| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 13:27:51
Am I the only one or are there others here hoping the pantheon is "reset" to an old enough "backup" that we get Jergal back?
Or would he even accept his old position? I know he was glad to get rid of it, but maybe he's seen what a mess the last couple of assended mortals have made of things he would like back in the game in a big way? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| coach |
Posted - 15 Sep 2013 : 20:37:47
some stretched exaggerations about Golarion in here because it isn't commonplace
And Mythic Rules are out NOW not next year, I have my book
Pathfinder Mythic = DnD 3.5 Epic
Pathfinder elected to go away from just levelling from 21-30 as their "epic" PC advancement to a more weird system
they usually hit homeruns to WotC's swinging and missing, but in this case gimme level advancement so in the score of beyond 20th level it is 3.5 WotC Epic 1 to Pathfinder Mythic 0 |
| Gyor |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 04:22:36
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Oh shut it already Bahhl, you were dead for a time, how did it feel to have a god over you.
That which lives by the sword , dies by the sword. An you died by your sword. Who would want to worship a god who died already :P
Baahl The domain of the murdered :P, You can help illimater.
Worshipper of Torm, Worshippers of Bane, Worshippers of Sharess/Zandilar, Worshippers of Gargos, Worshippers of Mystra, Worshippers of Horus-Ra, need I continue? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 03:44:59
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I think 5e could find some interesting way to incorporate Myrkul without making him a god again. Then again, I'm not too fond about bringing back every dead god just because Ao said so. I'm not convinced that more gods automatically equals a better setting.
Haven't they did it back in 2e with the Crown of Horns? 
I believe some folk were talking about that above...  |
| Barastir |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 21:18:44
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I think 5e could find some interesting way to incorporate Myrkul without making him a god again. Then again, I'm not too fond about bringing back every dead god just because Ao said so. I'm not convinced that more gods automatically equals a better setting.
Haven't they did it back in 2e with the Crown of Horns? |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 16:28:22
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Kelemvor's certainly a puzzle for 5E. I've never used him in my home Realms, because the ToT never happened, but I can understand why some people would like him. Eric Boyd, I think (?) did a really interesting take on the Kelemvor-Mystra relationship way back in his translation of the "Age of Worms" adventure path which was pretty cool.
Too many people like Kelemvor for WotC to just get rid of him, I think. Myself, I could absolutely enjoy 5E if Kelemvor decided to retire and die as a mortal, but I don't think that's very likely. So the puzzle is how best to keep Kelemvor.
I'm really not into the idea of a "Court of the Dead" because it really just doesn't seem "Realmsy" to me. Jergal as seneschal makes sense. But Myrkul wouldn't be any fun if he wasn't evil, though, and Kelemvor's entire purpose is to be passionless and neutral. I can't really see either one of those two "serving" the other, and certainly not in any kind of "court" system.
The questions here really seem to be, "what do you want the land of the dead to be?" and "what would be good for the narrative/adventuring avenues?" With Kelemvor you get gray/white silence and fairness, which is IMO pretty boring. With Myrkul you get mystery, fear, creepy priest stories, threats of punishment, and terrifying undead. I think Myrkul is ultimately better for the narrative story of the Realms. In many ways, Kelemvor served his purpose by being "the guy" who could take away Cyric rule of the land of the dead. I don't think we're really in any danger of that happening again. So is Kelemvor done? Is his purpose satisfied and he can retire? I think so.
I'd like to see Kelemvor entirely change and become the utterly neutral, passionless greater god that enforces whatever new "pact" AO has in mind. If any god steps out of their role too far, Kelemvor is the one who should work to put them back into their appropriate role.
Kelemvor might be a really good deity of Balance, Stability, and could even take the portfolio of Time - seeing that no being or entity (not gods, not humans, not elves) ever again disrupts the machinations of the universe.
I like your idea about Kelemvor being a deity of balance, but I'm also fine with him as he is. Other than nostalgia, I see no need to have Myrkul back as god of the dead. I wouldn't mind Myrkul as a demigod who opposes Kelemvor by showing mortals the path to undeath. Maybe even making pacts with them like a devil would.
But I doubt that Myrkul as god of the dead would make the Realms more interesting. I think that Kelemvor's order that hunts undead is plenty interesting. We have more than enough undead on Faerun, and I'd rather see a god actively opposing it rather than encouraging it. Even with Kelemvor in charge, few mortals are at peace with the idea of dying, and most use all means at their disposal to extend their lives.
