| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| swifty |
Posted - 03 Jun 2013 : 20:22:38
I know the realms is meant to be similar to 13th century Europe but I was just wondering how advanced they are when it comes to physics.would sages like elminster or larloch be aware that everything is made of atoms.would the same physics system even exist in the realms.and if they did could they not exploit that knowledge. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 12 Jun 2013 : 19:04:18
I don’t know if it’s right or not, but I don’t see why things in Realms Space, Krynn or Grey Space should not be made out of atoms and particles, bosons and what not. The string theory applies itself there as well… I would think.
When reading about string theory and quantum mechanics it sounds like magic anyways... so yes... I think it’s all there... spanning the entire multiverse and all the dimensions, but as pointed out, they have magic why bother trying to understand it theoretical physics.
Btw I have always imagined spells to be like complex mathematical equations… much like theoretical physics is…
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| Ze |
Posted - 12 Jun 2013 : 16:41:23
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Everything is made-up of tinier bits. Primal Energy is that 'Big Bang stuff' - it became everything else - there is nothing beyond it (or smaller then it). Its the end-all, be-all.
<cut>
Why would Elminster, or anyone else for that matter, bother with science, when they can already manipulate primal energy directly?
Let's push it further - why set the limit?
Say there is no limit.
Say that there are always smaller parts composing what you are currently observing (atoms/quarks/bosons/whatever), ad infinitum. There is no "Primal Energy", just an endless complexity, infinitely small.
We can try to think of it, or rationalize it, but we can hardly grasp the concept.
Ok now, what if Magic was the full understanding of this concept, its rules, and its implications?
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| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Jun 2013 : 14:21:31
I often fall back on fiction (and comics) to distill some (uncovered in the lore) logic of the setting, and D&D in general.
The Well World series of novels is set in a FAR-future of our Earth, and yet it has 'magic'. There are numerous other examples of this, including Jack Vance's Dying Earth (which our D&D magic system is based on - its NOT drawn from fantasy). In the Well World series (which I highly recommend), there is something called 'primal energy' - that energy that ALL things (energy and matter, etc) is created from.
So as we get deeper and deeper into the microscopic world - both biological and physical - we discover things are made-up of tinier and tinier particles. Atoms, cells... whatever. Everything is made-up of tinier bits. Primal Energy is that 'Big Bang stuff' - it became everything else - there is nothing beyond it (or smaller then it). Its the end-all, be-all.
In the Well World novels, certain races have a natural ability to manipulate primal energy... this is 'magic'. Other races (most notably humans, who can never stop meddling with the mechanics of the universe) have discovered scientific methods of affecting changes with primal energy, which seems very much like magic, but is in fact 'hard science'. They can even change the past (because time itself is made from this energy).
Now for my point - Why would Elminster, or anyone else for that matter, bother with science, when they can already manipulate primal energy directly? A scientist wants to create a 'weather machine' (cough*** HARP ***cough), they have to spend billions of dollars, decades of time, and use an army of engineers and scientists... and still maybe not get it perfect. Elminster snaps his fingers and its raining, and says, "is this what you boys were trying to do?"
When he visits Ed Greenwood in his home, and catches bits of 'science' (on the news or in magazines, etc), he probably shakes his head and wonders at the complete waste of resources. Magic does work on (D&D) Earth... we've just Forgotten how to use it (or at least, most people have... there are 'secret societies' that still know how... I love the Gothic Earth Gazeteer sourcebook for this).
So why bother with just a miniscule bit of the puzzle (atoms, cells, etc), when you can get right to the heart of things and accomplish your goals? Mages skip right to the end-game. Elminster is aware of all the 'layers' the universe has, but he can just reach-in and dig deep (he literally 'sees' the magic/energy, the way Neo saw the world in The Matrix).
To their way of thinking, WE are the ignorant ones. |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 11 Jun 2013 : 18:53:09
You are quite welcome!
