabby for a D&D setting, eh?)
In fact, the temple probably predated the founding of Yulash... it may have even been the impetus for its founding. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 19:26:19
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do enjoy your wacky home brew Markustay. Always so complicated and thorough.
It HAS TO be complicated, in order to get all the 'facts' to work (and although Eric's writings aren't canon these days, most of us here consider them 'sacrosanct').
This way, Jergal could have created the Crown, but left it 'unfinished'. Jergal's no dummy - if he knew what the Black Diamond was, he would NOT have wanted to wear the crown on his own head. He may have created a 'false crown' (Crown of Thorns?) to wear himself, that somehow linked him to the owner of the real crown, and all he did when he handed Myrkul 'his' crown was do a cheap magician's switcharoo (sleight-of-hand). Pretty simple for a dude with god-powers and six arms.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 16:34:17
Regarding the black diamond and the shard of pure evil... we seem to keep running into these things where its some dark/black "shard"/"gem"/"star" ... it might be fun to kind of list out a bunch of these
For instance, we have that Zaltec kills his mother Maztica with a "maca with a killing edge of darkness". Now, Maca's having obsidian edging them, so that's easy to explain away and just say its just a reference to Obsidian.
However, what if its not. What if there was some kind of black "stone"/"gem" that's duplicating/breeding as part of some primordial entity. What if that maca was edged with the same essence/shards of what also was carved up as "the black diamond"?
Take it further in some other directions. Talos has this weird eye filled with stars that he covers with an eyepatch. What if his eye was jabbed out with a shard of this pure evil blackness that's related to entropy, and his eyepatch is what was created to help him keep it under control.
We also have this special form of obsidian being crafted in Maztica known as "plumastone". It might be worth having it be that this is a special black stone being mined from the body of a primordial. In fact, this plumastone could very much be similar to the felliron mined from the body of Telos by the warlock knights of Vaasa, but a mineral, not a metal. The fact that most of this "plumastone" will be used to make weapons of death and destruction should make one wonder about the fact that its being associated with "peaceful" pluma magics. It should be noted that this "plumastone" also only became available after the recent appearance of Zaltec about 2 decades prior to the spellplague but after the ToT.
We also have the "black star" that Dove smashed.
It might be interesting if at the heart of Selune as well if there were some other similar material, but not dark... and this is why the inhabitants of Selune don't want miners to ever get in there. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 15:44:16
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
By far the best description of the events that ruined Yulash that I've been able to find is from the Forgotten Realms Atlas (1990). Page 122 for those who still have it laying around. It also has a good picture of Yulash. No mention of the Crown or the Nine here, as it is mostly a description of Alias freeing Moander...
I have a crazy what if for you guys... some supposition that I know you all love.
What if what was left of Shadowtop Borough (the enclave that crashed with the Crown of Horns inside) eventually became the plateau that Yulash stood upon?
It's not a bad idea, but I'd question how the Crown managed to stay in one place for so long.
I'd say it was more likely it had traveled a while before coming to rest in Yûlash.
First it would have been buried in a mountain... then once it was recovered... say somewhere around 1200 years ago it might have become a holy relic of Moander because it would be the symbol of his greatest triumph, the corruption and murder of a whole enclave... remember Yulash was a site of his biggest / last temple that eventually got High Magic'd by the elves. Perhaps it was buried once again in the events that bound Moander. Then, a flight of dragons comes through, unintentionally stirs things up (by things I mean the earth under Yulash), and bingo-bango-boingo one very naughty Crown is released upon the world, free to do its dirtiest to any silver haired vixen who comes trolluping along with an octet of heroes.
One could even imagine the manipulation of Moander are what set the dragon flight in motion, as that was when he was manipulating the creation of Alias as well (so we know that while bound he still had the ability to manipulate events in the wider world, he just could not rampage away like all piles of refuse are want to do). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 13:09:03
I believe I've suggested previously that the Crown could have been created in Netheril by someone else, and Myrkul later absorbed that creator into himself. So the creator is thus part of Myrkul, and Myrkul can be said to have created the Crown, even if it predates the guy using the name now.
We also know that some long-lived types have used various names and identities over the years... So Myrkul could actually be thousands of years old -- maybe he was working his way towards godhood long before he met Bane and Bhaal. So he could have spent time as a Netherese arcanist, before eventually shedding that persona and assuming another, eventually assuming the name Myrkul just in time to meet the other two members of the Dark Three. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 13:03:56
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
By far the best description of the events that ruined Yulash that I've been able to find is from the Forgotten Realms Atlas (1990). Page 122 for those who still have it laying around. It also has a good picture of Yulash. No mention of the Crown or the Nine here, as it is mostly a description of Alias freeing Moander...