I think Death should be just as neutral as Knowledge or Magic. WOTC got it right with Kelemvor. I think 5e could find some interesting way to incorporate Myrkul without making him a god again. Then again, I'm not too fond about bringing back every dead god just because Ao said so. I'm not convinced that more gods automatically equals a better setting. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 15:02:51
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I like Kelemvor as the god of death. I think we need a neutral god to fill such a role
I agree completely. I never much cared for Jergal when he was a god and frankly Kelemvor is doing a much better job. He really encompasses what it mean to be a god Of Death. |
| LordAo |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 06:46:53
Yeah, me and Jergal have talked. He is happy where he is at folks, leave the man be.
Although I am still considering the Simbuls various attitudes to be implanted into the new lady of magic goddess, she really needs some survival skills. Keeps rolling a natural one, when it comes to story plot. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 05:25:19
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
But those "spooky adventure plot hooks" can still work with Myrkul in the Crown of Thorns.
Are you actually arguing that a single magic item has as many potential plot hooks as a Greater Deity with a massive priesthood, a divine realm in the outer planes, and millions of other servants with diverse goals and objectives laid out by their patron deity?
Perhaps.
Though wouldn't this really depend, ultimately, upon the creativity of the campaign's individual DM? And/or, the homebrew lore that the DM has written to support the campaign?
|
| Therise |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 04:52:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
But those "spooky adventure plot hooks" can still work with Myrkul in the Crown of Thorns.
Are you actually arguing that a single magic item has as many potential plot hooks as a Greater Deity with a massive priesthood, a divine realm in the outer planes, and millions of other servants with diverse goals and objectives laid out by their patron deity?
|
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 04:33:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Indeed. All the fear and spooky, with none of the restrictions of being a deity -- it's a winning combo.
so he's like Jafar after Aladdin tricked him into the bottle? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 04:06:02
Indeed. All the fear and spooky, with none of the restrictions of being a deity -- it's a winning combo. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 03:46:33
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I also want to note that I hope Myrkul stays in the Crown of Horns. I think he's a lot more fun that way, instead of being a deity.
I hope not! Myrkul has millions of spooky adventure plot hooks that would never work with Kelemvor. Being locked to the Crown is just one thing - once you use it, then it becomes stale.
But those "spooky adventure plot hooks" can still work with Myrkul in the Crown of Thorns.
We know he "enjoys" his current state. Being somewhat removed from under Ao's divine thumb would certainly have its advantages... especially for a former deity who still likes to meddle in mortal affairs -- fear and terror can still be powerful "weapons of influence" in his arsenal, just as his unpredictability still would be. So still plenty of opportunity for those "spooky plot hooks" you're talking about. |
| Therise |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 19:52:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I also want to note that I hope Myrkul stays in the Crown of Horns. I think he's a lot more fun that way, instead of being a deity.
I hope not! Myrkul has millions of spooky adventure plot hooks that would never work with Kelemvor. Being locked to the Crown is just one thing - once you use it, then it becomes stale.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 19:07:39
I also want to note that I hope Myrkul stays in the Crown of Horns. I think he's a lot more fun that way, instead of being a deity. |
| Therise |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 18:50:19
Kelemvor's certainly a puzzle for 5E. I've never used him in my home Realms, because the ToT never happened, but I can understand why some people would like him. Eric Boyd, I think (?) did a really interesting take on the Kelemvor-Mystra relationship way back in his translation of the "Age of Worms" adventure path which was pretty cool.
Too many people like Kelemvor for WotC to just get rid of him, I think. Myself, I could absolutely enjoy 5E if Kelemvor decided to retire and die as a mortal, but I don't think that's very likely. So the puzzle is how best to keep Kelemvor.
I'm really not into the idea of a "Court of the Dead" because it really just doesn't seem "Realmsy" to me. Jergal as seneschal makes sense. But Myrkul wouldn't be any fun if he wasn't evil, though, and Kelemvor's entire purpose is to be passionless and neutral. I can't really see either one of those two "serving" the other, and certainly not in any kind of "court" system.
The questions here really seem to be, "what do you want the land of the dead to be?" and "what would be good for the narrative/adventuring avenues?" With Kelemvor you get gray/white silence and fairness, which is IMO pretty boring. With Myrkul you get mystery, fear, creepy priest stories, threats of punishment, and terrifying undead. I think Myrkul is ultimately better for the narrative story of the Realms. In many ways, Kelemvor served his purpose by being "the guy" who could take away Cyric rule of the land of the dead. I don't think we're really in any danger of that happening again. So is Kelemvor done? Is his purpose satisfied and he can retire? I think so.
