| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Laeknir |
Posted - 16 Feb 2013 : 16:35:15
Ed and THO just gave a really nice, detailed response to a question of mine, over on his "Ask Ed" thread:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, all.
I bring you the latest words from Ed of the Greenwood, this time in response to this, from Laeknir: "I have an unusual question - been percolating in the back of my mind for a while. From a sales / real world perspective I understand why this wouldn't have happened. But from an in-world perspective, particularly Elminster's, I'm curious why he never went this route:
After Mystra's murder, which led to the spellplague and so forth, why did Elminster never use one of the known time-gates to go back in time and stop it from happening? Elminster had to know of these gates, and with Mystra dead (or functionally so) there was no god or goddess to enforce the "policy" on time travel. Or is this a kind of catch-22 thing, where even if El had gone back in time, the Mystra or Mystryl alive in that past would have been deaf or unresponsive to the future Elminster's warnings? As goddess of time, I'd find it hard to believe she'd plug her ears to such a warning.
Or did Elminster try it - and it failed for some reason? If so, what might that be?
Perhaps more importantly, is there some reason or temporal magic issue that might prevent a group of post-Spellplague adventurers from utilizing a time gate and attempting to create an alternate timeline? Do Mystryl's chronomancy travel rules apply whether a god or goddess of magic exists?"
Ed replies:
Ah, a good question indeed.
First, I'd like to say to Markustay (re. "Or it could just be that post-plague the time portals all 'went on the fritz'.") that although many gates/portals "went wild" or only functioned intermittently or even faded away or blew up as the Spellplague raged, they didn't all go awry. All "time portals" DID stop functioning, and attempts to use them by spell resulted in deadly "wild" magic rebounding on the casters, so people stopped trying, and therefore it's unknown if they are all still "gone." (I would suspect that they are.)
Second, the short answer to your second-last question, Laeknir, is that if a group of post-Spellplague adventurers can find a functioning time gate and use it without destroying themselves, an alternate timeline is all they could create, no matter what they do (in other words, they can't affect the "prime Realms" they departed from, regardless of what they do). (In other words, Markustay was right, in what he said in his post.)
Third, to answer your last question, Mystryl's rules of chronomancy apply so long as a Weave (in any form: decaying, Shadow Weave [as it's not independent, but depends on the Weave to "hold it up/together," no matter what condition the Weave itself is in]) exists. As we've seen in the Spellplague, the Weave persisted (badly damaged) with Mystra gone. Chronomancy (as a profession/skill) itself is only possible within Realmspace with the Weave to anchor it; without a Weave time travel is truly random and no "returns" are possible; it's a one-way trip to an unknown destination date. So you can't have time travel in the Realms without a Weave, and the "rules" are of the Weave, just expressed formally by Mystryl (she didn't make them, she merely described them for mortals) - - but you don't actually need a god/goddess of magic (or chronomancy) for the rules to pertain. Or perhaps it would be better to say the rules are of Ao and the (essential nature of the) Realms, not at the level of mere divinity.
Elminster didn't attempt what you suggest because he knew it wouldn't work, and because all Chosen are expressly forbidden to engage in attempts at chronomancy - - because all such attempts strain/stress/endanger the Weave. Keeping the Weave stable and flourishing is one of the primary tasks of the Chosen; El would never try to harm the Weave. The prohibition may be "policy" but the reasons for it are something anyone attuned to the Weave (as all Chosen are) know, FEEL (harming the nearby Weave causes actual pain and nausea to a Chosen), and would never offend against.
Neither the Time of Troubles nor the events that led to the Spellplague would have happened (or been necessary) if deities or anyone else could just go back in time and arrange things to their liking/advantage. Nor would the leapfrogging of rival deities to get back in time before or after other deities who've already done so to meddle (so the rivals could out-meddle them) ever cease. Ao knows this, and so the Weave itself prevents chronomancy that affects the Weave. (Certain mortals may think differently or honestly believe differently due to their own experiences, but that usually means they've been deceived, gone insane, or created their own new timeline without realizing it.)
Mind-numbing and circular, yes, but . . . you asked. :} Many priests in the Realms have pondered such things, and ended up with headaches.