I have a crazy what if for you guys... some supposition that I know you all love.
What if what was left of Shadowtop Borough (the enclave that crashed with the Crown of Horns inside) eventually became the plateau that Yulash stood upon?
It's not a bad idea, but I'd question how the Crown managed to stay in one place for so long.
I'd say it was more likely it had traveled a while before coming to rest in Yûlash. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 09:12:19
By far the best description of the events that ruined Yulash that I've been able to find is from the Forgotten Realms Atlas (1990). Page 122 for those who still have it laying around. It also has a good picture of Yulash. No mention of the Crown or the Nine here, as it is mostly a description of Alias freeing Moander...
I have a crazy what if for you guys... some supposition that I know you all love.
What if what was left of Shadowtop Borough (the enclave that crashed with the Crown of Horns inside) eventually became the plateau that Yulash stood upon? |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 08:45:29
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Canon Facts:
A) First, Myrkul was a crown prince of Murghom
B) Myrkul created the crown of horns
C) The crown of horns existed at least prior to -2267 DR
D) at some point around -2267 DR the crown of horns fell into the hands of a Netherese Archmage who studied it for 30 years until it killed him.
B-D Very questionable... Not Facts :P See previous replies |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 08:25:47
I do enjoy your wacky home brew Markustay. Always so complicated and thorough.
|
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 08:20:38
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
As far as the creation goes, the waters of canon are pretty murky.
I quoted some of the sources in a previous post, but the gist is that Volo's claims Myrkul created the Crown, and implies (but doesn't directly state) that he created the original Crown - not just the ToT-altered version. Meanwhile, Netheril: Empire of Magic claims the Crown was created in Shadowtop Borough in Netheril around -2,237 DR. It doesn't specifically state that it was Trebbe that created it, but it does state on p8 of the Enclyclopedia Arcana that arcanists created it. Trebbe was the arcanist who created the floating enclave, so it makes sense that if anyone was using the Nether Scrolls to turn a magical crown into an artifact, it would be him.
Then, you've got the kind of shanked version in Magic of Faerun:
"Myrkul created the crown while he was still a living deity, and it was eventually broken by the efforts of Khelben the Blackstaff."
This sentence just doesn't line up with the Netheril lore. And it doesn't line up with it becoming "Myrkul-created" in the ToT.
As far as Eric's Jergal-version goes, much as I love Eric's work, I wouldn't use that unless he expands on it further. I went to his thread to ask him, but someone else has already done so and he hasn't replied. So, I'm just going to pretend I didn't see him write that Shadelorn created it and then Jergal altered it...
I've done my best to reconcile the N:EoM and the VGtATM stories, but I'm not in love with my version either. I think it's what I'll go with though.
Just pointing out that NEoM does straight out say Trebbe made the Crown.
Also, Volo's guide seems to be a reprint of City of Splendors... unfortunate because if it was just Volo I'd say that the roguish writer made one of his common blunders. City of Splendors is written in what seems to be Steven Schend's own voice.
The only other direct contradiction I've noticed up to this point (2nd E) is that it was described as iron in the stronghold of the nine and then electrum later.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 08:19:21
*I'm going to put the footnote here, because I ran over-long (what a surprise). 
I don't think the Black Diamond IS the shard of Pure Evil. I think that may even be a part of Tharizdun now. I don't really like saying its 'a piece of the shard', either. However, the shard - either directly or through Tharizdun -can corrupt other things - its like a virus. A virus of Pure Evil. What I think the Black Diamond might actually be is the pure heart of a fallen god that died during the Dawn War which was then corrupted (probably to keep it from coming back - maybe even He Who Was). So I am picturing the heart as a beautiful clear jewel that was touched with the Shard and then it turned black.
Since I think the Black Diamond Affair (with the Fey) took place before Abeir-Toril was sundered (because the GHotR says they left before then), it stands to reason it could have been involved there before being given over to Jergal. I unfortunately do not have the Lord of the End of Everything article, so I can't place it more precisely, but we are talking about 25K+ years before the rise of Netheril, so plenty of room for shoe-horning.
