| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Jul 2013 : 08:19:18
We know that when Tchazzar returns at the very end of 1373 DR, he arrives in the middle of a naval battle between Cimbar and Soorenar.
We know that in 1370 DR or so, Aeron Morieth deposed the Sceptanar of Cimbar and in 1372 DR, his appointee, Melisanda of Arrabar, appeared to be still in power over Cimbar.
We know that King Hippartes led a huge crusade in the name of Assuran against Unther in 1358 DR, where he incorporated mercenaries and levies, demanded at spearpoint, from most other cities into his forces. We know that he was destroyed or at least Assuran was defeated in that war.
We also know that in 1367-1370 DR, at least, a King Gormantor ruled Akanax.
In 1367-1370 DR, too, Akanax and Cimbar's allegiance which had humbled Soorenar was more or less defunct and Soorenar was resurgent under the Corynians (and two other leading families whose names I don't know). Luthcheq, meanwhile, was ruined enough to be refered to as the 'ruins of Luthcheq' at that time.
And we know that in 1370 DR or so, there was a huge war between shaow-mage-dominated Cimbar and its ally Soorenar against King Gormantor-led Akanax, with Mordulkin and Airspur coming to the aid of Akanax.
In 1372 DR, however, Luthcheq is a powerful metropolis, still led by the Karanaoks.
And Akanax is once again ruled by King Hippartes. And despite having conclusively lost the war against Soorenar and Cimbar, they have an army of fifty thousand soldiers once again, which I note is near the peak of their power.
Akanax has been fighting Luthcheq 'for several years' in 1372 DR, which likely means that the 'ruins' still had armies in the field under the Karanaoks in 1370 DR. And Akanax is now again allied with Cimbar, its foe of two years ago, against Soorenar.
I know the reason for seeming contradictions is that authors rarely bother to read prior lore. But that's not good enough for us. We have to find a way to reconcile the discrepancies...
So, what is the situation in each of Chessenta's cities in the spring of 1373 DR, when my campaign is set?
Who rules each city and how long has s/he been in power? How secure is their rule?
What are the primary threats to that city?
How do we reconcile the two or three different Luthcheqs and Akanaxes of the novels The Shadow Stone and Maiden of Pain with the short blurbs given in Old Empires and Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting?
What caused Soorenar and Cimbar to fall out* between 1370 DR and 1372 DR?
Why is Luthcheq warring against warrior-dominated Akanax instead of wizard-ruled Mordulkin or Cimbar? Or Soorenar which aided the wizard-king of Cimbar in trying to take over all of Chessenta just three years ago?
And, most importantly for my campaign, what are the attitudes of each city toward the following foreign policy issues?
a) The threat from the Great Bone Wyrm of Threskel and his army of dragons, dracoliches, humanoids and Dragon Cultists. Note that Mordulkin and Mourktar already pay him tribute and effectively exist as vassal cities or protectorates, which pretty much makes him the de facto ruler of Threskel.
b) The attempts of the Northern Wizards and various other factions in Messemprar to either create an independent city-state there or even retain control of some sort of Free Unther.
c) The threat represented by an expansionistic Mulhorandi Empire if they finish the conquest of Unther.
d) The opportunities and dangers caused by Thay finally starting to put more focus on trade, which they were already a regional powerhouse at, but now look fair to become even more than that.
*Here I'm guessing that the new regime in Cimbar was responsible. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Aug 2020 : 17:30:54
How many people should sit on the council that rules Airspur (at least in 1357-1373 DR)?
Is it like 6-8 people or more like 12-20?
If it was much more numerous, it would not be a Council as much as a Senate, I think. Of course, neighbouring Reth is by Seven Senators (and a Mayor), so I think I'll avoid that word here, preferring to call them 'Councilors'.
It's called a 'military council' and is led by the half-orc Khrulis, but given that it seems stable through 1e to 3e, I'd rate the odds pretty good that after the military desposed the tyranical priests of Bhaelros, they might have offered a few of the most respected nobles and leading citizens a part in government. Not enough votes to prevent Khrulis from exercising effective control, but enough so that the council is perceived as somewhat legitimate.
I'm wondering how many important noble houses there are in Airspur. It's a city of 22,000+, but it's likely that rich landowners who own vast estates on the hinterlands (where more than 200,000 farmers, shepherds and ranchers are needed just to feed the city, by typical Faerunian demographics) also maintain residences in the city and are accounted among the leading citizens. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Aug 2020 : 19:59:16
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I find it really hard to believe that any person can confuse a Crinti (a word that is basically synonymous with "slaver") with a goddess of freedom , unless they were completely ignorant about religion and the gods.
We can talk about your ideas in the other topic, to no derail this one.
Ah, by that, I mean Crintri blooded (i.e. wood elf, dark elf, human). I don't subscribe to the idea that just because someone comes from a certain culture and background that they have to stay that way. I'll bring this into that thread though. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 18 Aug 2020 : 18:34:34
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
By the way, my version of "Returned Chessenta" does a lot of THAT, for instance, from the SCAG we have somehow or other that Tchazzar still survives and he's in his capital city of Erebos. To note Erebos is very close to where Cimbar was (the FORMER capital that Tchazzar ruled from). So, what do I stick in "Returned Cimbar".... well dragonborn of course, and ones that were previously ruled over by a dragon overlord. The dragonborn of Tymanchebar helped them free themselves, and they fled to a city that the Chessentans fled FROM while in Abeir because of Shyr. The city also drew in some refugee genasi.
I hadn't developed much more than that, but it MIGHT be interesting if this city survived because someone accepted the avatar of some god which had "disappeared" following the spellplague (if only for a short time). I wouldn't want it to be a dragonborn. The genasi could very well accept a master since they're somewhat used to primordials. The question is which god. My initial thought is actually Talos, but he's evil. Another idea is Ramman again, but then that might feel a little overdone. Maybe Lathander? He was a popular god of Chessenta.... and likely there would be a temple of his in Cimbar.
Is there anything relevant to Chessenta in 1373 DR, before the return of Tchazzar? |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 18 Aug 2020 : 18:16:30
I find it really hard to believe that any person can confuse a Crinti (a word that is basically synonymous with "slaver") with a goddess of freedom , unless they were completely ignorant about religion and the gods.
We can talk about your ideas in the other topic, to no derail this one. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Aug 2020 : 16:39:16
By the way, my version of "Returned Chessenta" does a lot of THAT, for instance, from the SCAG we have somehow or other that Tchazzar still survives and he's in his capital city of Erebos. To note Erebos is very close to where Cimbar was (the FORMER capital that Tchazzar ruled from). So, what do I stick in "Returned Cimbar".... well dragonborn of course, and ones that were previously ruled over by a dragon overlord. The dragonborn of Tymanchebar helped them free themselves, and they fled to a city that the Chessentans fled FROM while in Abeir because of Shyr. The city also drew in some refugee genasi.
I hadn't developed much more than that, but it MIGHT be interesting if this city survived because someone accepted the avatar of some god which had "disappeared" following the spellplague (if only for a short time). I wouldn't want it to be a dragonborn. The genasi could very well accept a master since they're somewhat used to primordials. The question is which god. My initial thought is actually Talos, but he's evil. Another idea is Ramman again, but then that might feel a little overdone. Maybe Lathander? He was a popular god of Chessenta.... and likely there would be a temple of his in Cimbar. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Aug 2020 : 16:10:15
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I was checking the Backdrop: Chessenta in Dungeon 178. While isn't not fully elaborated, it seems slavery in Chessenta is limited now (as in, 1480 DR) to elves. That and their bigotry against spellcasters (something all Chessentans inherited from the... Luthcheqians?) is what makes Chessenta's progressiveness be seen as double standards. So, I have to "unlike" the Karanoks. Racists bastards...
Yeah, the Luthcheq viewpoints is definitely something removed from anything I'd do for Chessenta (except for IN Luthcheq mind you). That being said, I know they don't like the elves from the Methwood and Chondalwood, and that's just primarily a territory thing (i.e. the elves kill them for entering their wood).