So saith Ed. Explaining some of the limits of chronomancy clearly for us all, for the first time. Let the enlightenment spread.
love,
THO
I thought this would be a really interesting topic to expand upon and examine more, but such a discussion would be better placed in General.
These answers have given me a number of really interesting adventure ideas, and avenues for further thought. My Realms differ quite a lot from the published Realms, so I'll need to adapt this somewhat, but I like the core concepts here a lot. I don't have an AO, for instance, there was no ToT or Spellplague in my Realms, I prefer lots of localized gods/pantheons rather than having "core deities" with varying avatars for different cultures, and so I still use the original Mystryl - but she's only a deity for northwest Faerun cultures. But saying that, I like the concepts Ed and THO presented quite a lot.
There really do have to be limits on time travel, otherwise the gods would continually fight over changing things and nothing would ever get done or have any permanence. So having limitations on time and tying it to the Weave make a lot of sense rather than tying time to a particular god or portfolio.
At the same time, it's hard to resist the story possibilities involved with time travel because they can be immensely fun. Star Trek is somewhat messy when it comes to this, because in some cases they dramatically change reality (the core timeline; see for example, Yesterday's Enterprise) but in other cases say that "changes" induced by the main characters were merely pre-destined events that were "required" to happen. Then they also say that alternate timelines also exist (Abrams Trek '09, in particular), and also different quantum realities, and even "Mirror, Mirror" realities; so they have a lot going on and it can be confusing what you're seeing.
I definitely like the "reveal" in recent novels (and in Ed and THO's reply here) that the Weave is not dependent on a Mystra but has a constancy of its own. It was damaged and is frayed, but it was not destroyed as the 4E FRCG stated. Mystra therefore is more of a caretaker and manager of the Weave, and its guardian. She did not make up the rules that limit chronomancy, rather they are inherent to the world/reality of the Realms itself (or AO laid them out, if you prefer).
I like it. I like it a lot. On the one hand, it verifies that alternate realities do exist (and perhaps can be explored), but on the other it means that the "prime" reality is what it is and can't be modified or erased. Or perhaps there is no "prime" at all, but many different quantum realities that are all distinct and separate. Or in the final analysis, it's all speculation by sagacious scribes and learned scholars, and "real" is more defined by where you are rather than some kind of absolute truth.
A lot to consider! We've been given a nice DM tool, and the uncertain narrator is BACK! What was "true" as stated in any campaign guide is no longer necessarily true, and I absolutely LOVE that.  |
| 27 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 21:08:58
@Markustay - Ah! I know it well, although the only version I've paged through is the original three module version (which I still have on the '1E' shelf in ye old gaming basement). I know the re-do was 'set' in the FR, but since I never bought (it as it lacked the FR logo so I assumed it didn't have much canon info in it), I guess I never saw the lore. Well, now I know what my FR collection seems to be missing...Lol.
What did it say relative to the gods from Earth (outside what we know about the Egyptian gods)? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 18:52:48
Desert of Desolation.
Sorry. 
Sadly... like everything else... I no longer have that module. I just realized (doing a quick web search for it) that it doesn't seem to have the FR logo on it. Strange - I know the original three adventures were not FR-specific, but the adaption into one large adventure arc made it so. |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 18:02:41
@Markustay - "* Nearly all Earth religions have made it over at one point or another, but most don't last, and only the Pharoanic pantheon survived mostly intact. In most cases, individual interlopers merely picked up new portfolios and went their own ways (like Tyr), some even taking new names (like Sune). In the DoD super-module, we see chambers filled with 'temples' (I think of them as rooms in a museum) to many different religions, including many of Earth's more popular ones. This indicates that the Imaskari were not only aware of the belief systems of the people they encountered on other worlds, but also made a point of doing major research into them."
Where is the DoD super-module? Are you talking Dungeon of Death? The 2E booklet or something else? I'm obviously curious about such matters... |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 15:39:01
'Cronos of Orva' could've actually been an aspect or splinter avatar of the primordial Chronos, who could very well have been this 'god of all time' at that time (meaning he was times guardian in Torils crystalsphere).