Jergal may have also tried the Crown with other groups - perhaps the elves, or even Imaskar, before going with the Netherese. My thoughts here are that he was passing it off as an incomplete greater artifact, so that he could trick powerful mages in fiddling with it (thinking they were completing it, when really they were just activating the thing).
"Now Witness the Firepower of this fully Armed and Operational Battle Station" ....errr.. I mean artifact. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 08:04:08
Well, its looks like there is almost a 3000-year period where the Crown was missing, between the fall of Netheril and it being discovered in Yulash (it could easily be "a ruin in Yulash"). Anything could have happened between then, including MY scenario of Myrkul getting ahold of it while he was still mortal.
Moander is an FR-specific aspect of Ghuanadaur, and Ghaunadaur is the 'Evil Elder eye', which is another name for Tharizdun ("his names are legion"). Tharizdun, as in the Elder God who was the first to interact with the Shard of Pure Evil. There is no conflict here - Moander was just watching-over an artifact (technically a relic, if we are associating it with gods) of the Dark God, which it is an aspect of. Now here's what I think happened in regards to Jergal and the Netherese...
Jergal interacted with the Netherese, discreetly. He wasn't the only one - the Terraseer is another, and in my own lore I have Hilather there as well (The Netherese weren't nearly as powerful as their hubris lead them to believe - many 'beings of power' walked among them in secret, each with its own agenda). Jergal fashioned the Crown of Horns in the distant past, probably around the time of the Dragon Empires. As part of the Crowns construction, he set a huge black Jewel in it, given to him by Tharizdun or one of Tharizdun's many aspects. The Jewel is a piece of the Shard of Pure Evil.* Many millennia later, Jergal (in disguise) gives an unactivated (deactivated?) Crown to Trebbe, hoping to find someone he could control through the Crown. Trebbe wasn't powerful enough to activate the Crown properly and blew himself up. Jergal then passes the Crown onto Requiar, who does manage to activate it, but he is still not as powerful as jergal would like his puppet to be. The Crown is 'lost' again, and then later found by Shadelorn (who was possibly steered toward it by Jergal), who had whatever Jergal was looking for (I'm thinking a connection to 'Shadow Magic', given the name). But before Shadelorn can set Jergal's grand scheme in motion, Karsus casts his tragic spell and Netheril falls.
Some time later, after much searching for 'the perfect host', Jergal comes upon a young prince of Murghôm - one fascinated by 'Shadowy magic' (necromancy). Myrkul is given the Crown and is instantly taken with it. Jergal's plans will finally see fruition. After a few failed attempts at starting up their own churches in the old Empires, Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal team-up and go hunting for the seven lost gods (*cough* at the prompting of Kiputytto *cough*), and they systematically destroy these gods, until they get to the last one; they fight Moander in his temple just outside Yulash and destroy it as well, with the resulting explosion taking at the entire temple complex and surrounding neighborhood (and yet, not completely destroying Yulash proper). This causes the death-ascension of the Dark Three, who go to the Outer Planes and make their deals with Jergal, who had been waiting for them. The Crown, BTW - being a physical object - did NOT 'ascend' with Myrkul, so it lay there in the ruins of the temple for Laeral to find later on.
Moander played its part perfectly - it knew it would arise again... it always does. You can't truly kill a god unless you destroy the archtype. All it really needed was just a tiny 'divine spark' to get it started again, and it was able to procure that through its cults (through Finder). It may have been promised it could use the Crown - which lay in the ruins of its temple - to make its 'come back', but Laeral took that away (she may also have been steered to the site by Jergal, but more probably Shar or some other dark god).
Shar was steering events in Netheril, after all - she may have even been trying to thwart Jergal's plans of becoming an Overpower (something she herself would loved to have become). Causing the Fall of Netheril likely accomplished several goals for Shar, and it most definitely set her own 'Dark Chronology' in motion (one could say the Fall of Netheril diverged prophesy down a darker side-path). I'm pretty sure she was able to snatch-back a good chunk of her power when her sister Mystryl died (and thats how we got the shadweave), and later, the three who arose as a result of that stole the Tablets of Fate and started the Avatar Crisis, which resulted in Mystra's death (where she was able to grab most of the rest of her power). It all goes round-and-round. In fact, Shar may have been pulling the strings of some who thought they were the puppet-masters (like Jergal) - I can definitely see her going to Tharizdun for the Black Diamond and telling him to give it to Jergal (both deities have a deep connection to Entropy, after all). |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 07:38:31
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
The Crown does appear in Yulash, and Moander was a god in the time of Netheril, and the Crown is a corrupting force of sorts... so a link is believable.
