| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 02 Apr 2013 : 20:23:26
Would it be possible for a barbarian shaman with an underground army of genasi, tieflings, goblinoids and wyrmkeepers to turn Cormyr into a No Man's Land ala Bane from The Dark Knight Rises? I can't, for the life of me, figure out how to subdue/incapacitate Elminster and any other chosen lurking around the Realm.
Suggestions? Or would this be extremely suicidal and extremely stupid? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Sightless |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 14:36:55
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
Would it be possible for a barbarian shaman with an underground army of genasi, tieflings, goblinoids and wyrmkeepers to turn Cormyr into a No Man's Land ala Bane from The Dark Knight Rises? I can't, for the life of me, figure out how to subdue/incapacitate Elminster and any other chosen lurking around the Realm.
Suggestions? Or would this be extremely suicidal and extremely stupid?
If you're going to imitate that movie then take a page from the movie and use some sort of WMD which'll outside forces fearful of stepping in. You don't even need a huge army, just as Bane didn't need a huge army. Depending on the threat, you could convince the Cormyrean government to set up a cordon around the borders so that the people don't flee. If the weapon which the bad guys possess is terrible enough, and if the good guys are afraid of its being set off if they intercede, then they'll follow the rules which the bad guys set down until they find some way of turning the tables on him.
The only question is, what exists in the Forgotten Realms canon which is equivalent to a WMD? Something only good for destruction, but which can inflict tremendous amount of damage, and which all powers everywhere would fear seeing it employed?
Well, I’ll admit, my campaign was set shortly after barry Elmenster deep, but right before Elmenster in rage, a book I’ve not read yet. So, the chosen and El were occupied at the time. So, depending on when you are planning to run this, I’d suggest the following:
1. have the chosen busy with the events during or around Elmenster in hell, thus making them busy and unable to help;
2. have the chosen and El busy dealing with an invasion from a different plan of existence;
3 have them all busy with events surrounding the taking of Shadowdale;
4 have them all busy dealing with an issue that never comes to light;
Above all this, my suggested problem isn’t one that even the chosen can simply step in and snap their fingers and fix. The crop blight for instence, will require time to figure out, even for a brillent sage such as El, as it’s brand new, spreeds easily, and is resistence to most forms of of alcamical responses. The fact that it spreads so easily, and has a natural carrier makes a response all the more difficult, as a magical cure wont keep the fungi from taking back up inn area, once it’s been removed, unless some sort of treatment is used to keep it out. As for the nobles and the shortages, and so on, El could handle that issue given time, but he’d have to direct his attention to that completely, and that would mean that other matters would be left to someone else. And all this is dependent upon, as I’ve already said, that said individuals aren’t dealing with a more pressing issue, whatever that pressing issue might be. A single powerful item, no matter what it’s nature, would be more easily neutralized, than an environmental one, that covers a large portion of the nation, and is directly linked to survivability. Food and water are the two most essential factors for survival, with shelter coming next, but animals will go without shelter in order to gain the latter. Starvation is also something that anyone can easily understand and quickly stimulates the flight/fight portion of the mind. I can respond better, knowing when you plan to run this, but for now, this is the best I can due.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 13:33:29
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
Would it be possible for a barbarian shaman with an underground army of genasi, tieflings, goblinoids and wyrmkeepers to turn Cormyr into a No Man's Land ala Bane from The Dark Knight Rises? I can't, for the life of me, figure out how to subdue/incapacitate Elminster and any other chosen lurking around the Realm.
Suggestions? Or would this be extremely suicidal and extremely stupid?
If you're going to imitate that movie then take a page from the movie and use some sort of WMD which'll outside forces fearful of stepping in. You don't even need a huge army, just as Bane didn't need a huge army. Depending on the threat, you could convince the Cormyrean government to set up a cordon around the borders so that the people don't flee. If the weapon which the bad guys possess is terrible enough, and if the good guys are afraid of its being set off if they intercede, then they'll follow the rules which the bad guys set down until they find some way of turning the tables on him.
The only question is, what exists in the Forgotten Realms canon which is equivalent to a WMD? Something only good for destruction, but which can inflict tremendous amount of damage, and which all powers everywhere would fear seeing it employed?
I don't think that will work as well in the Realms, because everyone would want to get involved, regardless of the threat. Shade, for example, would want the WMD for themselves, and wouldn't care if all Cormyr got nuked while they were trying to get it. Ditto for Thay.
