| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 06 Jun 2013 : 09:45:06
In Menzoberranzan City of Intrigue I was surprised to see this entry in regards to who rules in a Drow Noble House in Menzo: "...usually daughters since any siblings of an ascendent matron lose their noble status and are typically assassinated soon after..."
Is this supported by other works or is it new to this book?
Do you all support this idea?
This would make sense in so far as it would prevent children from ganging up on a mother. (Why would you work together to overthrow your mother if you'll then be put out or even killed?) It would also explain why matron mothers usually don't have described siblings. (Although the Nasadra twins of Ched Nasad obviously both survived, do males not count?)
The fact that Triel had many surviving siblings seems to contradict this. But then she had no children of her own, obviously, which maybe changed the situation? I feel like there are other counter examples but I can't think of them now (and perhaps any counterexamples were mistakes by authors not in the know about this rule...?) But if that were the case then why was it never mentioned? Also then what would be to stop sisters of a Matron from finding a way of killing any of their sisters' offspring? |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| jerrod |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 23:34:31
In response to the issue of fertility amoung the drow,it is writen in drow of ghe underdark that drow tend to be more fertile fhan other subraces of elves. I also read in the quintessitial drow handbook of magical incubator and sorrogate that house the unborn drowlings til they are born.some even carrying multible infants,wbile the mother goes adventuring or pursueing her chosen fields of intrest.Beanre would be old enough and powerful enough to have access to these methods of reproduction.as long as the female can concieve they have ways of bringing babies to turm. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 00:38:40
Less detailed drow cities and societies could have very different social structures. I would not want to assume every drow city is the same as Menzoberranzan. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 22:18:43
sorry double post. :( |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 22:17:53
House Dhuurniv from Maerimydra was ruled by three sisters after their mother, Matron Laele was killed. With their involvement in the Fall of Myth Drannor and the construction of the Twisted Tower, this is one dark elf family I would love to see more lore on. In fact, I'd almost say this dark elf family would be more famous or infamous than House Baenre. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 01 Jul 2013 : 09:37:26
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
House Horlbar (according to the Menzo BS, no updates):
Kerl Horlbar (female drow, P13) co. Matron Mother
Jerlys Horlbar (female drow, P13) co. Matron Mother
There was an update of a sort on Jerlys... In R.A. Salvatore's Starless Night novel. For whatever reason, Jerlys was in one of the poorer areas of Menzoberranzan when she met an unhappy Artemis Entreri, and decided to have a bit of fun with the lowly human. It didn't end well at all for Jerlys.
Yep, I did not include whether people were killed, unless it really was(is common knowledge (i.e. told in open-access sourcebooks). Not wanting to spoil too many novels. I used to keep a seperate list with all the fates of the respective drow NPCs. |
| Krafus |
Posted - 30 Jun 2013 : 23:56:24
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
House Horlbar (according to the Menzo BS, no updates):
Kerl Horlbar (female drow, P13) co. Matron Mother
Jerlys Horlbar (female drow, P13) co. Matron Mother
There was an update of a sort on Jerlys... In R.A. Salvatore's Starless Night novel. For whatever reason, Jerlys was in one of the poorer areas of Menzoberranzan when she met an unhappy Artemis Entreri, and decided to have a bit of fun with the lowly human. It didn't end well at all for Jerlys. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Jun 2013 : 13:11:47
Haven't read-through the entire thread, but here's my take...
"Rules are made to be broken"
In other words, what you read there is a rule-of-thumb, and thats normally 'how it all goes down', but one could probably find numerous examples to the contrary.
I really like your reasoning about the 'why' of it all - that siblings wouldn't work together, knowing the most powerful amongst them will just have the rest killed. That has Drow written all over it. In fact, the weakest among them would probably run right to their mother if they suspected something (a definite Drow survival technique). |
| Zanan |
Posted - 30 Jun 2013 : 12:23:20
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Horlbar had twin matrons. Horlbar and Kenafin became House Melarn
Indeed ...