Oddly, my variant on a returned Akanax turns this on its head in a lot of ways (the idea being that a Crintri Princess from Dambrath "housed" the war goddess Inanna as a lesser avatar <or what they believed was Inanna> and a Chessentan scion of Akanax "housed" the war/thunder god Ramman <or what they believed was Ramman> as a lesser avatar while on Abeir. The two mortals housing avatars stood up against Shyr when their forces were sent into the Shaar, working together. The two mortals fell in love, and even after the avatars left them they were still in love. Some dark elves and wood elves of the Chondalwood falsely saw this goddess as a version of Eilistraee reborn. The Crintri princess also commanded a retinue of barbarians from Dambrath, while the Scion of Akanax drew followers from Chessenta. In addition, some wemics, hybsil, and centaurs were drawn to these two former avatars leadership. They went to the former city of Akanax while in Abeir and reseized the city (which admittedly Shyr had not placed significant forces there after the current residents fled). They've fortified the city, and with the return of the city after the second sundering, its a very cosmopolitan city in Chessenta with a strong belief in the way of the warrior. There is a heresy amongst the Metahel that the two gods that filled these two mortals were not actually Inanna and Ramman, but actually Metahel gods known as Sifya the War Mother and Thoros the thunder god, a pair of deities known to be in love within their own pantheon.
The return of this new Akanax is strangely at odds with a nearby city of "new" Chessenta which grew from the remnants of former Akanax which survived on Toril. The city of Pandrick is led by King Zeareus, who as a solid follower of Assuran of the Three Thunders, has a hatred for Ramman, and a particular hatred for elves. Unfortunately for Pandrick, the returned Akanax has slightly more population, and a zealotry which fires them as well. At some point, these two city states will come to odds, as many Chessentan cities do, and one wonders what will be the end result. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 18 Aug 2020 : 04:50:53
I was checking the Backdrop: Chessenta in Dungeon 178. While isn't not fully elaborated, it seems slavery in Chessenta is limited now (as in, 1480 DR) to elves. That and their bigotry against spellcasters (something all Chessentans inherited from the... Luthcheqians?) is what makes Chessenta's progressiveness be seen as double standards. So, I have to "unlike" the Karanoks. Racists bastards... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Aug 2020 : 01:45:41
from old empires
Slavery in Chessenta is less widespread than in Mulhorand or Unther; farm workers are typically serfs, not slaves, though the differences are minimal. Slaves are often criminals who are forced into service in dangerous places, such as the mines, or serfs purchased from slave traders (some are Thayvian in origin).
Slavery is considered part of the natural order; philosophers claim that some men are naturally servile, and many of these servile men are slaves. Work conditions among slaves vary greatly. Slaves in the mines work in a wretched, unsafe environment, but most slaves live hard but not unpleasant lives. It is considered a virtue to reward slaves for hard work or jobs well done; masters can give slaves their freedom at any time. Slaves are not branded as in Unther, but they are forced to wear a thread around their wrists to identify them as slaves. The threads are easily broken, but escapes are for the most part a very rare occurrence. Slaves may shave or cut their hair, but most masters require them to wear a beard, at least until they are sure the slave will not escape.
Most slaves are kept illiterate, except in the city of Cimbar, where it is compulsory that all citizens and slaves be able to read and write.
The big thing I take from that is that the slaves are primarily criminals. Granted, some are from slave traders, but... as a person who believes that prison work crews in real life isn't a bad thing (if the prisoners are actually in for something bad... drug dealing, muggers, robbers, murderers, rapists, or worse), I don't see this as all that horrible. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 17 Aug 2020 : 18:30:08
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Was Chessenta a slaver nation as well? I was under the impression that Chessenta was anti-slavery... or perhaps it is, but only after the Spellplague?
You can say what you want of the Karanoks, but if they abolished slavery, I now like them.
Chessenta imported slaves in all prior editions, yes.
Chessentan slavery was, apparently, far more like real-world Graeco-Roman slavery, especially as it relates to household slaves, than what some people may think when they hear 'slavery'. For excample, in Thay, it was illegal to free a slave, but in Chessenta, it seems to have been commonplace. And slavery was evidently declining in importance there, with the agricultural role being taken by serfs. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 17 Aug 2020 : 18:28:48
Was Chessenta a slaver nation as well? I was under the impression that Chessenta was anti-slavery... or perhaps it is, but only after the Spellplague?
You can say what you want of the Karanoks, but if they abolished slavery, I now like them. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 17 Aug 2020 : 11:37:28
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
I couldn't pin down a date when I worked up Airspur and the Flaming Spike for the wiki recently. But I had a couple of theories.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Airspur_(Chessenta)
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Flaming_Spike
The Flaming Spike had some conflicts in Chondath (an uprising/attack against Reth and involvement in Yrkhetep's wars), but these seem to be in the 1350s, so may be too recent to be related.
The civil war (or rather the arrival of the refugees) has got to be at least one half-orc generation before 1357 DR to give rise to such a large population of half-orcs (30%). So, say about 16 to 20 years or more, before 1340 DR. Unless the refugees were mainly half-orcs (slaves like Kreodo), in which case it could be more recent. But why so many so soon? Picture the scene: the Bhaelrosians sacrificed a maiden every month, leaving a lot of lonely human men, while an orc civil war kills a lot of orc men, leaving a lot of widowed and unattached orc women... ;)
Some Bhaelrosian priests still live, Khrulis and his military council apparently directly succeeded the priests, and various groups are still hotly bigoted against the orcs, so it feels like the take-over was recent, within a few decades. I like the idea of the orc refugees surging into town, deposing the Bhaelrosian priests, and taking over as heroes, so I want to say the civil war, the refguee arrival, and the downfall of the priests happened close together, so I'd put it late 1330s DR, but that's just a best estimate based on preference.
The reasons why I think it needs to be numerous orcish generations in the past are:
a) Chessenta makes war on the orcs of the Flaming Spike and is a society that imports slaves. The plausible first reaction to orc refugees fleeing from the mountains is enslaving them. Which I believe happened, but Chessentan slavery is less likely to be for life than Thayvian, and there is a strong tradition of freeing slaves who give good service, not to mention that slaves may earn money on the side to purchase their freedom. The fact that orcs and half-orcs make good gladiators and good soldiers also makes them more likely to be freed. So, it seems plausible that while all the orcs just after the civil war were enslaved, the modern half-orc population consists of the descendants of freed slaves, who began to make their way in society.
b) A full 30% of the population of Airspur are half-orc. 4% of the population of Chessenta as a whole is half-orc, probably mostly consisting of people around the Akanapeaks, with some of the 135,000 orcs setting inside Airspur, but most of them living in the hinterlands around it or emigrating to work near other cities (but in much smaller numbers than in Airspur). Those numbers are much higher than any plausible faction of a tribe that numbers 10,000-50,000 at any given time. That's a population that has grown from the original refugees over the generations.
c) While half-orcs make up 4% of the people who live in Chessenta and are accepted as full citizens (at least in Airspur), orcs are not noted as part of the demographics. I read that to mean that if there are orcs counted as part of the citizenry of Chessenta, they number only a fraction of 1%, not enough to rate a listing among the demographics in Chessenta. To me, that says enough generations have passed since the original orc refugees arrived that the 130,000 'half-orcs' are just a group pf people with part orc and part human heritage, but it's been long enough so that few of them had parents who'd count as pure-blooded either. The half-orcs in Chessenta seem to be an ethnicity of their own, not the children of an orc and a human, at least in the 1350s DR and later.
d) Khrulis is not only on the council of Airspur, he rules it. This suggests that the half-orcs are no longer desperate refugees, but an important demographic of the city, who have, generation by generation, become valued citizens, not just foreigners or slaves.
e) Assuming, as is likely, that the men on the council must be rich, good orators and in the flower of middle-age, Khrulis had to be born over forty years before 1357 DR. It's also most likely that he was born to completely assimilated half-orc citizens and to me, most likely rich ones. So, having him be second-generation immigrant seems less likely than him having been born to people who'd had numerous generations to establish themselves in Airspur, become part of the elite, educate their children in Chessentan ways, perform military service, etc. Basically, because there would still be racial prejudice against them, in all other ways, the family of Khrulis needs to be richer, more aristocratic, with a better history of service and better education as administrators and orators, than any human family would need.