I was sufficiently impressed by the their treatment of the issue that I've worked plot-lines depicted the conflict into two subsequent versions of my campaign set in Waterdeep during the relevant time period. |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 09 Jun 2013 : 21:01:40
Thank you for the recommendation, Kris. I'll look into the anthology. I wonder--would the possibility of smokepowder-based weapons give the Chosen (those that work with the Harpers/against the Zhentarim) a greater cause for concern than the Zhents' latest scheme? (or the stuff happening with the Shadovar/Thay) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 22:34:21
Strictly speaking, all things (including every possible "multiverse") must either exist within the "same" universe ... or not. Just ask your local physicist to define the word. But working within the Kris-the-Grey Universe/Multiverse definition provided above, Oerth/Greyspace and Toril/Realmspace do indeed exist within different parts of a linked multiverse; people and things and energy and information and even deities can transfer between them (through a variety of other-dimensional and extraplanar mechanisms) and it's generally assumed they must conform to the rules of their new universe/environment before they die in some unpleasant way. Including being rectified or killed by some native higher-order power.
Insofar as gunpowder goes in the Realms - the rules have been stated many times, Ao has decreed limits, Gond has invented new limits, and numerous visitors from elsewhere (including the D&D-canon Spelljammer setting) have found ways to circumvent these limits in the past. Candlekeep's shelves are full of argumentive scribblings about such stuff, but the general consensus seems to be that DMs/authors can (and must!) establish their own "local physics" on something of a case-by-case basis, while large-scale or mass-production gunpowder incursions seem to attract Death From Above and are greatly discouraged.
And how does Ao manage to enforce anything, is he truly impotent/uncaring/incompetent? Well, there was the example of that little avatar crisis thingy a while back ... |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 06 Jun 2013 : 09:17:43
Magic is also more believable in a world where the real world people of the same development level would believe in such magic. Many newer fantasy books that are well regarded, as opposed to best sellers, use magic that functions as people would have really believed at the time period. Such as an exorcism, a charm, etc. rather than flashy magic. I think magic becomes less "believable", in so far as it can be in speculative fiction, in a setting where it seems out of place, such as a more technologically advanced world. |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 06 Jun 2013 : 05:40:27
Entromancer,
It's done with....the Weave! Ta da ("its magic, I'm fooling you and you don't like it!"). Lol.
Basically, the ban is a subtle change to certain chemical reactions/alteration to the usually effective formula for gunpowder. Well, that's how it is portrayed anyway. There is, interestingly enough, a timeline of sorts of the spread of the use of some (particularly weapons) tech in the 2E hardcover Forgotten Realms guide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Adventures) and some additionally 'Da Vinci' style 'steampunky' tech given in the Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Aurora's_Whole_Realms_Catalogue) detailing innovations spread by the Gondsmen.
There are also some pretty good short stories about how the mages and rulers of Waterdeep attempt to stop the proliferation of the new 'smokepowder' weapons tech (with mixed results) in ways very similar to what you describe in one of the "Realms of the X" books (Arcane maybe?). Take a peek, I think you'd enjoy them. |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 06 Jun 2013 : 03:46:38
How does Ao manage to enact a ban on gunpowder? I would like to see a Realms timeline developing where technology becomes more a mainstay. Developed as something to help the common folk in the more isolated regions survive. From there, you could see a spread of ideas. Low tech that gradually develops over time. At some point, you could have a gathering of nobles and spellcasters enact a law that restricts the best tech to a given Realm's nobility. |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 05 Jun 2013 : 19:27:19
Swifty,
If you are asking about 'Ao's boss' (so to speak) from the end of the novel, then I suspect that is the case in so much as TSR/WoTC (and various authors) are willing to shoehorn our big g God into the varied deity mish mash that is the D&D universe (or multiverse if you prefer that interpretation, Lol). There were certainly outlines of a 'celestial bureaucracy' over and above Ao governing all the corners of the universe through varied agent beings with someone or something atop it. So, for ease of understanding I'd say yes. |
| swifty |
Posted - 05 Jun 2013 : 19:14:10
Bearing all this in mind is the luminous being at the end of water deep possibly our 'god'.the creator if you will. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 05 Jun 2013 : 14:41:09
quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
As to the placement of Toril and Earth (and, to a lesser extent Greyhawk, Krynn, etc) I was always of the view that they were in merely in separate Crystal Spheres within the same universe as opposed to different universes within a multiverse. I'm reasonably certain Spelljammer and Planescape (and the rest of the 2E cosmology) back me up on that.
