| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jerrod |
Posted - 25 Aug 2013 : 04:11:28
Is it canon that mystra was the most powerful god of the realms? I remember reading somewhere that toril was mystra's domain.that half her power was divided between her chosen and the other half was in her which was still enough to make her a greater goddess. I read that AO made her divide her power so she wouldn't be able to rule toril Unopposed....for the record Lolth's web encompasses ALL and the world is her prey... |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gyor |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 01:50:21
Thier was actually hints from previous editions that the Elemental Lords weren't normal Gods, so when 4e first came out I knew before the FRCG came out that the Elemental Lords would be Primordials.
This explained the weird fact that the Elemental Lords were not effected by the ToTs, unlike every other God, it explains why they could be Greater Powers without huge amounts of followers (Kossuth does have massive amounts of Followers, but he doesn't need them which makes his actions curious and intiguing), and so on. It also explains why thier nature seems so much more alien compared to other Gods.
Now we know why they seem to follow thier own rules, thier Primordials not Estelars.
My prediction. Deity hood will be seperated from type, so Gods will end up catogorized by memebership on the tablets the powers that grants. So the Gods will end up as a group of Primordials, Estelar, Archfey, Primal Spirits, Manifestations and a few Fiends plus who knows what else, just who ever AO has granted godhood to via the tablets of faith. These beings will all be granted divinity.
And certain beings might belong to multiple races of God. So Lurue would be a God, but not an Estelar, she's be a an archfey, same with Deep Sashless, where Nobion would be a God again, but still be a Primal Spirit. Torm would be an Estelar, Kossuth a Primordial, Gargauth a devil, as would Asmodeaus, Sune a Estelar, but all would count as Gods against as well.
That is my prediction. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 01:48:43
Thier was actually hints from previous editions that the Elemental Lords weren't normal Gods, so when 4e first came out I knew before the FRCG came out that the Elemental Lords would be Primordials.
This explained the weird fact that the Elemental Lords were not effected by the ToTs, unlike every other God, it explains why they could be Greater Powers without huge amounts of followers (Kossuth does have massive amounts of Followers, but he doesn't need them which makes his actions curious and intiguing), and so on. It also explains why thier nature seems so much more alien compared to other Gods.
Now we know why they seem to follow thier own rules, thier Primordials not Estelars.
My prediction. Deity hood will be seperated from type, so Gods will end up catogorized by memebership on the tablets the powers that grants. So the Gods will end up as a group of Primordials, Estelar, Archfey, Primal Spirits, Manifestations and a few Fiends plus who knows what else, just who ever AO has granted godhood to via the tablets of faith. These beings will all be granted divinity.
And certain beings might belong to multiple races of God. So Lurue would be a God, but not an Estelar, she's be a an archfey, same with Deep Sashless, where Nobion would be a God again, but still be a Primal Spirit. Torm would be an Estelar, Kossuth a Primordial, Gargauth a devil, as would Asmodeaus, Sune a Estelar, but all would count as Gods against as well.
That is my prediction. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 01:42:00
Thier was actually hints from previous editions that the Elemental Lords weren't normal Gods, so when 4e first came out I knew before the FRCG came out that the Elemental Lords would be Primordials.
This explained the weird fact that the Elemental Lords were not effected by the ToTs, unlike every other God, it explains why they could be Greater Powers without huge amounts of followers (Kossuth does have massive amounts of Followers, but he doesn't need them which makes his actions curious and intiguing), and so on. It also explains why thier nature seems so much more alien compared to other Gods.
Now we know why they seem to follow thier own rules, thier Primordials not Estelars.
My prediction. Deity hood will be seperated from type, so Gods will end up catogorized by memebership on the tablets the powers that grants. So the Gods will end up as a group of Primordials, Estelar, Archfey, Primal Spirits, Manifestations and a few Fiends plus who knows what else, just who ever AO has granted godhood to via the tablets of faith. These beings will all be granted divinity.
