| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 22 Jun 2013 : 19:44:18
*point of view of 4e magic user going into 5e*
Why would we even want a god or goddess of magic, we are not like the ones before us, we learned how to use magic without some god teaching us, we discovered methods around what use to be taught, and does not relies on some "gatekeeper" or goody two shoes, telling us what to do with our magic, or trying to keep control of it.
So you tell me ex priest of mystara, why I should worship or pay homage to a dead god to bring them back, for something I already control and straddle rules on it ?
What can your god of magic offer me that I don't already have? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Emma Drake |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 16:48:13
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
And thanks for putting a smile on my face, Emma. 
Success! :) |
| Emma Drake |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 16:34:11
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Borrowing from RW philosophy, we know that a sentient being (and maybe non-sentients as well) are composed of three major 'selfs' - Body, Mind, and Soul. This translates perfectly in D&D, because upon death we have the mind getting stored in the Astral (IIRC), the soul going on to whatever afterlife it has earned, and the body crumbling (except in the case of undead with physical forms). The body is obviously our anchor to the Prime Material - it is an organic phylactory.
Moving on... Mystra - the one we are most familiar with - is the 'mind', and The Weave is the body. That leaves the Soul... I guess I just figured-out why Mystryl/Mystra needs a human component in each incarnation.
Anyhow, we could say that I - Mark Taylor - am also these three things. All three could said to be 'Mark'. However, that doesn't preclude the notion that all three are also separate things, each with its on 'job' to do to create one whole, living being. Mystra the mind and Mystra the body (The Weave) are indeed one and the same, and yet separate components of the greater whole. What happens when the mind fails? The body enters a 'vegetative state', and without outside assistance, will usually start to deteriorate (thus The Weave 'runs amok').
This is how Mirtek & xaeyruudh can both be right.
Yes, and when I said they were both wrong as well, I meant that they were wrong in insisting that their opposing views weren't true. One argued that Mystra isn't magic and one argued that Mystra isn't the Weave.
As a general point, not in response to Markustay... It's important not to fall into the logical trap of saying, well, if Mystra = the Weave and Mystra = Magic, the Weave = Magic. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 15:20:12
The realms may not actually need Mystra but the fans like her so she is returned to the setting. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 14:53:32
Borrowing from RW philosophy, we know that a sentient being (and maybe non-sentients as well) are composed of three major 'selfs' - Body, Mind, and Soul. This translates perfectly in D&D, because upon death we have the mind getting stored in the Astral (IIRC), the soul going on to whatever afterlife it has earned, and the body crumbling (except in the case of undead with physical forms). The body is obviously our anchor to the Prime Material - it is an organic phylactory.
Moving on... Mystra - the one we are most familiar with - is the 'mind', and The Weave is the body. That leaves the Soul... I guess I just figured-out why Mystryl/Mystra needs a human component in each incarnation.
Anyhow, we could say that I - Mark Taylor - am also these three things. All three could said to be 'Mark'. However, that doesn't preclude the notion that all three are also separate things, each with its on 'job' to do to create one whole, living being. Mystra the mind and Mystra the body (The Weave) are indeed one and the same, and yet separate components of the greater whole. What happens when the mind fails? The body enters a 'vegetative state', and without outside assistance, will usually start to deteriorate (thus The Weave 'runs amok').
This is how Mirtek & xaeyruudh can both be right.
One last thing - Lurue is Magic itself - the power that lies beyond The Weave. IF Mystra's Weave is like an electrical grid, then Lurue is the electricity. She is a primal power. I figure I'd provide one last analogy to sort out that last bit of magical 'what's what'. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 07:19:33
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
Specifically in reply to xaeyruudh- I am me and tend and maintain myself all the time. I can only imagine you do too. :)
This calls for a witty observation regarding the (stereotypical) male habit of prioritizing video games (and D&D of course) above self-maintenance. Alas, I am not witty and can't think of a good line. And fortunately, I am an enlightened specimen who bathes daily and moreover is above such base and earthy humor, particularly in polite company. In any case I suppose you could observe that Mystra is not male (surely Elminster would have noticed) and would therefore be better behaved. And I would riposte thus: Mystra just hasn't played any great video games.