House Horlbar (according to the Menzo BS, no updates):
Kerl Horlbar (female drow, P13) co. Matron Mother
Jerlys Horlbar (female drow, P13) co. Matron Mother
A list of the drow NPCs of the Realms around Spellplague-time can be found here http://www.dnd-gate.de/gate3/page/index.php?id=420. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 28 Jun 2013 : 01:06:05
Doesn't make sense to me either, unless those Houses are secret Eilistraeans, which still doesn't make sense, since she's dead. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 09:38:27
quote:
I was unaware of this happening. What source is it from? LP is the last I've read/heard of House Melarn, so is it more recent? And why would those Houses join/combine with it? That doesn't seem to make sense.
Menzoberranzan 4e. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 03:39:59
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Are you sure about that? Melarn was originally a Ched Nasad house, and Kenafin and Horlbar were bott from Menzo. How could they have "become" a (canonically) much older house? MElarn was around pre-Descent. I doubt those two are that old.
It was a bad idea all around. Survivors of Melarn should have simply helped rebuild Ched Nasad. And I think you have the right of it, you can't just claim to be a different drow noble house. Quenthel has been mentioned to be looking for a reason to destroy the house, so hopefully for 5E, it's gone from Menzo.
As much as I like reading about the drow, I'm completely fine reading about their workings through novels as we already have enough Menzo supplements. It's too bad they didn't detail out Gauntlgrym's drow hold or better yet do a book on Ched Nasad, Guallidurth or any other number of drow cities instead.
It'd be nice if for 5E, wizards would release little mini-books that detail one city at a time or something. 30 to 40 pages for a town etc. Could most likely cover alot of cities that wouldn't support a full blown supplement.
I was unaware of this happening. What source is it from? LP is the last I've read/heard of House Melarn, so is it more recent? And why would those Houses join/combine with it? That doesn't seem to make sense. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 03:24:37
Oh, I didn't know anyone was talking about homebrew. Eilserus mentioned mini-books of details, and then you mentioned descriptions. I assumed that you both were talking about canonical details--not completely made-up ones. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 02:16:02
I think putting homebrew information on the wiki would confuse people. And would people be able to then edit your ideas? A wiki doesn't seem like the proper medium for that. Although the setup/layout of the website would be good. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 03:58:52
Well, yeah--there's already the FR Wiki, right? You can contribute to make something like that as comprehensive as possible.
And fans can always write fanfic, right? Is there any problem with writing fanfic reference material, too?
What are the relevant restrictions of the OGL agreement, regarding this? |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 01:42:52
People could write their own descriptions of cities then put them on a blog or something?
The name "Melarn" is not necessarily unique. It is a prefix-suffix name construction. Mel = Mothers of + arn = fire. But they adopted the name after merging with refugees from Ched Nasad who were of House Melarn in honour of Halisstra. |
| Matt James |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 23:51:03
Won't happen. WotC would not recoup the money spent on designing and developing those kinds of books/supplements. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 19:49:17
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Are you sure about that? Melarn was originally a Ched Nasad house, and Kenafin and Horlbar were bott from Menzo. How could they have "become" a (canonically) much older house? MElarn was around pre-Descent. I doubt those two are that old.
It was a bad idea all around. Survivors of Melarn should have simply helped rebuild Ched Nasad. And I think you have the right of it, you can't just claim to be a different drow noble house. Quenthel has been mentioned to be looking for a reason to destroy the house, so hopefully for 5E, it's gone from Menzo.
As much as I like reading about the drow, I'm completely fine reading about their workings through novels as we already have enough Menzo supplements. It's too bad they didn't detail out Gauntlgrym's drow hold or better yet do a book on Ched Nasad, Guallidurth or any other number of drow cities instead.
It'd be nice if for 5E, wizards would release little mini-books that detail one city at a time or something. 30 to 40 pages for a town etc. Could most likely cover alot of cities that wouldn't support a full blown supplement. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 18:21:34
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Are you sure about that? Melarn was originally a Ched Nasad house, and Kenafin and Horlbar were bott from Menzo. How could they have "become" a (canonically) much older house? MElarn was around pre-Descent. I doubt those two are that old.
