| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Caladan Brood |
Posted - 02 Mar 2013 : 21:28:17
We all pay our respects to all the gods of the Realms, of course (unless you want to spend eternity as part of a wall) - the question has probably been asked before (I delved into the many scrolls here at Candlekeep, but could not find it, however; so my apologies if I overlooked the correct scroll);
Which deity receives your devotion more than the others? I mean, we all send a quick prayer to Waukeen when we're in need of money, or thank Chauntea when there's food to be eaten...but which deity is your patron - aka, who is your favorite Forgotten Realms® deity?
Feel free to elaborate on the choice
 |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 04:44:09
pish , finder over oghma
Now as for my diety ...
Hmm... I want to look like the hipster of faerun.... so...
Nobanion |
| Sightless |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 03:46:19
Well, mine would be the broken God, Mine would be the broken God, and My DM was very right for selecting him for me, espcially since we first met when I took a beating for his son. |
| Emma Drake |
Posted - 08 May 2013 : 04:29:42
My patron deity is Mystra. Hands down. |
| Emma Drake |
Posted - 08 May 2013 : 04:25:48
quote:
Originally posted by Caladan Brood
Maybe I should go for a jack-of-all-trades kind of deity. Is there a bard-specific deity (I can't think of one)? One with which I can pursue all my interests for an eternity or two?
Oghma. |
| Doge |
Posted - 02 May 2013 : 13:38:36
Bane or Red Knight. I like tyranny and strategy. It's all about control. Haha. |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 02:26:54
I don't just have one patron deity. My patrons would probably be Corellon Larethian, Lebolas Enoreth, Hanali Celanil, Lurue, Vhaeraun; those are the only Realmsian gods that I can think of at the moment. |
| Rhymn |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 20:58:41
Akadi. I love doing what I want when I want to do it (within reason) and having as few responsibilities as possible.
I also have a deep appreciation for Sharess, Fenmarel, and Dugmaren. |
| Shair |
Posted - 27 Mar 2013 : 12:28:26
AS a DM: Sharess
As real me: Red Knight
AS a Player: Hoar
|
| Barastir |
Posted - 27 Mar 2013 : 10:44:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And people aren't drawn to the afterlife itself, they're drawn to the deity that offers it -- who shares their views.
Again, people don't plan that far ahead. People are not going to change who they are for something that won't happen for 50 years. It's human nature to be short-sighted.
People want to be supported NOW. The future will take care of itself. That's how the vast majority of people think.
This is the point of view I respectly tend to disagree. Different people have different points of view. And using your example, even while some choose to keep smoking and are OK about that, some must create excuses to keep smoking, some simply keep on but feel guilty, and some quit.
About religions, Ed makes clear that there is diversity even inside one religion (of course, the greater the god and more spread the religion, the bigger the chance of factions existing inside the church). Just like in RW there are some who seek religion from prosperity in this world while others seek a peaceful afterlife, different people will see the blessings of Talos, Tempus or Mystra in different ways. The sections on dogmas and religious orders of the Faiths & Avatars series give us a good idea of it.
EDIT: Of course, if you are in dire need, you will not only want, but need to be attended immediatly. I'm only saying each case is a case, and religion is a strong factor in the life of those in need (they strive for a better afterlife, and are more prone to surrender themselves to a deity, either because they understand the suffering of others, or are more ambitious to change their lives). About Bane, as I said, he doesn't need false propaganda, he only needs to make clear that the best among his tyrants will rule above the others, and he CAN do it. Of course, he will be the tyrant above all, but a competent follower would have a nice proxy status. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 22:50:06
People think in the short term, yes, and daily lives concern us more than what happens a decade in the future. I was never intending to imply that you structure your deity of choice around what afterlife that deity offers, but I think it does factor in, because, as I said, the afterlife attached to your deity of choice reflects that deity, and it thus comes full circle. And when people lose a loved on, the afterlife is a comfort for them (unless that person worshiped an evil deity, though there are exceptions to that, too. Mask's realm isn't that bad). The Realms offers many things that are for the "here and now", just look at Waterdeep. But, the Realms are filled with danger, and death is a likely possibility for many people. I would certainly want my loved ones to go to a good afterlife, and I would be more likely to worship Lathander than Cyric.