Nice reference finds. Upon consideration after my earlier posts, I shy away from equating magic and the Weave. Your sweater might be cashmere, but it's not the case that all cashmere is in your sweater or that sweaters can't be made of other material. Not a great example, but my point is that there has to be more to magic than the Weave, and there must be more to the Weave than just magic, too.
I think the authors of most/all of the sources we're looking at are relying on metaphor (or is it simile?) and linguistic convenience. I would feel most comfortable if magic, the Weave, and Mystra were each separate entities, so that each of them can persist without the others.
This enables Mystra to hear prayers which are uttered in the middle of a magic-dead zone, and the Weave to still exist in that space but be unresponsive to casters due to lacking "juice."
It also enables magic to still exist in the Realms even if the ludicrous myth of Mystra's death and the Weave's dissolution were true.
Of the three, the Weave must be the most vulnerable and magic the most persistent. Mystra can reincarnate herself, or be restored, as long as magic exists in the world.
Just my take on it, based on what seems to need to be true.
And thanks for putting a smile on my face, Emma. |
| Emma Drake |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 06:07:39
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Magic is Mystra, and vice versa.
How so? The weave was just an layer between magic and mortals that allowed mortals to tap into the magic without burning their fingers.
Technically Mystra is nothing but a parasite that wormed it's way between mortals and magic. She is neither magic nor the source of magic, just the gatekeeper that governs access to magic because she just set herself up in this role and mortals are powerless to deny her
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Which is lunacy, because if Mystra were ever truly gone, they would have no power at all (because Mystra is magic).
She's not. She's the weave. But the weave is not magic or the source of magic. The sourcebooks clearly say that the weave is merely a safeguard between the magic and the world.
Wizards can cast just fine when they go where the weave doesn't exist, e.g. the planes or other worlds
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Regarding Mystra being the Weave.
FRCS pg 247: "Essentially, Mystra is the Weave."
This would seem to make your point for you. Except it doesn't.
The word "essentially" would be unnecessary if Mystra was the Weave. They wouldn't waste the 12 characters; it would just say Mystra is the Weave. That might seem like splitting hairs, but Mystra is consistently described as tending/maintaining the Weave rather than being the Weave.
In Bury Elminster Deep, p. 7, Mystra says, " am Mystra, I am magic.
In [i]Elminster Enraged, p. 3, Elminster thinks to himself, "Aye, the shattering of the Weave - of Mystra, who was the Weave - had wrought great change in the Art."
So it would appear that both of you are right and both of you are wrong.
Specifically in reply to xaeyruudh- I am me and tend and maintain myself all the time. I can only imagine you do too. :) |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 19:26:00
First of all it fits the setting! She is part of the whole world. So for me she kind of needs to be there.
Secondly any spell caster would do well in paying homage to her. She will help, guide and comfort those who would seek her guidance. Give items, power and secrets to the most trusted of hers with the only limitations of not destroying magic or anyone who researches magic for magic itself. She is like the opposite of the Catholic Church during the middle-ages who would discourage science... which magic sort of is.
Thirdly A mage can do magic without her, but magic will be safe with her. It will be personal and filled with love. Love from the mother of mysteries. Whenever a mage uses magic he or she touches her, and she touches the spell caster. And that is true magic.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 15:01:07
This topic has been beaten to death, but from previous discussions here, this is how it goes:
Mystra is FOR the furthering of magic, in ALL its forms (even ones that wind-up detrimental to her). Thats 'her thing'. She wants Mages to share their knowledge, to spread magic further, and also achieve 'new heights'. This isn't necessarily an altruistic goal - it furthers her portfolio (and thus her power).