And certain beings might belong to multiple races of God. So Lurue would be a God, but not an Estelar, she's be a an archfey, same with Deep Sashless, where Nobion would be a God again, but still be a Primal Spirit. Torm would be an Estelar, Kossuth a Primordial, Gargauth a devil, as would Asmodeaus, Sune a Estelar, but all would count as Gods against as well.
That is my prediction. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 09:22:33
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I agree wholeheartedly with Wooly‘s rejection of 4E-styled Primordials as a category. To portray them as, say, another pantheon or as some sort of arch-celestial or arch-fiends or even strange “xeno-Powers“ from a Far Realm sorta place would seem acceptable. I‘m not into 4E bashing, but this particular set of Realms retcons really makes me shake my head.
my problem with that hypothesis is that it assumes that all powers that can hope to challenge the gods are formative only in the outer planes or the far realm. Why can't the inner/elemental planes form beings that can challenge the gods without having some sort of internal moral compass driven by the plane they're from. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 07:16:57
I agree wholeheartedly with Wooly‘s rejection of 4E-styled Primordials as a category. To portray them as, say, another pantheon or as some sort of arch-celestial or arch-fiends or even strange “xeno-Powers“ from a Far Realm sorta place would seem acceptable. I‘m not into 4E bashing, but this particular set of Realms retcons really makes me shake my head. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 04:19:19
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Agreed there. The one problem I see is where there are certain gods of physical heavenly bodies (moon, sun, etc..). The moon they could maybe work out something with the ice moon Zotha thing, or the tears of Selune being formed whenever she gave a portion of herself to other moon gods... They could also stress more on Selune's power as the goddess of all spacial anomalies (meteors, stars, etc...).
The sun becomes harder, but it could be separated into the lord of Dawn, lord of the High Sun, lord of Dusk, lord or light, and maybe some other things. However, things like lord of Tyranny... there can be multiples.
Possibly, and I wouldn't mind that too much. But personally, I always liked the idea of multiple deities representing the same thing, particularly if they were from different cultures/pantheons. Moving to a single "world meta-pantheon", and having similar gods just be variant avatars of a meta-pantheon deity was perhaps good for simplification. But I think it also mucked about with "truth of the divine" too much, and cemented too much of what should be faith as just concrete fact.
I'd have much preferred uncertainty, mystery and questions of faith when it came to things like "there's a human god of X and a dwarf (or elf) god of X" in the Realms. Even when two cultures bumped into each other and blended, it didn't need to be the case that those two cultures' deities would have to fight for dominance.
Now, it seems that every War deity on the planet is somehow an avatar of Tempus. And every deity of Love is somehow an avatar of Sune. I really don't like that. At all. On shows like Xena and Hercules, I thought it was immense fun to have two war deities battle it out briefly, neither one winning necessarily.
That's exactly what I was getting at. EXCEPT in the case of heavenly bodies, there's no reason you can't have multiple deities of storms & lightning, war, disease, fire, love, poetry, art, music, knowledge, magic, darkness, theft, trickery, intrigue and you could possibly have doubles of such even in the same pantheon..... its only when its the god of THE sun or THE moon that you run into problems. If you instead work around hyperbola for those heavenly bodies (such as the gods of dawn, the sun's fire, light, etc....) then you have a little more working room, because you could have multiple gods of light and all might be considered "an aspect of the sun". |
| The Sage |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 04:17:01
I suppose more focus could have be placed on the title of "Elemental Lords," for most of the more "elemental" Primordials... instead of just labelling them all Primordials as such. [Can't recall whether the 4e FRCG directly makes this distinction, though I'm thinking it did.]
The term "Elemental Lords" has play in both core- and Realms- based lore, so it might have been more positively received had it more emphasis over the usage of the term "Primordials." |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 04:00:37
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't like the idea of primordials, and prefer that everything previously listed as a deity remains a deity...
The concept of the primordials really didn't bother me all that much. The promotion, demotion, and general flux of divine power in most fantasy settings always tends to open up new and intriguing possibilities for how the concentration of that power could expressed through a particular medium. The primordials are just another example of that general fantastical principle.
