| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 23:11:20
Am going to keep this basic as am sure folks will say no or yes.
According to wikipedia, shou lung is considered "undoubtedly " the most powerful kingdom on the face of faerun , would folks agree or most likely disagree? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 02:45:09
Regarding Ming China compared to the European maritime powers, it’s far more complicated than a huge empire being upstaged by a small but ascending kingdoms. Aside from internal problems, probable climate change, currency fluctuations, and attention shifting to their northern border in costly wars, there’s at least one thing the designers and authors of Kara-Tur and the Empires trilogy tried to emulate but never captured. China didn’t care for global reach because to China, it was the world. In the same way the ancients of Europe/Asia Minor had the concept of a Known World, so it was with China and that known world was more or less contained within this one entity and kept it for much of its history, unlike the Roman and later empires that continually fell and rose. Europe didn’t dominate the seas because it out-competed China, it was because China didn’t bother and never saw the situation in those terms. That is a major difference in perspective, a fundamental difference in culture and position.
This skewed perspective is why Kara-Tur seems pretty ill-fitting both with itself and with the Realms/Faerun. The characters of the setting say all the right sounding statements about the empire, but the setting (even if limited to the Eastern Realms) was not designed with that “Shou-centric” perspective in place. So all of that noise rings hollow and seems silly when compared to other areas of the Realms. Compared to the existing Realms, Shou Lung and other polities in Kara-Tur seem shallow, in presentation, in history, and in depth. Things aren’t in the right scale or the same perspective, not even within Kara-Tur itself let along compared to the wider Realms.
Shou Lung theoretically should be the most powerful living nation in the Realms, but it’s not in reality or in presentation despite what the material or novels state. The hype is there (and should be there), but no one believes in the hype, and that attitude is apparent the situations and in the characters even in the Empires trilogy.
This holds true for most Asia flavored sections of traditional fantasy settings. Designers are broadly aware of the archetypes a fantasy Asia should fill, but have not shown they are willing to embrace them completely and without reserve. The closest I’ve seen is L5R, but even it had some sharp streaks of Euro-centrism sneak in. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 00:29:33
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
But now with Ed taking creative control again, maybe we can now ask Ed what of lands beyond Faerun?
There's nothing stopping you from asking him now. Since it's likely that some of what Ed will be contributing for the next edition will probably include interactions with the various lands of the East. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 00:14:43
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had a honking-big post here, and then I erased it all.
So now I will simply say this without the long-winded (logical) explanation behind it: Seeing anything produced beyond Faerûn's borders is HIGHLY unlikely. I'm not saying the guys currently in-charge don't want to... I am implying they can't. They need to focus their limited resources on what they know will sell.
Only small companies can afford to gamble. Odd, but true.
EDIT: And they will never license their IPs out, except to other media they have no plans to enter (like a movie).
Once again, I had to edit my edit - I started going into a whole can of worms I'd rather not reopen ATM.
Which begs the question of "How many people do we need to make them listen?"
I think they won't do it because they have not taken the time to either ask, survey, or the voice is too small.
But now with Ed taking creative control again, maybe we can now ask Ed what of lands beyond Faerun?
It's not really that Ed is taking creative control, as much as it is that WotC is involving him a lot more, going forward. They are making sure to include him in their plans and deliberations, as opposed to the "here's what we decided, make it work" approach previously embraced. |
| Razz |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 23:22:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had a honking-big post here, and then I erased it all.
So now I will simply say this without the long-winded (logical) explanation behind it: Seeing anything produced beyond Faerûn's borders is HIGHLY unlikely. I'm not saying the guys currently in-charge don't want to... I am implying they can't. They need to focus their limited resources on what they know will sell.
Only small companies can afford to gamble. Odd, but true.
EDIT: And they will never license their IPs out, except to other media they have no plans to enter (like a movie).
Once again, I had to edit my edit - I started going into a whole can of worms I'd rather not reopen ATM.
Which begs the question of "How many people do we need to make them listen?"
I think they won't do it because they have not taken the time to either ask, survey, or the voice is too small.
But now with Ed taking creative control again, maybe we can now ask Ed what of lands beyond Faerun? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 16 Feb 2013 : 17:03:02
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Post-SP, I'd say MAYBE Shou Lung is. But the question is, how competent are their army? Large number is one thing; competence is another. There are four more candidates for that "title:" Calimsham, Aglarond (that is, before The Simbul's "death"), Thay and Shade. Thay is now under one rule only. And Shade now has Sembia in its clutch.