She is NOT, by nature of her portfolio, a 'good' deity. Her 'leanings' in that regard come from the human-half of her personality (and she's had at least three that we are aware of). She tries not to let her personal feelings interfere with the furthering of magic (and her portfolio). Thus, Manshoon is one of her 'favorites'... even if she hates his guts personally.
What she does not tolerate is Mages killing other (up-and-coming) Mages, and hoarding knowledge for themselves - that path normally leads to 'lost lore', which detracts from her portfolio. So although she tries not to be 'good or evil', a problem arises in that its usually evil mages killing wizards and hoarding magic, and its usually 'goodly' mages who open magic schools and try to spread magic further. Thus, she supports 'good' over 'evil' as a by-product of what she is really doing - furthering her own goals (magic).
This is why she will ignore most of what goes on in Thay, and even ordered the Simbul to stop hunting down Red Wizards (unless provoked). So long as the majority of Red Wizards take on apprentices and do magical research (and spread magic further), she does not want them harmed... despite any moral convictions she may have otherwise.
So its not really a 'good vs evil' thing, but rather, it just appears that way a lot of the time because of the nature of mages themselves.
As to whether we should have one - I prefer a more aloof magical deity, but whatever, I'll accept whatever they give us. |
| Krafus |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 14:32:29
Xaeryruudh:
quote:
Ye answered your own question.
Besides barring (most?) mortals from accessing "real power" Mystra will always be seen by overly ambitious casters as a limitation.
Spellcasters who think of Mystra's few restrictions concerning access to the Weave, restrictions in place for the stability/integrity of the Weave and by extension all of Toril, as "unfair limitations" are IMO precisely the sort who should be hunted down and slain as speedily as possible.
Mirtek:
quote:
You mean except for when she did restrict their access and the other deities had to force her to lift the ban?
Could you cite specific examples of this? The one time I can think of is when Mystra (the ascended mortal) unfairly cut off her longtime foe Cyric from the Weave, and restored it at the behest of Ao/the other gods. This goes to show that that Mystra made one mistake and, on one occasion, allowed her feelings to overrule her divine mandate. I'm willing to forgive that one lapse in return for the millennia of Weave stability that Mystryl/Mystra provided.
quote:
Or when her chosen hunt down evil mages who go to far instead of Mystra applauding them for their creative new use of magic even if they had to bread entire villages to use as guinea pigs?
Again, just when did this happen? But in any case, if Mystra deems that a certain new magical creation does indeed go too far and both it and its creator are threats to the Weave that must be removed, then I trust her judgment. Certainly plenty of evil spellcasters, even highly creative and innovative ones like Daurgothoth the Creeping Doom, or who used numerous sentient beings as guinea pigs like the Red Wizards, were allowed by Mystra to go about their business without interference on her part or her Chosen's. Yes, plenty of Red Wizards died at the hands of the Chosen… but that was most often because they'd directly attacked the Chosen. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 10:28:18
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
However, in the books that DO deal with Mystra (mostly the ToT series), it's very clear that she has no qualms about allowing "evil" mages/sorcerers/whatevers to use magic to their heart's content- so long as what they do doesn't harm or endanger the WEAVE. Nothing has ever been said about what they do to other people. She isn't overly FOND of that kind of use of magic, but she doesn't disallow it, either. If she did, there would BE no evil wizards!
True. Also, as I said before, Why do people have a problem with a goddess and (even more so) her chosens having their own personalities? It's what makes them interesting in first place, as with all characters.
I understand that their power could be (too) decisive when it comes to removing threats, but this can be easily fixed , and not by removing or turning them in automatons who only act to repair/prevent Weave damage, w/o any personal goals or choices (really, the Realms are not the RW, this kind of stuff can be changed with ease. Authors can just tone down their prowess in battle, if they're going to feature them in some battles in their stories, and if it is the problem). |
| Venger |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 06:55:11
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Hmm fine, but instead of having a bunch of gods dealing with magic, or azuth and that kin. Do you think we should show a heritage of magic users that have not been under any sort of control and have a rebel god for reckless or not bound by rules god?