All in all, I'd be uncomfortable with any date in the 1300s, as too late for all of the necessary changes to take place before 1357 DR. I can accept anything before 1270 DR as fairly plausible, but maybe it happened even longer ago, say around not long after Chessenta fragmented into warring city states in the 12th century DR. |
| BadCatMan |
Posted - 17 Aug 2020 : 05:08:49
I couldn't pin down a date when I worked up Airspur and the Flaming Spike for the wiki recently. But I had a couple of theories.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Airspur_(Chessenta)
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Flaming_Spike
The Flaming Spike had some conflicts in Chondath (an uprising/attack against Reth and involvement in Yrkhetep's wars), but these seem to be in the 1350s, so may be too recent to be related.
The civil war (or rather the arrival of the refugees) has got to be at least one half-orc generation before 1357 DR to give rise to such a large population of half-orcs (30%). So, say about 16 to 20 years or more, before 1340 DR. Unless the refugees were mainly half-orcs (slaves like Kreodo), in which case it could be more recent. But why so many so soon? Picture the scene: the Bhaelrosians sacrificed a maiden every month, leaving a lot of lonely human men, while an orc civil war kills a lot of orc men, leaving a lot of widowed and unattached orc women... ;)
Some Bhaelrosian priests still live, Khrulis and his military council apparently directly succeeded the priests, and various groups are still hotly bigoted against the orcs, so it feels like the take-over was recent, within a few decades. I like the idea of the orc refugees surging into town, deposing the Bhaelrosian priests, and taking over as heroes, so I want to say the civil war, the refguee arrival, and the downfall of the priests happened close together, so I'd put it late 1330s DR, but that's just a best estimate based on preference. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 Aug 2020 : 19:58:14
Does anyone have an idea about the dating of the civil war within the Flaming Skull orc tribe that is responsible for the population of half-orcs within Airspur?
Even if there is no exact date, was it only a generation or two before Old Empires or centuries before? In other words, did it happen during the 11th century DR, the 12th century, the 13th century or perhaps even as recently as 1300-1330 DR? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 20:44:17
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
I can't recall the distribution of anti-magic superstition in Chessenta in The Shadow Stone, but it's not something really apparent in other sources. Sure, Luthcheq is utterly insane for it, but Cimbar and Mordulkin have major schools of magic (necromancy among them), and other places don't seem too against magic. Soorenar has fireball-hurling wizards guarding their port, and Lady Yashur is herself a mage, and one of the noble families sent Dalrioc Corynian to train as one.
I imagine the people of cosmopolitan Cimbar, Soorenar and Mordulkin accept magic as a tool which will always be used by the powerful. A dangerous tool, one they don't know much about, but still not a source of superstitious wonder. In Akanax and much of the rural areas of Chessenta, I imagine views are coloured somewhat by Chondathan attitues, i.e. magic is more likely to be seen as mysterious and frightening.
Luthcheqian attitudes presumably enjoy some popular support, or else the Karanoks wouldn't have been in power so long.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
(I note his father is mentioned, with a crimson dragon standard, implying he is either Lord Thurik or Lord Brolkchant.)
Dalrioc sounds like Brolkchant, really. On the other hand, I expect that Brolkchant did not come out of the Time of Troubles with all that much prestige, what with being conquered by Akanax (which he considered a spent force and an obedient vassal at that point) and all. So it may be more plausible that the family which came to the fore than was one of the more conservative in the years 1357-1359 DR.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Sure, it's controversial, but perhaps mostly with their allies in Luthcheq. Soorenar I see as a dark and decadent place, rather like Rome, with gladiatorial arenas (distinctly described in Realms of the Deep), a noble elite who care little for their slaves and commoners (who get feasted on by those werecrocodiles), and the former home of a powerful necromancer. Attitudes against Soorenar can't get much worse with the addition of some low-level necromancers and some skeleton warriors. :)
Attitudes can always get worse. Keep in mind that these aren't medieval-ish fiefs or towns with hinterlands that are self-sufficient in basic necessities and can afford to ignore nasty furreingers.
Airspur, Cimbar, Soorenar and even Reth cannot feed themselves without grain coming up from the Akanul. So not one of these cities can afford to ignore what their neighbours think and if they are at war with some of them, they have to take care to remain friendly with some of the others who can secure a part of the Akanul harvest and a route to ship it to them.
Foreign relations in Faerun are far more modern than they are medievalish in nature. That's because large parts of Faerun are integrated markets where the political situation cannot be sustained unless trade flows uninterrupted.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Plus its part of the Axis of Evil Northern Alliance, with Airspur (ruled by priests of Bhaelros and their human sacrifices) and Luthcheq (ruled by the Karanoks and their human sacrifices), both extremist, evil tyrannies. Soorenar's got to be doing something wrong to be in such company.
Well, it might be that it's caught between two expansionistic powers, Akanax and Cimbar, either of which is individually more powerful than Soorenar on the battlefield (land or sea, respectively). If Cimbar and Akanax are going to ally, the other Chessentan states have a choice between supine surrender or being prepared to ally with any power which can help, no matter how repugnant.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Which also makes it odd that Airspur still is. The priests of Bhaelros are gone, and the orcs and half-orcs seem quite progressive. In Old Empires, Khrulis was willing to make peace with Cimbar and even join them against his city's former allies. But the Godswar interrupted that, as it did most things.
We ought to assume that Khrulis is prepared to entertain any sensible strategic partnership, with anyone who can overlook his race. He may be a ruthless political schemer, but he seems to be a crafty one. Realistically speaking, that's probably better for his people than a naive idealist.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Looking again at Shadow Stone, the rather fluid political situation described early on supports my hypothesis that the old alliances have collapsed through the 1360s and all the cities are jostling against one another and considering new alliances, with Akanax suggested to look to Airspur. Then Oriseus's shadow war breaks out, forcing new alliances, and Airspur does indeed join Akanax, for a time. Unfortunately, it doesn't last, and the old alliances are back in place by 1372, helped along, as you say, by Hippartes (and the designers) winding back the clock. I guess also that the new orcish regime can find no friends among their old enemies, and is rather stuck with the Northern Alliance for now.
Sounds about right.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
But even then, Airspur is looking out for other enemies (i.e., not the old enemies?).
Yeah, that sentence struck me as odd, too. Wouldn't it make much more sense to be looking for allies, on the assumption that enemies tend turn up even without looking?
Airspur relies on food from the Akanul, which means that antagonising Akanax or Soorenar (transporting the grain has to be done through its docks) is potentially life-threathening. On the other hand, access to a source of grain does not good without the means to pay and Cimbar, with its massively more powerful navy, is close enough to Airspur to be able to easily play havoc with their foreign trade.
Airspur really needs friends, not enemies. It kind of goes with being a polity that cannot exist without extensive foreign trade. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Jul 2013 : 15:33:20
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
I've tended to imagine the Tower Terrible redeveloped as a school of necromancy, since Velsharoon vacated. That is, merging the ancient Greek origins of the necromancer with the formal magical education we see in Cimbar to produce a kind of professional necromancer. (This was a background for a potential neutral necromancer PC.) It would have a shrine to Velsharoon without being a major centre of his meagre worship.
Taking that idea, Soorenar could develop its own small, low-level necromancer contingent, planting dragons' teeth to summon skeleton warriors and so on. :)
Yeah, as I see it, there's probably portions of the tower that are opened, and then there's probably portions which are still sealed (I'm thinking a room still sealed, which actually has an extradimensional space that has two exits... one back into the tower and another possibly below the tower, or somewhere else). The sealed part would be to attract high level adventurers, of course. Then, they likely bought up some surrounding territory and expanded a little.