As I see it, no deity's divine power is truly absolute. Especially in the Realms. If the Time of Troubles taught us nothing else, it's that the gods can easily have their divine power stripped from them if Ao so desires. And the "rotating door" policy that seems so integral to the Realms pantheon apparently accommodates the notion of differing deities and near-powers with all kinds of different ways in which they siphon their power from worshippers. Primordials are just the latest example of this decades-long aspect of the setting as a whole.
What I don't like about it is the fact that for years, all the powers of the Realms were deities. And then, suddenly, we've got a new class of power that is kinda sorta the same but different. And some of those that we were told were deities were now something else.
I don't mind seeing something like Mask rising and falling in power, or new deities ascending, or old ones falling... I object to the sudden inclusion of something that's the same thing, only different, and to long-standing deities suddenly being this other thing.
I'd've had less issue with the primordials if they'd been called something else (I hate that name for a class of entity), and if they had been spun differently. If they had been more like the Valheru in the Riftwar Saga, for example: a group of very powerful individuals who, when united behind a common cause, were numerous enough and strong enough to take on the gods. Individually, they were somewhere between the most powerful mortals and demigods, but united, they were a nigh-unstoppable force.
That's a backstory I would have loved to have seen with a Realms spin. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 02:39:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't like the idea of primordials, and prefer that everything previously listed as a deity remains a deity...
The concept of the primordials really didn't bother me all that much. The promotion, demotion, and general flux of divine power in most fantasy settings always tends to open up new and intriguing possibilities for how the concentration of that power could expressed through a particular medium. The primordials are just another example of that general fantastical principle.
As I see it, no deity's divine power is truly absolute. Especially in the Realms. If the Time of Troubles taught us nothing else, it's that the gods can easily have their divine power stripped from them if Ao so desires. And the "rotating door" policy that seems so integral to the Realms pantheon apparently accommodates the notion of differing deities and near-powers with all kinds of different ways in which they siphon their power from worshippers. Primordials are just the latest example of this decades-long aspect of the setting as a whole. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 00:39:10
Spelljammer lore, again 2E and now outdated (though not really contradicted, albeit obsolete in 4E), provided an easy answer for the issue of region-variable power. A deity‘s power is directly related the the local faith. All it takes is a single believer, although realistically it requires populations of believers along with all their attendant temples and priests and history. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 00:26:06
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Tyr‘s status in the history of out own world varied considerably
However for D&D it only matters which status they picked for him
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Why isn‘t it possible for similar logic to apply to multi-world gods of the Realms?
Mutlispheric powers affected different spheres at different power levels in 2e.
However if you followed the divine connection back to it's source you would, from all spheres, come to the same divine realm with the same deity sitting there (although some deities divided their time between different divine realms).
Why a deity could affect different spheres on a power level above/below their true divine status was never fully revealed.
Maybe the divine connection to a particular sphere was bad, thus the deity needed to send twice as much power through from her side than what arrived at the recipient side. Thus a lesser power seemed like a demipower when viewed from that sphere, since half the power she send was lost into the ether
Or maybe the local overpower granted the lesser deity a higher status in his sphere and doubled the amount of power she send toward it. Thus the lesser deity looked like in intermediate deity due to this local power boost.
However when you really reached the deity in her realm on the planes, you would find her at her true power level, which might not match what you expect solely judging her from your own sphere's point of view |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 23:38:24
Tyr‘s status in the history of out own world varied considerably across different times and regions and peoples ... sometimes he was a “lesser“ god, sometimes greater, sometimes even considered vastly superior to the nominal leader of his pantheon, Odin. Why isn‘t it possible for similar logic to apply to multi-world gods of the Realms? |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 23:31:12
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
This isn‘t a lot different from how, say, Tyr or Mielikki or Loviatar in the Realms aren‘t quite the same entities (at least in terms of power and game stats) as their counterpart aspects in other pantheons, planes, and worlds.
Actually in that cases these are the exact same entities. On Hallowed Grounds explained why they branched out into the Realms.