How much of a rebel could you possibly be if you trade in worshipping one god of magic for another god of magic? Is this god differentiated from Mystra by wearing a Mohawk and having a "Born To Lose" tattoo? |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 04:29:31
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
That is not what they are doing. Read the Elminster novels. He's more busy stopping evil plots because they are evil and hardly spends any time just preserving magic.
They're Elminster novels, not Mystra novels. They're about Elminster, not about preserving the integrity of the Weave. He has a mind outside of his role as one of Mystra's Chosen. If he didn't, he wouldn't be involved with the Harpers, who (as an overall organization) care very little about magic except as it affects people. He also wouldn't have his tower in Shadowdale... the most pressing reason to be in Shadowdale, as opposed to anywhere else in the Realms is to stop Zhentil Keep (and to a lesser extent other Moonsea cities) from conquering the Dales. Elminster is a nice guy. Most of what he does in the Realms has nothing to do with Mystra... though she (Mystra 2.0 moreso than Midnight) probably watches as often as she can because she has a soft spot for the old fart.
The stories where it looks like he's doing nothing for the advancement of magic... those stories just aren't about the advancement of magic. They're about a guy trying to do good in the world.
Exactly. Those novels (which I HAVE read, BTW) have little to do with Mystra, except perhaps for Elminster in Myth Drannor which WAS about furthering his education in magic- at Mystra's insistence. And those evil plots he's always stopping are usually coming from people who DON'T use magic themselves, even if they have lackeys who do. I seriously doubt most of the rebellious/conspiring nobles in Cormyr are mages. Most of them aren't even much good as fighters! So that point is irrelevant.
However, in the books that DO deal with Mystra (mostly the ToT series), it's very clear that she has no qualms about allowing "evil" mages/sorcerers/whatevers to use magic to their heart's content- so long as what they do doesn't harm or endanger the WEAVE. Nothing has ever been said about what they do to other people. She isn't overly FOND of that kind of use of magic, but she doesn't disallow it, either. If she did, there would BE no evil wizards! |
| Emma Drake |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 04:28:00
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
I think its time we had a male God of magic aka azuth
Any particular reason? |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 03:38:36
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
The spell was designed to allow him to take Mystryl's place.
No, it was designed to temporarily merge with the godess and then being able to wield her power while the spell lasted. The spell would run it's course, the caster would be burned out and the deity herself again. Karsus hoped it would last just long enough to smite the phaerimm. Mystryl chosed to kill herself to end the spell prematurely because Karsus was inept at doing her duties during the merger and the weave was suffering for it.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudhI disagree. If goodness is defined as caring about people's welfare, the opposite (not caring) is evil.
By this logic there can't be neutrality.
Kossuth doesn't care if you start a fire to cook your food or to burn an orphnage
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudhNeutral doesn't mean total apathy.
It should when you the arbiter of a neutral force of nature |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 03:22:08
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
That is not what they are doing. Read the Elminster novels. He's more busy stopping evil plots because they are evil and hardly spends any time just preserving magic.
They're Elminster novels, not Mystra novels. They're about Elminster, not about preserving the integrity of the Weave. He has a mind outside of his role as one of Mystra's Chosen. If he didn't, he wouldn't be involved with the Harpers, who (as an overall organization) care very little about magic except as it affects people. He also wouldn't have his tower in Shadowdale... the most pressing reason to be in Shadowdale, as opposed to anywhere else in the Realms is to stop Zhentil Keep (and to a lesser extent other Moonsea cities) from conquering the Dales. Elminster is a nice guy. Most of what he does in the Realms has nothing to do with Mystra... though she (Mystra 2.0 moreso than Midnight) probably watches as often as she can because she has a soft spot for the old fart.
The stories where it looks like he's doing nothing for the advancement of magic... those stories just aren't about the advancement of magic. They're about a guy trying to do good in the world. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 03:15:22
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
If Mystryl had chosen to just let run KA it's course she would have whethered it just fine, Karsus would be dead but the weave would be too badly damaged.