I know he wasn't canonically a binder, but my version of Velsharoon also had him studying binding and being an anima mage (my version was a triple classed wizard/dread necromancer/binder as follows 5th wiz (note: 5th lvl gained after epic) / 1st dread necro/ 10th ultimate magus / 1st binder / 10th anima mage / 3rd loremaster / 2nd archmage.... so at his lower levels he was a little behind everyone because he was studying too many alternate studies). As a result, I'd also make this temple a welcome place for binders, particularly those seeking lost lore of the Theurgist Adepts who once served Thayd. |
| BadCatMan |
Posted - 28 Jul 2013 : 01:56:53
Stupid buggy Candlekeep forums. 
I can't recall the distribution of anti-magic superstition in Chessenta in The Shadow Stone, but it's not something really apparent in other sources. Sure, Luthcheq is utterly insane for it, but Cimbar and Mordulkin have major schools of magic (necromancy among them), and other places don't seem too against magic. Soorenar has fireball-hurling wizards guarding their port, and Lady Yashur is herself a mage, and one of the noble families sent Dalrioc Corynian to train as one. (I note his father is mentioned, with a crimson dragon standard, implying he is either Lord Thurik or Lord Brolkchant.)
Sure, it's controversial, but perhaps mostly with their allies in Luthcheq. Soorenar I see as a dark and decadent place, rather like Rome, with gladiatorial arenas (distinctly described in Realms of the Deep), a noble elite who care little for their slaves and commoners (who get feasted on by those werecrocodiles), and the former home of a powerful necromancer. Attitudes against Soorenar can't get much worse with the addition of some low-level necromancers and some skeleton warriors. :) We haven't really had a good look at Soorenar in the lore. (My own campaign didn't get past the docks there, with time enough for Midsummer celebrations and Khelben Arunsun to drop dead Red Wizards on the party (long story) before we sailed on.)
Plus its part of the Axis of Evil Northern Alliance, with Airspur (ruled by priests of Bhaelros and their human sacrifices) and Luthcheq (ruled by the Karanoks and their human sacrifices), both extremist, evil tyrannies. Soorenar's got to be doing something wrong to be in such company.
Which also makes it odd that Airspur still is. The priests of Bhaelros are gone, and the orcs and half-orcs seem quite progressive. In Old Empires, Khrulis was willing to make peace with Cimbar and even join them against his city's former allies. But the Godswar interrupted that, as it did most things.
Looking again at Shadow Stone, the rather fluid political situation described early on supports my hypothesis that the old alliances have collapsed through the 1360s and all the cities are jostling against one another and considering new alliances, with Akanax suggested to look to Airspur. Then Oriseus's shadow war breaks out, forcing new alliances, and Airspur does indeed join Akanax, for a time. Unfortunately, it doesn't last, and the old alliances are back in place by 1372, helped along, as you say, by Hippartes (and the designers) winding back the clock. I guess also that the new orcish regime can find no friends among their old enemies, and is rather stuck with the Northern Alliance for now. But even then, Airspur is looking out for other enemies (i.e., not the old enemies?). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 27 Jul 2013 : 14:08:33
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
I've tended to imagine the Tower Terrible redeveloped as a school of necromancy, since Velsharoon vacated. That is, merging the ancient Greek origins of the necromancer with the formal magical education we see in Cimbar to produce a kind of professional necromancer. (This was a background for a potential neutral necromancer PC.) It would have a shrine to Velsharoon without being a major centre of his meagre worship.
Taking that idea, Soorenar could develop its own small, low-level necromancer contingent, planting dragons' teeth to summon skeleton warriors and so on. :)
Like it. Consider it stolen.
Of course, we have to account for the fact that many Chessentans*, and not just people from Luthcheq, are superstitious about magic and spellcasters. Not to mention that in neighbouring Chondath, which has likely contributed a healthy number of recent immigrants to Soorenar, magic is feared and hated, particularly if it seems to be 'dark magic'.
I'd expect the new school of necromancy to be a source of much political friction, with factions within Soorenar calling for a pogrom of the 'evil necromancers and warlocks'. And to be a powerful piece of propaganda against Soorenar for Airspur, Cimbar and Akanax, in case they do use necromantic magic in warfare.
*See The Shadow Stone. |
| BadCatMan |
Posted - 27 Jul 2013 : 02:24:00
I've tended to imagine the Tower Terrible redeveloped as a school of necromancy, since Velsharoon vacated. That is, merging the ancient Greek origins of the necromancer with the formal magical education we see in Cimbar to produce a kind of professional necromancer. (This was a background for a potential neutral necromancer PC.) It would have a shrine to Velsharoon without being a major centre of his meagre worship.
Taking that idea, Soorenar could develop its own small, low-level necromancer contingent, planting dragons' teeth to summon skeleton warriors and so on. :) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Jul 2013 : 09:15:03
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just to point out, this was his main abode, as its the main one listed, so its wasn't somewhere that he only went occasionally.
It's described as 'one of his abodes'. Not 'his primary abode' or anything of that ilk. So assume that there are at least two more of equal importance and possibly more than that.
I'd think the Forgotten Crypt in Skull Gorge was most important.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to his accomplishment.... its not a small thing for a mortal to ascend to godhood via ritual cast by themselves. Sure, Cyric and Mystra were lifted up, but most would look at their ascension as whim of an overpower. Prior to that.... well, there was Karsus... didn't go so well.... and there were the Dark Three almost 1600 years prior.... and Azuth and Savras about 1000 years prior (roughly)... in the last few centuries, I can't think of any other mortal ascensions except for Finder.
There aren't that many named in our sources, but there is little reason why sourcebooks should mention every aspirant to godship who manages to attain demigodhood and then quickly collapses into the mists of history.
Remember, the ritual Velsharoon used was left by Talos/Bhaelros as a trap for mortals, specifically in order to raise ambitious and amoral ones up to more power than they can handle and watch the ensuing destruction. He's even noted for going through a lot of demigods this way.
Original sources are Polyhedron #55 and FA1 Halls of the High King:
"It is a process set down long ago by the god Talos, who uses up demigods the way some marching soldiers wear out boots."
Not exactly a rousing endorsement of Velsharoon's achievement. His qualifications were that he was powerful enough to use the ritual and ignorant enough of history and good sense to want to do so.
I would imagine that the only ones truly impressed by his achievement were particularly naive magelings. Any mage with a sense of history is going to realise that Velsharoon is the most recent fool to fall for Talos' trap and try to stay away from him as he fails to come to terms with godhood, tears his enemies in mortal life apart, makes divine enemies with more cunning in their little finger than he has in his whole bony body and then gets crushed.
Most sensible observers of divine politics give him a century, two at the most, with those who know Velsharoon maybe even betting that he'll be in trouble within the decade.
A lot of stories in the Realms indicate that most of those who seek ultimate power come to bad ends and just attaining the status of demigod is no protection from that fate.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, if you can get a mere 4 major spellcasters to relocate to the area (say 12th - 18th level) in the hopes of finding a place that will accept them, even praise them and provide divine aid to them, and they drag along a retinue of apprentices and lesser spellcasters, that's enough to make a significant difference in things. You're not talking armies here in this instance where you need a pilgrimage of thousands, you're talking about powerful individuals swaying things. If in total it causes an influx of 4-6 major casters (some being mystic theurges in service to the church mind you), 20-30 lesser casters , and about 50-100 apprentices.... you've got a significant caster increase.
I would expect about an order of magnitude fewer, if that. A couple of tourists, not a doubling of the city's arcane population.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That all being said, take and do with it what you will.
I might certainly introduce wizards of a necromantic bent who had visited Soorenar in their travels. I just don't think the fact that Talos' latest dupe had one of his abodes there is likely to be a major factor in the political, economic and military situation between the cities of Chessenta.