Various multiplanar groups are vigilant for temporal breaches (mostly within their own crystal spheres but some have a greater reach than that). There are Monitors of Infinity (2nd edition Chronomancer) from Greyhawk's past and future who are tasked with protecting Oerths historic timeline. They were revealed to be controlled by the supercool continuity diety called Cyndor.
The Lady of Pain has a distaste for chronomancy, so if its practisioners travel through Sigil at any point in their carreer they tend to dissapear forever...
Weren't there inevitables (those living 'outsider machines' such as Marut) released in print that have no other purpose than hunting down 'time bandits'? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 14:07:16
"Cronos" of ancient Orva is just an (humanized?) aspect of Labelas?
I suppose the Seldarine arrived from the Feywild (or from ElfSpace?) onto then-Abeir-Toril along with their elven peoples ... if so, this Lebelas/Cronos would be an interloper who is very old indeed but not the god of all time. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 12:12:18
One of my 'fixes' for that was that I said a very old - now unheard of - 'nickname' for Labelas was 'Crow Nose' (taken directly from some truly ancient Elven myths). Apparently, he had a gnome-like proboscis. 
Because of this, many years later, when Realms scholars came across references to a 'Kronos' in other theology (brought over by slaves rounded up by the Imaskari*), they mistakenly thought this was another spelling of 'Crow-Nose', Labelas' other name.
You see, originally Labelas did not have time in his portfolio (at least not in Faerūn), but when the folk of Orva started to call upon this deity in this aspect (being the scholars that made the errant connection), like any dutiful god (who wanted more worshipers) he answered. In the core Elven Pantheon Labelas was in charge of 'the keeping of history', and in this aspect he was often depicted as a wizened old man with a very long beard (something in and of itself unusual for an elf). This was another point of confusion, since not only was his true portfoio - 'keeper of history' related to time, but he looked a lot like the human multiversal concept of 'Father Time'.
All of these factors lead to him being worshiped (in the Realms) as a deity of time, but several others have parts of 'time' in their porfolios as well, and Mystra is the true deity of Time on Toril (or rather, the protector of the Timestream, which is probably closely related to the Weave itself).
That was my homebrew 'fix' for all that - I hadn't found the right place for it, so I might as well present it here and now.
* Nearly all Earth religions have made it over at one point or another, but most don't last, and only the Pharoanic pantheon survived mostly intact. In most cases, individual interlopers merely picked up new portfolios and went their own ways (like Tyr), some even taking new names (like Sune). In the DoD super-module, we see chambers filled with 'temples' (I think of them as rooms in a museum) to many different religions, including many of Earth's more popular ones. This indicates that the Imaskari were not only aware of the belief systems of the people they encountered on other worlds, but also made a point of doing major research into them. |
| daarkknight |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 02:21:11
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Where is Cronos mentioned in Realmslore, Razz?
There is also a reference to Cronos and Orva in the 2E adventure, "Four From Cormyr." One of the four adventures in the accessory takes place in Orvaskyte Keep, which is located in the Vast Swamp. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 15:37:42
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Where is Cronos mentioned in Realmslore, Razz?
'Tis in Demihuman Deities:- "Likewise, a long forgotten-aspect of Labelas, known as Chronos, Karonis, or Kronus, was worshipped centuries ago in the tiny realm of Orva, now sunk beneath the waters of the Vast Swamp of eastern Cormyr." |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 14:34:51
Where is Cronos mentioned in Realmslore, Razz? |
| Razz |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 14:33:08
Dunno if anyone pointed this out, but there was a god of time in the Realms at one point, with a worship center in ancient Cormyr. The deity was called (yeah here it comes) "Cronos". No one knows what happened to the deity or its servants (yet) and it was originally a human-worshiped deity.
Labelas Enoreth, the elven god of time, subsumed the deity meaning any worshipers still out there are serving the Cronos aspect of Labelas.
I sure wish there was source material that focused primarily on gods of the past, their servants, creed and dogma and what happened to them. Though I would rather see the monstrous pantheons written up first before any of that. |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 20:55:25
@Laeknir - Well, I don't want to hijack this thread (any more than I have already), so I'll keep my reply somewhat brief (compared to my usual posts...) and you can PM me for further info (I'm also pretty sure I've had a 'Play Yourself' chat in a prior thread somewhere on the site that may have answered many of your questions).