Also remember that Moander also has strong ties to Yulash. It seems strange to me that the two most important things about Yulash are that a major evil artifact is found buried for centuries in its ruins and a major evil deity buried for centuries in its ruins, and that both are returned to the Realms within 12 months. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 06:59:37
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Laeral was the Crown's prisoner from 1337 - 1357. Khelben sundered the Crown in 1357 and took its pieces back to Blackstaff Tower, where they stayed until Myrkul reforged them in his death throes in 1358.
The dates you note come (I assume) from Grand History which did its best to catalogue all the known dates of things in the Realms.
It is my assumption that the 1337 date was a typo. She could not have recovered the crown from the Ruins of Yulash in 1337, because Yulash was not ruins in 1337. The dates I provided are from the earliest references I know of... its possible Ed mentioned them earlier in Dragon Mag but I don't think so... and it seems they were largely forgotten. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 06:10:51
Laeral was the Crown's prisoner from 1337 - 1357. Khelben sundered the Crown in 1357 and took its pieces back to Blackstaff Tower, where they stayed until Myrkul reforged them in his death throes in 1358.
The Crown does appear in Yulash, and Moander was a god in the time of Netheril, and the Crown is a corrupting force of sorts... so a link is believable. Although it's a stretch, it's no more of a stretch than my theory about Myrkul's early involvement with it.
I actually think I like a Moander link a bit better than a Jergal link. But at the same time, it's already an artifact associated with a god - Myrkul - and nothing in the literature directly connects it to any other god. To associate it with a second god feels a little like overkill, but that's just my POV. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 05:48:54
I don't know where Eric got his Jergal idea, but I think the evil force behind the Crown of Horns was MOANDER.
The Earliest mention of the Crown I find is from The Savage Frontier (From 1988) which states that in 1358 DR:
1) Crown of Horns, a many-horned helm of unknown properties (one property should be obvious, it causes dissension and a desire to possess it)
2) Laeral (LAY-er-al)
The Stronghold of the Nine
24th level magic-user
LE, None (formerly: CG Mystra)
Human female, IN 18, DEX 16
Once the leader of the adventuring band known as the Nine, and known for the wondrous magical items that she crafted, she is now the leader of a major faction within their stronghold. Before the discovery of the Crown of Horns in the ruins of Yulash, she devotedly followed Mystra. Now, her mind warped by the crown, she works for no god (though evil forces often profit by her actions).
Those who remember the Laeral of old would be shocked to see her now. Mad eyes peer through unshorn locks turned snow white by rapid aging. Her musical voice is a gruesome cackle and her once-immaculate robes little more than rags. Visitors to The Stronghold of the Nine are treated like intruders by Laeral and her ex-comrades.
3)Date unknown. Well, this is where it ends, starving to death in a dank cell, imprisoned by another one of A. A.'s old "friends." I've tried to gauge time, but
with no natural light and infrequent meals, I can only guess.
"Will try to recap my situation (Tempus's Toes! Amelior's got me writing for posterity now!). Jhingleshod and I found the Stronghold of the Nine. It seemed deserted, so we snooped a bit. Maybe we could just "borrow" the potion and leave. We met Laeral. She seemed a bit different, nastier; than usual (or maybe it was
her hair). After a short argument (maybe 'cock-eyed witch" was a bad choice of words), I a woke here.
"Next time I'll try A. A.'s enemies, they might be more friendly. See if I ever do anything for One-eye again. Wonder if that cock-eyed witch is looking for the
stupid spikey crown I found in here. It sure makes for a lousy pillow." -Erek, ever-humble servant of Amelior Amanitas
LOVE that last bit...
The ruins of Yulash is interesting as that is where Moander was imprisoned. We also know exactly when Learal must have found the Crown there because there were only a few months between the time it was destroyed by the dragon Mist in the month of Kythorn (June) of 1356 and when the Zhents moved in and started rebuilding. We know all this from the O.G.B. As far as I can tell, all of this was forgotten by 2nd Edition because they stopped saying Yulash was destroyed by a dragon.
So in 1356 the 9 were in Yulash after it was destroyed and 2 years later Laeral was the mad witch... What is curious is that the Crown was just laying around... also I wonder if Elrem ended up with the crown...