Arvandor and the knowledge of it is also a large part of elven culture. They are very much a "live life to the fullest" race, but it has been said that they are close to Arvandor. And for those who worship Tempus, their greatest desire is to die in battle, and to go to the Halls of Tempus. So, the afterlife plays a factor, because that is your fate when you die, and you will go to a certain one based on how you've lived your life--and thus what deity you follow, or whose ideologies you best reflect.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 22:18:26
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
So, basically you think that people wouldn't have a problem with Bane if he told them that he'll help them achieve UNLIMITED POWER in the mortal world, they just have to be a slave to him in the afterlife?
I'm sure he'd still scoop up a number of crazy followers. However, I don't think he'd end up as a major deity. Most people would be smart enough to realize the trade-off wasn't worth it.
Ah, but Bane wouldn't tell them that. He'd promise power now and in the hereafter.
Exactly! That's the point. No sane or logical person wants a crappy afterlife. Thus, the afterlife offered by a deity does factor into the decision making of most people.
Hence my previous hypothetical scenario. If two similar deities are competing for followers, and one deity offers a much better afterlife than the other - chances are the deity with the better afterlife will grow while the other will shrink.
Thus, once more, the afterlife offered by a deity matters.
Only if everything else was the same, which would not be the case.
And neither offer would matter, if the person's personality didn't already attract him or her to those deities. Therefore, personality trumps offers of the afterlife. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 21:54:19
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
So, basically you think that people wouldn't have a problem with Bane if he told them that he'll help them achieve UNLIMITED POWER in the mortal world, they just have to be a slave to him in the afterlife?
I'm sure he'd still scoop up a number of crazy followers. However, I don't think he'd end up as a major deity. Most people would be smart enough to realize the trade-off wasn't worth it.
Ah, but Bane wouldn't tell them that. He'd promise power now and in the hereafter.
Exactly! That's the point. No sane or logical person wants a crappy afterlife. Thus, the afterlife offered by a deity does factor into the decision making of most people.
Hence my previous hypothetical scenario. If two similar deities are competing for followers, and one deity offers a much better afterlife than the other - chances are the deity with the better afterlife will grow while the other will shrink.
Thus, once more, the afterlife offered by a deity matters. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 21:42:52
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
So, basically you think that people wouldn't have a problem with Bane if he told them that he'll help them achieve UNLIMITED POWER in the mortal world, they just have to be a slave to him in the afterlife?
I'm sure he'd still scoop up a number of crazy followers. However, I don't think he'd end up as a major deity. Most people would be smart enough to realize the trade-off wasn't worth it.
Ah, but Bane wouldn't tell them that. He'd promise power now and in the hereafter. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 20:12:15
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Let's create a hypothetical scenario. Let's say you have two demigods who share similar portfolios. They are both competing for the same worshipers - thus their worshipers share similar values. One deity promises a wonderful afterlife, and the other promises no afterlife at all. Which deity do you think will ultimately win out and ascend to lesser deity status?
I'm going to say the deity who promises the wonderful afterlife.
I don't think anyone is saying values aren't important. The values a deity holds and seek to promote in others influences strongly the type of afterlife they offer. So, naturally, people who hold a certain point of view are going to be drawn to certain afterlives more than others.
As a result, the type of afterlife offered is a huge part of the deal.
No deity is going to not offer an afterlife.
And people aren't drawn to the afterlife itself, they're drawn to the deity that offers it -- who shares their views.
Again, people don't plan that far ahead. People are not going to change who they are for something that won't happen for 50 years. It's human nature to be short-sighted.
People want to be supported NOW. The future will take care of itself. That's how the vast majority of people think.
The afterlife is not a factor in choosing a patron deity, or it is a small factor, at best.
So, basically you think that people wouldn't have a problem with Bane if he told them that he'll help them achieve UNLIMITED POWER in the mortal world, they just have to be a slave to him in the afterlife?
I'm sure he'd still scoop up a number of crazy followers. However, I don't think he'd end up as a major deity. Most people would be smart enough to realize the trade-off wasn't worth it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 18:54:11
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Let's create a hypothetical scenario. Let's say you have two demigods who share similar portfolios. They are both competing for the same worshipers - thus their worshipers share similar values. One deity promises a wonderful afterlife, and the other promises no afterlife at all. Which deity do you think will ultimately win out and ascend to lesser deity status?