I've been doing these games for almost 20 years now (it's sort of my one trick pony), so I've gotten the character creation process down to something of a science. So much so, that when I run the game with total strangers (like I did at GenCon last year, and will be doing again this year), it only takes me about 45 minutes to an hour to get a group of six ready to game. It helps when people have a realistic assessment of their actual abilities, but most game systems make it fairly easy to create inexperienced characters. I use Pathfinder presently, but I used 2E for years to great effect. Physical stats are by far the easiest to measure (so much so that I generally hold off on assigning mental stats for a few sessions to more accurately measure players) as is basic proficiency with weapons and what not.
Most people simply end up being fairly fragile NPC classes to start (Expert class in Pathfinder for example) and use their wits, and most importantly their knowledge of the Realms, to survive to the point where they can get basic training in actual character classes. I also usually give them a 'special destiny' associated with why they are on the Realms from Earth in the first place, and that allows for DM created 'thumb on the survivability scale' meddling like the 'Marks' I reference above. Not surprisingly, people tend to choose Fighter, Rogue, or Wizard classes to train in from the locals (with Rogue being the most common, followed by Wizard).
One of my favorite things about this sort of game is that the players usually have pretty mediocre stats (well, their intel tends to be above average, but we live in a world where there is a premium on that stat) and end up playing (and enjoying!) characters that they would normally toss into the 're-roll' trash bin if they were playing a regular game. That, and the characters have a built in three dimensionality that you just don't get from 'Delvin the Dwarf'. You know your own deep seated motivations, fears, desires, and tastes MUCH better than you could ever know a character. That leads to little things like characters who won't EVER use any form of transformative magics because they are profoundly skeeved out over the very idea of their form becoming unfixed and changing shape or wizards who won't cast offensive fire or acid magics because they can't deal with idea of all that burning flesh. It's amusing.
Anyway, hopefully that answered your questions. Back to time travel...or forward to...oh, whatever!
|
| Laeknir |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 17:25:45
@Kris the Grey: I really like the idea of a "Play Yourself" campaign, but I bet it was hard trying to quantify real-life strengths and abilities for each player. That must have taken a lot of time to work out. If it's been going since 2010 though, it must have worked out well and been extremely fun for your group.
I'm curious, has each player taken to a different kind of training? That is, did some become mage apprentices, some warrior apprentices, and the like? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 14:50:08
Obviously, what you're talking about sounds like a really good homebrew campaign, but I wouldn't want to see what you're documenting be what happens to the official campaign (granted, part of me would love a reboot, but the other part of me realizes that will just cause as much strife as what was originally done). Now, stating that, let's discuss some ideas here. The fact that you've broken the time conduit spell mechanics but given repercussions is a good idea. My recommendation is that you make these repercussions exponential of sorts. Make the bad effects start coming sooner and be nastier. Maybe the next time is 9 months later, and they lose 2 hit points. Then the next time is 9 months later and they lose a point of con. Then the next time is 6 months later and they lose a point of con and whatever their primary attribute is (have they begun to multi-class into realmsian classes? I would assume so).
As to their purpose.... maybe there's a bunch of binders who are working behind the scenes at the direction of the vestige Amon. They're working against the clergy of Lathander to bring him down and bring Amaunator back. They want to do this by enacting a ritual on an avatar of Lathander that they've captured. This ritual allows them to bind the magic of a vestige phylactery to the avatar's essence. They then plan on drawing forth Amon and then forcing him into the vestige phylactery. Since Amaunator was a deity of time and Lathander isn't, that could be a tie in to your players being time travelled in and breaking the rules somehow (i.e. maybe they are a last ditch effort performed by Mystra based on information obtained by Savras). These binders might also be working with Cyricists. I know the plot is kind of sketchy, but if it leads you somewhere, enjoy. If you can think of some improvements, I'd be interested to hear them. |
| Kris the Grey |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 03:22:52
@Laeknir (and all) - Although I think I've commented on Time Travel related campaigns before, I'd be remiss in missing an opportunity to hold forth on one of my favorite sci-fi tropes AND one of the central elements of my present Realms campaign, so here goes...