1. I don't see how you can say that Mystryl would be fine, even though the Weave would be badly damaged... after insisting that Mystra (meaning Mystryl before her) is the Weave.
2. I'm not claiming to be real familiar with the explanation, but the way I read it Karsus died (or "died" depending on how you read it) because his spell worked. The spell was designed to allow him to take Mystryl's place. It worked... he became the god of magic, for the second(s) it took for his mortal body to be overwhelmed. Once he was toasted, Mystryl became Mystra and repaired the Weave. She didn't stop the spell... it did run its course, and afterwards the Weave was fine but Mystryl (version 1.0) was not. This sounds like the opposite of what you're saying.
The point I was getting at in the part that you quoted is that mortals do/did have the power to affect Mystra. I think silverwolfer's observation about the Chosen affecting Mystra is valid; it also supports the idea that mortals are not powerless to defy Mystra.
The other part was just that Mystra did not choose her role. The need for someone to shape magic created a role for her, and she came into being to fill that role. There was no choice involved.
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
However that is exactly what she shouldn't care about wahtsoever. The most heineous spell to bring pain and suffering to the innocent should be as pleasing to her for being a new magic as the most exalted spell to spread joy and happiness
I disagree. If goodness is defined as caring about people's welfare, the opposite (not caring) is evil. Mystra would have to be Evil in order to be equally pleased by genesis and destruction. Neutral doesn't mean total apathy. The average commoner is Neutral, and is not apathetic at all. Commoners care about their neighbors; they're horrified by the idea of torture, and when a neighbor's child dies (regardless of the cause) they grieve. That doesn't make them especially Good; it just means they're not Evil. In our time/place, feeding the homeless at a soup kitchen downtown is good. Neutral is just minding your own business and not hurting anyone. When you see strangers walking down the street, you don't shoot them or run over them with your car... that would be evil.
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
If anything it might be a good thing for magic since such a ruler would turn the wizards of war in his magical gestapo and having them use magic so much more often to spy upon and torture his subjects to keep his rule of terror in line.
Simply using magic a lot doesn't make Mystra happy. Repeated use of the same spells, for good or evil, doesn't build the caster's understanding of magic. And in a torture situation it doesn't prompt anyone new to take up the study of magic, either. And for the record, the War Wizards do make extensive use of magic for spying... just not (at least not openly) for torture.
In general, I agree that Mystra's alignment should be Neutral rather than Good. Goodness and evil both unbalance her and predispose her toward a large group of casters and against another large group. But the only way Mystra would be perfectly okay with magic being used for torture and tyranny is if she were evil... and (for Midnight anyway) that would make no sense. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 02:38:46
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
My mind just clicked, in finders bane it says chosen affect a God as much as a God affects them. Could elimister and the sisters plus Harpers. Dragged mystra from her neutrality to the good side.
No, she's just still Midnight and Midnight was good.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
]No, I believe they mean "too far" as in TOO DANGEROUS.
That is not what they are doing. Read the Elminster novels. He's more busy stopping evil plots because they are evil and hardly spends any time just preserving magic.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis Every time she has had the Chosen step in
Elminster is meddling on a daily basis to save that realm or that. And that is not "saving from a threat to magic itself" but merely "saving from something evil because it's evil and he wants to protect innocents"
In one of the Spellfire novels he gives Storm his "laundry list" of minor evil splots he wants to stop before lunchtime to justify why he can't spend more time aiding Shandril. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 02:33:13
No, I believe they mean "too far" as in TOO DANGEROUS. Every time she has had the Chosen step in, or done it herself, it is because some mortal(s) tried something that was actually harmful to THE WEAVE. As in, damaging the very fabric they were using to cast their spells in the first place. Can we say Karsus, anyone? His spell caused his entire nation to literally FALL from the sky, killing millions. This is NOT conducive to the working of magic by the people who were flattened by his arrogance and recklessness. THAT is what "too far" means. And NO, Mystra doesn't look well on that AT ALL. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 02:07:36
My mind just clicked, in finders bane it says chosen affect a God as much as a God affects them. Could elimister and the sisters plus Harpers. Dragged mystra from her neutrality to the good side.