But the Tyr of the Realms is the same, one and only, Tyr worshipped on other worlds. In his divine realm he just as a "screen" monitoring the realms along the other "screens" watching his other worlds.
At least that was 2e canon until 3e and especially 4e shattered that |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 23:23:59
Ah, I was trying to provide a helpful answer about Kossuth, not draw out a disagreement.
Note that my source (quoted verbatim by Therise) is early 2E Realms. In fact, the very first 2E Realms canon published after the 1E-to-2E Avatar novels. Other sources appeared much, much later in 2E lore, as the Realms grew in depth. I would assume that more recent lore would apply in more recent editions.
Also, I would assume that Realmslore should take precedence over non-Realmslore when dealing with the Realms, A guy like Kossuth might be a bigger bigshot across the cosmos, but he‘s still generally a little morsel within the Realms ... perhaps elemental magic just never really became mainstream under Myystra‘s Weave, perhaps poor Kossuth just doesn‘t have a decent population of faithful in the Realms, perhaps Faerûnian deities oppose “outside“ powers from playing in their sandbox. The Realms already has a slightly unique cosmology when one considers the Fugue Plane, so perhaps the Elemental inner planes aren‘t as attuned to the Realms as they are to other worlds where old Kossuth can really burn things up.
This isn‘t a lot different from how, say, Tyr or Mielikki or Loviatar in the Realms aren‘t quite the same entities (at least in terms of power and game stats) as their counterpart aspects in other pantheons, planes, and worlds. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 19:15:29
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Agreed there. The one problem I see is where there are certain gods of physical heavenly bodies (moon, sun, etc..). The moon they could maybe work out something with the ice moon Zotha thing, or the tears of Selune being formed whenever she gave a portion of herself to other moon gods... They could also stress more on Selune's power as the goddess of all spacial anomalies (meteors, stars, etc...).
The sun becomes harder, but it could be separated into the lord of Dawn, lord of the High Sun, lord of Dusk, lord or light, and maybe some other things. However, things like lord of Tyranny... there can be multiples.
Possibly, and I wouldn't mind that too much. But personally, I always liked the idea of multiple deities representing the same thing, particularly if they were from different cultures/pantheons. Moving to a single "world meta-pantheon", and having similar gods just be variant avatars of a meta-pantheon deity was perhaps good for simplification. But I think it also mucked about with "truth of the divine" too much, and cemented too much of what should be faith as just concrete fact.
I'd have much preferred uncertainty, mystery and questions of faith when it came to things like "there's a human god of X and a dwarf (or elf) god of X" in the Realms. Even when two cultures bumped into each other and blended, it didn't need to be the case that those two cultures' deities would have to fight for dominance.
Now, it seems that every War deity on the planet is somehow an avatar of Tempus. And every deity of Love is somehow an avatar of Sune. I really don't like that. At all. On shows like Xena and Hercules, I thought it was immense fun to have two war deities battle it out briefly, neither one winning necessarily.
I agree. I like having the wide-range of deities. Sune and Hanali were both goddesses of love, but they were for their respective races, and their ideologies differed slightly. |
| Therise |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 18:26:33
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Agreed there. The one problem I see is where there are certain gods of physical heavenly bodies (moon, sun, etc..). The moon they could maybe work out something with the ice moon Zotha thing, or the tears of Selune being formed whenever she gave a portion of herself to other moon gods... They could also stress more on Selune's power as the goddess of all spacial anomalies (meteors, stars, etc...).
The sun becomes harder, but it could be separated into the lord of Dawn, lord of the High Sun, lord of Dusk, lord or light, and maybe some other things. However, things like lord of Tyranny... there can be multiples.
Possibly, and I wouldn't mind that too much. But personally, I always liked the idea of multiple deities representing the same thing, particularly if they were from different cultures/pantheons. Moving to a single "world meta-pantheon", and having similar gods just be variant avatars of a meta-pantheon deity was perhaps good for simplification. But I think it also mucked about with "truth of the divine" too much, and cemented too much of what should be faith as just concrete fact.