I run an unusual form of game, one I refer to as a 'Play Yourself' adventure because it is centered around the idea of taking real world gamers, stating them out using the system of your choice, and dropping them into the Realms (The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe style...). I've been up to this for quite a while in one form or another in campaigns over the years. However, the twist I have added to my present campaign is that my players are not just world travelers, but time travelers as well.
The game started here in mid 2010, however the Realms year upon the players arrival was 1369 (they arrived near Waterdeep on the night of Halaster's Higharvestide). The players came into the Realms with all the knowledge of a gamer from 2010 (3E and 4E events, novels, etc) and so were from 'the future' from the perspective of the locals. They found themselves inexplicably 'Marked' with a powerful magical symbol, invisible to the naked eye but which glows briefly upon activation when it springs to life (and slowly depletes it's stored energy) to act to save them when they would otherwise die. The symbol (which flares with a silver-blue light when active) resembles that of Selune's and Mystra's combined (with seven stars, each representing a 'charge' of it's main protective magics). They have yet to figure out who marked them and why - not even the gods seem to know.
What they HAVE done is assume that whoever has marked them sent them into the Realms of the past for a reason. Some think it is to prevent the Spellplague, some to prevent the death of Eilistraee (whose power the mark also apparently carries), some for other less noble reasons. Of late, they have turned their knowledge of future events into attempts to change them for the better. They started with small things, and have graduated to larger ones as they seek to test whether they can break the official rules of time travelers (as set forth by Ao and explained by Ed). Along the way they have been seeking to avoid becoming the pawns of malign powers by revealing their secret only to the most powerful followers of the good aligned deities they suspect of involvement with their mark.
So far, they have determined that they aren't bound by the usual 'Time Conduit' spell restrictions as they stayed on the Realms past the end of 1369 and the anniversary of a full 365 day year from their arrival (a feat not allowed by that spell). On that date, their marks flared to life, redistributed the remaining 'stars' evenly among all the group members, and returned a single spent star to each group member - at the cost of one hit point lost PERMANENTLY. They have tried warning the Chosen, only to be told that Mystra herself (or more properly, Midnight) is wary of their presence and has forbidden her Chosen from acting on knowledge obtained by the party. They were also privy to a prophecy, heard and understood by them alone, which tumbled from the lips of the High Moonmistress of Selune's temple in Silverymoon as she entered an ecstatic trance during her annual high ritual to her goddess (she had invited them to attend after they confessed their status to her).
They are presently hip deep in their first truly grand project, an attempt to stop the Drow invasion and destruction of the Deep Gnome city of Blingdenstone in early 1371. They've been discovering, at some cost, that the time stream lays down deep channels that are quite hard to divert from their course... Are they, coming from Earth (like a Kender on Krynn), somehow capable of changing events without splintering off into a new time stream? Are they here for a benign purpose? Part of an insurance policy from Mystra? Or a more sinister one? Might they in fact be the proximate cause of Mystra's death? Eilistraee's? Worse? These truths remain to be discovered, but rest assured no matter what, it'll be a bumpy ride.
All in all, I'm having a bit of fun with it. I like the blend of two of my favorite things (cross world travel and time travel) and what started out as an excuse to revisit the PCs (as NPCs) from my longest running past campaign (also from Earth, but of a different 'generation' from the present PCs and thus operating under different rules) has evolved into something much more complex. While I'm not exactly a fan of the 4E changes to the Realms, I do respect canon (and have been pleased with where the Realms seem headed with 5E) so rest assured I'll be doing my bit to allow the PCs purpose to figure in with canon, Ed's rules of the road, and his vision for the 5E Realms. I just thought, since we were on the subject of time travel restrictions, that I'd share all that with you, my fellow scribes, here at the Keep.
Enjoy, and feel free to throw out your suggestions for, or guesses on, my meta plot. I'm always open to new ideas (especially if they are somehow better than my own, Lol).
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 00:31:16
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
What they did in 3E was stretch the "multiverse" idea Planescape settled on and made it into "alternate multiverse" realities...how that "cleaned" things up is beyond me, as things were much simpler and easier to explain with Planescape and the Great Wheel than the crap 3E (and, of course, even 4E mucked up ever further) ever could.
