| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Doge |
Posted - 18 Apr 2013 : 16:37:54
Hello. I'm creating a new character that I'm basing off Thoros of Myr from the Song of Ice and Fire series. I want him to be a cleric of Kossuth but is more of a fighter by heart and quite good at combat. I'm planning on giving him the Knight Squire character background from CoV but it requires a region where martial knighthoods support the local government. Seeing as i'm based in Chessenta, i'd like to ask if there are any martial knighthoods there? There's constant civil war and has a large population of fighting men. Red Knight has quite a following there so I was wondering if there might be some Knights of the Red Falcon stationed there? Maybe a chapterhouse in one of the cities? My character would be a Mulan squire hoping to be a paladin but was forced into priesthood by his mother/father who is also a priest of Kossuth. He'd wield a flaming longsword. |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 14:25:43
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I've always wondered whether, given the real world trope showcased through the Old Empires, that when the Egyptians and Babylonians were brought to Toril by the Imaskari, that a few ancient Greeks weren't brought along as well ... who became the Chessentans ...
-- George Krashos
I'm assuming that by default.
That is, not 'Greeks', given the time frames involves for the Babylonians and Egyptians (from the mythology, we can place the approximate time they were taken at betweeen the 18th and 22nd centuries BCE), but proto-Achean/Myceanean explorers and mercenaries.
That would still have been after the primary importation of the Mulan. My private explanation is the Bukhara Spires were used by an order of Imaskari women to explore the World Without Art for some time after the large-scale slaving operations and that a small group of Scythians and Acheans/Myceanean travelled through. They settled on Ixonos and the men (and those women unwilling to live under Ixonosian mores) formed a nucleus of settlement in future Chessenta.
Much later, the Untheri found them living there. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 13:17:17
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I'm absolutely considering Chondanthan and Chessic different languages, but loan words for titles are a common thing in our world. Just witness all the places with Caesars (Kaiser, Tsar, etc.).
Because the concept of knighthood doesn't seem to exist in Unther, it's a reasonable conjecture that it was imported from Chondathan-speakers into Chessenta at some point.
I've always wondered whether, given the real world trope showcased through the Old Empires, that when the Egyptians and Babylonians were brought to Toril by the Imaskari, that a few ancient Greeks weren't brought along as well ... who became the Chessentans ...
-- George Krashos |
| Icelander |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 23:42:33
I'm absolutely considering Chondanthan and Chessic different languages, but loan words for titles are a common thing in our world. Just witness all the places with Caesars (Kaiser, Tsar, etc.).
Because the concept of knighthood doesn't seem to exist in Unther, it's a reasonable conjecture that it was imported from Chondathan-speakers into Chessenta at some point. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 23:23:56
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
For what it’s worth - and this is totally my stuff - I have “kyros” as “sir” in Chessentan. Female version (i.e. “lady”) is “kyra”.
— George Krashos
As a lower form of knighthood than 'Corlar', then?
I expect that foreign notions of knighthood are likely to coe with Blade Kingdom, Chondanthan and other mercenaries. Religious orders and churches that are international in character are also likely to use their own forms of address, but these will be known well enough in Chessenta so that being a knight of a respected military order might still mean something.
Would such a knight be addressed as 'Sir' or 'Kyros'?
In my campaign, the Blade Kingdom address for a knight is 'Ser', as 'Sir' seems widespread in the Heartlands (suggesting that it is a corruption of the 'Saer' from Chondathan) and that regional dialects or other languages might render 'Saer' differently into their language.
The address of a noble of unknown rank in Mulmaster, Zor/Zora, also sounds like it could be Chessentan in origin, which would make sense, because all the Moonsea cities have armed forces several times what their population would support and Ed has said that most of the men under arms there were born in the Vilhon Reach and Chessenta, arriving there as mercenaries (and often retiring back home).
Corlar is the noble title, mine is the term of address. And I would be careful to keep Chondathan and Chessentan not too similar. They are recognised as separate languages and while there may be some transfer due to geography, I don't consider them all that homogenous.
-- George Krashos |
| Icelander |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 16:23:26
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
For what it’s worth - and this is totally my stuff - I have “kyros” as “sir” in Chessentan. Female version (i.e. “lady”) is “kyra”.
— George Krashos
As a lower form of knighthood than 'Corlar', then?
I expect that foreign notions of knighthood are likely to coe with Blade Kingdom, Chondanthan and other mercenaries. Religious orders and churches that are international in character are also likely to use their own forms of address, but these will be known well enough in Chessenta so that being a knight of a respected military order might still mean something.
Would such a knight be addressed as 'Sir' or 'Kyros'?
In my campaign, the Blade Kingdom address for a knight is 'Ser', as 'Sir' seems widespread in the Heartlands (suggesting that it is a corruption of the 'Saer' from Chondathan) and that regional dialects or other languages might render 'Saer' differently into their language.