Horlbar and Kenafin simply adopted the name to honor Lady Penitent... |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 04:04:34
Are you sure about that? Melarn was originally a Ched Nasad house, and Kenafin and Horlbar were bott from Menzo. How could they have "become" a (canonically) much older house? MElarn was around pre-Descent. I doubt those two are that old. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 20:21:33
Horlbar had twin matrons. Horlbar and Kenafin became House Melarn |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 18:17:03
I was thinking maybe it was Faen T'labbar? I'd look it up, but Beast will probably answer before I could find it. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 18:14:46
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
Wasn't there a noble house headed by twin sisters?
There was, and the tradition was kept by another house in 4e. Can't remember the name of the first nor the second, sorry.  |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 17:32:48
Wasn't there a noble house headed by twin sisters?
I believe that all Triels siblings held important positions in the city: Arch Mage, Mistress of Arach Tinilith, one ran the library...etc. That may be why they were allowed to live. Of course, Triel paid for the mistake of allowing Quenthel to live. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 06:23:42
I think I prefer the idea that she actually had many, many children. 21 is not an impossible amount humans with much shorter lifespans used to have that many children regularly! (my great grand-mother was one of 22 children) It also feeds into the idea of the Matron Mother really being the mother of her underlings. That is just a personal preference, though.
I'd be interested in seeing family trees of Drow families. Although that might put authors on the spot who have not really thought it through to that extent. Like Halisstra Melarn talked about remembering her relative who worshiped Eilistraee had been burned from the tree.
I was also thinking of how there are members of the Mizzrym family who live far away (Zhentil Keep and Sulasspryn) who presumably are not counted amongst the nobles. I wonder how many relatives leave the city (or other drow cities) like that to set themselves elsewhere. And are drow houses that have the same name just using similar prefix-suffixes or are they branches of each other? (Such as Despana, Godeep, and Oustyll) |
| BEAST |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 05:23:19
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Although Drow are generally less fertile presumably high priestesses can remedy that with magic (as it is implied Yvonnel did, right?)
Yep, I think you've got it exactly right.
Somehow, she survived multiple instances of the Zin-carla ritual, as well. The ol' girl really knew her stuff!
quote:
Nauzhror Baenre is a cousin, too, right? So presumably the child of one of Yvonnel's siblings?
Or one of her nephews, which would make him a more distant cousin of Triel's ("once removed", or something).
quote:
But perhaps House Baenre has more clout as first house to keep people in the family rather than joining lesser houses.
This is absolutely certain. In Homeland, when House Teken'duis was punished for failing to destroy House Freth, Matron Baenre took the surviving Freth noble children in to become new Baenre nobles. This was despite the fact that, initially, grandchildren were not considered nobles, while only children of matron mothers were. Matron Malice considered Baenre to be walking a fine line between following tradition and vainglory.
And yet, Matron Baenre lived for some thirty more years after this event, so 'twould seem that she completely got away with it.
quote:
(Did one, or more, of Yvonnel's siblings form a lesser house but the "cousins" chose not to join their own mother? Or did a sister die but her children stayed nobles in the family?)
Either of those might've been the case.
Somehow, I see Matron Baenre maybe bribing someone to kill off some of her daughters (or bribing her nieces and nephews to assassinate their own mothers!), so she could offer the orphaned grandchildren a way to rejoin the main Baenre household. Let her daughters do the hard work of birthing them and raising them, and then cull the weak ones and acquire the strong ones.
If so, that might explain some of those 21 children that she supposedly had. Some of them might not have actually been her own birth children, but rather her re-acquired grandchildren (or nieces or nephews).
quote:
Would extended family members work with their family despite not being considered true nobles? I think in WOTSQ someone describes a family member as from "some lesser branch of the family" although they still worked for the house.
As long as the matron mother can maintain rule over the household, then she can allow her family to grow as large as she dare.