To bridge these "alternate multiverses" they did keep Sigil, the City of Doors. They also allowed travel through the deeper parts of the Plane of Shadow to bridge one from one material plane and its multiverses and into a completely different one. In other words, the top two known ways of getting from the Realms material plane to the Greyhawk material plane was either going to Sigil and portaling to Greyhawk or going into the Deep Shadow and getting into Greyhawk's Shadow Plane through that route.
Originally, the Material Plane was separated into an infinite number of "Crystal Spheres", zones that contained the solar systems of a different world, and followed its own rules concerning spelljamming, plane traveling, magic, etc. One would originally be able to go Spelljamming from Realmspace, the name of the Crystal Sphere of Toril, enter the Phlogiston (which was the bridge between Crystal Spheres), and exit into another Crystal Sphere, say, Greyspace (to get to Oearth).
3E kind of obliterated the point of Spelljamming...well, other than exploring your own crystal sphere, which might have other worlds to explore (beyond Toril, you can explore Selune and the 7 other planets, even the Tears of Selune had settlements on them).
I think the biggest harm to the D&D game that WotC has done was mess with the multiverse system. There were ways of tweaking it without making it the complete, vomit-induced mess that it is now.
I've covered some of this in the Candlekeep Code of Conduct -- Section D.1. |
| Razz |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 23:13:43
What they did in 3E was stretch the "multiverse" idea Planescape settled on and made it into "alternate multiverse" realities...how that "cleaned" things up is beyond me, as things were much simpler and easier to explain with Planescape and the Great Wheel than the crap 3E (and, of course, even 4E mucked up ever further) ever could.
To bridge these "alternate multiverses" they did keep Sigil, the City of Doors. They also allowed travel through the deeper parts of the Plane of Shadow to bridge one from one material plane and its multiverses and into a completely different one. In other words, the top two known ways of getting from the Realms material plane to the Greyhawk material plane was either going to Sigil and portaling to Greyhawk or going into the Deep Shadow and getting into Greyhawk's Shadow Plane through that route.
Originally, the Material Plane was separated into an infinite number of "Crystal Spheres", zones that contained the solar systems of a different world, and followed its own rules concerning spelljamming, plane traveling, magic, etc. One would originally be able to go Spelljamming from Realmspace, the name of the Crystal Sphere of Toril, enter the Phlogiston (which was the bridge between Crystal Spheres), and exit into another Crystal Sphere, say, Greyspace (to get to Oearth).
3E kind of obliterated the point of Spelljamming...well, other than exploring your own crystal sphere, which might have other worlds to explore (beyond Toril, you can explore Selune and the 7 other planets, even the Tears of Selune had settlements on them).
I think the biggest harm to the D&D game that WotC has done was mess with the multiverse system. There were ways of tweaking it without making it the complete, vomit-induced mess that it is now. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 18 Feb 2013 : 13:13:16
Depends on the edition. 2e and before were all about unity. All of the campaign worlds existed on the same plane, shared the same Outer and Inner planes. It was explicitly possible to move from one to another and there was an entire setting (Spelljammer) that was devoted to that idea, and the question of what lay between. Even remote settings like Dark Sun were acknowledged to be in the same Prime, and time was spent explaining why they were isolated.
3e threw all of that out the window and basically said, "Getting everything to sync up is hard! We're going to ignore all prior lore and give everything its own stuff." So in 3e it really is an open question as to whether any world has any connection to anywhere else, or whether gods with the same name in one setting are the same in another. After all, Eberron's planes don't make sense with any prior lore, and the designers inflicted that tree thing on FR, I think just because. |
| Laeknir |
Posted - 18 Feb 2013 : 02:27:05
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Its a good question Markustay, and El gives very good answers that are non-specific. However, there can be a more definitive answer here, and that definitive answer is one that is good to explore. I was recently asking if Abeir is actually a separate crystal sphere. Its been intimated by Ed that its not exactly a crystal sphere like other crystal spheres are. We don't exactly have a 100% clear answer there. HOWEVER, we do know one thing from chronomancy. Each "plane" has its own time stream (thus Greyhawk's prime and Faerun's prime and the Abyss of Toril's primes are different planes of time <think that's what they called it>). Whenever Abeir and Toril "reconverged" this would have caused some issues I'd bet specifically with the time planes related to each. This might have made the time gates of Toril either lose connectivity, connect to the wrong timestream, or simply open a hole that goes nowhere (there's probably other possibilities too). Similarly, chronomancers entering the time stream from the spellplague may have serious problems navigating for similar reasons (and vice-versa). Also, FOLLOWING the spellplague anyone trying to go from the future to the past and vice versa may have some serious issues as there's this "snarl" in the timestream that may be hard to pass, might drop the person into the other timestream, or some other calamitous event.