I'd have much preferred uncertainty, mystery and questions of faith when it came to things like "there's a human god of X and a dwarf (or elf) god of X" in the Realms. Even when two cultures bumped into each other and blended, it didn't need to be the case that those two cultures' deities would have to fight for dominance.
Now, it seems that every War deity on the planet is somehow an avatar of Tempus. And every deity of Love is somehow an avatar of Sune. I really don't like that. At all. On shows like Xena and Hercules, I thought it was immense fun to have two war deities battle it out briefly, neither one winning necessarily.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 18:11:12
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I really didn't mind the new Primordial distinction. What I didn't like was the whole weird "guess what, there's another PLANET tied to Toril" and there was this whole war between gods and elemental lords. Just a sloppy, quick overlay without much creativity.
Add to that, things like mashing Gruumsh together with Talos... or Hanali Celanil with Sune, and just... no. Again, sloppy and easy, with little respect for older lore. I truly hope they "re-clarify" things such that Gruumsh just pretended for a while to be Talos (because he was missing or trapped for some reason), and that Sune also "took over" for her close ally Hanali in her absence.
Agreed there. The one problem I see is where there are certain gods of physical heavenly bodies (moon, sun, etc..). The moon they could maybe work out something with the ice moon Zotha thing, or the tears of Selune being formed whenever she gave a portion of herself to other moon gods... They could also stress more on Selune's power as the goddess of all spacial anomalies (meteors, stars, etc...).
The sun becomes harder, but it could be separated into the lord of Dawn, lord of the High Sun, lord of Dusk, lord or light, and maybe some other things. However, things like lord of Tyranny... there can be multiples. |
| Therise |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 17:59:33
I really didn't mind the new Primordial distinction. What I didn't like was the whole weird "guess what, there's another PLANET tied to Toril" and there was this whole war between gods and elemental lords. Just a sloppy, quick overlay without much creativity.
Add to that, things like mashing Gruumsh together with Talos... or Hanali Celanil with Sune, and just... no. Again, sloppy and easy, with little respect for older lore. I truly hope they "re-clarify" things such that Gruumsh just pretended for a while to be Talos (because he was missing or trapped for some reason), and that Sune also "took over" for her close ally Hanali in her absence.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 17:57:15
an addendum to the above.... we've long seen these arguments of powerful fey (archfey), powerful demons (demon lords), powerful devils (such as Gargauth), powerful beings from the Far Realm, the newer idea of primordials and the powers of "darkness/shadows". I think it would be a very interesting delving for WotC to delve into these and build some "cornerstones" of the types of .... best word I can think of are "ultra powers"... that work outside of the player's controls and what their goals are as a semi-cohesive unit. They might want to sit down and make a listing of the beings of the various worlds and start classifying them and just see where it leads (i.e. don't go into it with a defined end goal). They might want to just start for instance with a popular world where people are highly interested in the deities (like Greyhawk or the realms), and where there's already people who have made lists of the "deities" of the world out there, and then start improving upon said lists. Given that they're considering bringing back all deities (possibly), this kind of work might even help them spin up some really good ideas... for instance, what if Talos / Bhaelros / and Kozah were all different beings who Talos had conquered and now all have come back. They may be spinning up their worshippers to slay the heretics of the church. This could mean that deities like Shar who grew heavily in power through conquering other deities may find themselves in a lot of trouble as their churches split into different heresies. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 17:46:15
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't like the idea of primordials, and prefer that everything previously listed as a deity remains a deity...
That said, the approach to Realms canon has always been that newer lore trumps older lore. So in 4E, Kossuth is not a deity.
I'm really hoping that when the 5E Realms comes out, they keep it simply and adhere to pre-4E lore, when it comes to the powers of the Realms.