I'm going to say the deity who promises the wonderful afterlife.
I don't think anyone is saying values aren't important. The values a deity holds and seek to promote in others influences strongly the type of afterlife they offer. So, naturally, people who hold a certain point of view are going to be drawn to certain afterlives more than others.
As a result, the type of afterlife offered is a huge part of the deal.
No deity is going to not offer an afterlife.
And people aren't drawn to the afterlife itself, they're drawn to the deity that offers it -- who shares their views.
Again, people don't plan that far ahead. People are not going to change who they are for something that won't happen for 50 years. It's human nature to be short-sighted.
People want to be supported NOW. The future will take care of itself. That's how the vast majority of people think.
The afterlife is not a factor in choosing a patron deity, or it is a small factor, at best. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 17:22:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And they are all going to be preaching more about how they can better your life, and less about the afterlife, because the afterlife is of lesser import than getting thru life.
That's the point, I think both are important. And in this RW religions are not that different: they offer changes to someone's life, and give promises to the afterlife, since even if it will happen only decades later, it will last for eternity (and maybe it's even easier for them to believe in afetrlife in a highly magical world where priests can talk with the dead and magicians can travel through the planes.
That's what I think, and of course some people will be more imediatist and others will think ahead. What I'm saying is that I don't think most of the Realmsian people are this or that, and religions play an important role in many lives, not only on clergy members.
I'm not arguing that religion doesn't play a role in people's lives. I'm arguing the idea that the afterlife is going to be a major factor in a person's choice of religion.
Look at this real-world example: cigarettes. It's widely publicized that smoking cigarettes can have an immediate effect on a person, and some pretty serious long-term effects. At least in the US, you literally cannot buy cigarettes -- or even see ads for them -- without being exposed to warnings about the impact to your health.
And yet, people continue to smoke. Knowing full well that in 10 or 20 years, they could be missing a lung or breathing thru a hole in their neck, they still go out of their way to purchase and buy cigarettes.
That's just talking about a decade or two. If people can't be bothered to make sure they'll be healthy in the short term, do you really think people will plan something literally decades away?
If people aren't worried about 20 years from now, how is 50 or 75 years from now going to have any impact?
That's the point I've been trying to make. People in the Realms choose deities based on their beliefs, not based on a description of something that may or may not be accurate and that they won't see for decades.
Let's create a hypothetical scenario. Let's say you have two demigods who share similar portfolios. They are both competing for the same worshipers - thus their worshipers share similar values. One deity promises a wonderful afterlife, and the other promises no afterlife at all. Which deity do you think will ultimately win out and ascend to lesser deity status?
I'm going to say the deity who promises the wonderful afterlife.
I don't think anyone is saying values aren't important. The values a deity holds and seek to promote in others influences strongly the type of afterlife they offer. So, naturally, people who hold a certain point of view are going to be drawn to certain afterlives more than others.
As a result, the type of afterlife offered is a huge part of the deal. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 16:33:40
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And they are all going to be preaching more about how they can better your life, and less about the afterlife, because the afterlife is of lesser import than getting thru life.
That's the point, I think both are important. And in this RW religions are not that different: they offer changes to someone's life, and give promises to the afterlife, since even if it will happen only decades later, it will last for eternity (and maybe it's even easier for them to believe in afetrlife in a highly magical world where priests can talk with the dead and magicians can travel through the planes.
That's what I think, and of course some people will be more imediatist and others will think ahead. What I'm saying is that I don't think most of the Realmsian people are this or that, and religions play an important role in many lives, not only on clergy members.
I'm not arguing that religion doesn't play a role in people's lives. I'm arguing the idea that the afterlife is going to be a major factor in a person's choice of religion.
Look at this real-world example: cigarettes. It's widely publicized that smoking cigarettes can have an immediate effect on a person, and some pretty serious long-term effects. At least in the US, you literally cannot buy cigarettes -- or even see ads for them -- without being exposed to warnings about the impact to your health.
And yet, people continue to smoke. Knowing full well that in 10 or 20 years, they could be missing a lung or breathing thru a hole in their neck, they still go out of their way to purchase and buy cigarettes.
That's just talking about a decade or two. If people can't be bothered to make sure they'll be healthy in the short term, do you really think people will plan something literally decades away?
If people aren't worried about 20 years from now, how is 50 or 75 years from now going to have any impact?