Actually, I asked the core questions involved here, not Markustay.
Is it a "for certain" truth that Greyhawk and Toril are that separate? I thought that with Spelljammer, Greyhawk and Toril were confirmed to be in the same universe - and Planescape further cemented this. Or perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean? From what I know, Greyhawk and Toril "share" the same Abyss, etc. because they're part of the same "network" of crystal spheres rather than being different multiverses?
Also, Abeir seems to be in a unique kind of phased "pocket plane" relative to Toril. So far as I know. They converged for a short time and exchanged some land masses, but they're sort of "on top" of each other.
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| Zealot |
Posted - 17 Feb 2013 : 18:08:20
There was an adventure a long time ago in a published Role .aids adventure called the Eleven Banner that addressed some of the problems with time travel such as inadvertently killing the sire of your whole bloodline. It was interesting and I have used the example in both 2nd ed and 3rd ed play. I agree with the alternate time line idea. Can you imagine a player characte changing you whole campaign world just cause he has access to high level spells? I think this would be a headache |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Feb 2013 : 16:25:15
Rules for time travel in the Realms (as dictated by Mystra/etc) are given in the 2E Arcane Ages material, primarily to provide a mechanism linking the ancient setting to the modern setting, two entirely different game worlds which happen to both exist on Toril.
But I note that time travel has never really been addressed in any way in other Realmslore. FR fiction seems particularly loathe to move a few instants ahead or behind (let alone years and centuries), the clock always ticks unstoppably forward, the authors don't even dare to use time travel as a MacGuffin. Probably a good thing, I think, that no deity officially governs the Time portfolio in the Realms, so at least one thing in the cosmos can't be regularly cratered by the usual soap-opera of godly scheming and incompetence.
[Edit]
Contrast this all vs Dragonlance where time travel is something of a regular guest-starring feature used to connect two interesting (and normally isolated) points of history. And where a different time travel spell (with different conditions and limits) defines how this plot vehicle can be used. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Feb 2013 : 15:56:27
Its a good question Markustay, and El gives very good answers that are non-specific. However, there can be a more definitive answer here, and that definitive answer is one that is good to explore. I was recently asking if Abeir is actually a separate crystal sphere. Its been intimated by Ed that its not exactly a crystal sphere like other crystal spheres are. We don't exactly have a 100% clear answer there. HOWEVER, we do know one thing from chronomancy. Each "plane" has its own time stream (thus Greyhawk's prime and Faerun's prime and the Abyss of Toril's primes are different planes of time <think that's what they called it>). Whenever Abeir and Toril "reconverged" this would have caused some issues I'd bet specifically with the time planes related to each. This might have made the time gates of Toril either lose connectivity, connect to the wrong timestream, or simply open a hole that goes nowhere (there's probably other possibilities too). Similarly, chronomancers entering the time stream from the spellplague may have serious problems navigating for similar reasons (and vice-versa). Also, FOLLOWING the spellplague anyone trying to go from the future to the past and vice versa may have some serious issues as there's this "snarl" in the timestream that may be hard to pass, might drop the person into the other timestream, or some other calamitous event. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Feb 2013 : 09:35:50
The 2E Chronomancer sourcebook does offer Realms-specific suggestions. I'm sure I've quoted the passage in one of my time-travel scrolls here, haha. |
| Laeknir |
Posted - 17 Feb 2013 : 01:37:31
I do love a few really well-placed time travel adventures. They can be overdone quickly, but once in a while my players really like them. Seems to add to the mystery of the planes and all.
I've also always liked to think of other players' Realms games/worlds as alternate realities. When you're dancing in the right field in eastern Cormanthyr, in full moonlight, under a shooting star near those standing stones, sometimes gates will open and you cross over. Sometimes a ghostly blue glimmer of a unicorn may be seen slip away into the shadowy night.