We do know from all this that Laeral was not bound physically or through desire to the Crown (like a normal cursed item), as she just left it lying around... Does anyone else think this all sounds a little bit like the spell "Seed of Moander." Maybe Laeral was turned into a minion of a the dark god, infected other members of the 9 as well with her spores - they die (at least 2 died in those years, could not find who), but she doesn't die because the Silver Fire act like a constant potion of vitality preventing the seed from eating away at her. :P
The next time we see the crown mentioned much is in the Netheril box set. It says
1) Trebbe was killed in a spellcasting accident in 1622 when a magical crown he was working on exploded, destroying almost an entire city block of the enclave. The crown, which eventually became known as the Crown of Horns, wasn’t discovered again for hundreds of years.
2) In 2436, a ruthless archwizard named Requiar took control of the enclave in a brutal attack that left more than 30 of his peers dead. Wearing the Crown of Horns, Requiar ruled until 2651, when the Crown had finally driven him insane and a concerted effort to remove him succeeded. RUTHLESS BECAUSE OF THE CROWN'S CORRUPTION I ASSUME
3) In 3215, the Crown of Horns was discovered by the eager archwizard Shadelorn... skip a bit... Shadelorn’s research had been altered by the Crown of Horns, that now wanted revenge for its defeat years earlier...
4) it was also the site for the creation of an evil and twisted artifact, the Crown of Horns. A spellcasting accident in 1622 killed Trebbe while he was completing work on the Crown of Horns. TO ME IT SEEMS LIKE SOMETHING WENT WRONG WHILE HE WAS CREATING IT, LIKE MAYBE IT WAS TAMPERED WITH BY THE GOD OF CORRUPTION...
Remember that Moander is the god of CORRUPTION. This all fits very well with him as you ask me.
THEN 1358 comes along and Moander is destroyed and the Crown is lost... Some time thereafter Myrkul could have easily done his thing since the crown was no longer under the power of Moander. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 05:37:27
The Black Diamond stuff is really cool lore, Markustay.
Netheril: Empire of Magic doesn't specifically say the physical crown was invented in Netheril, but it does say the "Crown of Horns" was created there, in Shadowtop Borough, using the Nether Scrolls.
I could go either way on inserting Jergal into the Crown's story, I don't feel like it adds much, but it is an extra twist - though that twist does lessen the significance of its connection to Myrkul... mixed feelings.
Still tempted to use the black diamond/shard of evil stuff though, that's great. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2017 : 04:13:18
I thought the guys in Netheril were only experimenting with the Crown? I don't recall them actually creating it. I had always assumed it was an ancient artifact associated with several death-gods over tens of thousands of years.
Jergal would make some sense, if for Eric's write-up if nothing else. I believe Krash elaborated further on the subject with his own work. The Crown would have to go WAY back, from either the Spellweaver empire or soon after.
I also assumed that Myrkul first became involved with the crown when he was still a living Prince of Murghôm. He may have found/bought it, and then told people he created it when he began to wear it as his new 'princely crown' of office. Except it would have had a 'One Ring' sort of affect on anyone wearing it (slow corruption and eventual insanity). It may have been Jergal's plan all along for Myrkul to wind-up with the Crown. Myrkul may have been the first that heard the 'dark whispers' about becoming a god, and then he got the other two on board. Just because Bane was the ringleader doesn't mean it was all his idea. We got the Old Empires right to one side of Murghôm, and the Citadel of the old man (Sentinelspire) just north of there - easy to see how those three could have hooked-up.
Then they needed some 'lost Gods' to make their plan bear fruit, and they heard about a bunch in the Eastern Heartlands, so they traveled there. The rest is history. In fact, Myrkul may not have been a 'bad guy' right from the beginning - he may have thought the only way to counter Mulhorand's control over Murghôm was to become just like one of those 'godly manifestations'. Basically, he didn't want to be a puppet-king like his father, etc. Then he just started behaving worse and worse because of his association with the other two.
And being a death-god from the Old Empires isn't really the same as it would be from most European-like countries. The Egyptians respected death, and had a whole religion based around all the rituals and what-not. If Myrkul came from that background, even if he planned to be the 'death god' in the group, he probably didn't think of himself as the skeletal grim-reaper type (which makes it weird he ended up as that). He may have thought it was more of a 'noble calling'. Maybe the job got to him.
And as I said at the beginning, I really like the idea it may have been Jergal who got the whole ball rolling in the first place.