(...)
In fact, as far as I have read, they are in the same Prime Material Plane, but it doesn't necessary imply the same universe. Since the Spelljammer sources declare that a Crystal Sphere can have universal dimensions (contain a whole universe, in my understanding), I deducted that the Prime Material would be a multiverse per se (and part of a greater multiverse that include alternate Primes, the Inner and the Outer Planes). But maybe I'm wrong. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 05 Jun 2013 : 02:13:04
I always explained the lack of scientific progress in the Realms as a result of the prevalence of magic. Magic, both divine and arcane, solves all of the problems that were eventually solved by science in our world. So there hasn't been any great need to progress the scientific understanding of their world.
I've always felt that was a better explanation than "The laws of physics are just different". |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 04 Jun 2013 : 18:13:19
As to the placement of Toril and Earth (and, to a lesser extent Greyhawk, Krynn, etc) I was always of the view that they were in merely in separate Crystal Spheres within the same universe as opposed to different universes within a multiverse. I'm reasonably certain Spelljammer and Planescape (and the rest of the 2E cosmology) back me up on that. From a physics standpoint (magic can escape many things, but it can't easily escape basic physics, it just manipulates it differently than technology) travel of ANYTHING between universes in a multiverse would be pretty much impossible (making M theory pretty tough to prove).
Earth and Toril are inexorably linked through a series of longstanding (if hidden or 'forgotten') gates and sites. That has been canon from day one. The 'Wizards Three' threw in chats between Dalamar (and Raist at one point too), Mordenkainen, and Elminster as a way of linking TSR's campaign worlds (as did the spelljammer crystal sphere maps between the systems).
As to the tech issues... The existence of the Weave (and/or a ban of another sort by Ao et al) makes it so that the formula for gunpowder doesn't quite work on Toril (without added magic and materials making it smokepowder) and shorts out/blocks the operation of modern electronics. I didn't see that as an issue with electricity as much as one with transistors, circuit boards, chips, processors and the like. Your iPhone would be a brick because it's delicate electronics won't turn on, but a basic battery still produces a charge. I'd also assume you might be able to get something as 'complex' as light bulb or a telegraph line up and running (at least in their crudest forms).
What is interesting is whether this prohibition against tech was 'lifted' (or merely non functional) during the post Spellplague period before the restoration of the Weave. I'd sort of assumed (in running my Earth to Realms games - my one trick gaming pony) that there was no official travel between the Realms and Earth (or vice versa) during the Spellplague period (all of the mages, Elminster included, who used to travel to Earth regularly were certainly in no shape to do so). I'd never gotten to the point of deciding that this meant the tech ban was temporarily ignored. Interesting thought that.
On a related note, I have had bad guy NPCs circumvent the tech ban during the pre-Spellplague period through the use of the Shadow Weave. Basically, guns/bullets or other tech (night vision goggles, etc, et al) can be made into Shadow Weave magic items with the direct aid of powerful casters and the blessing of Shar. That has allowed certain bad guy travelers from Earth to 'cheat' and use powerful Earth tech in small amounts against the PCs. I figure if the good guys get to run around using their in depth knowledge of Realms lore and sometimes building basic 'steampunk' style tech (not forbidden as noted above) then why shouldn't I throw some cheaty bad guy Earthers at them? It makes things fun! |
| Barastir |
Posted - 04 Jun 2013 : 11:55:14
Kentinal and swifty: at least until 2e, Earth, as much as Krynn, existed in the same multiverse where you can find the Forgotten Realms. One could travel between them, and Elminster regularly visited Earth, both in present times and in the 1800s, IIRC (usually a place in Yellowstone park). The Wizard's Three articles in Dragon Magazine are somehow about this.
Now, if you want to think of a universe, and probably each one has its own laws, then maybe we could consider they are not in the same place. Accordingly with Spelljammer, the Material Plane is formed of the phlogiston, a sort of energy plane where many Crystal Spheres float. Those Crystal Spheres can be as small as to contain a single world, they can contain a solar system, or they can envelop a whole universe. Our universe would be in a sphere, Krynn would be in other, and Toril in another one (as Athas or Oerth).