The Realms may be a fantasy setting, but it's supposed to be one with people in it. The causes of most things are found in more-or-less the same factors as our world, i.e. people responding to incentives. 'A wizard did it' (with the corollary 'he was insane' if it makes no sense) will occasionally be true, but it can't be the explanation for everything.
Especially not if we have to suppose that more than a hundred educated, secular people, in the five years since their colleague was duped by Talos, have developed enough religious fervour for his person that they make pilgrimages to one his abodes and then all end up placing themselves at the service of the local government. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Jul 2013 : 03:10:51
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You're not getting what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with Talos or Bhaelros. I'm saying there's probably a lot of necromancers (and mystic theurges, dread necromancers, and clerics with a necromantic bend) making pilgrimages to Soorenar. Soorenar, being a city that likes to hire mages, may take advantage of the influx of possibly powerful mages to attack Cimbar. Heck, the mages themselves may propose the idea so they can loot Cimbar.
I am sure that there are some, though as for 'pilgrimage', I think a more realistic description would be 'tourist stops'. When a colleague of yours manages to beat you to discovering a certain process through which he adds significantly to his power, it's highly unlikely that a mere five years later you'll be thinking of him as a capital 'g' God or making holy pilgrimages in his name, to one of his vacation homes no less.
Someone who was already a worshipper of Bhaelros/Talos and for whom the process itself was holy might have some illusions about there being anything religious about it, but I imagine that most necromancers simply see Velsharoon as a mortal who recently became more powerful than any of them. For most necromancers, or mages in general, there is little practical difference in kind between Velsharoon, Szass Tam or the Simbul for that matter.
Those hoping to repeat the process might visit the tower where it took place, in the Plains of Purple Dust. I suppose that there might be a few deluded souls trying to loot his summer home in Soorenar, but given that he isn't unable to defend it simply because he now has more power, I imagine they were given short shrift.
That being said, there could have been some increase in the number of spellcasters of necromantic bent who visit Soorenar, perhaps hoping that Velsharoon is keeping an eye on that place (along with the several other places where he kept homes) and that he'll spot their obvious worth and offer them sponsorship.
But I doubt very much that these wizards had anything to do with Soorenar's allegiance with Cimbar collapsing and Soorenar suddenly finding itself at war with Akanax and Cimbar combined, which is an allegiance that can destroy the city.
Unless an insane necromancer bound and determined to reduce the power of Soorenar seized power there, the we must look outside Soorenar to find any reason for why, in the middle of a war against Akanax, then city would find itself at war with Cimbar as well.
Cimbar is larger than Soorenar in terms of population and probably much more economically powerful. Cimbar has a better position for trade, after all, and is less exposed to the armies of Akanax.
And Soorenar had just fifteen years ago been utterly defeated by an allegiance of Akanax and Cimbar. So they know full well that such an allegiance is strategically fatal for them. Even if they can hire mercenary wizards, so can Cimbar, which is richer. And Akanax has more armies than Soorenar could ever pay for, anyway.
I imagine that the death of Sceptanar Oriseus and the disappearance of his primary ally from Soorenar caused the allegiance to collapse. As for that changing to war, with Cimbar under the control of a Sceptanar determined to keep the peace, however....
I'm blaming a newly resurrected King Hippartes, mired in the politics of the past. Combined, of course, with old distrust of Cimbar among the citizens of Soorenar and the resentment felt by the other two leading families against the Corynians and their allies from Cimbar for getting them into the war.
Just to point out, this was his main abode, as its the main one listed, so its wasn't somewhere that he only went occasionally. As to his accomplishment.... its not a small thing for a mortal to ascend to godhood via ritual cast by themselves. Sure, Cyric and Mystra were lifted up, but most would look at their ascension as whim of an overpower. Prior to that.... well, there was Karsus... didn't go so well.... and there were the Dark Three almost 1600 years prior.... and Azuth and Savras about 1000 years prior (roughly)... in the last few centuries, I can't think of any other mortal ascensions except for Finder. So, if you can get a mere 4 major spellcasters to relocate to the area (say 12th - 18th level) in the hopes of finding a place that will accept them, even praise them and provide divine aid to them, and they drag along a retinue of apprentices and lesser spellcasters, that's enough to make a significant difference in things. You're not talking armies here in this instance where you need a pilgrimage of thousands, you're talking about powerful individuals swaying things. If in total it causes an influx of 4-6 major casters (some being mystic theurges in service to the church mind you), 20-30 lesser casters , and about 50-100 apprentices.... you've got a significant caster increase.
That all being said, take and do with it what you will. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Jul 2013 : 03:10:27
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You're not getting what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with Talos or Bhaelros. I'm saying there's probably a lot of necromancers (and mystic theurges, dread necromancers, and clerics with a necromantic bend) making pilgrimages to Soorenar. Soorenar, being a city that likes to hire mages, may take advantage of the influx of possibly powerful mages to attack Cimbar. Heck, the mages themselves may propose the idea so they can loot Cimbar.
I am sure that there are some, though as for 'pilgrimage', I think a more realistic description would be 'tourist stops'. When a colleague of yours manages to beat you to discovering a certain process through which he adds significantly to his power, it's highly unlikely that a mere five years later you'll be thinking of him as a capital 'g' God or making holy pilgrimages in his name, to one of his vacation homes no less.
Someone who was already a worshipper of Bhaelros/Talos and for whom the process itself was holy might have some illusions about there being anything religious about it, but I imagine that most necromancers simply see Velsharoon as a mortal who recently became more powerful than any of them. For most necromancers, or mages in general, there is little practical difference in kind between Velsharoon, Szass Tam or the Simbul for that matter.
Those hoping to repeat the process might visit the tower where it took place, in the Plains of Purple Dust. I suppose that there might be a few deluded souls trying to loot his summer home in Soorenar, but given that he isn't unable to defend it simply because he now has more power, I imagine they were given short shrift.
That being said, there could have been some increase in the number of spellcasters of necromantic bent who visit Soorenar, perhaps hoping that Velsharoon is keeping an eye on that place (along with the several other places where he kept homes) and that he'll spot their obvious worth and offer them sponsorship.
But I doubt very much that these wizards had anything to do with Soorenar's allegiance with Cimbar collapsing and Soorenar suddenly finding itself at war with Akanax and Cimbar combined, which is an allegiance that can destroy the city.
Unless an insane necromancer bound and determined to reduce the power of Soorenar seized power there, the we must look outside Soorenar to find any reason for why, in the middle of a war against Akanax, then city would find itself at war with Cimbar as well.
Cimbar is larger than Soorenar in terms of population and probably much more economically powerful. Cimbar has a better position for trade, after all, and is less exposed to the armies of Akanax.
And Soorenar had just fifteen years ago been utterly defeated by an allegiance of Akanax and Cimbar. So they know full well that such an allegiance is strategically fatal for them. Even if they can hire mercenary wizards, so can Cimbar, which is richer. And Akanax has more armies than Soorenar could ever pay for, anyway.
I imagine that the death of Sceptanar Oriseus and the disappearance of his primary ally from Soorenar caused the allegiance to collapse. As for that changing to war, with Cimbar under the control of a Sceptanar determined to keep the peace, however....
I'm blaming a newly resurrected King Hippartes, mired in the politics of the past. Combined, of course, with old distrust of Cimbar among the citizens of Soorenar and the resentment felt by the other two leading families against the Corynians and their allies from Cimbar for getting them into the war.
Just to point out, this was his main abode, as its the main one listed, so its wasn't somewhere that he only went occasionally. As to his accomplishment.... its not a small thing for a mortal to ascend to godhood via ritual cast by themselves. Sure, Cyric and Mystra were lifted up, but most would look at their ascension as whim of an overpower. Prior to that.... well, there was Karsus... didn't go so well.... and there were the Dark Three almost 1600 years prior.... and Azuth and Savras about 1000 years prior (roughly)... in the last few centuries, I can't think of any other mortal ascensions except for Finder. So, if you can get a mere 4 major spellcasters to relocate to the area (say 12th - 18th level) in the hopes of finding a place that will accept them, even praise them and provide divine aid to them, and they drag along a retinue of apprentices and lesser spellcasters, that's enough to make a significant difference in things. You're not talking armies here in this instance where you need a pilgrimage of thousands, you're talking about powerful individuals swaying things. If in total it causes an influx of 4-6 major casters (some being mystic theurges in service to the church mind you), 20-30 lesser casters , and about 50-100 apprentices.... you've got a significant caster increase.
