| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 16:11:05
I define "powerful outsiders" as Solar or Demon prince level. How common are they? Do these unions result in a uniquely powerful type of being? |
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Barastir |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 18:26:28
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
That's why -even tho I somehow like Corellon- the way he is portrayed in the Realms really grates my nerves...
True enough... Well, talking about the issue of the thread, is any of the elven lesser or demigods of Dragon Magazine the son of one of the Seldarine with a powerful outsider? I was wondering, I think at least one of them is the son of two greater deities, but ended up being a god with a much lesser status. How does it work? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 17:20:34
Well, he's the one who powered the curse (and this by its own right was bad, even the Ilythiiri didn't deserve to have their whole race doomed) and I doubt that a greater god couldn't be able to add a criteria of selectivity to the spell. That's why -even tho I somehow like Corellon- the way he is portrayed in the Realms really grates my nerves... |
| Barastir |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 17:07:47
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The drow weren't corrupted yet when Eilistraee chose exile. She did so because she had a vision of a future where the dark elves would have needed her (IIRC).
I think you're right... So maybe that's it, it was not because he was mad necessarily (out of ire, I say), but an idiotic punishment anyway. Maybe because it was done by the survivors, who acted in a racist way. But hen, would Corellon be able to make the ritual work only for some of the Ssri-Tel'Quessir? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 12:34:42
The drow weren't corrupted yet when Eilistraee chose exile. She did so because she had a vision of a future where the dark elves would have needed her (IIRC).
It sounds stupid of Corellon to act like he did about the Crown Wars, yet this is how he is portrayed. The dark elves of Ilythiir were cursed for turning to Lolth and Vhaeraun (and Ghaundadur IIRC) and using whatever source of power they gave them in a war which involved far worse actions. I have no idea why the survivors of Miyeritar were cursed alongside the Ilythiiri.
Considering this, I really fail to see other reasons for such an idiotic punishment but his rage (GHotR says that it was one of the many mistakes associated with High Magic -or something along these lines- but it does not give any real reason for it). |
| Barastir |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 12:14:58
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I can't find any other reason but ''Corellon was mad at the drow for picking Lolth over him, so he decided to curse everyone'' (...)
This explanation looks very unfit to the Corellon Larethian I read about in The Complete Book of Elves, Monster Mythology, Demihuman Deities and Evermeet: Island of Elves (in which he allows the Seldarine to condemn Eilistraee, whom he deeply loved, so she can try to save the goodly drow, IIRC). |
| Irennan |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 09:14:57
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I do wonder why the entire dark elf race were punished into drow. Not all of them were bad and betrayed elf-kind. I mean if punishment must suit the crime then the sun elves should be the one being punished now for their atrocities. But no slap on the wrist is all they get...Maybe its because they were "dark" elves but then again I must be reading too much into it...(No racism meant,honest!)
Here's a thread better suited for the discussion:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17916&whichpage=1
I can't find any other reason but ''Corellon was mad at the drow for picking Lolth over him, so he decided to curse everyone'' (even the ones who used to be faithful of his daughter, or to simply live like a normal elf before being swept away by the Dark Disaster). |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 05:19:29
I do wonder why the entire dark elf race were punished into drow. Not all of them were bad and betrayed elf-kind. I mean if punishment must suit the crime then the sun elves should be the one being punished now for their atrocities. But no slap on the wrist is all they get...Maybe its because they were "dark" elves but then again I must be reading too much into it...(No racism meant,honest!) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 16:30:46
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
This is a point of view that you can make work in you Realms, according to your preference. You can give mortals this flexibility, and outsiders a limit. But one can go in two ways different from that. You can make mortal races (who are not humans, and thus think differently) to be generally evil or good (like good for elves or dwarves, and evil for goblins or orcs), with only a few exceptions, or you can open exceptions for outsiders (in western RW cultures Lucifer was the head of angels and took a lot of them with him, after all, and in FR Wendonai is a fallen celestial, among others in D&D).