That's the point I've been trying to make. People in the Realms choose deities based on their beliefs, not based on a description of something that may or may not be accurate and that they won't see for decades. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 14:58:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Because there are literally dozens of deities in the Faerūnian pantheon. It's not a case of only one or two options after death, (...)
Even in a large city, chances are the only afterlives you'll know about are those of deities with temples in your city, and maybe a handful of others from traveling priests.
Of course their knowledge will be limited by the local religions, or by contact with traveling priests. I'm not saying they will know how the realm of each deity is, but that they will have an idea of the deity they are currently following the most, and a glimpse on other deities whose clergy presents itself through formal churches or missionary priests. And if someone gets interested in a priests' religion, the priest(s) will gladly teach, to win new follower to his/her/their deity.
Well, yes, but that's still only going to be a dozen deities, at most. And they are all going to be preaching more about how they can better your life, and less about the afterlife, because the afterlife is of lesser import than getting thru life. So it's not anywhere close to the Norse or Christian religions.
This may be true for some faiths in the Realms. In particular, I think faiths like Loviatar, Umberlee, and Bane would be more focused on life than on the afterlife. After all, if your afterlife sucks you don't really want everyone focused on that fact. Even some more neutral deities, such as Helm and Torm would likely focus on life over death, simply because their focus is much more immediate.
That being said, it makes sense for other deities to focus on the afterlife. I imagine Tempus basically advertising his afterlife the same way the Norse did, just as an example. I also imagine Sune, Sharess, Tymora, and Lliira using their afterlives as a way to entice new followers into the fold.
I think you are overlooking some important things. For example, I agree that a decent chunk of the deities in the Realms wouldn't be known by a lot of people. Deities such as Shiallia and Gwaeron Windstrom - for example - are very localized deities. However, I think you're overlooking how the pantheon is structured.
The FR Pantheon is divided into groups of deities that are interconnected. Rather than having one cohesive pantheon like the Mulhorandi or the Norse, which is heavily influenced by culture, the Faerūnian pantheon has mini-pantheons within itself. (In fact, the Faerūnian pantheon doesn't exist per-say, in the same way the Mulhorandi pantheon does, it is just a marker indicating that a deity is worshiped in a certain geographical location.)
For example, you have the House of the Triad. It contains the following deities: Helm, Ilmater, Torm, Tyr, Siamorphe, and Bahamut. You're going to find that these deities are spoken about together with some commonality depending on where you live. If you enter into a Temple of Tyr somewhere, you're almost certainly going to find Shrines to Ilmater, and Torm there as well. Such temples may also include shrines to Siamorphe if you live in a place such as Waterdeep or Tethyr, and Bahamut if you live in Damara.
So, when you interact with one faith there is the chance of coming into contact with others. This isn't monotheism so having a temple and even priests who talk about the virtues of other deities - especially deities closely aligned with their own - isn't something negative, it would be a common everyday practice.
The same is true for the Brightwater Ladies: Lliira, Sharess, Sune, Tymora, and Waukeen. Go into a temple of Sune and chances are you're going to find a shrine to the other deities. This is not an accident, as the ladies have many things in common and their portfolios compliment each other.
For example, Sune's faith is always going to prosper best in places that are free, wealthy, and hold hedonistic views. Waukeen's faith is always going to prosper best in places that are free, that value risk taking (Tymora), and hold hedonistic views (you need something to spend your wealth on).
The ladies have very synergistic portfolios - as is the case in most cases where deities are grouped together on the same plane. The House of Knowledge, Fury's Heart, the Gates of the Moon, Dweomerheart, etc.
The point I'm trying to make is that while there are a lot of deities, most of them have grouped together in mini-pantheons and share a common afterlife. Thus, it's possible to have never heard of Shiallia and Gwaeron Windstrom, but they both still exist in the House of Nature. Thus, if you worship Silvanus and happen to stumble upon a glade that has a shrine both to Silvanus and Shiallia it wouldn't be difficult to figure out exactly what type of afterlife she offers. The same is true for someone who worships Oghma, but may have never heard of Denier.
There are exceptions to this rule, of course, such as Cyric - who doesn't play nice with anyone - and deities who make their home on more generic planes such as the Plane of Shadow like Shar and Mask. However, these are the exceptions rather than the rule, as the vast majority of the gods operate as I describe above. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 14:12:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And they are all going to be preaching more about how they can better your life, and less about the afterlife, because the afterlife is of lesser import than getting thru life.