That all being said, take and do with it what you will. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Jul 2013 : 17:59:02
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You're not getting what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with Talos or Bhaelros. I'm saying there's probably a lot of necromancers (and mystic theurges, dread necromancers, and clerics with a necromantic bend) making pilgrimages to Soorenar. Soorenar, being a city that likes to hire mages, may take advantage of the influx of possibly powerful mages to attack Cimbar. Heck, the mages themselves may propose the idea so they can loot Cimbar.
I am sure that there are some, though as for 'pilgrimage', I think a more realistic description would be 'tourist stops'. When a colleague of yours manages to beat you to discovering a certain process through which he adds significantly to his power, it's highly unlikely that a mere five years later you'll be thinking of him as a capital 'g' God or making holy pilgrimages in his name, to one of his vacation homes no less.
Someone who was already a worshipper of Bhaelros/Talos and for whom the process itself was holy might have some illusions about there being anything religious about it, but I imagine that most necromancers simply see Velsharoon as a mortal who recently became more powerful than any of them. For most necromancers, or mages in general, there is little practical difference in kind between Velsharoon, Szass Tam or the Simbul for that matter.
Those hoping to repeat the process might visit the tower where it took place, in the Plains of Purple Dust. I suppose that there might be a few deluded souls trying to loot his summer home in Soorenar, but given that he isn't unable to defend it simply because he now has more power, I imagine they were given short shrift.
That being said, there could have been some increase in the number of spellcasters of necromantic bent who visit Soorenar, perhaps hoping that Velsharoon is keeping an eye on that place (along with the several other places where he kept homes) and that he'll spot their obvious worth and offer them sponsorship.
But I doubt very much that these wizards had anything to do with Soorenar's allegiance with Cimbar collapsing and Soorenar suddenly finding itself at war with Akanax and Cimbar combined, which is an allegiance that can destroy the city.
Unless an insane necromancer bound and determined to reduce the power of Soorenar seized power there, the we must look outside Soorenar to find any reason for why, in the middle of a war against Akanax, then city would find itself at war with Cimbar as well.
Cimbar is larger than Soorenar in terms of population and probably much more economically powerful. Cimbar has a better position for trade, after all, and is less exposed to the armies of Akanax.
And Soorenar had just fifteen years ago been utterly defeated by an allegiance of Akanax and Cimbar. So they know full well that such an allegiance is strategically fatal for them. Even if they can hire mercenary wizards, so can Cimbar, which is richer. And Akanax has more armies than Soorenar could ever pay for, anyway.
I imagine that the death of Sceptanar Oriseus and the disappearance of his primary ally from Soorenar caused the allegiance to collapse. As for that changing to war, with Cimbar under the control of a Sceptanar determined to keep the peace, however....
I'm blaming a newly resurrected King Hippartes, mired in the politics of the past. Combined, of course, with old distrust of Cimbar among the citizens of Soorenar and the resentment felt by the other two leading families against the Corynians and their allies from Cimbar for getting them into the war. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Jul 2013 : 15:28:22
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm also going to throw another wrinkle into your equations. In 1368 DR, "The lich Velsharoon ascends to godhood with the sponsorship of the deity Talos." Then I'll add "As a mortal, Velsharoon was a renegade Red Wizard of Thay who lived in the Tower Terrible in Soorenar as well as several other abodes." So, a deity who recently ascended to godhood in 1368 DR (not sure if it was early or late 1368 DR) resided physically in Soorenar. I can see that becoming a "holy ground" for Velsharoon's worshippers. If it takes them 2 years to get a temple built around the tower (including time to acquire the land legally/illegally.... which would be fast, so they might temporarily setup in another abandoned temple or similar complex), it might be that the time of Cimbar and Soorenar's conflict arises around the same time that Soorenar is seeing an influx of necromancers making pilgrimages to Soorenar. Considering Soorenar is known for hiring mages as mercenaries, they may be taking advantage of this influx.
Keep in mind also that Talos (or Bhaelros as he's known locally) is not exactly popular in neighbouring Airspur, where his priests recently ruled as tyrants, sacrificing virgins and suchlike.
Accusations of Bhaelros worship are a favourite method for the secular authorities there to deal with political opponents. Any actual Bhaelros worshippers have long since fled, perhaps, in part, to neighbouring Soorenar.
That aside, I imagine there are lots of human and economic factors which weigh far more deeply in Soorenar (and other cities of Chessenta) than divine politics, especially as they pertain to a solitary necromancer who increased his personal power through a magical ritual to the status of demipower, around five years ago, but certainly does not have many worshippers.
You're not getting what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with Talos or Bhaelros. I'm saying there's probably a lot of necromancers (and mystic theurges, dread necromancers, and clerics with a necromantic bend) making pilgrimages to Soorenar. Soorenar, being a city that likes to hire mages, may take advantage of the influx of possibly powerful mages to attack Cimbar. Heck, the mages themselves may propose the idea so they can loot Cimbar. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Jul 2013 : 14:22:13
Akanax and Kings:
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Where is said Hippartes died? Assuran army was defeated in the field by Anhur, but P&P says "Hoar was once again driven from Unther in defeat." To me, that implies a somewhat organised retreat. Assuran/Hoar could have vacated Hippartes and left him alive.
It isn't said, but I assumed that it was the only way we could have events the scale of those in The Shadow Stone happen without King Hippartes being involved.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Hippartes already had three sons: Phillipus, Cassarian, and Themothys. Assuming Hippartes was dead or something, it's unusual one of them didn't take power in his place. (perhaps all three died in the Godswar, a suitable reason for a living Hippartes to take himself out of the action).
Oddly, Shadow Stone calls Gormantor "Overking" while Hippartes is merely "King" elsewhere. Gormantor's Overkingship might be a ceremonial position.
I assumed that the eldest surviving son of Hippartes succeeded into his father's Kingship, but with Gormantor, having ruled as (junior) partner with Hippartes, being crowned Overking after Hippartes' death.
That seems to neatly explain everything. There are always (at least) two kings in Akanax, one Overking and one junior one. It is also traditional that one be a war leader and the other be administrator of the home kingdom, but that distinction is often lost. King Hippartes completely overhadowed his co-King and was Overking for his reign, but once he is out of the picture, King Gormantor becomes much more important and the new junior King is merely viewed as a war-leader by outsiders.
Vilhonese immigrants and Akanax:
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Vilhon Reach: I don't know enough about the area to say, but the passage says "and continual immigration from the fertile Vilhon Reach (an annual rush of folk with their own ideas about how Chessenta should be run, and scant regard for established customs and authorities)". So I assume it's just overpopulation.
That too, of course. I note that one of the causes that led to war in the Blade Kingdoms appears to have been overpopulation. Too many sons with nothing to inherit.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Fortunately, Akanax doesn't have Sparta's thing with racial purity. Only pureblood Spartiates could be full citizens and elite warriors, but wars, demotion and gender segregation steadily eroded their numbers. By the Peloponnesian War, Sparta could barely afford to enter battle for fearing of depleting its ruling class. Akanax seems quite able to replenish its numbers, so yes, perhaps a good number of them are in fact Vilhonese Chondathans, thoroughly indoctrinated in Akanaxian ways.
That's how I prefer to view it. |
| BadCatMan |
Posted - 25 Jul 2013 : 14:01:28
Hippartes: Where is said Hippartes died? Assuran army was defeated in the field by Anhur, but P&P says "Hoar was once again driven from Unther in defeat." To me, that implies a somewhat organised retreat. Assuran/Hoar could have vacated Hippartes and left him alive.