Alignment, in races, can be dependent on the gods that created them that way, can be a cultural issue, or can be something inerent to their nature, and this decision will affect your choice, of course. Personnaly, I use good and evil mortal races based on culture and godly influence. I think the creation infises the races with tendencies, like kindness in elves, and violence in orcs. As I said, it is a tendency, not a forced nature, and loyalty is not forced in that way (and in any way by goodly deities). So, there are a few exceptions in race alignment.
On the other hand, I consider outsiders more naturally good or evil, made from their deities that way, and maybe created by the very stuff of their home planes, but also with a (very much) smaller degree of choice depending on their intelligence and free will, and on their experience.
But this is sidetracking this thread, if there is more to discuss about this issue I think we should create a new thread, or use the "elven genocide" thread that, in a way, was discussing the alignment of this specific race and of all races in general, especially considering the past wars and killings promoted by an allegedly "good" race.
EDIT: Clearer explanation, sidetracking warning
Yes, we had a nice discussion in the other thread.
I was just replying to Lilianviaten by saying that the ''because magic'' explanation of the drow behaviour looks like an attempt by WotC to get rid of the concept of ''free'' drow to me (you know, according to them a handful of the Dark elves were turned in brownies, all the other were ''unwilling and cast down'' -seriously...-), which does indeed reduce the depth of the setting by limiting choices.
Anyway, this is off topic. My apologies. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 12:11:20
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I never understood why WOTC went the route of explaining the drow's innate evil as the result of Wendonai's "taint". In Evans's Brimstone Angels books and Kemp's Erevis Cale saga, we have tiefling protagonists who are good (or neutral). There is also a neutral tiefling in Venom in Her Veins. So tieflings have the potential to be neutral or even good, but drow are somehow innately evil due to demon blood.
I don't know what you mean because there are plenty of non evil drow.
The majority is evil though, and thats not because of their taint (it may give them an affection towards evil) but because they grow up in a society where priestresses of Lolth teach them to be evil.
|
| Barastir |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 12:08:03
This is a point of view that you can make work in you Realms, according to your preference. You can give mortals this flexibility, and outsiders a limit. But one can go in two ways different from that. You can make mortal races (who are not humans, and thus think differently) to be generally evil or good (like good for elves or dwarves, and evil for goblins or orcs), with only a few exceptions, or you can open exceptions for outsiders (in western RW cultures Lucifer was the head of angels and took a lot of them with him, after all, and in FR Wendonai is a fallen celestial, among others in D&D).
Alignment, in races, can be dependent on the gods that created them that way, can be a cultural issue, or can be something inerent to their nature, and this decision will affect your choice, of course. Personnaly, I use good and evil mortal races based on culture and godly influence. I think the creation infises the races with tendencies, like kindness in elves, and violence in orcs. As I said, it is a tendency, not a forced nature, and loyalty is not forced in that way (and in any way by goodly deities). So, there are a few exceptions in race alignment.
On the other hand, I consider outsiders more naturally good or evil, made from their deities that way, and maybe created by the very stuff of their home planes, but also with a (very much) smaller degree of choice depending on their intelligence and free will, and on their experience.
But this is sidetracking this thread, if there is more to discuss about this issue I think we should create a new thread, or use the "elven genocide" thread that, in a way, was discussing the alignment of this specific race and of all races in general, especially considering the past wars and killings promoted by an allegedly "good" race.
EDIT: Clearer explanation, sidetracking warning |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 09:48:26
quote:
But before that major houses allready got corrupted by Lolth with the help of the Balor Wendonei who bred with many houses to put his demon blood into their blood line.
Tens of thousand years later Wendonei claims that almost all drow have his blood in them.
What was left of Miyeritar was free of that. With time bloodlines mixed and the ''curse'' spread.
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I never understood why WOTC went the route of explaining the drow's innate evil as the result of Wendonai's "taint". In Evans's Brimstone Angels books and Kemp's Erevis Cale saga, we have tiefling protagonists who are good (or neutral). There is also a neutral tiefling in Venom in Her Veins. So tieflings have the potential to be neutral or even good, but drow are somehow innately evil due to demon blood.