Now the chosen has gotten solemn and maybe just a bit crazy, could mystra come back a bit damaged and vengeful of cyric and shar like a harpy. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 01:57:45
quote:
quote:
[...]
No, because it's "too far" in as "too unethical". However that is exactly what she shouldn't care about wahtsoever.
The most heineous spell to bring pain and suffering to the innocent should be as pleasing to her for being a new magic as the most exalted spell to spread joy and happiness
[...]
That is when Elminster isn't currently busy to prevent Cormyr from sliding into a tyranny under an evil ruler who would oppress all the innocent, despite having nothing to do with magic. If anything it might be a good thing for magic since such a ruler would turn the wizards of war in his magical gestapo and having them use magic so much more often to spy upon and torture his subjects to keep his rule of terror in line.
I don't see where the problem is. Mystra's chosen have their own goals, besides nurturing magic. They're people, not golems crafted to complete some task with no choice allowed. Are they too powerful, or somthing? Ok, w/e, reduce their power, but they should still be allowed to have their own agenda, like all people do.
About Mystra herself, deities can have personalities (and should have one in order to be interesting) and as long as the Goddess of Magic cannot simply cut someone out of the Weave, I still fail to see the problem (even tho I prefer a Neutral deity of Magic myself). |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 01:55:35
Mystra is a path not the source, while her coming back and fixing the spare spellplauge energy would garner her support, why she never got the same contempt that gond did when she was true neutral confounds me.
Another issue I don't like her as good or evil I do like her as lawful that is it.
I think its time we had a male God of magic aka azuth |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 01:53:12
Mystra is a path not the source, while her coming back and fixing the spare spellplauge energy would garner her support, why she never got the same contempt that gond did when she was true neutral confounds me.
Another issue I don't like her as good or evil I do like her as lawful that is it.
I think its time we had a male God of magic aka azuth |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 01:47:23
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudhShe did not, and Karsus would have a few words to say about powerlessness.
If Mystryl had chosen to just let run KA it's course she would have whethered it just fine, Karsus would be dead but the weave would be too badly damaged.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudhYou're saying she should applaud those who go too far. The definition of going too far is that the person went too far. That means beyond the limit of what's laudable. They have to be stopped.
No, because it's "too far" in as "too unethical". However that is exactly what she shouldn't care about wahtsoever.
The most heineous spell to bring pain and suffering to the innocent should be as pleasing to her for being a new magic as the most exalted spell to spread joy and happiness
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh And since you don't send a commoner to do a Chosen's work, the Chosen do it.
That is when Elminster isn't currently busy to prevent Cormyr from sliding into a tyranny under an evil ruler who would oppress all the innocent, despite having nothing to do with magic. If anything it might be a good thing for magic since such a ruler would turn the wizards of war in his magical gestapo and having them use magic so much more often to spy upon and torture his subjects to keep his rule of terror in line. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 01:44:48
You don't need Mystra for magic or it's users.
What Mystra, when working as her portfolio states, does is make sensible magic easier and/or more wide spread.
Think of Mystra as fast food, to use a cheap and easy example. We all know we can get ingredient, cook them up and eat our meals. However, sometimes we don't have the ingredients or time to make food. So we go to a restaurant where they have the meal cooked up for you without all the time and effort needed.
Mystra aids wizards and spell users in finding the knowledge needed to enhance their magic... while limiting things which would cause Chaos.
If you don't agree with her, you could still use magic (remember Prince of Lies and Crucible were based on the idea Mystra was still thinking more as a human with great power then a god with great responsibility), but you would not worship her. Respect and/or fear her more likely... few would deny her that. The largest number being the fanatical worshipers Shar and Cyric.