I'd like to see Kelemvor entirely change and become the utterly neutral, passionless greater god that enforces whatever new "pact" AO has in mind. If any god steps out of their role too far, Kelemvor is the one who should work to put them back into their appropriate role.
Kelemvor might be a really good deity of Balance, Stability, and could even take the portfolio of Time - seeing that no being or entity (not gods, not humans, not elves) ever again disrupts the machinations of the universe.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 17:56:45
/AGREE with everything Jeremy said.
Love the visuals....  |
| Bhaal |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 16:00:33
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I envision Myrkul as that which shows up when you're on death's door.
Showing up on "death's door" is my province. Myrkul might show up at a funeral to remind people that no one escapes him, but I am the arbiter of death itself.
Sure, I do the whole murder thing as my iconic thing. But death can be quick and sudden or it can also be slow in coming or even painless. I am the harvester who delivers souls to Myrkul.
quote:
A separate portrait featuring Bane ought to have one of Jergal's many hands on his shoulder too, hinting that Jergal may hold influence beyond the Court of the Dead.
This has never been the case since we Three ascended. I doubt that Jergal would be interested in taking on additional duties at this point, as he seems quite comfortable as the Scrivener of Doom.
quote:
There are also hands on the shoulders of Bhaal and Myrkul, suggesting Jergal's many arms (like a Spellweaver) and that perhaps Jergal holds more influence in the Court of the Dead than Kelemvor.
No, no thanks. Neither Myrkul nor I would serve Kelemvor. Count me as totally against a "Court of the Dead" idea also. It's one thing to have deities that complement each other and work in tandem, it's another thing entirely to picture some weird kind of "family portrait" of dead deities. No thanks to that.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 15:46:19
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Sage can you point to a thread about that or was it a personal discussion?
I'll have to look it up. [I recall it was a specific discussion about the Time portfolio.] I've got a copy saved in my archives, but I doubt you'll find that useful.
Ah, yes, Arcanamach, here's the original discussion scroll.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 15:42:13
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Sage can you point to a thread about that or was it a personal discussion?
I'll have to look it up. [I recall it was a specific discussion about the Time portfolio.] I've got a copy saved in my archives, but I doubt you'll find that useful. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 10:55:20
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
And i am still against the "Court of the Dead" idea. Bhaal and Myrkul would never play "servants" to Kelemvor.
If so, this is all the more reason to put them in the same group.
I understand that WotC wants to put the deities into the background, but much of what you mentioned would be the perfect setup in the mortal world for strife and conflict between priests of differing faiths.
Perhaps a "Court of the Dead" portrait done by followers of Myrkul seats him on the Throne, with Kelemvor cast off to one side and cowering before Bhaal's murderous gaze.
I like the idea of divine strife, so long as it plays out in the mortal world.  |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 10:48:40
I envision Myrkul as that which shows up when you're on death's door. Or when much death is about to happen, those who watch closely can see the signs (for example: the moon obscured behind clouds, if at night) that Old Lord Skull's attention has been drawn to a place and soon the Lord of Bones will collect the spirits of those who are about to die.
I imagine priest of Bhaal making a point of going after adventurers who cheat death and--most importantly--murdering adventurers who've been raised up from the dead. Thus Bhaal enforces the rule that death is final.
A separate portrait featuring Bane ought to have one of Jergal's many hands on his shoulder too, hinting that Jergal may hold influence beyond the Court of the Dead.
I'm a sucker for the deity group portraits concept in the 2E Faiths & Avatars* and I'd dearly love to see a portrait of Kelemvor on the Throne, Bhaal to one side and Myrkul on the other. Jergal stands to Kelemvor's right with one hand on Kelemvor's shoulder and leaning towards him as though to advise him. There are also hands on the shoulders of Bhaal and Myrkul, suggesting Jergal's many arms (like a Spellweaver) and that perhaps Jergal holds more influence in the Court of the Dead than Kelemvor.
*I don't like the art style itself in that book, but the concept is cool and I think you can really get DM's and player's imaginations going if you do deity portraits right. To me that means innuendo, uncertainty and something akin to hidden mysteries that can be found in or suggested by the artwork. For so long the deities have been rigidly defined...let's shake it up a bit!
