| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Jun 2013 : 08:43:41
First of all please dont misunderstand me, this is not an attempt at a flame thread designed to provoke argument. This is meant to open a serious discussion about something of great interest to me.
Now it may be my pessimistic nature but i always like to be prepared should the worst happen. So what if FORGETTEN REALMS DIES.
What i mean is as far as i'm concerned the Forgotten Realms died with 4th edition. Now i dont doubt Ed Greenwoods skill as a world designed, but i dont think even he can manage the epic spell that is "Resurrect Realms".
So should the worst happen and the 5th edition reboot of the Realms fails and WOTC bin the setting, what can we do about it.
My own personal thoughts at the moment are around crowd sourced funding.
Now i dont know anything about legal garbage, but since WOTC owns the licence to the Forgotten Realms im pretty certain nothing can be sold about it without their say so. Also since the Forgotten Realms is owned by them nothing can be released for free that would impact on their sales.
However if they binned the setting i think anyone would be free to release their own fan created sourcebooks about the realms as long as they didnt make any money from it.
Now no one wants to work for free so i was wondering if kickstarter could be used to pay the costs for creating such books.
We have a lot of resources at Candlekeep, i am wondering that should the realms die, would the esteemed sourcebook creators of the past be interested/willing in a kickstarter project to provide them with the funds to create the sourcebooks they always dreamed of doing.
My personal preference is that it all be set around the 1370s since 4th edition shattered the realms, and the fan base, and the lore and i hope most would agree that it destroyed the setting we love (which is why WOTC are trying to rectify their mistake - and still getting it wrong).
I also never really liked that novels decided what happened in the realms. So i like the idea of a return of the arch wizards, i like the idea of the return of an ancient city of miyeritar, i like the idea of a rage of dragons. I dont like being told that khelben is now dead (i might want to use him for something else) i dont like being told that sammaster is dead and some bunch of heroes destroyed the elven mythal.
So the first book, the campaign setting if you will, could be about providing setting details for events in the novels but keeping most of the events as optional with the end result assuming that nothing changed in the realms unless the DM wants it to (that way we DMs dont have to spend ages undoing novel events in our timeline because they occured in "canon" (i hate that word) and now all future sourebooks assume those events happened.
What i mean is detail the environs of the returned city of Miyeritar and how it may affect the realms but assume otherwise that for future books the high moor is the high moor and khelben is still khelben.
I dont know if people like Ed Greenwood, Steven Schend, Eric Boyd, George Krashos, Gray Richardson, Tom Costa, Brian James, Jeff Grubb, and the numerous other brilliant people involved in the Realms in the past would be willing to help resurrect the realms should it die but i would hope so. And i would dearly love to see books like the Arcane Age supplements continued and a sourcebook on dwarven realms and an Impiltur sourcebook released. The only way i can see that happening is through a kickstarter project that if it meets the funding target then it gets produced.
Once produced it could be released freely to all on a website such as candlekeep.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts, for whatever they are worth. |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 12 Jun 2013 : 23:42:23
A lot of things have to fall apart before WotC/Hasbro finds themselves in a position where they have no choice but to allow the release clause take effect. To keep the rights, they have to publish something on the Realms within some specified time frame (a year probably). I'm willing to bet novels count and there is no lack of a market for those.
Even if the novel readership dwindled to nothing, the same modern infrastructure that helps self-publishers will also help WotC. Putting out an ebook or a limited print run with WotC's resources is trivial, especially since it completely circumvents any notion of rights reversion or the potential legal fees to clarify that separation of IP from the company. No, we'll see FR with WotC for some time. I don't expect any IP to slip from WotC any time soon. Same goes for Hasbro, who is finally starting to take action on the D&D movie rights, as an indicator of how they view IP. We're talking about a company that tried to develop Battleship as a movie franchise, they know the value of IP (and perhaps overestimates some of their IP), it's the old contracts and sale of rights holding them up with D&D.
As for a company that would treat the FR setting as well as TSR/WotC, that's actually not as hard to find as one might think. When the Realms were just Dragon articles and had yet to break out as a game setting and novel line, that would be true, but the Realms is a fairly well known property now. All Ed needs to do is license it to companies for specific properties, whether it be RPGs, boardgames, books, video games, movies, other merchandising. It's the same for Star Wars and LotR. Many companies would be interested in getting their chance to publish Realms material.