That's the point, I think both are important. And in this RW religions are not that different: they offer changes to someone's life, and give promises to the afterlife, since even if it will happen only decades later, it will last for eternity (and maybe it's even easier for them to believe in afetrlife in a highly magical world where priests can talk with the dead and magicians can travel through the planes.
That's what I think, and of course some people will be more imediatist and others will think ahead. What I'm saying is that I don't think most of the Realmsian people are this or that, and religions play an important role in many lives, not only on clergy members. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 10:45:16
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Because there are literally dozens of deities in the Faerūnian pantheon. It's not a case of only one or two options after death, (...)
Even in a large city, chances are the only afterlives you'll know about are those of deities with temples in your city, and maybe a handful of others from traveling priests.
Of course their knowledge will be limited by the local religions, or by contact with traveling priests. I'm not saying they will know how the realm of each deity is, but that they will have an idea of the deity they are currently following the most, and a glimpse on other deities whose clergy presents itself through formal churches or missionary priests. And if someone gets interested in a priests' religion, the priest(s) will gladly teach, to win new follower to his/her/their deity.
Well, yes, but that's still only going to be a dozen deities, at most. And they are all going to be preaching more about how they can better your life, and less about the afterlife, because the afterlife is of lesser import than getting thru life. So it's not anywhere close to the Norse or Christian religions. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 10:33:28
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Because there are literally dozens of deities in the Faerūnian pantheon. It's not a case of only one or two options after death, (...)
Even in a large city, chances are the only afterlives you'll know about are those of deities with temples in your city, and maybe a handful of others from traveling priests.
Of course their knowledge will be limited by the local religions, or by contact with traveling priests. I'm not saying they will know how the realm of each deity is, but that they will have an idea of the deity they are currently following the most, and a glimpse on other deities whose clergy presents itself through formal churches or missionary priests. And if someone gets interested in a priests' religion, the priest(s) will gladly teach, to win new follower to his/her/their deity. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 02:32:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Besides, how is the common person going to know exactly what afterlife is offered by every deity? It's not like there's a catalog that handed to every person on their 16th birthday.
We know what the norse think of the afterlife, Ragnarok and what comes after that, what christians think of apocalypde, new earth and new heaven, muslims and the seventy virgins, and so on. In the Realms, we know the otherwordly domains of Sūne (Evergold), Selūne (Gates of the Moon), Tempus Halls... Why would it be so different?
Because there are literally dozens of deities in the Faerūnian pantheon. It's not a case of only one or two options after death, it's a case of a few dozen different afterlives.
And again, people aren't given catalogs. The Realms doesn't have an internet for people to look up afterlives, and you can't simply mail all the deities and ask for a brochure. Calling 1-800-GODS R US won't work, either.
Even in a large city, chances are the only afterlives you'll know about are those of deities with temples in your city, and maybe a handful of others from traveling priests.
There's also the fact that, from what we know of previous sources on the subject -- like Faiths & Avatars -- that the commoner religious types who regularly attend church sessions and/or engage daily with priestly types will likely garner a more definitive account of their particular patron deity's afterlife. Thus, so informed, debates about the nature of the afterlife and one religion's take on the concept when compared with another deity's, is bound to pass regularly through the communal grapevine of daily chatter and folktalk in a small village or city. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 23:56:58
Goodly and Neutral Clerics and other people with great religious knowledge and education will know and share more about the after life then thier own part of it. Sure they will encourage people to follow the will orlf thier God, but they also don't want a bad fit either. A priestess of Sune will sing the praises of her Goddess, but she's still more likely to send someone obsessed with war and battle with little interest in art or beauty to a priest of Tempus or even Sharess then try and convert someone to a faith they're ill suited too.
That being said most people in the Realms will graviate towards one of the predominate faiths in the region, its what thier raised in and what geared towards thier class and status. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 18:58:24
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Besides, how is the common person going to know exactly what afterlife is offered by every deity? It's not like there's a catalog that handed to every person on their 16th birthday.
