| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 17:57:19
I have been looking in complete arcane on the class Wu Jen and after seeing the spells and the stuff that are concerning this class I feel that it's like reading something that is half finished..
So few spells.. in the following books below..
Complete arcane - Complete Mage - Dragon Magic
Am I missing something ? are there any dragon magazine or other books where I can find more spells, feats and other stuff concerning this class?
Yours
Victor Ograygor
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 14 Feb 2013 : 17:07:09
hmm.. Okay I have used allot of time finding Wu Jen spell in many different Oreintal books.. I have only been able to find one Wu jen spel in the oriental 3 or 3,3 edition books I have........
I am almost give up..
So my last chance to find anything spell for the WU Jen is you out there.. and my secret sending to Elminster.. if he has the time to help me.. lol
Aa.. I give up..
Thanks for the help
yours
A Peaceful Mind
are there a message bords like this one for the oriental settings for forgotten realms ? |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 03:22:25
The Oracle is one of my favorite Pathfinder classes. Their curses are well integrated into their abilities and provide a good template for an updated Wu Jen. |
| Razz |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 00:45:42
The taboo mechanic can actually be flavorful and fun by simply following what Pathfinder did with the Oracle and their revelations ability.
I suggest you take a look in the Advanced Player Guide on the Pathfinder Reference Document website and read on the Oracle class. Pay close attention to their curse. Each oracle suffers from a curse (deafness, blindness, etc.) but in return they receive benefits (some of which make the curse's effects less harsh than normal).
If they had the Wu Jen follow those same mechanics, it'd be a great start for making them unique and still equal to a wizard. A wu jen would take a taboo say every 4th or 5th level and receive a benefit in return (whether a special ability, a feat, etc.). |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 03:11:11
Now I really want to look over the Dragon magazine version of the Wu Jen. What Wooly described seems to have significant differences from other spellcasters.
My impression of the 1E OA Wu Jen was only so so. The 3E version is essentially a wizard. I don't mind a bit of gratuitous exotic flavoring if it involved some novel or uncommon mechanics to back it up, or more development to show a divergence, a real difference in culture and approach (like the spell list expansion discussed in this thread). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 22:12:49
Back when we doing the Kara-Tur thread on the WotC forums, I was thinking about elementalists, but in terms of Shukenja. I'm not sure now looking back if I was inspired by the 4e system or not, but I had come up with a 3-tier system for them:
First Tier (lev. 1-10?) you would have to give up 2 opposing elements. Second Tier (lev. 11-20?) you'd have to give up 3 other elements (the hyper-specialt), but at the 3rd tier (21-30?) of power you could specialize in all of them (like your Avatar idea), None of them (embracing Void instead), or focus on two of them (so you not only would get the benefits of being a double specialist, but you'd also get some para-elemental spells).
The second tier was rough, but you get the benefit of hyper-specializing; two free spells from your school, and all other benefits of specialization are also doubled (in my HB rules you get a +2 to caster level for specialist spells, so a hyper-specialist would cast spells of his element 4 levels higher then normal). There'd be other benefits as well, like lifting the normal level-cap on how many damage dice a spell gets.
The 'all of them' mode would allow you to tap into 'life magic', so the Eastern Elementalist would be one of the very few arcanists able to heal. I rolled 'wood' and 'metal' (versions of 'the 5th element') into life/alloy - the western concept of all four elements having to be in balance.
When we stopped working on the K-T project (soon after 4e reared ts head), I had stopped thinking about all that, so it never got past that very basic concept stage.
Anyhow, if I just went with re-flavoring the Sha'ir like I was considering above, there nothing wrong with turning the Gen (a Sha'irs familair-like personal fetch-genie) into a Mephit. That would give the Wu-jen back the familiar he looses (out to the Wizard), and give it a more eastern flavor (because eastern magic users were known to commune with all sorts of things from the 'spirit world', which = The Planes in D&D).
Then I could do something like give him those specialist benefits only when his 'spirit guide' (Mephit) was present (but it could be invisible). This would be in lieu of the benefits a normal wizard gets from his familiar.
Another idea would be to borrow from the MtG game and use those power-sources (and concepts) from the card game. Then a Wu-Jen could have a variable power level depending on what type of terrain he is in (which sounds very OA to me). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 21:26:47
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I should look at the one in Dragon Magazine, simply because I've always agreed with Dark Wizard's sentiments. I've always loved the concept of them, but thought that they fell way short of their potential.
On the other hand, I don't think I'd like them so hamstrung by being elementalists - the shukenja already fills that role in OA, and it also replicates the Sha'ir down in Zakhara.
I'd love to do something with them, but I'm not sure which way I'd go yet. It seems to me that you could just use the Sha'ir as a template and change-up some of the spells (and instead of a gen, the Wu Jen would have to 'commune with spirits' for his magic). Then I could just say 'Western' elementalists are actually following an 'eastern school'.