Most have a healthy degree of fear and anxiety about uppity kin, though, so apparently there's a built-in sociological deterrent to having large families (regardless of the particular biology of drow). |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 22 Jun 2013 : 21:38:22
I always ran with the impression that due to Matron Baenre's "special" relationship with Lolth and the Spider Queen's wish for the Baenre clan to remain in control of Menzoberranzan was the reason for her large brood of children. By all accounts, due to her age, she shouldn't have been able to have any more children. I think it even mentioned in Homeland that Matron Malice, who was closing on 6 centuries of life and that Drizzt had been a surprise and doubted she'd have any more children. I've always been curious as to what her "special" relationship entailed or if it just meant the Baenre were favored over all others. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 22 Jun 2013 : 19:18:41
I guess when you live for hundreds of years there is a lot more time to give birth! Although Drow are generally less fertile presumably high priestesses can remedy that with magic (as it is implied Yvonnel did, right?)
Nauzhror Baenre is a cousin, too, right? So presumably the child of one of Yvonnel's siblings? But perhaps House Baenre has more clout as first house to keep people in the family rather than joining lesser houses. (Did one, or more, of Yvonnel's siblings form a lesser house but the "cousins" chose not to join their own mother? Or did a sister die but her children stayed nobles in the family?) Would extended family members work with their family despite not being considered true nobles? I think in WOTSQ someone describes a family member as from "some lesser branch of the family" although they still worked for the house. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 21 Jun 2013 : 19:21:45
One more snippet from AD&D Menzo:
A NOTE ON NOBLES: In the #8220;Dark Elf Trilogy#8221;, nobles were described as the Matron Mother and her immediate family, her children only, though sometimes extended to include a favored patron. For purposes of this book, the description has been expanded to include the extended family, the Matron#8217;s grandchildren, her great-grandchildren, and in some cases, her great-great-grandchildren. Only the immediate family, though, may bear witness against an aggressor house. Here, then, are the 18 most important houses forming the loose law within the raging chaos of drow society.
Most novels went with the Dark Elf Trilogy interpretation. I think it wasn't until Andzrel and Waerva Baenre (WotSQ) that we saw siblings and other non-immediate relations as nobles.
As of Ghenni the second's rule (WotSQ, too) she has one heck of a lot of siblings, as Ghenni the elder was stated to have had 22 children (5 dead per Menzo, 8 dead per WotSQ if my calculations are correct). |
| BEAST |
Posted - 07 Jun 2013 : 05:31:01
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
In Menzoberranzan City of Intrigue I was surprised to see this entry in regards to who rules in a Drow Noble House in Menzo: "...usually daughters since any siblings of an ascendent matron lose their noble status and are typically assassinated soon after..."
Is this supported by other works or is it new to this book?
No, it has never been said before in other works, to the best of my knowledge. But it is entirely in keeping with what we have been told before.
It is an adaptation and expansion upon a similar passage in the earlier 2E The Drow of the Underdark:
quote:
Noble Houses are led by a matron mother, the senior female priestess. In Lolth-worshipping drow communities, her rule is absolute, enforced by the priestesses beneath her (usually her daughters). (TDOTU, C2:p14)
There is no mention of siblings continuing to live with the matron. We are only told that the usual practice is for her daughters to be her enforcers.
RAS wrote of another "usual" practice for Menzoberranyr drow, which involves the elder daughters starting their own, separate houses:
quote:
Or why hadn't any of them, some in the later stages of life, struck out on their own to form separate houses, as was the norm for noble daughters when they passed their fifth century? (Homeland, P1:C4)
Drow practice seems to allow for priestesses to remain within a matron mother's household for a certain period of time, but after that, priestesses are apparently expected to leave the compound, and go start houses of their own.
What happens in the un-usual circumstance wherein a child does not fly the coop, but continues living with the parents? The books have never come right out and said.
But it would make sense that the idea of sending siblings away would be a sort of preventative measure both against intra-house wars, and against this sort of summary assassination upon the ascendance of a new matron mother. Chaos is valued by the drow, surely--but that doesn't preclude some wise consideration for social stability in the name of the survival of the species.
The practice was referenced again, here:
quote:
Matron Baenre nodded to both of them. "And you will meet with the lower houses that we have established," she said to Quenthel, a most important assignment. A large portion of House Baenre's power lay in the dozen minor houses that former Baenre nobles had come to head. (Siege of Darkness, P2:C9)
Regardless of how many sibling nobles can be noted as continuing to live in the House of Matron Triel Baenre, to some extent House Baenre previously supported the usual practice of sending nobles out to start their own houses.