The address of a noble of unknown rank in Mulmaster, Zor/Zora, also sounds like it could be Chessentan in origin, which would make sense, because all the Moonsea cities have armed forces several times what their population would support and Ed has said that most of the men under arms there were born in the Vilhon Reach and Chessenta, arriving there as mercenaries (and often retiring back home). |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 16:12:07
For what it’s worth - and this is totally my stuff - I have “kyroth” as “sir” in Chessentan. Female version (i.e. “lady”) is “kyra”.
— George Krashos |
| Icelander |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 15:28:55
Thanks.
If at all similar to the Roman titles, Centurion and Prefect weren't social, in the same way. They certainly had prestige and authority in the military, but in society, they were middle-class, not gentry or military aristocracy. |
| BadCatMan |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 15:20:48
Swords of the Iron Legion mentions "Centurion" and "praefectus" in Old Chessentan, which are obviously from Ancient Rome, so Centurion or something along the same lines could work.
"The Patrol" in Realms of the Deep has "Swordmaster" for the leader of the Cimbar city watch. It could do for a knight or equivalent.
Ed Greenwood in his Candlekeep responses offered "corlar" as a title for a knight or baronet in Chessenta, along with several others for regular feudalism. The usual Ed-sounding stuff. I recorded it in my notes, but I'm not good enough at Candlekeep-fu to find the original.
But those are more titles than terms of address, of course, but there's a range of options there. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 12:06:46
Anyone have any clue what knights might be addressed as in Chessenta?
It seems boring to use just 'sir', not to mention not necessarily accurate. In various places with Chondanthan influence, 'Saer' is just, either instead of or in addition to 'Sir' (it's used for higher nobility in the Vast). In Impiltur, knights are addressed 'Orn', instead of 'Sir'.
I'd like it if the Chessic for 'sir' was different. Either they use 'Saer' (because I imagine that the concept of knighthood, specifically, is not Untheri and probably imported from the west and/or north), but I'd also be down with something Chessentan sounding.
Zor/Sor, possibly. Or Zer. Sounds close enough to sir, but is different enough so that it's clearly another language. |
| Doge |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 00:53:31
Greetings! I actually just made him a cleric of Red Knight which solved all my problems. We're starting a new game with 3rd level characters. He's part of a band of clerics that joined some visiting Red Falcons back to the Citadel of Strategic Militancy to learn more. He'll be around that area when the campaign starts. No flaming sword yet though. Hehe. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 23 Apr 2013 : 13:20:22
If you plan on your character being from Chessenta, he'd very likely has found his martial training with on of the many mercenary companies active in Chessenta's borders. There is an intense rivalry between cities to have the best companies fielded in their armies, so your character could concievably have served for many cities during several campaigns.
For a more fire-warrior angle, you can always try being a knight in an order of Kossuth, such as the goodly Disciples of the Phoenix. They have strict taboos and rigid traditions (only eating cooked food for example) and have been known to selfbranding or even self immolation for personal sins.
Also, as Lathander is considered the head of the local pantheon in Chessenta, a boy could concievably recieve squirehood in the Order of the Aster (I believe Abelar from the Twilight War was one of these). But most of these Aster fellow are paladins...
I don't think it's impossible to find wandering knights of the Order of the Red Falcon (Red Knight worshippers) in Chessenta. Gaining squirehood with one of them require distinguishing oneself in tactics and military history, so perhaps your character might have taken it as a challenge on himself to gain acceptance with the Red Falcon higher-ups. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 00:03:31
quote:
Originally posted by Doge
@The Arcanamach Akanax.
@sleyvas thanks for all the info. What I was planning for him is that he ran away from home and became a squire in another city-state for some time but was eventually found by his family and forced back into priesthood. I better change some things including the Kossuth angle. Not much of a presence in Chessenta.
I'm basically after the Militia feat and i'll build a backstory behind that. Wish they just put the Militia feat in Chessenta. I mean the citizens of Akanax are basically citizen-soldiers. Bit of info, he really doesn't care much of his priesthood, it was the path chosen for him and what he really wants is to be a fighter but can't seem to throw off his chains. This seems to me quite realistic seeing as he's surrounded by hero worship and all the warrior culture. But instead he was born into a family of clerics which doesn't get as much respect or honor as sleyvas said. He's just basically making the most of what he has.
I could just make him a cleric of Red Knight with the war domain for a free weapon proficiency and weapon focus for the longsword but that'd be too easy. And he'd like it too much.
Hmmm, militia feat? The only driving force I ever had to get that was to get a level in spellsword, but as a cleric you wouldn't need it. You by chance making a cleric/mage/spellsword/mystic theurge? It wouldn't be very warriory, but you could wear armor and wield a decent weapon.