And then I keep thinking about FMA and wondering how cool would it be to take the 'alchemy' from that series and apply it to Wu Jen?
Basically, right now they're wizards with a smaller spell list and some taboos to make them more gimp. The wizard gets scribe scroll, the wu jen gets a metamagic feat. The wizard gets a familiar.... the wu jen gets to reroll init once a day (not a fair trade considering wizards have other options to trade in their familiar for). The specialist wizard gets more castable spells per day, but granted at the expense of two schools. In return, on some spells wu jen are better casters. Now, some would say wizards are overpowered (more the case in 2nd edition than 3rd edition personally) so why compare them.
If I were to rework them in any way, it would be to make them more like the "Avatar" from Avatar: the Last Airbender. They focus on the elements, but not any specific one (i.e. they're not fire elementalists and give up an opposition school). If there were arcane spells that were undoubtedly elemental based in one of their elemental schools (earth, fire, metal, water or wood.... NOTE: not air... which could imply that that they don't have a lot of lightning or sonic effects... they do have some though), I'd probably include them just to give them a few more options. However, I'd then make them just a bit more bard-like by making their hit die a d6 instead of d4, and I'd make their base attack increment like a bard's. I'd also give them improved unarmed strike at 1st lvl and a choice of either dodge or combat casting as a replacement for the initiative ability. I'd also give the option of either stunning fist feat OR the metamagic feat.
They'd still have no ability to wear armor without arcane spell failure being an issue, so they're not likely to wade into combat, and they don't really get any special ability with unarmed combat, so they're not likely to focus on it. However, if they did want to say become warrior/mages, in doing this they COULD enter the spellsword prestige class a level sooner than wizards because their BAB builds just a little faster, and correspondingly jump from it to eldritch knight the following level. Therefore, wu-jen COULD be decent gish if they wanted.
If they wanted to go combat oriented, but more monkish, with the change in free feats, someone could also go into the enlightened fist prestige class relatively easily (they'd just need to make sure to choose the options of stunning fist and combat casting over the dodge and extra metamagic feat) without having to multi-class as a monk or something else to get the necessary feats. This gives them the ability to fight without armor a slight bit better (they don't get the monk's wis bonus to AC, but they get the unarmed AC bonus of a monk), the monk's unarmed dmg, and a speed boost. The class is nowhere near overpowering, and actually the wu-jen would give up 2 levels of casting along the way... but some might like it.
Now, does this match the "classic wu jen" of the stories. I've no clue whatsoever, as I'm not familiar with those stories. However, this would make a more oriental flavored arcane caster with some options towards unarmed combat and/or options toward being evasive in combat if they wanted it. It gives less focus to their elemental form of magic, but makes up for it by making them a slight bit more sturdy than "Eastern" wizards.
Oh, and I'd get rid of the taboo thing unless they get some taboos that are less cheesy. Not bathing and having your hair never cut may fit some oriental cultures, but not all. Or rather, I'd make the taking of a taboo come with a commensurate "bonus". Not wearing a certain color should definitely have a lesser bonus than things that will get you kicked out of a building (such as not bathing or having hair down to your ankles)
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| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 13:19:04
I should look at the one in Dragon Magazine, simply because I've always agreed with Dark Wizard's sentiments. I've always loved the concept of them, but thought that they fell way short of their potential.
On the other hand, I don't think I'd like them so hamstrung by being elementalists - the shukenja already fills that role in OA, and it also replicates the Sha'ir down in Zakhara.
I'd love to do something with them, but I'm not sure which way I'd go yet. It seems to me that you could just use the Sha'ir as a template and change-up some of the spells (and instead of a gen, the Wu Jen would have to 'commune with spirits' for his magic). Then I could just say 'Western' elementalists are actually following an 'eastern school'.
And then I keep thinking about FMA and wondering how cool would it be to take the 'alchemy' from that series and apply it to Wu Jen? |
| Razz |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 00:57:05
The shaman class in 3E represents what the shugenja was in 2e I believe.
His best bet is still to just take the Spell Compendium and other books with spells (Frostburn, Sandstorm, Stormwrack, etc.) and just adjust the Wu Jen spell list himself. It's a long and arduous process but worth it in the end once it's saved, thrown in the cloud and used over and over. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 05:35:15
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
The Wu Jen always seemed redundant with the Wizard mechanically. I haven't seen an official version that differentiate itself enough to justify Wu Jen being anything more than a Wizard Specialization, Kit, or Archetype equivalent. For instance, in Pathfinder Wizards can specialize in one element, including Eastern/Chinese elements like Metal and Wood.