It would mean Ed would have to hire additional agents (specializing in specific media) or form some sort of company with the right personnel to manage all this. Which may be something he doesn't want to oversee if he wants to spend more time actually writing. If really depends on who he's working with.
While companies like Margaret Weis Publishing would be a good match in terms of friendliness, it's really not up to the scale we're used to seeing for the Realms. They had trouble keeping the Marvel Heroic Roleplaying line in profitable production.
Likewise many of the other game companies don't have the clout, capital, and market share to sustain a product line near the scale FR has experienced for the last 25 years. Only Paizo comes close, but they're doing well because they're focused on one product line, another could stretch them beyond a point of comfortable. They tried to expand into non-Pathfinder related items, such as Planet Stories and stand-alone board games (Titanic Games) with unsteady results. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 14:21:23
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Am going to say something mean ...and I know you folks won't like this...
but Greenwood, is starting to grow a bit old....what happens to Forgotten realms when he dies?
Actually, we're all getting older, and the backfill on us isn't necessarily happening. I'll give the D&D people kudos for one thing though. I've seen more mentions of D&D on sci-fi shows than ever before. Its also a bit more socially acceptable now than it was say 20 years ago, what with so many people playing WoW, Everquest, etc.... The problem now just becomes the same thing that TV is suffering from, that of no captive audience and numerous "channels" all trying to steal "viewers" from each other. D&D would do well to learn from the example... people have fled to pathfinder (I personally like what I've seen of that ruleset). Their best path (as I see it) would be to embrace this and offer lore based options that can work in 3.5e, 4e, pathfinder and D&D-Next rules. I'd also recommend they start publishing rules in the pathfinder and whatever will be their new horse in the race (i.e. D&D-Next). |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 09:32:29
I would donate to Ed's 'Realms Defense Fund' (and yes I am very serious about that).
________________________________________________________________________
Posted by Aldrik:
All that being said, I really do worry about the future of our hobby as a whole. It concerns me that our hobby is so niche that it's difficult for people to make a living off of it, and I have a genuine fear that as we all continue to age that an entirely new generation of people aren't coming in to replace us in sufficient numbers.
I think there are a number of things holding us back, but that may be a side discussion - though potentially very important to the future of the Forgotten Realms.
______________________________________________________________________
This is a discussion we need to have methinks. In reference to both the survival of the Realms and the roleplaying industry as a whole. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 16:34:00
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
My money would be on Paizo snapping up the Realms. Bet we'd get some awesomely done Realms Adventure Paths then.
This was already brught up on the Paizo boards - if (theoretically) the FR brand ever 'went up for sale', would Paizo buy/license it and produce new FR products?
Erik Mona answered with a very firm "NO" - his words were something along the lines of, "we are very happy with the progress we are making with Golarion, and we do not feel the need to divert valuable resources to develop a second setting, which may endanger the current quality and amount of material we are producing for our own setting" (not a direct quote, but pretty damn close, IIRC).
What I meant by 'Ed teaming up with Paizo' is that he himself write the material (or co-author some of it, or at least act as traffic cop/primary editor of FR), and then present a finished product to Paizo - something they could just market immediately with no negative impact on their own (limited) rsources. That means Ed - and anyone he choose to use - would have to do all the editing themselves, and the artwork, layout, etc, etc... a monumental task (but do-able, I think, just because so many folks love Ed and his world). So Paizo would be the publisher... but they wouldn't have any sort of creative input - they'd just slap their logo on it and 'put it out there', so to speak. If it makes money, good for them. If it doesn't, they don't really lose anything (except maybe if they had printed hard-copies of stuff, which would happen if demand was high-enough, which means they would know in-advance if it was worth doing, so that really isn't an issue).
With the internet and computers, ANYONE can self-publish, and the more 'support' (moral and otherwise) a person gets, the better the finished product will be. Ed is one of the few people I think have enough of a 'team' behind him (everyone here, and thousands upon thousands more) that would probably love to help something like this see fruition. A company like Paizo would only give them a larger platform/audience, and give him the ability to publish hard-copies if the need arises. Its really is a win-win (for both Paizo and the fans), but it would be an insane amount of work for a man who already has almost no free time.