Now, it should be noted that this "usual" arrangement was nominally modified by Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue's use of the word "sometimes":
quote:
A daughter who is not in direct line to rule (due to having several older sisters) sometimes separates from her matron's house (with permission, of course) and forms house of her own, with nominal loyalty to the "parent" house. (M:COI)
But I think that this was a minor mistake of wording. I still think that siblings scattering to form their own houses is the usual practice.
quote:
Do you all support this idea?
This would make sense in so far as it would prevent children from ganging up on a mother. (Why would you work together to overthrow your mother if you'll then be put out or even killed?) It would also explain why matron mothers usually don't have described siblings.
Conspiring to wipe out your own mother immediately exposes you as a particularly ambitious, treacherous sort of drow. Highlighting your talents/skills/strengths like that at once causes you be seen as both admirable, and as competition.
And since you've just gone into league with a bunch of likewise-minded ambitious, treacherous sorts, you're practically asking for someone to take drastic measures to eliminate her perceived competition. She'd be a fool not to do so, for you've just demonstrated that you're the type to stab your own matron in the back.
quote:
(Although the Nasadra twins of Ched Nasad obviously both survived, do males not count?)
The fact that Triel had many surviving siblings seems to contradict this. But then she had no children of her own, obviously, which maybe changed the situation? I feel like there are other counter examples but I can't think of them now (and perhaps any counterexamples were mistakes by authors not in the know about this rule...?) But if that were the case then why was it never mentioned?
There are "usual" practices.
But there are always exceptions, too.
Drow intrigue shows us that matron mothers are not above bending and creatively reinterpreting the rules whenever it suits them. Matron Yvonnel Baenre both sent nobles away to start new houses and took surviving nobles from inter-house wars into her own, as newly adopted noble children, in defiance of drow tradition. Baenre also ordered that Matron SiNafay Hun'ett be allowed to continue to live, under a new identity, after House Hun'ett lost the house war with House Do'Urden, in defiance of the drow tradition that nobles must never be allowed to live on the side of the failing house in house wars. Matron Malice Do'Urden never Blooded Zaknafein, and continued to allow him to live for centuries despite the fact that he harbored highly irreverent, un-Lolthite beliefs and commentary. And despite the fact that Drizzt had brought dishonor upon the house, Malice was fully prepared to let Drizzt get away with his improprieties, as well.
Recall Matron Yvonnel's admonishment to Matron Malice:
quote:
"Outwardly, your observations are correct," she continued to explain to Malice. "But surely you are wise enough to know that many things occur behind the appearances in Menzoberranzan. House Hun'ett must be destroyed--that cannot be changed--and all of the nobles of House Hun'ett must be slaughtered. It is, after all, the civilized thing to do." She paused a moment to ensure that Malice was fully comprehending the meaning of her next statement. "They must appear, at least, to be slaughtered." (bold added; Exile, P1:C1)
With lines like that, how can anyone be certain of which drow nobles have or have not been assassinated/sacrificed in the past? It's all such a bunch of smoke and mirrors.
When M:COI says that typically siblings are assassinated, does that mean that they really are assassinated, or that they are merely "assassinated"? 
That there is room for this sort of interpretation of the passage convinces me that the passage is entirely in line with the established lore, no matter what the precise details of the particular passage actually say. It honors the spirit of the drow, and how!
quote:
Also then what would be to stop sisters of a Matron from finding a way of killing any of their sisters' offspring?
The matron mother could feign outrage at the dishonor and the injustice of losing her children like that. But anything done in the name of seeking honor or justice in a drow community would be a complete farce and a sham.
I guess the only thing stopping this sort of thing from happening would be powerful-enough wards, bodyguards, sufficient training and expertise in self-defense, proactive intelligence, the fear of heinous punishment and torture, etc.? With ambition and station being the primary driving force in most drow's lives, many might be effectively reigned in simply by the threat of being turned into common houseless rogues, with the concomitant loss of station and major inconveniences to their ambitions. |
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