To travel from one Crystal Sphere to another (or from one world to another) you could use planar magic or gates, or Spelljamming.  |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 04 Jun 2013 : 01:14:42
A gun is quicker and easier for the average common Realms dweller to use. Learning how to cast a spell would take the time and resources that all Realms folk might not have. I could imagine some sects using the invention of guns as an excuse to go to war on the Gondsfolk. Imagine a gun whose barrel is made from the blade of some magic sword. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Jun 2013 : 23:47:04
Older Manuals of the Planes and various AD&D-era or Planescape-ish materials provided rules for assessing the science and magic capacities of worlds and planes and places. Most often in a science-vs-magic slider which prohibited them from working well in tandem. In some rulesets you could transport existing materials across such divides - say, bring an iPhone or Taser from our world to Toril and expect it to work normally until it runs out of "charges". In some rulesets you couldn't even bring, say, a sword from our world to Toril without it changing (from a rules perspective) from an advanced modern aerospace metallurgical hyperalloy into the equivalent of fine steel. Most rules divide technological devices up into complexity levels, as normal D&D rules divide spells up into levels, and simply prohibit tech/magic devices from operating in incompatible environments. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Jun 2013 : 22:06:27
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
wait.so the realms exists within the same universe as earth.were is the info for this.
Mages of high enough level can travel to different spheres, panes or universes.
Dangonlance last I knew did not exist in Forgotten Realm universe. T^he universe works different. |
| swifty |
Posted - 03 Jun 2013 : 21:59:21
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
The 2e FRCS had a sentence that the physics within Realmspace are slightly out of touch with the physics here on earth, thus gadgets brought over from earth to Toril often simply fail to work
IIRC that's why you need smokepowder in the realms (which is a slightly magical substane) as opposed to normal gunpowder
Since powferull archmages from Krynn, Oerth and Toril visited Earth from time to time, they certainly have at least some knowledge about our science. Elminster for example was able to explain how a TV works to his colleagues during their last visit
wait.so the realms exists within the same universe as earth.were is the info for this. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Jun 2013 : 21:30:05
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
With access to magic it might also not be necessary to learn the things we have in our world. Why learn how to make a gun if you can cast fireball?
Why invent a crossbow that costs more to make, bowmen having being doing the job for centuries?
The answer is bowmen need years of training and a crossbow is point and click that can be put in the hands of a dolt (as long as he knows enough to fire at the foe).
Fireball as a spell only a few percentage of people can gain the skill and level to cast, science could make it possible for a dolt to do the same damage. *G* |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 03 Jun 2013 : 21:12:34
With access to magic it might also not be necessary to learn the things we have in our world. Why learn how to make a gun if you can cast fireball? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Jun 2013 : 20:58:30
Electric energy does not work in the Realms based on latest reports.
Correct me if I am in error, IPhone uses electric power right? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Jun 2013 : 20:54:44
I'm not sure that knowledge of atoms would allow them any option to exploit that knowledge... If they try to use magic to do it, it'd likely be easier to just make a purely magical big boom. And unless you want to go the steampunk route, a strictly technological approach would be right out. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 03 Jun 2013 : 20:54:20
Believe I read that two.
My take... if you wanted to build an iPhone in the realms, it is possible. But you would have to do all of the centuries of research of the physics/chemistry/biology which makes up the device using the universal laws of the realms.
While at the same time, magic call do all the same things with less time, effort, resources and research.
So only die hard scientists like the worshippers of Gond will do it... |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 03 Jun 2013 : 20:33:48
The 2e FRCS had a sentence that the physics within Realmspace are slightly out of touch with the physics here on earth, thus gadgets brought over from earth to Toril often simply fail to work
IIRC that's why you need smokepowder in the realms (which is a slightly magical substane) as opposed to normal gunpowder
Since powferull archmages from Krynn, Oerth and Toril visited Earth from time to time, they certainly have at least some knowledge about our science. Elminster for example was able to explain how a TV works to his colleagues during their last visit |
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