And then there are the Hasbro lawyers... I am sure they'd find some sneaky work-around to Ed's contract. For instance, define 'publish' in the modern (post-1987) era? If they let him write an e-Book, they really don't have to care if it sells or not (and perhaps I shouldn't have even said that... although if I thought of it, I am sure a high-paid corporate shyster has as well). |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 15:31:14
As far as the legal situation, all that Hasbro power/money doesn't seem to be doing any good with the movie situation so I wouldn't make the automatic assumption that they could win by burying Ed in a mountain of legal crap.
I also wouldn't assume Hasbro would be inclined to do that. This is the company that has allowed the legal protections (not sure if it is copyright or trademark) the names of Transformers and G.I.Joe characters to lapse because they thought they wouldn't use them ever again, and then they did and had to change their names. This is also the company that has done pretty much nothing to expand the D&D brand despite developing Hollywood connections. I would also add that WotC appears to not even have a booth at GenCon this year from what I was reading on the GenCon forums last night. While I am sure there are reasons that this move makes sense to WotC, I believe they all center around money and that would indicate to me that Hasbro is not a bottomless well of funds for all things D&D. In other words, I don't see Hasbro settling in for a protracted legal battle because while they can outspend Ed, they have to pay their lawyers to bury him and I don't see that as being cheap. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 12:17:08
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Am going to say something mean ...and I know you folks won't like this...
but Greenwood, is starting to grow a bit old....what happens to Forgotten realms when he dies?
FR goes to his heirs.
Xar Zarath as to asking THO or ED, this question has been answered at least to what some of the contract he has says and also he has no desire for WotC or Hasbro breech the Contract and have rights revert back to him.
We do not know all the terms of the contract though one thing reported is Ed must be hired to write one novel a year or accept payment from WotC not to write one novel for a specific year. It would appear that payment not to write is not a set amount that would have to be negotiated, however that is not certain.
The other thing we have been told about the contract is Ed's words are canon concerning the Realms unless FR printed material changes the canon.
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 10:12:17
^Np, we'll just clone him to keep getting juicy realmslore. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 09:04:22
Am going to say something mean ...and I know you folks won't like this...
but Greenwood, is starting to grow a bit old....what happens to Forgotten realms when he dies? |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 08:07:22
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Despite contracts, I don't see the rights of the setting reverting back to Ed. If WotC went under and closed up shop for good, and the FR was left to simply languish without new content or support - Hasbro would still protect their IP. Thus, if Ed wanted to do anything with FR he'd have to deal with Hasbro lawyers. That's not to say he couldn't potentially win, but Ed doesn't have the type of resources to fight back.
That's the thing -- with no new content or support, it's no longer their IP. It doesn't matter how much more legal power they can muster -- the contract still says "print something or it goes back". Something simple like that, there are plenty of lawyers who would take the case with the condition they'd only get paid if they -- and then they'd ask for WotC to pay their fees when WotC loses.
That is not how I imagine it'll go. If WotC closes up shop then Hasbro owns all the IP's. Then let's say Ed assumes that he now has ownership of the Realms once again, and attempts to establish a Kickstarter to publish a new FRCS. Hasbro finds out, and they send him a Cease and Desist letter.
Now, Ed has two choices. He can either choose to ignore it, and move ahead anyway or to take them to court. Let's say he decides to ignore them.
Okay, Hasbro decides to sue Ed for copyright infringement. This means Ed is going to have to hire a lawyer, which is not a cheap thing to do. So, he shows up and waves his contract around. Hasbro shrugs indifferently, and it goes to court. Let's assume Ed wins. This is great news right? Well, Hasbro appeals the ruling. That's more lawyer fees for Ed...
...this cycle continues trapping the Realms in legal limbo for nearly a decade. Ed ends up financially ruined as a result of the lawyers fees, and thus even if he ultimately wins he ends up getting screwed.
The thing is a company like Hasbro has an invested interest in protecting their IP's. They may not have an intention to use them at any one time, but they want to reserve them for the future potential use.
I simply can't picture a situation where Hasbro allows the Realms to default to Ed. Whatever contract Ed has is only as good as his ability to defend it. Hasbro knows that, and thus will steam roll him if they want to hold onto that IP. Thus, I think the best thing that could happen if WotC is going under is for them to sell the Realms IP to another company that will support it.