Hippartes already had three sons: Phillipus, Cassarian, and Themothys. Assuming Hippartes was dead or something, it's unusual one of them didn't take power in his place. (perhaps all three died in the Godswar, a suitable reason for a living Hippartes to take himself out of the action).
Oddly, Shadow Stone calls Gormantor "Overking" while Hippartes is merely "King" elsewhere. Gormantor's Overkingship might be a ceremonial position.
Anyway, great idea about a resurrected Hippartes taking politics back 14 years. It's curious that the traditional Northern Alliance (Airspur, Soorenar, and Luthcheq) and Triangle Alliance (Cimbar, Akanax, and Mordulkin) arrangement collapsed during
The Shadow Stone (Cimbar & Soorenar vs Akanax, Airspur & Mordulkin with the prior jostling), and it should have done so following the Godswar and the peace talks, but they were right back in place in 1372 DR. Hippartes coming back like a stodgy old conservative is a neat explanation. And it fits a follower of Assuran to be resurrecting old feuds.
Vilhon Reach: I don't know enough about the area to say, but the passage says "and continual immigration from the fertile Vilhon Reach (an annual rush of folk with their own ideas about how Chessenta should be run, and scant regard for established customs and authorities)". So I assume it's just overpopulation.
Fortunately, Akanax doesn't have Sparta's thing with racial purity. Only pureblood Spartiates could be full citizens and elite warriors, but wars, demotion and gender segregation steadily eroded their numbers. By the Peloponnesian War, Sparta could barely afford to enter battle for fearing of depleting its ruling class. Akanax seems quite able to replenish its numbers, so yes, perhaps a good number of them are in fact Vilhonese Chondathans, thoroughly indoctrinated in Akanaxian ways. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Jul 2013 : 11:44:21
From the Godswar to the Year of the Banner:
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
The Time of Troubles and the Godswar then I take to be a reset point in Chessentan politics. Assuran's alliance disintegrates, but the cities seem too tired of war to keep fighting. I haven't noticed any particular wars in the years following.
Seems reasonable enough. After all, Assuran's army would have fallen apart inside Unther, with angry locals of various factions all around them and probably no way of supplying most of them once the allegiance was broken.* Once the survivors got home, I can see they'd have been tired of war.
Which Chessentan city would have controlled access to the Methmere at the time of the war? And which does so today?
Ownership of the town of Maerch would seem critical.
*Cimbar's navy could have supported (and even fetched back) Cimbar's troops, but they are not likely to have done so for any former allies once Assuran's/Hippartes' leadership was no more. By the same token, whichever Chessentan city controls access to the Methmere would have been able to send galleys over the water to supply and fetch back its complement.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
There's a bumper vegetable harvest in Chessenta in 1367, according to the 2nd edition FRCS's Running the Realms timeline, which seems to have been an economic boon across the land, but prompting brigands to attack caravans.
Then an interesting event occurs that year, according to Code of the Harpers, presumably helped along by the harvest profits and brigands. Exhausted by warfare, suffering from brigands and slavers, fearing Thayan influence and Vilhonese immigrants, the leaders of Chessenta's cities had talks with a view towards alliance against outsiders and unification. A pan-Chessentan army and border guard, an "overall taxation system", other schemes, and even choosing an "Overking" (not one of the existing rulers) to manage Chessenta as a whole.
Interesting what happens without Tchazzar in the background, hey?
This is extremely interesting. Of course, I can see why the talks failed, but that they happened at all is revealing.
I wonder if 'Vilhonese' immigrants might include Blade Kingdom people? It is canon, no matter how some dislike the idea, that there was a destructive war in that region in 1368 DR. Seems very logical that people would emigrate in connection with that.
And, of course, it provides a convenient explanation for how Akanax rebuilt its military strength after what must have been near total annhilitation of their soldiers in a series of lost wars. They adopted likely-looking lads among the Blade Kingdom refugees as warrior-apprentices, as well as perhaps even accepting the most impressive of the adult male warriors marrying Akanaxian widows. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Jul 2013 : 10:10:48
Great post, BadCatMan. I think I'll break the issues down to respond to them, to make discussion easier.
Kings of Akanax:
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
King Hippartes and King Gormantor of Akanax are strange. Perhaps Hippartes returned from service to Assuran to retake the throne a second time. Or maybe, like Sparta, they have two kings: one for home and one for war.
The two kings were my first thought. Given that The Shadow Stone mentions King Gormantor being old and various characters talk about him as if he's been there forever, it would be unsatisfactorily to posit him being a young heir of Hippartes'. I'd very much prefer him to be his co-king, perhaps an uncle.
As for King Hippartes' apparent death during the Godswar, his therefore quite logical absence during the events of The Shadow Stone and sudden and inexplicable reemergence sometime between 1370 and 1372 DR...
I guess it makes sense that not only PCs and their enemies ever get Raised or Resurrected. Maybe the response of the high priests of Akanax to their city being besieged by an allegiance of Soorenar and Cimbar was to Resurrect King Hippartes. He may have been a violent thuggish tyrant, but at that point, perhaps a more important consideration was that he was their violent thuggish tyrant.
Upon Resurrection, I expect King Hippartes went right back to his old ways of ignoring his co-king and ruling as sole tyrant.
Which also serves to neatly explain how Akanax' foreign policy doesn't seem to have been affected by the events of The Shadow Stone, but instead moved right along from the situation of 1357-1358 DR. It was guided by a man who was last conscious and aware at the end of 1358 DR and who is quite capable of overriding the guidance of councilors based on the conditions of today in favour of making decisions based on old rancour and resentment.
Thus, war against Luthcheq immediately upon retaking power, even though that city was apparently neutral or allied to Akanax against Soorenar and Cimbar.
And despite Cimbar having led the allegiance against them, King Hippartes is used to seeing them as allies, so he immediately accepts* that there has been a change in government there and the new government is opposed to war against Akanax. Hence, an allegiance against (Corynian-led) Soorenar.
Which I imagine quickly led to the Corynians losing power, but King Hippartes wouldn't care about that, he'd want to see Soorenar razed to the ground and its populace massacred. So he'd press his allies to keep fighting despite the change in government.
*King Hippartes is otherwise not a forgiving man, but he finds it easier to forgive transgressions that occured while he was dead. He probably sees nothing odd in people assuming that Akanax' strength and very legitimacy having come to an end with his death. |
| BadCatMan |
Posted - 25 Jul 2013 : 04:11:50
The Time of Troubles and the Godswar then I take to be a reset point in Chessentan politics. Assuran's alliance disintegrates, but the cities seem too tired of war to keep fighting. I haven't noticed any particular wars in the years following.
There's a bumper vegetable harvest in Chessenta in 1367, according to the 2nd edition FRCS's Running the Realms timeline, which seems to have been an economic boon across the land, but prompting brigands to attack caravans.
Then an interesting event occurs that year, according to Code of the Harpers, presumably helped along by the harvest profits and brigands. Exhausted by warfare, suffering from brigands and slavers, fearing Thayan influence and Vilhonese immigrants, the leaders of Chessenta's cities had talks with a view towards alliance against outsiders and unification. A pan-Chessentan army and border guard, an "overall taxation system", other schemes, and even choosing an "Overking" (not one of the existing rulers) to manage Chessenta as a whole.
Interesting what happens without Tchazzar in the background, hey?
Of course, the Thayans, the Cult of the Dragon (probably Alaskerbanbastos's cell), and even the Harpers all put forward their own potential Overkings. This plothook is left un-concluded, but given later conflicts, it looks like the talks failed beneath the weight of interference. (Scott Bennie's "Old Empires Prestige Classes, Spells, and Sundry" collection of unpublished, non-canon material goes into a bit more detail on these talks and their failure, as part of his alternate history.)