I probably should include Amn, too. It has enough manpower to withstand against or start their own hostile campaign. Not to mention they have brimming coffers enough to buy thousands of mercenaries. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Feb 2013 : 16:32:19
How can you pass judgement on a series without properly reading it? That would be like the reviewer who panned Elaine's Pathfinder novel after reading nothing but the prologue! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 16 Feb 2013 : 14:57:26
Empires is one of those Realms series that I bothered to read but should not have. I'm even hesitant to claim to have read it as I mostly skimmed through most of it, especially the ridiculously phrased dialogues and equally inane, logic-defying scenes. Thankfully, I forgot half of what happened in that series. Ha! |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 11 Feb 2013 : 21:51:47
Okay so I read the empires books this weekend, the first one started out slow, but turned to love it in the end, the second one I had to adjust to but turned out to love it middle and end, while adjusting and skipping a few dead spots. The third one I just put down and walked away. The third book is a utter bore. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Feb 2013 : 13:39:57
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
When they were united against an invader, Thay would have been more powerful. Unfortunately, all things have their weaknesses, and Thay's was internal politics.
Well, it's no longer a problem these days. Thay is now under one banner. And Szass Tam literally controls all the necromancers that presumably run all the tharchs along with some Banites, who I gather would never dare oppose their sovereign.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd compare them to the riftwar saga by Feist.
Which group exactly? The Kelewans? Dasati? Keshians? People of the Kingdom? The Kelewans suffered more from their twisted sense of "honor" in combat than internal politics. They couldn't even manage to seize a small a territory as Crydee. As for the other three, yes, internal politics has always been their problem, most notably Kesh.
Yeah, now Thay is united under one banner, but that uniting also made them weaker. They lack the sheer numbers of highly intelligent and capable, not to mention devious, individuals that it once held. Its a pale, pale shadow of what it once was.
On the Shou Lung to the Riftwar group, I'm thinking Kelewan. That being said, I've little actual reading done on Shou Lung over the past few decades, so my references usually come through third parties (i.e. the fact that they were a spelljamming society, etc...). BTW, any idea what happened to them in the spellplague? Obviously, based upon some of the information we've uncovered on spelljamming, their spelljamming fleets are either destroyed or stranded outside of realmspace (though they still may be working within realmspace). |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Feb 2013 : 01:01:03
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
When they were united against an invader, Thay would have been more powerful. Unfortunately, all things have their weaknesses, and Thay's was internal politics.
Well, it's no longer a problem these days. Thay is now under one banner. And Szass Tam literally controls all the necromancers that presumably run all the tharchs along with some Banites, who I gather would never dare oppose their sovereign.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd compare them to the riftwar saga by Feist.
Which group exactly? The Kelewans? Dasati? Keshians? People of the Kingdom? The Kelewans suffered more from their twisted sense of "honor" in combat than internal politics. They couldn't even manage to seize a small a territory as Crydee. As for the other three, yes, internal politics has always been their problem, most notably Kesh. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 23:35:43
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had a honking-big post here, and then I erased it all.
So now I will simply say this without the long-winded (logical) explanation behind it: Seeing anything produced beyond Faerûn's borders is HIGHLY unlikely. I'm not saying the guys currently in-charge don't want to... I am implying they can't. They need to focus their limited resources on what they know will sell.
Only small companies can afford to gamble. Odd, but true.
EDIT: And they will never license their IPs out, except to other media they have no plans to enter (like a movie).
Once again, I had to edit my edit - I started going into a whole can of worms I'd rather not reopen ATM.
Just adding a ditto here. Plus, the idea of them outsourcing a chunk of what is on the same world as Faerun.... not just no, but hell no. I don't want that. If someone wants to produce a new oriental campaign, lord knows it doesn't have to be based in Kara-Tur. The last thing I'd want is some 3rd party making sweeping changes that unintentionally would in theory affect Faerun. I understand that this means they likely won't get any further work, and it sucks, but that's the way things crumble. Maybe someone who truly loves the campaign will do some homebrew stuff and sell it to Wizards just to see it published.... that'd be the only way I see it happening. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 19:49:41
Just bringing another thought: maybe it was easier for Faerûnians to defeat the Horde because their forces were already weakened by their combat with the Shou. But yes, there is a lack of magic power in Kara-Tur, comparatively, especially for lack of development.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 19:29:37
I had a honking-big post here, and then I erased it all.