P.S. - I still think the Black Diamond in the crown is THE Black Diamond (from the Fey lore). And I still think that is a piece (I doubt the whole thing) of the 'Shard of Pure evil' introduced in the 4e cosmic canon (regarding the Obyriths and other 'elder evil' types). In fact, now that I am giving this new thought, it actually work beautifully to help fix a couple of things I was having trouble with, regarding the 'time before time' and the elder gods. Auril was NOT corrupted instantly as the fey story implies - the shard was found by the dwarves, who then cut and polished it into a beautiful Black Diamond to present to the Frost Sprite Princess (her sister was still only the princess of the Court of Stars. Auril takes it and thanks them for their gift. She is not only taken with its dark beauty, but she can feel (and perhaps access) the 'powers within'. She then fights on the side of 'the good guys' in the Dawn War, but slowly turns evil, so that when the Godswar breaks out, she sides with the dark Seldarine instead. She consumes her own realm in act of ultimate Defilement and uses that power against other gods. Her sister sees what she has done and become, and leads the rest of the fey out of the mortal (Material) world into the feywild (which Corellon told Danu about). Now cast-out of the fairy courts, she takes on the title of the Queen of Air & Darkness instead. Using the Black Diamond by itself in much the same way the Crown of Horns functions enables me to mesh the old Monster Mythology lore with the 4e lore. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 20:15:05
Alternately, he can be the god of the magic that creates liches - a subset of necromancy :P
This of course paves the path for Sammaster to show up again as the god of the magic that creates dracoliches. Uh-oh - snowball is a rollin' now :) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Dec 2017 : 14:51:02
I like the idea mentioned revolving around Myrkul in the past being involved somehow with the Netherese.
I agree that I'm kind of non-plussed about Myrkul coming back, but at the same time, I'm also not wanting to go against 5e canon on this. That being said, I'm also introducing new death gods (Ereshkigal, but she will be Untheric.... but I will be referencing her and the raven queen together). I'm also including Velsharoon, who is "like" Myrkul, except that he serves the goddess of magic.
One thing that MIGHT work as a story to go along with this.... I'm definitely having Velsharoon actually in Abeir for the last century. However, we have "canon" that Velsharoon was "killed" by the Simbul and then the people of Aglarond took the body. What if that being that the Simbul killed was actually Mellifleur, who maybe respawned in Toril while Velsharoon was gone. Maybe some cultists of Myrkul get ahold of this divine body, put the crown of horns on it, and they cast a ritual to "reawaken" Myrkul (possibly despite his own wants... nothing says that the divine have complete control). In this way, maybe Myrkul also takes a portfolio from Velsharoon (i.e. being god of liches), and maybe he even takes on another one in being a god of "mummies" and similar undead. Personally, I'm happy with Velsharoon simply being a god of necromantic magic even if it does somewhat reduce his power level. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 22:58:24
The explanation I like the most is that they are all different artifacts. "Crown of Horns" is such a generic name, over a 4000+ year history it is certainly not unreasonably to think that there could be multiple crowns with this name, especially since we know of at least one helmet that used the name.
This is the same way I handle the Imaskarcana. Many items that have been called by a name originally for specific items. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 20 Dec 2017 : 22:52:32
As far as the creation goes, the waters of canon are pretty murky.
I quoted some of the sources in a previous post, but the gist is that Volo's claims Myrkul created the Crown, and implies (but doesn't directly state) that he created the original Crown - not just the ToT-altered version. Meanwhile, Netheril: Empire of Magic claims the Crown was created in Shadowtop Borough in Netheril around -2,237 DR. It doesn't specifically state that it was Trebbe that created it, but it does state on p8 of the Enclyclopedia Arcana that arcanists created it. Trebbe was the arcanist who created the floating enclave, so it makes sense that if anyone was using the Nether Scrolls to turn a magical crown into an artifact, it would be him.
Then, you've got the kind of shanked version in Magic of Faerun:
"Myrkul created the crown while he was still a living deity, and it was eventually broken by the efforts of Khelben the Blackstaff."
This sentence just doesn't line up with the Netheril lore. And it doesn't line up with it becoming "Myrkul-created" in the ToT.
As far as Eric's Jergal-version goes, much as I love Eric's work, I wouldn't use that unless he expands on it further. I went to his thread to ask him, but someone else has already done so and he hasn't replied. So, I'm just going to pretend I didn't see him write that Shadelorn created it and then Jergal altered it...
I've done my best to reconcile the N:EoM and the VGtATM stories, but I'm not in love with my version either. I think it's what I'll go with though. |
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