And it all falls apart again. Now I've read The Shadow Stone (but not yet integrated it into my notes or worked out its sparse dates), I could lay the blame for this on Sceptanar Oriseus and his machinations and alliance with Soorenar via the Corynians.
And yet, in Realms of the Deep: "The Patrol", Soorenar was launching raids on Cimbar's docks as late as Flamerule of 1369, as a prelude to war. This was shortly followed by sahaugin.
Don't forget the monsters driven out of the Smoking Mountains by an eruption there in 1372. They were a source of concern for the southern cities.
The rest you know.
King Hippartes and King Gormantor of Akanax are strange. Perhaps Hippartes returned from service to Assuran to retake the throne a second time. Or maybe, like Sparta, they have two kings: one for home and one for war.
The ruins of Luthcheq could be many things. Given the city is clearly still there in other sources and quite active, the ruins are likely to be a small portion of the city. Perhaps they date back centuries, or they were crushed in the Godswar. Or they were a wizard's district demolished when the the Karanoks took over (a destroyed tower left as a warning is noted in Maiden of Pain. Or the people of the city have fled the oppressive Karanok rule and parts of the city have fallen to ruin.
In Soorenar, unfortunately, we don't know which of the rulers Thurik, Yashur and Brolkchant is of the Corynian family. Pick one, I guess, there's little else to distinguish them. I imagine after the failed alliance with Oriseus, the Corynians are out of favour. Soorenar was already gearing for war with Cimbar anyway, their traditional enemy. The remaining lords break off relations with Cimbar, and Sceptanar Melisanda is happy to oblige. Perhaps Soorenar continues to push for war with Cimbar and things deteriorate from there.
You say Luthcheq is warring against Akanax, but it actually says Akanax is warring against Luthcheq. Akanax is the aggressor, harrying Luthcheq, and Luthcheq may just be on the defensive and would rather be up against Cimbar or Mordulkin. It makes sense for Akanax to keep Luthcheq off its allies' backs. Luthcheq should have anti-wizard tactics and witchweed, which mean nothing against Akanaxian hoplites. This frees Cimbar and Mordulkin up to fight Airspur and Soorenar, and Mordulkin to suffer under Alaskerbanbastos's domination.
Airspur seems to have taken heavy losses against Cimbar and is rebuilding and looking for other enemies in 1372. I presume that means they're out of the war, or maybe they start harassing Akanax.
Mordulkin, backed by Thay, with Airspur out and Akanax harrassing Luthcheq, is ready to move on Luthcheq in Maiden of Pain in the winter of 1373. Meanwhile, Cimbar is engaging Luthcheq on the seas. Then it's the Rage of Dragons, and Tchazzar returns, and obliterates the fleets of both Cimbar and Soorenar and kicks out Alasklerbanbastos's dragons. The dragon-god-king has returned, the armies pull back (maybe he doesn't want them fighting?), and politics reset while they rebuilt and consider this new player. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Jul 2013 : 14:57:39
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd pretty much go with the idea that the majority of these forces are mercenaries who sign contracts for X seasons of service. So, after they've worked for Soorenar for a year, the mercenaries may start working for Akanax, or Airspur, or Cimbar, or Luthcheq, etc... That would explain the ability of these city states to have been at war and then suddenly pull thousands of soldiers out of their pockets. Of course, someone would have to explain away the monetary expense (which its too early in the morning for me to think that through).
While that works for some of these cities, it does not work for Akanax and Luthcheq, both of which have forbidden mercenaries entirely from operating on any land they control, for all the period since they were first mentioned (in 1357 DR) until the current era.
And it is Akanax and Luthcheq which require explanation.
I think Akanax can be explained by the simple fact that even if it was defeated in foreign wars (1357-1361 DR) and forced to accede to a humiliating peace by besiegers of Akanax (1370 DR), no one actually massacred the women and children of the Akanul hinterlands.
And since every boy subject to Akanax authority is conscripted immediately upon reaching adulthood, that means that in addition to any survivors of their previous wars, they receive some thousands of new soldiers every year. At minimum a thousand, probably closer to five thousand.
So I guess they could suffer horrendous casualties in the wars and still remain a military force.
Luthcheq is much tougher. In fact, it is almost impossible to construct anything resembling a coherent narrative of Luthcheq, given that one official source (The Shadow Stone) describes the city as a ruin in 1367-1370 DR and another official source (Maiden of Pain) has it as a prosperous city, with no hint of any wars or foreign threats, between 1370-1373 DR. With characters recollecting peaceful and serene youths or childhoods in an entirely non-ruined Luthcheq between 1352 and the current era.
Not to mention that Saestra Karanok was an adult vampire in 1357 DR (Old Empires) but an innocent human girl of eighteen in 1370 DR (Maiden of Pain). Whereupon she became a vampire.
The first thing I'd do if I wanted to make sense of it all would be assuming that the vignette in the beginning of Maiden of Pain was actually misdated. It was meant to be the year 1350 DR, describing how Saestra became a vampire in that year.
That takes care of the problems with the Karanok family. What remains is explaining how the city was ruined, but rose again and remained under the power of the Karanoks, who lost none of their wealth, soldiery, buildings or any important member of the dynasty.
Any suggestions?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm also going to throw another wrinkle into your equations. In 1368 DR, "The lich Velsharoon ascends to godhood with the sponsorship of the deity Talos." Then I'll add "As a mortal, Velsharoon was a renegade Red Wizard of Thay who lived in the Tower Terrible in Soorenar as well as several other abodes." So, a deity who recently ascended to godhood in 1368 DR (not sure if it was early or late 1368 DR) resided physically in Soorenar. I can see that becoming a "holy ground" for Velsharoon's worshippers. If it takes them 2 years to get a temple built around the tower (including time to acquire the land legally/illegally.... which would be fast, so they might temporarily setup in another abandoned temple or similar complex), it might be that the time of Cimbar and Soorenar's conflict arises around the same time that Soorenar is seeing an influx of necromancers making pilgrimages to Soorenar. Considering Soorenar is known for hiring mages as mercenaries, they may be taking advantage of this influx.
Keep in mind also that Talos (or Bhaelros as he's known locally) is not exactly popular in neighbouring Airspur, where his priests recently ruled as tyrants, sacrificing virgins and suchlike.
Accusations of Bhaelros worship are a favourite method for the secular authorities there to deal with political opponents. Any actual Bhaelros worshippers have long since fled, perhaps, in part, to neighbouring Soorenar.
That aside, I imagine there are lots of human and economic factors which weigh far more deeply in Soorenar (and other cities of Chessenta) than divine politics, especially as they pertain to a solitary necromancer who increased his personal power through a magical ritual to the status of demipower, around five years ago, but certainly does not have many worshippers. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Jul 2013 : 13:51:52
I'd pretty much go with the idea that the majority of these forces are mercenaries who sign contracts for X seasons of service. So, after they've worked for Soorenar for a year, the mercenaries may start working for Akanax, or Airspur, or Cimbar, or Luthcheq, etc... That would explain the ability of these city states to have been at war and then suddenly pull thousands of soldiers out of their pockets. Of course, someone would have to explain away the monetary expense (which its too early in the morning for me to think that through).
I'm also going to throw another wrinkle into your equations. In 1368 DR, "The lich Velsharoon ascends to godhood with the sponsorship of the deity Talos." Then I'll add "As a mortal, Velsharoon was a renegade Red Wizard of Thay who lived in the Tower Terrible in Soorenar as well as several other abodes." So, a deity who recently ascended to godhood in 1368 DR (not sure if it was early or late 1368 DR) resided physically in Soorenar. I can see that becoming a "holy ground" for Velsharoon's worshippers. If it takes them 2 years to get a temple built around the tower (including time to acquire the land legally/illegally.... which would be fast, so they might temporarily setup in another abandoned temple or similar complex), it might be that the time of Cimbar and Soorenar's conflict arises around the same time that Soorenar is seeing an influx of necromancers making pilgrimages to Soorenar. Considering Soorenar is known for hiring mages as mercenaries, they may be taking advantage of this influx. |
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