That's part of why I prefer Sightless's approach. |
| Venger |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 12:28:03
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
Would it be possible for a barbarian shaman with an underground army of genasi, tieflings, goblinoids and wyrmkeepers to turn Cormyr into a No Man's Land ala Bane from The Dark Knight Rises? I can't, for the life of me, figure out how to subdue/incapacitate Elminster and any other chosen lurking around the Realm.
Suggestions? Or would this be extremely suicidal and extremely stupid?
If you're going to imitate that movie then take a page from the movie and use some sort of WMD which'll outside forces fearful of stepping in. You don't even need a huge army, just as Bane didn't need a huge army. Depending on the threat, you could convince the Cormyrean government to set up a cordon around the borders so that the people don't flee. If the weapon which the bad guys possess is terrible enough, and if the good guys are afraid of its being set off if they intercede, then they'll follow the rules which the bad guys set down until they find some way of turning the tables on him.
The only question is, what exists in the Forgotten Realms canon which is equivalent to a WMD? Something only good for destruction, but which can inflict tremendous amount of damage, and which all powers everywhere would fear seeing it employed? |
| Derulbaskul |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 10:07:30
Nice one, Sightless. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 05 May 2013 : 20:37:09
Thanks, it was actually the plot of the first campaign I ever ran. And the repercautions are still being felt several campaigns later. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 May 2013 : 18:57:21
That's one of the most workable ideas I've seen thus far. ^^ |
| Sightless |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 16:55:55
I don’t recall what era this will be taken place in, so I will simply state “evil group,” to refer to any group you’d like to use.
(1), Evil group obtains the services of druids, through either blackmail, mercenary contract, or being part of the group itself. Said druids begin casting locust sworms on the heavest agriculture centers of Cormyr, as well as flights of birds, ravens, would work well, as they wouldn’t be expected to serve as carriers.
(2). Evil group begins to use alcamy to alter underdark fungi to pray on grain, barley, and oat crops. Making the fungi in seed form and use the birds as carriers for the seeds.
(3). The combination of these two forms of blight, will greatly reduce the amount of food in Cormyr.
(5) As a consequence, nobles and wealthy merchants begin to hord food.
(6) clashes between the King’s army and nobles result as a consequence of attempts at food distribution, and rampet food obtaining and hording.
(7) Evil group slips semi-charasmatic leaders to further rally the rabble, along side Corymrians that are already dowing so.
Consequence, we have a semi-fragmented political nation, civil strife, food shortages, and a continuing food scarcity until the fungus is taken care of.
The party must help to obtain food, figure out what forces are causing crops to fail, deal with rebel armies, deal with outside forces with magical power, and they must do so quickly, as things will only get worse. The sands of time are running low, and things can get a lot worse, before they might, might get better.
(Yeah, I’ve done this before).
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| Doge |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 14:50:52
Move the Entropy and its daughters toward it? A sphere of annihilation is pretty nukey. That'd cause panic. Release a couple dragons and a horde of undead, some earthquakes and storms, open a gate to hell, burn all their crops and livestock. Just simply cause chaos. Make the people revolt. They can't handle a lot of things happening everywhere all at once. Chaos is your friend. |
| Riverwind |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 08:52:59
I would love to get into a discussion that Cormry's army isn't large enough!!!!!! |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 09 Apr 2013 : 11:52:18
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Oh, and he had a nuke, and made sure the whole world knew he had one.
First big obstacle is, of course, where to get something with that much destructive power in the realms. Certainly such things exist, but they aren't exactly as easy to come by as nuclear weapons are in our world, nor are they as easy to control.
Then there's the issue that should you acquire an item of such power as to be able to level a city in an instant, most people aren't going to know what it is to be afraid of it, were as nukes are very much ingrained in the human psyche in the real world.
Almost forgot! Speaking of Cormyr? One word: Tilverton.  |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 06 Apr 2013 : 00:46:56
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Easy. Just get one gremlin and have lots and lots of water. No wizard, no king is safe amidst an army of wet and happy gremlins!
If we're bringing in outside threat, I'll just hop to Zendikar, rig the Eldrazi Titans with harnesses, pop over to New Phyrexia for the Praetors, and let them enter Toril astride the Eldrazi Titans. :D
Thanks, all. You've given me some ideas that I should be able to stretch over multiple campaigns, culminating the invasion of Cormry. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 05 Apr 2013 : 23:16:26
The way to bring down a society, be it city like Gotham or Country like Corymr is to restrict or eliminate the basic needs of life. Water, Food, shelter, protection.
To use the Nuke example, it is not the explosion which makes the weapon so feared. In fact that destructive power is measured in the equalivalant of TNT, so conventional weapons have the same effect. It is the fact a nuke poisons the food, water, landscape and people of where it hits.