You know, thinking on that idea of having the militia feat, doing cleric 3/ wizard 5/ spellsword 1/ mystic theurge 10/ some other mage pr. class 1 might not be too bad if you can do some tricks with persistent spells using divine metamagic or somesuch (thinking persisting divine power and righteous might). You'd be running around with a +14 bonus to str and your BAB becomes +20, +4 size bonus to CON, +4 to natural armor bonus (stacking) . Throw in some +5 blended quartz full plate (twilight) and a +5 animated mithril heavy shield and a two handed weapon(now large).... you'd make a really nasty warrior mage. |
| Doge |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 08:09:24
Well that's good enough for me. I think I can work with all the info presented here. Many things have to be changed, but it's always for the better. Thank you sleyvas, The Arcanamach and Kentinal for taking the time to view and reply on my post. Cheers to you guys! |
| Doge |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 07:50:01
@The Arcanamach Akanax.
@sleyvas thanks for all the info. What I was planning for him is that he ran away from home and became a squire in another city-state for some time but was eventually found by his family and forced back into priesthood. I better change some things including the Kossuth angle. Not much of a presence in Chessenta.
I'm basically after the Militia feat and i'll build a backstory behind that. Wish they just put the Militia feat in Chessenta. I mean the citizens of Akanax are basically citizen-soldiers. Bit of info, he really doesn't care much of his priesthood, it was the path chosen for him and what he really wants is to be a fighter but can't seem to throw off his chains. This seems to me quite realistic seeing as he's surrounded by hero worship and all the warrior culture. But instead he was born into a family of clerics which doesn't get as much respect or honor as sleyvas said. He's just basically making the most of what he has.
I could just make him a cleric of Red Knight with the war domain for a free weapon proficiency and weapon focus for the longsword but that'd be too easy. And he'd like it too much. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Apr 2013 : 23:57:20
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well based on what Sleyvas has offered, clearly there are military orders. A Chain of command, code of conduct, etc.
So what becomes only question would be if they have a code of honor that would let the forces to be called Knights.
Very true. The fact that nobility is a testament of one's martial skill, would make me say that they won't be chivalrous. However, they may still take on squires to train (and abuse). However, I don't see Thoros of Myr as necessarily being paladin'ish so much as vengeance reborn. In fact, given the area, instead of Kossuth, it might be interesting if your character followed Assuran of the Three Thunders/Hoar.
NOTES from Old Empires
Mount Thulbane
This extinct volcano is the highest peak in Chessenta; it is said that the god Assuran, patron of Chessenta, lives on this peak. At the foot of the mountain are the fields of Pryollus, where competitions are held every two years to determine the finest athletes in Chessenta. These grounds are currently being used by the king of Mourktar, who is having an athletic competition to determine
who will succeed him |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 18 Apr 2013 : 22:14:30
Well based on what Sleyvas has offered, clearly there are military orders. A Chain of command, code of conduct, etc.
So what becomes only question would be if they have a code of honor that would let the forces to be called Knights. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Apr 2013 : 21:31:56
It would seem kind of odd to have knights in service to the red knight send one of their squires off to serve a cleric of Kossuth. Wouldn't they rather have the squire raised up and trained under the principles of their own god? If it were a knighthood that was not religiously tied, I could see it more. For instance, if all the nobles of a certain city are considered to be a part of a knighthood/organization for said city. NOTE: nobility in Chessenta is not an inherited position. You gain nobility by being a "Hero of" a battle. This implies performing great deeds of martial ability.
Also, just to note from Old Empires:
There are no special titles for priests or mages, which are not the most respected classes in Chessenta. Both are considered to be less than noble professions, except in Cimbar, which recognizes teachers and philosophers from these classes as the pinnacles of humanachievement. There is nothing particularly honorable or dignified about being a member of these classes; it is the act of teaching or philosophizing that is seen as dignified in Cimbar. One must also engage in public discussions and debates between philosophers to gain proper recognition.
Noting the following also about the military of Cimbar
The army of Cimbar numbers 15,000, of which there are 100 air cavalry (griffon), 100 mage artillery (3rd to 5th level), 1,300 marines, 9,000 infantry, 2,000 archers, and 2,500 cavalry. The population of the city is 90,000. There are usually at least six mercenary companies in Cimbar as well.
So, they apparently have some kind of elite air cavalry that ride griffons. I can see this group definitely favoring not just warriors but spellcasters as well. They may also have some land based cavalry that work with them. Thus, depending on your character's level, he might be in either organization. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 18 Apr 2013 : 20:15:46
I don't know of any formal khighthoods off the top of my head but then Chessenta is a Grecian culture (which didnt have knights in the strict sense of the word). I can easily see a Red Falcon presence and, if you like, some sort of fighting 'society' could be present as well. I would make the largest base of such a society in the 'Spartan' city (I can't think of its name right now). |
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