I'm not so much upset with the shoe-horning in of the idea of primordial and archfey as compared to deities. My main thing with the 5e was what they did with it (essentially destroying the old setting). I like the fact that they went out and specified that Kossuth is not a deity and that in ways it "works" differently. It explains why Kossuth didn't force worshippers to worship it like gods were trying to do. In fact, I'd like to see some discussion on some of the various nature deities and how they differ from Archfey and/or primordials. For instance, as an example, Talos/Bhaelros/Kozah.... lord of Storms and Lightning could easily have also been a primordial... however, he also fits as a god... or an Archfey... and is there a chance that "he" was a triumvirate deity who was all of these (that is before the whole Gruumsh posing as him thing.... I don't care what newer lore says, Gruumsh was posing as him). |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 17:25:57
And let us hope Asmodeus loses his divine powers, that fiend does not belong as a deity in the realms! |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 16:28:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't like the idea of primordials, and prefer that everything previously listed as a deity remains a deity...
That said, the approach to Realms canon has always been that newer lore trumps older lore. So in 4E, Kossuth is not a deity.
I'm really hoping that when the 5E Realms comes out, they keep it simply and adhere to pre-4E lore, when it comes to the powers of the Realms.
The primordials do reek of the Titans from Ancient Greek mythology. And I tend to prefer active evils like Manshoon, who has plots spinning around like curveballs. Creatures that spend all their time sleeping can only scare me so much. But like you said, 5e lore will trump all else. So the primordials probably all get sent packing to Abeir. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 05:42:08
I don't like the idea of primordials, and prefer that everything previously listed as a deity remains a deity...
That said, the approach to Realms canon has always been that newer lore trumps older lore. So in 4E, Kossuth is not a deity.
I'm really hoping that when the 5E Realms comes out, they keep it simply and adhere to pre-4E lore, when it comes to the powers of the Realms. |
| Therise |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 01:13:04
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
But Ayrik is also correct when saying that Forgotten Realms Adventures clearly states that they are lesser powers.
I don't have it in front of me, but I don't think that's what was stated there.
Directly from Forgotten Realms Adventures, page 36:
quote:
Elemental Cults
Grumbar, Boss of Earth
Kossuth, Tyrant Among Fire
Akadi, Queen of Air
Istishia, Water Lord
All are lesser powers of the various elemental
planes.
Cults tend to vary greatly from one
area to another, as different individuals
seek to tie into the same natural or supernatural
power. They also tend to be much
weaker than the mainline clerics.
When I say that something is printed clearly, I never lie about something I reference as a source.
quote:
Actually under 2e's mutliverse approach they were all canon to each other. That's why effects in one setting spilled over if that area was touched by annother setting. E.g. the slaying of Orcus by Kiaranshalee or the fiends temporarily losing their ability to teleport, etc.
While it is fully Realms 2E compatible, and many people treat it as canon, Planescape is an optional setting. It has also not been updated since, and some things in 4E tend to contradict compatibility
|
| Mirtek |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 00:29:45
quote:
Originally posted by TheriseBut Ayrik is also correct when saying that Forgotten Realms Adventures clearly states that they are lesser powers.
I don't have it in front of me, but I don't think that's what was stated there. The booklet only really gave good information on a few powers and lumped a lot of "obscure" powers together under the "not really known" category and the lot of them were later detailed in Faiths&Avatars and Powers&Pantheons. The category into which they put Kossuth there included powers of all ranks from demi to greater, that they just didn't really detail yet in this book
Edit: Nevermind, I think I confused it with the booklets from the 2e FRCS boxed set
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Also, while Planescape and On Hallowed Ground can be viewed as canon lore for the Realms, they are technically "core" add-ons and this isn't something people must take to be canon, necessarily.
Actually under 2e's mutliverse approach they were all canon to each other. That's why effects in one setting spilled over if that area was touched by annother setting. E.g. the slaying of Orcus by Kiaranshalee or the fiends temporarily losing their ability to teleport, etc. |
| Therise |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 00:12:14
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Kossuth is listed as one of the four Elemental Lords in 2E FRA - granting the priests od his cult up to 5th level spells and a couple of not-very-spectacular special power over elemental fire. In 2E terms, I would rank Kossuth as a demipower, and perhaps (like various Beast Lord demipowers such as Lurue) further limit Kossuth to only being able to effectively exert such power in a limited region. Kossuth was popular with (non-Water) Elemental Mages and with Red Wizards, but I‘d think he‘d otherwise have very few, if any, human disciples.