Maybe other people expect Hasbro to deal with Ed and other people in good faith. I don't.  |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 06:31:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If they failed to publish Realms material and the IP reverted to Ed, they'd not be able to do much -- it was a legal agreement, and failure to adhere to that would be their own issue.
In my opinion if WotC saw value in shelving the Realms then I don't think any agreement, however legal, would be enough to stop them from holding the IP.
They (WotC) would have all their resources, plus possibly Hasbro's, to make their case and they could challenge in court. Call me a pessimist, but I think they'd win.
One avenue they might explore is continued licensing to third parties to create video games in the Realms or allowing websites to sell PDF reprints. I think they could make a case that either of those counts as "publishing" and thus hold on to the IP indefinitely.
I'm curious what the mechanics are for an IP to revert to someone from someone else.
Is there a specific time frame? Who gets to decide how long? A judge? Is their precedent or is there specific language in the contract between Ed and TSR? |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 05:56:07
Would it not be better to get a feedback from Ed himself or even THO? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 05:02:03
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Despite contracts, I don't see the rights of the setting reverting back to Ed. If WotC went under and closed up shop for good, and the FR was left to simply languish without new content or support - Hasbro would still protect their IP. Thus, if Ed wanted to do anything with FR he'd have to deal with Hasbro lawyers. That's not to say he couldn't potentially win, but Ed doesn't have the type of resources to fight back.
That's the thing -- with no new content or support, it's no longer their IP. It doesn't matter how much more legal power they can muster -- the contract still says "print something or it goes back". Something simple like that, there are plenty of lawyers who would take the case with the condition they'd only get paid if they -- and then they'd ask for WotC to pay their fees when WotC loses. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 03:28:06
Despite contracts, I don't see the rights of the setting reverting back to Ed. If WotC went under and closed up shop for good, and the FR was left to simply languish without new content or support - Hasbro would still protect their IP. Thus, if Ed wanted to do anything with FR he'd have to deal with Hasbro lawyers. That's not to say he couldn't potentially win, but Ed doesn't have the type of resources to fight back.
My personal preference would be for WotC / Hasbro to relinquish the IP to another company that genuinely cared for the setting and could continue to offer it support. Even if it fell back into Ed's hands, I really feel that the Realms is too big for a single person to manage effectively. The Realms requires a team of people to manage it, and I think the setting benefits from having a broader and more collective input (most of the time).
I think Ed would agree with that - it's also the best way to ensure that the Realms continues on long after Ed himself (and us!) are gone. I like to believe that the Realms will continue so long as there are people out there who love the setting, and want to either tell their own stories or read the stories written by others. I like to think that the Realms is bigger than any one individual, and that it will outlive us all.
All that being said, I really do worry about the future of our hobby as a whole. It concerns me that our hobby is so niche that it's difficult for people to make a living off of it, and I have a genuine fear that as we all continue to age that an entirely new generation of people aren't coming in to replace us in sufficient numbers.
I think there are a number of things holding us back, but that may be a side discussion - though potentially very important to the future of the Forgotten Realms. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 02:40:26
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Let's not make too much of the concept of the Realms reverting to Ed. The man is brilliant, driven, and open-minded, but he does not possess the infrastructure or capital to continue to publish sourcebooks and novels himself. That's why he signed with TSR in the first place--to set his vision on a wider stage. If WotC dropped the Realms and it reverted to Ed, he would be under pressure to sell it somewhere else, and probably not under the same favorable terms as his TSR/WotC contract.
Also, if D&D-Next doesn't turn out to be a success and D&D sinks beneath the surface, it's more likely Hasbro will shelve the property and continue making money on its non-pen-and-paper-RPG derivatives, such as the (admittedly awesome) Lords of Waterdeep board game, the Neverwinter CRPG, etc.
I'm concerned about this "all I hear about are uber-munchkins" thing that MT is mentioning. That's not my experience with the 4e Realms at all, but I guess there is less of an emphasis in FR on extremely low-power "I just wandered out of my backyard and became an adventurer" sorts of stories. I suppose the nearest parallel is the Knights of Myth Drannor series, but there was plenty of high-octane magic/action in those books, so I'm not really sure what we're supposed to be nostalgic about.