Drow, like orcs and other ''shady'' races, shouldn't be innately evil. They're mortals, as such they aren't bound to any kind of behaviour, they can choice. Reducing them to the innately X status is just so damn ugly, limiting and dumbed down, if you ask me.
I guess that they wanted to completely get rid of any kind of drow but the 'ebil' one. By saying that they have that curse, they basicaly want to imply that all of them are innately evil. I have no words to describe how incredibly lame it is... |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 06:41:04
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Drow were a mating between lloth and a demon lord or something.
As stated drow became drow when the other elves with the help of Corellon cursed the dark elves.
But before that major houses allready got corrupted by Lolth with the help of the Balor Wendonei who bred with many houses to put his demon blood into their blood line.
Tens of thousand years later Wendonei claims that almost all drow have his blood in them.
I never understood why WOTC went the route of explaining the drow's innate evil as the result of Wendonai's "taint". In Evans's Brimstone Angels books and Kemp's Erevis Cale saga, we have tiefling protagonists who are good (or neutral). There is also a neutral tiefling in Venom in Her Veins. So tieflings have the potential to be neutral or even good, but drow are somehow innately evil due to demon blood. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 13:50:36
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Drow were a mating between lloth and a demon lord or something.
As stated drow became drow when the other elves with the help of Corellon cursed the dark elves.
But before that major houses allready got corrupted by Lolth with the help of the Balor Wendonei who bred with many houses to put his demon blood into their blood line.
Tens of thousand years later Wendonei claims that almost all drow have his blood in them. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 13:42:02
Why fallen?
Anyone is capable of making bad choices.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 12:53:46
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Iyachtu Xvim was the product of a union between Bane and a greater/true tanar'ri, probably a Marilith but that's the only FR-specific one I can think of off the top of my head.
It's also been indicated that Xvim's mom was a fallen paladin. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 12:19:52
Iyachtu Xvim was the product of a union between Bane and a greater/true tanar'ri, probably a Marilith but that's the only FR-specific one I can think of off the top of my head. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 05:41:03
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Look at Zeus. Anything with a reproductive organ is fair game to a god.
I'm not sure Zeus's standards were that high.
Of course, dragons were the same way in 3E, with the half-dragon template and the different spawn types...  |
| jordanz |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 01:36:38
Here's one...http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~leirbakk/rpg/adnd/monsters/adnd_monster_mordukhavar.html |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 01:11:40
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
hmmm one of the demons had sex with a gyrospheix and made babies..... Drow were a mating between lloth and a demon lord or something. Hmm...start looking in monster manuals.
No, drow were the result of elves who were cursed into that form as punishment from Corellon and the Seldarine. DRAEGLOTHS are a result of demons(galbrezu) mating with drow. But neither was the direct result of Lolth's involvement. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 00:37:17
The 3.0 Epic level Handbook has the ugly monster called Abomination: "The unwanted offspring of a deity and another being. Immortal, spiteful, destructive creatures of immense power."
Essentially a half-divine half-monster foetus with epic anti-divine powers. They are usually slain or imprisoned. Only the gods know what they can grow into. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 23:37:04
hmmm one of the demons had sex with a gyrospheix and made babies..... Drow were a mating between lloth and a demon lord or something. Hmm...start looking in monster manuals. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 19:52:51
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Look at Zeus. Anything with a reproductive organ is fair game to a god.
In D&D, Solars and Demons can have offspring with mortals so it stands to reason they can be on the recieving end. The result would be a demi-god status outsider (divine rank 0) or might even be more powerful if the greater god invests some of its essence (i.e. an unwanted or lesser portfolio) to it.
Are there any canonized examples? |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 17:51:21
Look at Zeus. Anything with a reproductive organ is fair game to a god.
In D&D, Solars and Demons can have offspring with mortals so it stands to reason they can be on the recieving end. The result would be a demi-god status outsider (divine rank 0) or might even be more powerful if the greater god invests some of its essence (i.e. an unwanted or lesser portfolio) to it. |
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