We know what the norse think of the afterlife, Ragnarok and what comes after that, what christians think of apocalypde, new earth and new heaven, muslims and the seventy virgins, and so on. In the Realms, we know the otherwordly domains of Sūne (Evergold), Selūne (Gates of the Moon), Tempus Halls... Why would it be so different?
Because there are literally dozens of deities in the Faerūnian pantheon. It's not a case of only one or two options after death, it's a case of a few dozen different afterlives.
And again, people aren't given catalogs. The Realms doesn't have an internet for people to look up afterlives, and you can't simply mail all the deities and ask for a brochure. Calling 1-800-GODS R US won't work, either.
Even in a large city, chances are the only afterlives you'll know about are those of deities with temples in your city, and maybe a handful of others from traveling priests. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 13:18:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Besides, how is the common person going to know exactly what afterlife is offered by every deity? It's not like there's a catalog that handed to every person on their 16th birthday.
We know what the norse think of the afterlife, Ragnarok and what comes after that, what christians think of apocalypde, new earth and new heaven, muslims and the seventy virgins, and so on. In the Realms, we know the otherwordly domains of Sūne (Evergold), Selūne (Gates of the Moon), Tempus Halls... Why would it be so different? The eternity a deity or pantheon offers, IMHO, is a strong part of his, her or its way of attracting believers. And of course, the paradise for followers of Bane may be cruel, but maybe they believe that, if they are really good in what they do, they will be proxies that rule above other fellow believers... So, if they would be relaxed tyrants, doing only what they need to live their tyrannic life, they strive to be the most ruthless tyrants, to conquest the favor of their deity and continue as the ideals of Bane in their afterlife.
I see a balance between chosing a deity that fits their interests - although, as I cited, not always someone can choose a life that best reflects one's ideals - and acting to please that deity or the ideals behind him/her/it. Even a guardian is not always perfect, and depending on his deity's nature, maybe the God will not count very failure you had in your duty, or you will attend to a temple to ask for forgiveness after your failure, make offerings, or so. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 17:10:36
Part of Sharess' teaching is to spread pleasure, so it doesn't have to be all about drugs and booze after, it could just as easily be helping people in need or some other selfless act of causing someone pleasure. Also she's the Goddess of Sensation so trying new things in general would be encouraged. And some drugs would still be forbidden to Sharessians, aka anything that endangers the soul. Sharess encourages hedonism and utilitarianism, not stupidity and spiritual suicide. So that Aybssal Drug would be a no no, as would that agony drug.
So a Sharessian might have a party or feast, but the next day the left overs would be given to the poor.
I'd pick Sharess. Fun and far deeper and complex then others give her credit for. I mean she's one part Jesse Jane (pornstar), one part elvish Apsara (Zandilar), one part egyptian Che (Bast back when she was a war Goddess revolting against Imaskari repression), one part Garfield/beast cult (giant tabby cat Fediliadae), formerly a God of Warfare, Nomads, and who knows what else and current Goddess of Cats, Lust, Sensation, Brothels, and hedonism.
Complex and rich history. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 04:16:15
This is off topic, but I have to comment on the mention of Shinto. Iāve read some things on Shinto (though I am by no means an expert). It is quite true that their emphasis is on this life, not the afterlife, but they do believe in an afterlife. The soul, known as tama, after a period of time, joins with the family kami (loosely translated as god or spirit), and eventually merge with other kami. They are very much a part of nature. I am pulling this from the top of my head, and since this isnāt the place to talk about it, Iāll stop. Just had to say [ļ]
Anyway some deities can be very selfish, but they will also look at a personās morals/ideologies. Yes, a deity is only going to choose you if your actions are genuine. I could give all the lip service to a certain god, but if I donāt live my life by the ideologies of that deity, said deity is not likely going to take me into his or her afterlife.
Continuing with example others have used, the farmer would pray to Chauntea for a good crop, but he could follow the ideologies of Sharess. This does not mean however that Chauntea will not listen to his prayers for a good season. I could not be a follower of Tymora, but she might still grant me luck if I ask for it. I think there is a distinction between lip service and praying to a certain deity in a given situation. I could be that farmer who believes in the ways of Sharess, but if I am having a bad crop, or I just need them to grow, I could be genuine in my prayers to Chauntea, and therefore she may grant my prayers.