Cheers
My money would be on Paizo snapping up the Realms. Bet we'd get some awesomely done Realms Adventure Paths then. :) |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 02:01:23
The Realms IP clearly is a matter of contract and law. Forgotten Realms and all of its IP is licensed (sold to TSR with revision provision back to Ed if certain terms not met each year) to TSR, WotC and Hasbro only have the rights TSR purchased as long as they adhere to the Contract made with Ed.
Should there be a breach of contract everything with a Forgotten Realm Logo it clearly would appear to have to have rights revert back to Ed. The computer game rights sold for Never Winter, Pools of Radiance and so on would become no longer legal to use , let alone sell.
After all these years having a shared world revert to one person and have it viable will not work. A perfect play field for attorneys about the rights they purchased from TSR as well.
Should the TSR and Ed's contract be breached, with all the spin offs it could be 10 to 20 years of litigation with few FR products produced. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 01:17:54
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
I am certainly in a minority here in that I wouldn't welcome the realms reverting back to Ed. He laid out a superb groundwork, but frankly, from what I read here and there about "his" realms I don't like them nearly as much as the amalgan the published realms have become.
I'm not saying I want that, either -- I'm just pointing out that it is the terms of the original agreement. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 01:16:18
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
WotC being WotC and Hasbro being Hasbro, I don't think they would look too kindly on Greenwood or anyone else--particularly Candlekeep--attempting to publish Realms products or otherwise take over the setting, regardless of the original agreement between Ed and TSR.
If they failed to publish Realms material and the IP reverted to Ed, they'd not be able to do much -- it was a legal agreement, and failure to adhere to that would be their own issue. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 00:40:35
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
[...]However if they binned the setting i think anyone would be free to release their own fan created sourcebooks about the realms as long as they didnt make any money from it.
[...]
Once produced it could be released freely to all on a website such as candlekeep.
No. That's a common misconception that ended in many a mod being shut down (most of the time after a lot of passion and work was already put into them).
Just because you make no money from it still doesn't allow you to use the intellectual property of someone else.
While quite a view companies turn a blind eye to such projects, others do not.
Even the first cases are always under the risk that the company owning the rights can pull their plug any time they change their mind
I am certainly in a minority here in that I wouldn't welcome the realms reverting back to Ed. He laid out a superb groundwork, but frankly, from what I read here and there about "his" realms I don't like them nearly as much as the amalgan the published realms have become.
From what I read things I like most about the current FR didn't seem to have sit that well with Ed and many didn't ever happen in his home realms to a point where I think I personally wouldn't enjoy Ed's pure vision of the realms.
So I hope that the realms continue with a big company and a whole host of contributors even if Ed himself doesn't always like everything that others contribute to the published realms.
For me it's a case where Too many cooks enrich the broth |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 00:27:30
Business these days is all about taking a popular IP and then licensing it out to other people therefore I don't see Wizbro shelving the Realms as long as someone is willing to make content for it. Whether that be Ed, Paizo, Bioware or some other game developer. |
| Caladan Brood |
Posted - 07 Jun 2013 : 20:32:23
Honestly it's not a huge deal for me what happens with the Realms in 5E. I will give it a glance out of curiosity but I haven't followed anything Realms since well 2nd edition. Now, I've had a very very long break from AD&D/Realms and only recently returned to find myself enchanted by the Realms, so for me there is still so much to discover and get a grip on. I am collecting all the material made for 2nd edition and find myself having more than enough material to run more games in the Realms than I can ever hope to run.
Since I've kind of gotten the bug over the last half year or so, I will follow the development with some interest but I'm thinking, I'm happy with Forgotten Realms 2nd edition campaign setting, and even that is confusing enough with all these events, timelines, countless characters and organizations, politics, huge pantheon etc. Just saying, whatever happens...but maybe like some of you there will come a day where i want more, and won't get it. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 07 Jun 2013 : 19:32:24
The only possible future that troubles me is the one in which WotC fails but doesn't die, ceasing their development of the setting but retaining control of the Realms copyrights. There are probably plenty of ways for them to keep the publishing rights, in spite of any agreement with Ed, without working on the setting. (I'm no lawyer, but what would happen if they simply never announced a formal decision to no longer develop/publish the Realms?) This would basically put the Realms in the same limbo with Mystara, Al-Qadim, Spelljammer, and the dozen or more other settings they've given up on -- totally resurrectable, but locked up. I agree with Jeremy's assessment that this possibility would be terribad in multiple ways.