This is the thing which breaks down society.
Gotham in The Dark Knight Rises, like in the comics No Man's Land, is the factor the city is sealed off from contact. In a major modern city where food and water have to be imported from outside, this means food and water are scares. The Police Force is limited and/or weakened, and most of the buildings are damaged and/or need of repair and/or destroyed.
The basic needs of human are broken.
If the Shaman can do this to Cormyr, which is hard to perform then just a city in that state... you can get what you want. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 05 Apr 2013 : 22:24:45
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Nothing splits a country better than a religeous civil war.
I read you the first time. While their are deities in opposition in the Realms, such wars are unlikely in the Realms where people believe in many deities.
It's also unlikely to work when there isn't a state-sponsored religion. If there was a single, state-sponsored religion, using religious strife to cause a civil war becomes a far more workable solution.
You could have one religion declared the state religion (by an en-spelled king) and see the ensuing chaos.
Easy
Oops double post |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Apr 2013 : 13:25:02
Easy. Just get one gremlin and have lots and lots of water. No wizard, no king is safe amidst an army of wet and happy gremlins! |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 05 Apr 2013 : 06:35:31
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I honestly think we're over thinking this. Cormyr falls as hard or as easy as a given GM wills it to.
I was thinking about this scroll today and came to the same conclusion.
I think if a DM wants it to happen, he ought to start from "It's happened, now what?"
As in, "Now what do the players do?"
If the players are the types to really question how and why, let the adventure flow that way.
If they're not, then the DM can sculpt a Locked Down Cormyr to his or her liking and let the players fix things or do whatever it is he thinks they'll do.
That said, half the fun of DMing is building and pondering, so I'd not say "end of story" so much as "the story has just gotten started."
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| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 05 Apr 2013 : 05:11:39
I honestly think we're over thinking this. Cormyr falls as hard or as easy as a given GM wills it to.
What it boils down to is can this barbarian shaman's forces beat the purple dragons and the war wizards in battle. If Entromancer says they can, then they can(within the context of his realms, of course).
End of story, really. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 04 Apr 2013 : 07:21:27
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
Would it be possible for a barbarian shaman with an underground army of genasi, tieflings, goblinoids and wyrmkeepers to turn Cormyr into a No Man's Land ala Bane from The Dark Knight Rises?
I don't think you could do that to all of Cormyr unless you had a nearly infinite army--of the sort that an army of deepspawn (each with its own supply of limitless food, all producing large numbers of troops day after day, month after month to replace your losses) could make--with which to pacify the land.
If we're talking smaller scale, say Marsember or Arabel (or smaller), then yes I think an army like the one you describe could take control, provided it had surprise and the ability to close or otherwise nullify existing portals between these cities and the Royal Palace and Royal Court in Suzail, and some ability to prevent teleportation or to identify teleporting arrivals and deal with them quickly and decisively.
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
I can't, for the life of me, figure out how to subdue/incapacitate Elminster and any other chosen lurking around the Realm.
If we're talking the small scale, don't worry about them because they just won't care about your invasion force.
If we're talking large scale, I still wouldn't worry about them.
Cormyr has had its fight or die tests in the past where the Chosen were effectively out of the picture and it probably will again in the future.
In these tests Cormyr has gotten stronger, because it won and survived. Whose to say your scenario isn't one of these situations where the gods (including Mystra) and their servants sit back and watch what they've helped to create get stress tested? |
| Seravin |
Posted - 04 Apr 2013 : 03:21:23
Oh I meant an anti-magic shell that spanned the whole kingdom, or a large part of it. Not a personal size one. One that made magic stop functioning in Cormyr entirely. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 23:56:27
The only way to knock down Cormyr is to use its own forces working for their own good and not suspecting anything. Like using price disbalances to bankrupt some parts, while causing commoners to be upset at nobles without giving the Crown good formal reasons to remove the latter in other places. Preferrably while the whole place overexrts - e.g. runs a tariff war with Sembia while goblins and sahuagin get restless and pirate get paranoidal or vengeful... that sort of thing.
Otherwise, it's far too big, strong and already have mechanisms countering sneaky moves by Zhents and local nobles.
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Some sort of anti-magic shell artifact would counter the Chosen AND the War Wizards.
In a MUD, yes. In FR world, on a small scale this is used mostly against detection. As the simplest solution - let me quote the last words a nameless Cyricist who employed exactly this sort of tactics heard (from Elminster of Shadowdale) in FR Comics:
- But are you equally immune to falling masonry?
quote:
I would play up that Purple Dragons are complacent because of the War Wizards, and they are overwhelmed without being backed up by magic.