I think that, in the Realms, people in fact do have a better idea of the kind of afterlife awaits them. Most elves know what Arvandor is like, for example. And as people have said, the afterlife you want isnāt the only thing that will determine which god to follow, but it can certainly be a factor, as I have said, becauseāas others have said--that deityās realm will reflect that deityās personality, ideologies, etc.
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| Aldrick |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 01:29:55
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
If you were to pick the worship of a certain deity because you thought his afterlife sounded rather posh, and you began to ostensibly pursue that deity's stated goals, would you necessarily be of the same heart and mind as that god? Would you truly be following your own personality and aims? Or would you be living a lie, but hoping that it eventually became the truth? How is a Realmsian god supposed to evaluate you, in such a situation: by your intentions, or your actual results? Does she judge you based on how you hope to finally turn out, or based on the inconsistent, conflicted position that you're in right now?
The type of afterlife offered by a deity almost always is highly influenced by the values and ideals they espouse. Thus, it's highly unlikely that you'd align yourself with a deity in which those things conflicted.
Why would you want an afterlife Sharess offered, if you did not share her values and ideals? If you're an authoritarian fascist, for example, Brightwater - especially with Lliira there - is going to be your hell. You're not going to want to go there.
That being said, your question is a good one, and it has an answer. Those who do not truly believe in their deities ideals or values, but instead only offer lip service will end up as Faithless who will be put into the Wall.
The 3E FRCS is clear on this:
quote:
While most souls wander the Fugue Plane until their deity calls them, the Faithless and the False are compelled to enter the city and be judged by Kelemvor. The Faithless firmly denied any faith or only gave lip service to the gods for most of their lives without truly believing. The False intentionally betrayed a faith they believed in and to which they had made a personal commitment.
Striving for the rewards of an afterlife is not the same thing as only offering lip service. Using myself as an example, my goal would be to get into Brightwater. As a result I'd select my patron to be either Sharess or Lliira. I'd pray to them both regularly. I believe strongly that a life of drudgery, tediousness, and suffering is not a life worth living. I believe strongly in freedom, especially individual liberty, and I am strongly opposed to those who try to use power and authority to suppress or harm others. In real life, I advocate against sexual shame and guilt that people frequently develop as a result of our sex-phobic culture. I consider myself part of the sex positive movement which is a social and philosophical movement with the view that all consensual human sexual activities are fundamentally healthy, and that all people should be free to experiment with their sexuality without shame, guilt, or threats of punishment. The only caveat to this open mindedness is the encouragement of safer sex practices.
These are just part of my core values. If I were transported into the Realms, I'd still have these values, even if I were a farmer. It would not be lip service for me to worship Sharess or Lliira.
...and yet, my motivation for worshiping them primarily would STILL be to get into Brightwater. I don't need Sharess or Lliira to hold the values that I hold. They are irrelevant in that sense.
Thus, my only purpose in serving them is because I both agree with their values (which I already hold - regardless of them), and because I believe Brightwater is the best afterlife offered.
As an atheist in real life, imagining myself in the Realms is somewhat silly. I'd see the gods exactly as you describe them "selfish, petty, and immature", but they would be a fact of nature. It'd be like being angry at a hurricane. It's not going to make it go away.
So, I have to make do. I have to look for which deity most aligns with my values, and who is going to offer me the best reward when I kick the bucket. After all, I'm going to be stuck with them forever, so the choice I'd make should definitely be a good one. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 00:34:26
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
It seems that only a selfish, petty, immature deity would want people to love that deity personally.
IMO, you just described every deity in the Realms. 
Let me quote the end of Waterdeep, the last book in the Avatar Trilogy.
quote:
"I know who took the Tablets of Fate," Ao replied, silencing Helm with a curt wave of his hand. "Bane and Myrkul have paid for their offenses with their lives. But all of you were guilty, causing worshipers to build wasteful temples, to devote themselves so slavishly to your name that they could not feed their children, even to spill their own blood upon your corrupt altars - all so you could impress each other with your hold over these so-called inferior creatures. Your behavior is enough to make me wish I had not created you."
Ao paused and let his listeners consider his words. Finally, he resumed speaking. "But I did create you and not without purpose. Now, I am going to demand that you fulfill that purpose. From this day forward, your true power will depend upon the number and devotion of your followers."
From one end of the Realms to another, the gods gasped in astonishment. In far off Tsulogoi, Talos the Raging One growled, "Depend on mortals?" The one good eye of his youthful, broad-shouldered avatar was opened wide in outrage and shock.