However, even this bleak possible future isn't the end of the Realms. We're still here, and "fair use" or whatever it's called still exists. The Realms will be growing in fans' minds, and being shared and developed in this space, long after WotC has gone the way of the dodo.
If the stars ever aligned so that full control of the Realms reverted to Ed... that would not be a dark or undesirable thing. As Wooly points out, Ed has friends who may/would be eager to have a hand in holding the Realms aloft. Even if those possibilities didn't work out, we the fans and individual authors and designers would build a new publishing company, and plenty of us would work for free or close to it. The body of Realms fans has the ability to generate awesome lore, keep an ever-vigilant eye on consistency and playability, and publish high-quality products. We have more respect for Ed and his lore than WotC ever has, meaning that a fan-managed company would potentially shape a setting far more awesome than what we've seen so far. And we certainly don't have a shortage of playtesters, just to make sure that it works in practice for a wide variety of gamers. All the wins in this scenario come together to make it a pretty desirable outcome in my book. Rocky yes... but full of win. The degree to which WotC can mirror/mimic this outcome will determine their success, imo. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 07 Jun 2013 : 18:09:27
If D&D Next fails, then that will suck for the Realms.
WotC being WotC and Hasbro being Hasbro, I don't think they would look too kindly on Greenwood or anyone else--particularly Candlekeep--attempting to publish Realms products or otherwise take over the setting, regardless of the original agreement between Ed and TSR.
If D&D gets shelved ("binned" as you say) then expect the gaming side of the Realms to get shelved right along with it.
There might be a chance for more Realms novels, however, but I'd expect these to be few, to be divorced from cannon and not edited very well with respect to Realmslore.
In fact, I'd imagine such novels to be little more than novelizations of story arc content from Realms video games. They (WotC) would probably manage third party agreements to continue Realms video games, let those third parties decide the future of the Realms in terms of what's best for creating video games, print some novels and call it a day.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The nostalgia is for the layer upon layer of history and lore that used to be present in the Realms.
The "layer upon layer of history and lore" is still there, ready and waiting to be accessed, right along with hundreds of small guy NPCs every bit as interesting as those who came before them. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Jun 2013 : 16:59:30
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Let's not make too much of the concept of the Realms reverting to Ed. The man is brilliant, driven, and open-minded, but he does not possess the infrastructure or capital to continue to publish sourcebooks and novels himself. That's why he signed with TSR in the first place--to set his vision on a wider stage. If WotC dropped the Realms and it reverted to Ed, he would be under pressure to sell it somewhere else, and probably not under the same favorable terms as his TSR/WotC contract.
Oh, I understand all this -- I was just pointing out that WotC ending publication of Realms material would not necessarily mean the end of the published setting. While Ed would have to sell it again, in order for anything to be published, there is the possibility that it would be picked up by a company that would give Ed favorable terms -- Margaret Weis's company, perhaps.
So my point was basically that the fate of the published Realms was not wholly dependent on the publisher of D&D. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 07 Jun 2013 : 16:36:07
Go take a look at plane scape to see whathappens to dead things. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Jun 2013 : 16:04:56
The nosalgia is for the layer upon layer of history and lore that used to be present in the realms.
I remember when i first started dnd i read a sourcebook on the dalelands about a dragon battle involving a blue dragon that descended from the skies and tore the wings off its opponent. Years later i was reading a gem of a book; The Cult of the Dragon, and i got to a section about a shadow dragon dracolich that took to masquerading as a blue dragon and that in one of these guises she had killed an opponent by tearing his wings off. She did this to steal his treasure and draw attention to some other dragon i believe.
I was amazed at remembering the passage from an old lore book and the plots involved. Other such marvellous interwoven plot threads appeared all through 2nd edition and through 3rd edition. Its this kind of connection and detail that cannot be recovered because it took 30 years or more to create in the first place.
Now that i think about it more, WOTC's whole model for selling is completely wrong. The focus on generic books that will appeal to what they think people want and are intimately tied to rule editions doesnt appear to work anymore. It inevitably means they run out of ideas for each edition after only a few years (anyone remember Complete Adventurer). Once the rulebooks stop then the edition is over and it applies to the settings using that edition (what happened to Eberron).