So now I will simply say this without the long-winded (logical) explanation behind it: Seeing anything produced beyond Faerûn's borders is HIGHLY unlikely. I'm not saying the guys currently in-charge don't want to... I am implying they can't. They need to focus their limited resources on what they know will sell.
Only small companies can afford to gamble. Odd, but true.
EDIT: And they will never license their IPs out, except to other media they have no plans to enter (like a movie).
Once again, I had to edit my edit - I started going into a whole can of worms I'd rather not reopen ATM. |
| Razz |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 18:42:43
Faerun seems more diverse, much more diverse. It received much more attention. From the magic and lore, everything. Shou Lung doesn't seem as diverse at all. Heck, magically they don't. Shugenja, Shaman and Wu Jen, that's it. No alternate forms of magic, no myriad of cultures. I am speaking mechanically, of course. Heck, the list of oriental monsters is short compared to the Faerunian one. I know monsters can overlap from one region to the next, but pure oriental myth monsters are few in Kara-Tur.
This is because Kara-Tur is, and always will get, a passing treatment. It's preposterous, and if I were WotC, I would license Kara-Tur out with the number one agreement being,"Make sure it meshes well with what's going on in Faerun, too, and don't throw anything that would cause a major event between the two regions without notifying us first."
Or are they afraid licensing their material out will make them look foolish for being so poor at their job, like Sword&Sorcery, Sovereign Press and Paizo Publishing did when they released their material? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 18:04:45
When they were united against an invader, Thay would have been more powerful. Unfortunately, all things have their weaknesses, and Thay's was internal politics. I'd imagine Shou Lung's weakeness is not only internal politics, but also overblown pride and honor. As others have said, fielding a huge army is one thing.... leading them is another. I'd compare them to the riftwar saga by Feist. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 13:08:21
Of current day empires Shou Long is probably the strongest, historically though not by a long shot.
The Netherese or even the empire of Aryvandaar were significantly stronger. |
| Quale |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 11:20:11
the Grand Caliph in Huzuz is also one of the most powerful |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 10:07:08
I'd argue that both Shou Lung and the Tungiens are the victims of bad writing rather than the superior military power of the faerunians. Their creators were so focused on turning them into historical analogues that they failed to properly integrate them into a fantasy world, failed to account for things such as magic, fantastic materials, and how such things effect military strategy.
The Tungein war was a set up to make Azoun look good. Yamun Khahan looks strong for defeating the Shou, making them look weak in the process, and all of Faerun looks strong for defeating the Tungeins, and Azoun specifically looks good for defeating Yamun. Classic worf effect.
Now, my own personal bias leans in favor of real world Mongols, so I believe that if the Tungiens had been properly integrated into a fantasy setting and given proper use of magic, I believe they would have run rough shot over Faerun without much in the way of problems.
A tungein ruled Shou Lung, in these circumstances, should make for the strongest empire on the planet, at least for a couple hundred years.
Ah, but that's wishful thinking. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 18:10:54
Besides the shou and some of the thay, I think they kept the east/west/uthgar areas self contained on purpose. As each are very independent within the realms and sort of make own sand boxes possible. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 15:49:09
In defense of the author (I'm not even bothering to look it up - I don't want any biases creeping into my post) of the novel Dragonwall, I felt that he did an excellent job representing Shou-Lung as an overly-big (HUGE) nation with WAY TOO MUCH bureaucracy for its own good, with all those 'political types' with their own agendas, and most of the time anything they attempt (be it military or something else) gets sabotaged by their own in-fighting and self-promoting stupidity.
In other words, VERY MUCH like an overly huge (US, old USSR) real-world nation with more 'overhead' then is good for them, and able to accomplish little of value because everything put-forth has to appeal to hundreds - perhaps thousands - of individual bureaucrats & nobles. From what little I know of ancient Chinese history (and applying that to Shou-Lung), it seems to me the writer caught the precise flavor of such an empire very accurately. They were more of an enemy to themselves then the Tuigan were (they even caused the war by trying to assassinate Yamun Khahan, and botched it).
They can't win a war because 'politics' gets in the way. If they could get their act together, they could not only take the rest of Kara-Tur (including pesky Tu-Lung), but they could pose a serious threat to the west. Fortunately, that has happened...... yet.  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 09:20:36
Seravin has a point. If we're talking "of all time," my answer is NO. Ancient Imaskar and Netheril were forces to be reckoned with in the height of their power; so were those elven empires that predated them. Mid-1300s, Id' say Halruaa. Didn't Ed mention that Halruaa had some kind of "magic bombs" that could destroy vast armies? Were they hostile, they could have conquered half or all of Sword Coast, if not Faerun.