Also the Weave is not needed for magic/magic-users, it just makes it easier, more regulated and stable then without it. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 00:47:01
Regarding Mystra being the Weave.
FRCS pg 247: "Essentially, Mystra is the Weave."
This would seem to make your point for you. Except it doesn't.
The word "essentially" would be unnecessary if Mystra was the Weave. They wouldn't waste the 12 characters; it would just say Mystra is the Weave. That might seem like splitting hairs, but Mystra is consistently described as tending/maintaining the Weave rather than being the Weave.
In the sidebar on pg 55: "Humans refer to the entity or awareness that is bound to the Weave of Toril as Mystra."
Also, "Mystra wards the Weave..."
Mystra is not the Weave because it makes no sense to say that she's an awareness bound to herself. Even disregarding semantics, these sentences make it clear that the name Mystra and the word Weave are not wholly synonymous. Close, and maybe they even overlap, but they're not the same things.
I will grant that the language makes it clear that Mystra was not conceived as the substance of magic, either. After all, Selune and Shar were battling each other, using magic, before the creation of Mystra. Both magic and the Weave are in Mystra's portfolio, meaning she represents both of them without literally being either one. I can say Mystra is magic, and you can say Mystra is the Weave, in the same sense that we can say Kossuth is fire. Except I think Mystra is a little more integrated into the world than Kossuth is, but... *shrug* That's a philosophical question without a clear impact on daily life in the Realms.
At the beginning of that sidebar: "Open any three books describing the magic and mage lore of Faerun, and you're apt to find three conflicting accounts of the origins and true nature of magic."
With this in mind, I'm comfortable working with my interpretation and allowing everyone else to have theirs.
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
The weave was just an layer between magic and mortals that allowed mortals to tap into the magic without burning their fingers.
I disagree with the "just" but I agree with the rest; using magic is more foolish without the Weave.
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
she just set herself up in this role and mortals are powerless to deny her
She did not, and Karsus would have a few words to say about powerlessness.
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
when her chosen hunt down evil mages who go to far instead of Mystra applauding them for their creative new use of magic even if they had to bread entire villages to use as guinea pigs?
You're saying she should applaud those who go too far. The definition of going too far is that the person went too far. That means beyond the limit of what's laudable. They have to be stopped. And since you don't send a commoner to do a Chosen's work, the Chosen do it. I don't see a bad part.
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Wizards can cast just fine when they go where the weave doesn't exist, e.g. the planes or other worlds
Irrelevant because other worlds and planes probably have equivalents to the Weave which simply went unnamed because the authors of those settings didn't care to spend time designing or describing them. It probably doesn't say that anywhere, but I haven't seen the opposite stated either, which means the assumption is there to be made. In this case, it's a pretty logical one, so it works for me.
As always, YMMV. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 22 Jun 2013 : 23:57:56
because it violates rule 5 section 36 paragraph 5 of the fantasy worlds: All fantasy worlds that support magic must have deity of magic in some form. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 22 Jun 2013 : 23:43:09
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Magic is Mystra, and vice versa.
How so? The weave was just an layer between magic and mortals that allowed mortals to tap into the magic without burning their fingers.
Technically Mystra is nothing but a parasite that wormed it's way between mortals and magic. She is neither magic nor the source of magic, just the gatekeeper that governs access to magic because she just set herself up in this role and mortals are powerless to deny her
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
evil spellcasters always had unfettered access to the Weave, just like their good counterparts.
You mean except for when she did restrict their access and the other deities had to force her to lift the ban?
Or when her chosen hunt down evil mages who go to far instead of Mystra applauding them for their creative new use of magic even if they had to bread entire villages to use as guinea pigs?
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Which is lunacy, because if Mystra were ever truly gone, they would have no power at all (because Mystra is magic).
She's not. She's the weave. But the weave is not magic or the source of magic. The sourcebooks clearly say that the weave is merely a safeguard between the magic and the world.