So 3rd edition lasted less than 10 years, 4th edition less than 5, 5th edition will probably last less than 3.
Kickstarter makes perfect sense, let the customer pick which books they want to be produced. So you could create projects for a Dwarves Deep remake, an Arcane Age Tethyamar, a Moonshae sourcebook etc etc (im just thinking of examples i would want to see). The project that reaches its funding target first wins and gets produced.
I dont think resource and infrastructure are a problem anymore. I have seen a series of books on Phasai made by a member of Candlekeep that were very well finished and they were made by one person as far as i know. Distributing pdf's is easy with the internet. And if the designers were paid using the kickstarter funds then there is no need to sell the works they could be distributed for free.
The internet brings great freedom and pooling of resources to surmount almost any problem. I reckon most of the people on these forums have any number of skills that could aid in such a venture. Markustay for instance produces excellent maps that i use in preference over WOTC maps. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 07 Jun 2013 : 15:32:34
Let's not make too much of the concept of the Realms reverting to Ed. The man is brilliant, driven, and open-minded, but he does not possess the infrastructure or capital to continue to publish sourcebooks and novels himself. That's why he signed with TSR in the first place--to set his vision on a wider stage. If WotC dropped the Realms and it reverted to Ed, he would be under pressure to sell it somewhere else, and probably not under the same favorable terms as his TSR/WotC contract.
Also, if D&D-Next doesn't turn out to be a success and D&D sinks beneath the surface, it's more likely Hasbro will shelve the property and continue making money on its non-pen-and-paper-RPG derivatives, such as the (admittedly awesome) Lords of Waterdeep board game, the Neverwinter CRPG, etc.
I'm concerned about this "all I hear about are uber-munchkins" thing that MT is mentioning. That's not my experience with the 4e Realms at all, but I guess there is less of an emphasis in FR on extremely low-power "I just wandered out of my backyard and became an adventurer" sorts of stories. I suppose the nearest parallel is the Knights of Myth Drannor series, but there was plenty of high-octane magic/action in those books, so I'm not really sure what we're supposed to be nostalgic about.
Cheers |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Jun 2013 : 13:47:59
Which puts them in an interesting situation. What would be financially better for them? To continue to publish books for a 'failed setting' (and loose money), or allow one of their (once) most prosperous IPs to revert back to its creator?
I think a lot of this depends upon whether D&D itself dies. If D&D stays afloat, it can carry a crippled FR... at least enough for them to publish a book every year by Ed. If D&D itself goes down the tubes, they 'might' consider just washing their hands of the whole thing. Its not like they've done anything else with the IP since obtaining it (cartoons, a D&D toy line, etc... so many opportunities missed!) Now that they found out they don't even own their own movie rights, the lawyers might just say 'screw it'.
At that point, however, I am not sure what would be the 'best thing' for The Realms. Should Ed try to self-publish (with his own rules system), or partner with another powerhouse (like Paizo)? An Ed-only company sounds ideal... but unrealistic. Paizo has the chops to make it great again, but that means marrying FR to the PF system (which isn't a bad thing... I'd just prefer a propriety system for FR).
Now, as for it dying... I thought much the same thing about Star Trek. When I heard they were going to reboot the continuity I thought it was going to be garbage... but I was pleasantly surprised. If WotC and/or Ed were to go that route it could go either way, and even if it proved a whopping success (as Star Trek did), it doesn't mean they won't still drop the ball (because I felt the 2nd ST movie was a let-down from the first). I know they have the best of intentions...
Unfortunately, we all know about 'the road to good intentions'. While they claim they want that 'old grey box feel', they also continue to promote novels about god-smacking characters who are 'larger then life'. Thats certainly not what got me into The Realms - it was the Innkeeper's family, and farmer Bhab, and that thief in Arabel, etc, etc... it was the common, every day folk that brought it all to life for me. They all had their own, interesting stories; those 'unwashed masses' are what they killed-off in 4e, and there really is no way to bring them back (other then a complete reboot). Now all I hear about are uber-munchkins. I want a setting where I can start-out a party at first level and it not be laughable. That's NOT the setting I see in novels.
I really don't think you can have it both ways. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Jun 2013 : 13:33:02
Well that is good news |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Jun 2013 : 12:55:15
Per the original agreement, if WotC stopped publishing FR material and novels, then the rights would revert to Ed. |
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