Post-SP, I'd say MAYBE Shou Lung is. But the question is, how competent are their army? Large number is one thing; competence is another. There are four more candidates for that "title:" Calimsham, Aglarond (that is, before The Simbul's "death"), Thay and Shade. Thay is now under one rule only. And Shade now has Sembia in its clutch. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 07:33:09
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
where can I find more info on this tungien war? The only real exposure I have in this area is the frostfell book.
The entire war was the focus of the Empires trilogy: Horselords, Dragonwall, Crusade. The second book focused on the Tuigan versus Shou Lung.
The Hordelands boxed set as well. And "The Horde" article in DRAGON #349. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 04:22:35
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
where can I find more info on this tungien war? The only real exposure I have in this area is the frostfell book.
The entire war was the focus of the Empires trilogy: Horselords, Dragonwall, Crusade. The second book focused on the Tuigan versus Shou Lung. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 03:48:02
I'll make a grossly simplified historical analogue, because that's pretty much what Shou Lung is.
You know how Ming China in the 16th century had an enormous population, arable land, resources, social stability, a strategic position and technology, and yet managed to get upstaged by Portugal in its global reach? That. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 01:27:20
where can I find more info on this tungien war? The only real exposure I have in this area is the frostfell book. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 01:16:15
I loved the first novel but had a LOT of problems with the second novel's writing in the Empires trilogy. I can't say that I thought the Shou were well represented in it, but I guess it does give the biggest glimpse into their ways we've seen in the Realms so far. That said, they lost a hundred thousand + soldiers and cities and such but still repulsed them and the capital was never really threatened (and seemingly bounced back although did they stop existing in 3rd edition?).
The Tuigan horde got close to the northern Winter Palace (Taitung?) if I remember in Dragon Wall, not the true capital (Kuo Te'Lung?) which was several thousand miles away? But maybe I am remembering it wrong, it's been ages since I read that novel and I have no desire to repeat it (although Horselords was excellent).
TO the original poster's question, where would Halruua (Not a kingdom really but a territory?) rank in this (pre Smellplague I mean?) Obviously if we're saying most powerful kingdom of all time it would be something like Netheril? But if we're going with the mid/late 1300s I suppose Shou-Lung, Thay, Halruua, Calimsham, Evermeet and Cormyr? Would be curious to hear an official answer. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 01:09:11
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: OH... and Shou Lung got SPANKED, HARD during the Tuigan wars. The Tuigan were at their gates (of the capital) and they had to sue for peace. They basically got their butts handed to them (for the most part).
Then Thay turned the Horde aside, Rashemen sent them into retreat, and Azoun beat them up. I would say out of all of that Shou Lung made a VERY poor showing. Their gunpowder weaponry usually killed more of their own men then the enemy.
Indeed. Way back I once did the number and while I don't recall them exactly anymore, the Shou lost some hundred thousand soldiers while Azoun stopped the horde with a mere 30,000 soldiers |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 00:47:05
I mean no offense to the writer of any particular novel; but I have to say that the invasion of Shou Lung by the Tuigan read more like history than fantasy novel with magic. I liked the novel, but I didn't understand how in the hells the Tuigan could have so badly beat on Shou Lung that way. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 00:31:41
Wikipedia is not 100% reliable (although much better then the FR wiki).
Personally, I think Shadowdale is the most powerful 'nation' in the world.
But only when Elminster is home. 
EDIT: OH... and Shou Lung got SPANKED, HARD during the Tuigan wars. The Tuigan were at their gates (of the capital) and they had to sue for peace. They basically got their butts handed to them (for the most part).
Then Thay turned the Horde aside, Rashemen sent them into retreat, and Azoun beat them up. I would say out of all of that Shou Lung made a VERY poor showing. Their gunpowder weaponry usually killed more of their own men then the enemy. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 00:25:27
I would say "The Kingdom with the greatest potential for power" on Faerun.
Nearly limitless resources, manpower, high technology and great unity over all...but those same things are also weaknesses to a degree.
Resources are spread over vast distances, so much manpower, it is hard to unify military actions, high degree of technology is seemingly centralized, and that unity can result in regional officials fearing to do anything without hearing from higher up. |
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