Wizards can cast just fine when they go where the weave doesn't exist, e.g. the planes or other worlds |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 22 Jun 2013 : 23:16:46
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
Exactly what are the oh-so-onerous rules that Mystra (either as Mystryl's replacement or later as an ascended mortal) imposed upon arcane spellcasters that one or more of them should feel compelled to rebel against and/or decry her? <snip> Mystra did forbid spells above 9th level from being cast except as epic spells after the fall of Netheril.
Ye answered your own question.
Besides barring (most?) mortals from accessing "real power" Mystra will always be seen by overly ambitious casters as a limitation.
In Netheril, human mages finally stopped studying magic under the guidance of the elves because they felt (rightly or not) that the elves were holding them back. Surely the elves had their reasons for not teaching human mages certain things... just like Mystra has her reasons for keeping certain secrets hidden from the minds who might use them to do harm to the fabric of the world. These are only valid points if the mind considering them is rational and respectful. In those whose ego knows no bounds, they only inspire bitterness and resentment. This is kinda like biting the hand that feeds you, but... such mages are not known for their senses of humor.
There are lots of reasons to dislike Mystra. Lots of ways to recognize a dangerous spellcaster. |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 22 Jun 2013 : 23:02:30
I need Mystra to justify my, ah, biomage experiments. Otherwise, I can't get subjects. :( |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 22 Jun 2013 : 23:01:53
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Hmm fine, but instead of having a bunch of gods dealing with magic, or azuth and that kin. Do you think we should show a heritage of magic users that have not been under any sort of control and have a rebel god for reckless or not bound by rules god?
3e sorcerers, while not loudly touted as rebels, fit this description. They do not follow the rules that wizards do/did, and in my opinion they should have a completely separate spell list from wizards. I think the list of reasons for having wizards and sorcerers cast the same spells is short; it begins with deadlines and ends with WotC's drive to simplify and make everything the same... which is a glorified way of saying laziness. Tangent aside, 3e sorcerers are what you're talking about... once you give them a new spell list.
As far as a god of rebel wizards... wasn't your post aimed at getting away from having a god of magic? Plus, I think part of the nature of rebelling against the rules of wizardry would be refusing to "worship" any god. Like I said, I think all moderately intelligent casters will respect Mystra... but that doesn't mean they have to attend temple services or have anything at all to do with those pesky proselytizing types.
Also, I don't think these rebels will be large in number, for a couple of reasons. The point is that gods depend on having large numbers of worshipers so a small following makes a god impractical. The reasons are all about Mystra. Her return will mean a couple of things. First, the Weave will suddenly be much more manageable; spellcasting will be easier and the results will be far more predictable. The whole world will know that the Weave is once more under control precisely because Mystra has returned. This will win her a lot of respect, among casters of course but also among all who wish to utilize the power and prestige afforded by having constant access to a friendly mage. A second reason is that people like to believe that the gods are listening to them, for good or ill. The existence of a god of magic will always mean that many mages will worship that god in an effort to win her favor.
The only mages who will repudiate Mystra will be the egomaniacs who believe that they can achieve ultimate power without the goddess of magic. Which is lunacy, because if Mystra were ever truly gone, they would have no power at all (because Mystra is magic). However, mortals don't necessarily know/see that, and they may refuse to acknowledge it because that would mean admitting vulnerability and a lack of personal omnipotence.
These hardcore rebels will be few, and the majority of them will probably not get past 10th level or so within their lifetime, though they will believe themselves to be exceedingly powerful. They will always be striving to master the next concept, and will avoid contests with other mages until they can be assured of victory (a time which will never come). They will view "muggles" as warm bodies fit for nothing more than menial labor... but that requires micromanagement which takes away from study time, so they will avoid everyone as much as possible.
Some few, though, will achieve a greater measure of power and become dangerous enemies of more rational civilizations... blazing once more the path of the Netherese.
My opinions; YMMV of course. |
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