I haven't yet done an adventure where my players get "locked" into the alternate reality (alternate from their prime, anyway). But I'm tempted to do just that in the near future. I have an idea percolating where a magical device or implement very necessary to their "prime" has been hidden or secreted away in an alternate and they have to retrieve it. In the process, they might become fixed to this new prime (very different in some major details from their own) and be stuck there for a while. Ed's idea of malfunctioning gates, due to a frayed Weave in the alternate world, might be just the ticket. To get back, they'll need to repair the Weave. Either locally, or perhaps on a grander scale.
Anyway, just an idea still developing.
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| Hoondatha |
Posted - 16 Feb 2013 : 22:01:38
I prefer to have chronomany possible, because I like time travel stories. The godly angle isn't something I have a problem with, since I also don't have a problem with Ao. My feeling is he just laid down a law for the deities saying they can't time travel, and they can't use mortals to do it either. But mortals on their own can.
The key for me is for a time traveller to be circumspect. Here I take my cue from Back to the Future II: you can change the past, sometimes you can be in the same time more than once, but you can't be "noticed." What noticed means in any given instance varies on what's going on.
For instance, I once ran a short campaign with a bunch of elven "temporal raiders" (different from the kit). It was multigenerational. The first generation would find a target and do all the advance scouting: map the location, the guardians, the wards, etc. Then they would find somewhere very conspicuous and stay there. The second generation (the first's kids), having grown up studying for this intrusion, would take a time portal back to when their parents were scouting, and do the actual thieving. Then the rest of the family would help hide the loot in warded caves.
It was a really interesting variation on the time portals, and how if you're patient you can turn them to your advantage. And it's because of campaigns like that, and the fun I've had in them, that I totally ignore the "time travel damages the Weave" stuff. Blatant time travel, obvious paradoxes, yes. But if you're careful, all of time is open to you. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 16 Feb 2013 : 20:13:37
This has go my brain going on another major mythal power for the mythal I'm building.. See here
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17488
I'm going to make Semberholme kind of an "out of time" place. Time still moves there, just very slowly. Like for every year spent within the mythal, only a day will pass outside. Aging within the mythal will work with mythalongevity like in myth drannor. However I want to build in an element of chaos to the passage of time... like its unpredictable. Maybe its 1:1, maybe its 10:1, maybe its 100:1, maybe it goes backwards too... hmm so many possibilities. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 16 Feb 2013 : 19:10:40
I consider my FR campaigns as alternative timelines. Sometimes I revisit events from previous FR campaigns or novels and play with a cool event in there. I ignore those events that dont mesh well with my campaign needs (such as lolths silence or the introduction of Tymanther and dragonborn).
The prime timeline as in GHotR I see as absolute canon though. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 16 Feb 2013 : 18:48:58
I'd definitely take the position suggested by modern physics that for every action, there are an infinite number of possible reactions. Not only are these outcomes possible, they in fact do occur in parallel dimensions, or time streams. Of course, this means that there are time streams that are entirely different from our own, but also an infinite number of similar ones. One important rule to adhere to if you are going to bring these dimensions into play however, is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to enter into a similar time stream. "You" are already there, and cannot be there again. I'd liken the effects of this to the Star Trek idea of bringing matter together with anti-matter. Alternatively, you can go with the other Star Trek solution, where an out of phase Picard is basically a meat puppet until time catches up with him.
I use Chronomancy in my world FAR more than most. In fact, one of the many personas The Masked Mage has adopted over the course of his incredibly long life was that of 'Chronomancer' himself (as well as numerous other famous Netherese). He was the original creator of ALL of the time gates, and the Time Conduit spell. Name a time in Toril's history, odds are he's been there. Despite his extensive time travel however, he is entirely unable to change the events of the past. His actions merely serve to ensure that events unfold as history has always recorded them. Using this device, he has played pivotal, if overlooked, roles in Realms events. A good example of this is the How The Mighty Are Fallen arcane age adventure. No matter what players do, Karsus casts his Avatar spell. Its in the cards and cannot be stopped. Whatever actions taken have always been and will always be taken. |
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