Kossuth (& "pals") were flat out stated to be full fledged greater powers in Faiths&Avatars and in Planescape sources like On Hallowed Grounds and The Inner Planes
Rulebooks and supplements can have errors, of course, and are merely an estimation or reflection of "power" that a given being has.
You're correct that Faiths and Avatars lists Kossuth as a greater power. But Ayrik is also correct when saying that Forgotten Realms Adventures clearly states that they are lesser powers.
So which is "correct"? At the time, there wasn't much of a distinction between "god" and "elemental lord" (or primordial).
Also, while Planescape and On Hallowed Ground can be viewed as canon lore for the Realms, they are technically "core" add-ons and this isn't something people must take to be canon, necessarily. In 3E, Kossuth was again listed as a Greater Deity - actually using the word deity.
Given that 4E lore -is- definitely considered canon and isn't going away, it's probably best to think about the Primordials (aka Elemental Lords) as -nearly- equivalent in "power" to gods... but that they're actually entirely separate from, and distinct from gods.
And interestingly, in 4E, none of the Elemental Lords that remained on Faerun are given a power level at all relative to the gods.
So, boiling it all down: Kossuth is not actually a deity or god, but an Elemental Lord that is -almost- equivalent to a greater deity. Since he was a "lesser power" in 2E, it's possibly the case that his power waxes and wanes over time (just as fire tends to grow or shrink depending on fuel).
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| Mirtek |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 23:39:20
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Kossuth is listed as one of the four Elemental Lords in 2E FRA - granting the priests od his cult up to 5th level spells and a couple of not-very-spectacular special power over elemental fire. In 2E terms, I would rank Kossuth as a demipower, and perhaps (like various Beast Lord demipowers such as Lurue) further limit Kossuth to only being able to effectively exert such power in a limited region. Kossuth was popular with (non-Water) Elemental Mages and with Red Wizards, but I‘d think he‘d otherwise have very few, if any, human disciples.
Kossuth (& "pals") were flat out stated to be full fledged greater powers in Faiths&Avatars and in Planescape sources like On Hallowed Grounds and The Inner Planes |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 23:34:08
Kossuth is listed as one of the four Elemental Lords in 2E FRA - granting the priests od his cult up to 5th level spells and a couple of not-very-spectacular special power over elemental fire. In 2E terms, I would rank Kossuth as a demipower, and perhaps (like various Beast Lord demipowers such as Lurue) further limit Kossuth to only being able to effectively exert such power in a limited region. Kossuth was popular with (non-Water) Elemental Mages and with Red Wizards, but I‘d think he‘d otherwise have very few, if any, human disciples. |
| Bhaal |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 20:51:29
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Is Kossuth even a Deity? I was under the impression he was an elemental Primordial of godlike power.
Not an easy question to answer. Mortals can worship many beings as deities, and "game rules" at various points might not make adequate or complete distinctions on what truly "counts" as a deity. And it may not really be a noticeable difference for mortals, at least on a functional level.
From the very beginning, Kossuth was described as an "Elemental Lord" and that's what he is. He does not belong to the pantheon of Gods, which We call the Estelar. He and other elemental lords do not belong to the class of demons or devils, either, though both of those types of beings can often grant their worshipers divine power for spells.
Consider your mortal world of Earth, or Terra-Sol. There, you have Titans and Gods in your Greek myths, and also Jotnar (Giants, of a sort) and Aesir-Vanir (allied gods) in Norse myths, and it is much the same for Primordials and Estelar in the Realms. The Elemental Lords can be worshiped as gods, but are not of the Estelar.
quote:
Cyric sure has fallen since his ascension.
And he has further to fall, even still. 
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| Mirtek |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 20:02:24
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Is Kossuth even a Deity? I was under the impression he was an elemental Primordial of godlike power.
He was a near-power in pre-3e sources, became a greater deity in 3e, and then eventually settled into being a Primordial in 4e.
Actually he was clearly listed as greater deity in 2e already |
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