"Depend on them and more," Ao returned. "Without worshipers, you will wither, even perish entirely. And after what has passed in the Realms, it will not be easy to win the faith of mortals. You will have to earn it by serving them."
In sunny Tesiir, a beautiful woman with silky scarlet hair and fiery red-brown eyes looked as though she were going to retch. "Serve them?" Sune asked.
"I have spoken!" Ao replied.
The first paragraph pretty much lays it out in no uncertain terms.
You and Wooly are advocating for Ao's ideal. I'm simply pointing to the reality of how the deities are portrayed and act. Especially, since as is shown - their power is directly linked to the number of faithful they have... it makes sense to entice them with gifts and promised rewards in the afterlife. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 00:19:35
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're still going with the assumption that everyone knows exactly what each deity offers in the afterlife, and that not a single deity lies about that.
I will definitely agree with you that some deities lie about their afterlife. However, by and large I think it's pretty obvious which deity is more likely to lie. Additionally, there are other clergy who are going to lie or tell the truth about the afterlife a certain deity offers.
Cyric can swear up and down that the afterlife he offers is made of all sugar, spice, and everything nice - but everyone knows that he's the god of lies. So, when that priest of Oghma tells you of the horrors that will face you in serving Cyric, who are you most likely to believe? A servant of a deity who values truth and knowledge above all else, or a servant of the deity of lies?
So, while I agree that deities (and their clergy) will lie, I disagree that people do not have any conception of what an afterlife will offer.
Besides, whether or not you buy into the lie is irrelevant. If you believe that all who worship Cyric are elevated to greatness, and shall serve under him as his angelic servants who will rule the mortal world once the Dark Sun has slain the last of the other deities... well... that's perfectly fine. You're still making a choice based on an afterlife, even if it is a poor and misinformed choice.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And you're also ignoring the basic premise of a patron deity. Doing nothing more than offering prayers is not what it takes to earn the patron deity's favor. You've got to live and support their ideals and portfolio, not just offer prayers. The gods want more than just lip service. You can pray to Tymora all day every day, but if you don't take risks, she's not paying attention to you.
That's exactly what I stated. Hence why in my examples the farmer attempts to throw a festival in honor of Sharess once per year, and the dock worker gives money to someone to enjoy the Festhall. They are actively promoting goals and aims favorable to Sharess, that serve her interests, and thus serve her.
The average faithful follower of Tymora isn't going to spend their every waking moment taking unnecessary risks and testing their luck. The average follower of Lliira isn't going to engage in rebellion to overthrow every noble so that freedom can reign for everyone. The average follower of Sharess does not spend all of their time in the Festhall drinking and participating in orgies.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If you're happiest growing things, and spend all of your free time in a garden, then it doesn't matter how much you pray to Sharess -- Chauntea is your patron deity. If you are a soldier, utterly dedicated to serving your nation, incapable of not doing your duty, then your patron saint is Torm, even if you're spending all of your free time reading in the local library. If, on the other hand, you are a soldier because it's the only way to support your studies, then your patron saint is Oghma.
It's not just worship. It's how you live your life. It's personality and lifestyle, not just words.
The key phrase that you used is "if you're happiest". Obviously, if you are happiest farming, and you love it so much that you hope that you'd get to work the land even in the afterlife... then yes, Chauntea might be a suitable patron for you. That in no way contradicts anything that anyone has said.
In fact with your soldier example you just restated exactly what Alystra Illianniis wrote.
That's exactly the point we're making. Just because you're a farmer doesn't mean your patron deity is Chauntea. Do you pray to Chauntea? Absolutely, and most likely very frequently. However, that doesn't mean she's your patron.
The phrase you used - "if you're happiest" - is exactly the point. You're going to want a patron that you can live with serving, and who offers you an afterlife that will make you happy.
If a deity says, "WORSHIP ME OR I WILL MAKE YOUR LIFE SUCK!" Well, you may worship them, but only to placate them. That isn't going to make them your patron. If you believe that worshiping a deity will result in a horrific afterlife, what are the chances that you're going to want that deity to be your patron? Even the most backward country hick knows that they're going to die someday, (unless they're Dennis ) so they know the choice they make in a patron deity is going to matter when it comes to an afterlife.
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