They're tough (regular clashes with goblins, etc prevent getting fat), so not a lot. And will get even this beaten out of them after one fight. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 22:33:37
Track down a few royal bastards and recruit them, get them to start rousing rabble about wanting to rule the place.
Then while they're doing that, start some democratic groups.
Should have a full scale rebellion going on in about four years. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 21:36:24
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Nothing splits a country better than a religeous civil war.
I read you the first time. While their are deities in opposition in the Realms, such wars are unlikely in the Realms where people believe in many deities.
It's also unlikely to work when there isn't a state-sponsored religion. If there was a single, state-sponsored religion, using religious strife to cause a civil war becomes a far more workable solution. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 19:25:04
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Nothing splits a country better than a religeous civil war.
I read you the first time. While their are deities in opposition in the Realms, such wars are unlikely in the Realms where people believe in many deities. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 18:26:28
Nothing splits a country better than a religeous civil war. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 15:47:57
Nothing splits a country better than a religeous civil war. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 15:02:48
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
What about sending in smaller squads to incite strife and in-fighting in Cormyr before launching the main assault?
Well if you have enough troops it might work. The problem though is that as border raids step up so will defenders. The only way this might be effective would be large raids on most borders, that troops are drawn from center and a calm border. You massive strike force of course hidden beyond the calm border to attack poorly defended border and strike to less defended cities on towns in a slash and burn attack.
In something like a few year campaign you might even place mercenaries within the defending forces to revolt a certain day.
Any region could become less stable if enough leaders are killed and enough chaotics move in the lands.
All in all it requires planning time and resources. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 12:22:00
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
planing, planning, planning.
This is the way you need to go about it. Plan, wait till the plan works out, then plan again with new means and built up on the previous one. Small steps that cover the ground until you have a solid foundation to work higher, it takes time, alot of effort and you always need to be prepared to act when some plan does not work out as you hoped it would or someone else is finding out about what you do and actively opposes your schemes. Try to create alliances with other powergroups that have a similar goal or that require a deed done so they align with you.
You need to be smart, calculating, planing ahead and run mindgames of what would you do when something occures and prepare for such possibilities and be creative.
Amusingly, the things i described is how Banites and Zhentarim work( before 4e made a mockery out of them), alot of subtle operations until you have all pieces in place to move ahead and at the end go for the big prize in an everything or nothing attempt. If you fail, try to go underground and built up again from scratch. This could occupy people in such a campagin for alot of time. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 12:15:58
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
What about sending in smaller squads to incite strife and in-fighting in Cormyr before launching the main assault?
Inciting strife in Cormyr? That's like sending in smaller squads with buckets full of water to get the ocean wet |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 06:27:20
Find a way to intercept or control communication between military units. Get two to think each other has gone rogue and they're both being sent to quash rebellion. Do what you can to increase friendly fire and manipulate troop movements. True, they won't just wait around for orders and will act independently, but make sure the information they act on is the information you want them to act on.
Or use illusion spells to get one army to look like bandits or monsters to the other army. Good reason to assassinate those war wizards, make this a more viable plan.
Again, going back to my "long game" points earlier, get your people on the inside in as many levels as possible to get them to incite unrest from within. Encourage rivalries between military units. Foster suspicion. |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 05:20:39
What about sending in smaller squads to incite strife and in-fighting in Cormyr before launching the main assault? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 04:36:35
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
I don't think the OP is talking conquest of Cormyr, and you mention only a direct army tactic (when there are indirect and proxy forms of attack).
I wasn't speaking of conquest either. I was speaking of the need for military forces of his own to counter the military forces that will inevitably be deployed when this happens, whether it's small-scale or large.
K, save if you can cause the military to break down in which cause there is a different threat.
I think causing the military to break down would be pretty tough. Keep in mind that without instantaneous communications, each military unit is somewhat independent. Once the word gets out, a lot of commanders will deploy their troops as necessary -- they're not going to wait for orders from home. A Purple Dragon officer, hearing of turmoil in the Realm, is going to do what he can to support the nation, and depending on his location, may take some or all of his troops towards the nearest trouble spot.
They would certainly be uncoordinated, unless some friendly wizards (not necessarily War Wizards) helped with communications. But they'd still be rallying to the Crown, and having a lot of army troops headed your way is going to be something that's not easy to counter.
It's part of why I think causing all of Cormyr to break down is going to be so very tough -- there are just too many potential threats to counter. Picking one city -- or even better, an independent city-state, elsewhere, would be a lot easier. |
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