That and if WotC ever does release a D&D Next Realms deity book, they can perhaps save money by commissioning group portraits instead of paying for solo art pieces, re-using old art or defaulting to holy symbol portraits for deities. Whoever did the portrait of Wee Jas on page 96 of the 3E Deities and Demigods book would be my first choice for artist. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 10:13:06
And i am still against the "Court of the Dead" idea. Bhaal and Myrkul would never play "servants" to Kelemvor. Especially not Myrkul who would rather see Kelemvor vanquished and replaced by him. Kelemvor is opposing undeath while Myrkul is not opposing it, you have two differing aspects which can not lead to a peacefull cooperation and given the history of Bhaal and Myrkul, the god of murder is clearly siding with his old ally than Kelemvor, Jergal picks who ever wins and that means a "court" will never come to pass. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 09:12:43
Emissary in what way? The bringer of death? Or some other manner? |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 07:04:12
Myself, I prefer Kelemvor. But I think there's a place for Jergal in whatever new divine structure we get (and assuming such is described in D&D Next Realms sourcebooks).
I'm still big on the idea of a Court of the Dead, with Kelemvor sitting on the Throne of Death/Judgement, with Jergal as his chief adviser or perhaps the equivalent of Court Sage, Bhaal his enforcer and Myrkul his emissary. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 06:28:28
Kelemvor seems like the perfect god of the dead to me.
Jergal is no longer evil so he would not be like old Jergal, anyways. I doubt he wants the position anymore, either. It wasn't meant to be. He's fatalistic that way (being the god of fatalism now and all....) |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 05:45:34
Oh shut it already Bahhl, you were dead for a time, how did it feel to have a god over you.
That which lives by the sword , dies by the sword. An you died by your sword. Who would want to worship a god who died already :P
Baahl The domain of the murdered :P, You can help illimater. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 04:34:41
Sage can you point to a thread about that or was it a personal discussion? |
| Bhaal |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 04:27:27
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I like Kelemvor as the god of death. I think we need a neutral god to fill such a role
*AHEM*
Excuse me, but I am the God of Death, the Lord of Murder.
Kelemvor is the God of the Dead. Although, really he's just a seat-warmer for my buddy Myrkul, the true God of the Dead.
Mortals always mix those up. Of course, I don't blame them really, the poor things are probably terrorized half the time.
"Waah! I don't wanna get stuck in the Wall and die painfully and slowly over decades!" Heh. Should've thought of that before you died, bub. It's seeing that kind of simultaneous mortal stupidity and arrogance that is probably the most hilarious part of my job. Oh, it's good to be back! 
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 04:23:39
I'm happy with what I did with Jergal in my Realms.
I gave Jergal a more active place [rather than the "so-far-off-in-the-faded-background-as-to-almost-be-forgotten" that he occupies in the canon Realms] in my pantheon, because he's still such a cool god!
Basically, I made him the god of time, for a time. As I've speculated in the past [in terms of the official Realms], perhaps the Time porfolio fell into the hands of Jergal in the pre-Spellplague Realms. But after his demotion to "Exarch" status in the 4e Realms, the Time portfolio once again came up for grabs.
At which point, I'm still content to believe much of what Eric Boyd and I discussed about the Time portfolio back in '06. That the Time portfolio remained free largely because, at the time [pun intended, I suppose], it wasn't feasible to be definitive about it, as some future project [nothing proposed at that point in '06] might have called for it. [Or, in other words, maybe Eric wanted to leave room for further development.]
Nowadays, he's simply the "ambassador" for whatever plots the spellweavers are secretly hatching in the Realms. He now relies solely on his status as an ascended spellweaver, as conceived by Eric Boyd. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 04:03:57
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They even just released (I think) rules for god-like characters in their world - its their new 'Mythic Rules'.
Guess thats what happens when all you have to do is touch a piece of rock and hope for the best.....
So all you have to do is touch a rock to become a god?
Like kissing the Blarney stone, something along those lines?
Must be some rock.
I've kissed the Blarney Stone. That thing is not easy to get to! You literally have to lay on your back and slide head-first into a hole, with nothing between you and the ground below but air!
But again, we don't know the details of the Test of the Starstone, only that many, many people have taken it, and only three have succeeded. And that's despite it being there for thousands of years. If only three people have succeeded in something like 4000 years of trying, then it's not that easy. |
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