Plus, IMHO, the class always had the aftertaste of smarmy exoticism for the sake of it. Wu Jen are like Wizards, except they have these habits (not cool beliefs, just peculiar, weird and arbitrary) and get minor benefits for it. "Oh those strange foreigners and their wily ways." A wizard can be flavored the same way, supported by feats, and the character would be fine as is. I feel the more neutral Wizard better suited to represent an empowered "scholar" archetype in a fantasy setting (eastern or western based). The Wu Jen felt more like a hedge mage or shaman in flavor, and probably should have been developed more along those lines.
I did not feel that way about the Wu Jen presented in Dragon 229. They used their own hit points (and got more hit points than regular wizards) to power their spells and had more combat options than wizards. Plus, all of their spells were tied to a single element -- all of them. No detect magic or continual light or sleep, it all had to be fire or water or something. |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 21:38:56
That last one has more sources for it than the others. For Shugenja spells, check out the Rokugan 3E line by AEG. WotC may have published the 3E OA, but AEG supported the Rokugan d20 setting with a decent line of supplements. In particular Magic of Rokugan is a book of spells for Shugenja of all types. The "Secrets of ..." clan books also have clan specific spells. Some caveats, it's 3E (not sure if it's 3.5E), so for 1E/2E games, those spells would need a conversion, and the Shugenja for 1E/2E was different from the 3E Shugenja (based more on the L5R/Rokugan setting's interpretation).
The Wu Jen always seemed redundant with the Wizard mechanically. I haven't seen an official version that differentiate itself enough to justify Wu Jen being anything more than a Wizard Specialization, Kit, or Archetype equivalent. For instance, in Pathfinder Wizards can specialize in one element, including Eastern/Chinese elements like Metal and Wood.
Plus, IMHO, the class always had the aftertaste of smarmy exoticism for the sake of it. Wu Jen are like Wizards, except they have these habits (not cool beliefs, just peculiar, weird and arbitrary) and get minor benefits for it. "Oh those strange foreigners and their wily ways." A wizard can be flavored the same way, supported by feats, and the character would be fine as is. I feel the more neutral Wizard better suited to represent an empowered "scholar" archetype in a fantasy setting (eastern or western based). The Wu Jen felt more like a hedge mage or shaman in flavor, and probably should have been developed more along those lines. |
| Razz |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 00:58:17
You'll have to do what I do. I try to update new spellcasting class spell lists with spells from other products and it is a real pain because there are no real guidelines for doing so.
You have to look at the Wu Jen spell list and really reverse engineer what was going through their heads when they added those spells to the list (or lists, since they also have the 5 elements as well).
The easiest class to update was, of course, the Healer class. I was able to catch on to the theme of spells that were ok to add to the list. Obviously any healing spell, but there were also spells added that greatly assisted a Healer in the role of "getting to the ally and healing ASAP" as well as a few abjurations to guard the Healer from being taken down easily. Sprinkle it with the few "animal loving" spells it also receives and you eventually caught on how to know when a spell was just right for the Healer class and when a spell was not fit.
I'd have to say the Duskblade was the next easiest. The Player's Handbook 2 actually gives a few beneficial guidelines (cone spells, single target, touch spells).
For Wu Jen, I really haven't gotten around to enhancing the Oriental Adventures spellcasting classes, especially considering there's FOUR of them (Shaman, Shugenja, Wu Jen, Sohei). Obviously the hardest spellcasting class to judge concerning new spells is the Shugenja. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 15:49:38
My bad, it was 229. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 13:28:00
Dragon magazine issue 318 had some new spells..
issue of Dragon. 189 had nothing.. well I have to look again.. this is sad that there are so little to this class..
I am not giving up.. please share any information you have..
Yours
Victor Ograygor
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 11:47:19
there was also the 3.0 oriental adventures. I can't say whether the spells listed there add any extra, but it is a place where specifically the wu-jen is found. |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 22:57:26
The 3.5 Spell Compendium has some spells for the class, or at least suggests adding spells from that book with every element except air, and any spells with wood or metal themes. As far as the Realms are concerned, have you consulted this article, Victor_ograygor? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070918 |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 21:08:36
The wu jen I played was, I believe, from an issue of Dragon. 189, I want to say, though I could be mistaken. The spell list was limited, but easy to expand -- that particular flavor of wu jen cast spells based on particular elements. So there wouldn't be a huge need for a dedicated spell list for them -- just see if the spell is related to a particular element, or make a version that was. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 20:28:25
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
I have been looking in complete arcane on the class Wu Jen and after seeing the spells and the stuff that are concerning this class I feel that it's like reading something that is half finished..
So few spells.. in the following books below..
Complete arcane - Complete Mage - Dragon Magic
Am I missing something ? are there any dragon magazine or other books where I can find more spells, feats and other stuff concerning this class?
Yours
Victor Ograygor
Over the years, people were introducing new spells, and by default they went "ah, wizard" and never went back and considered any of the "non-standard" classes that the stuff would absolutely fit. For instance, sandstorm and stormwrack were printed a full year after complete arcane, and they're books on aspects of elemental magic. Yet none of them lists any spells as wu-jen spells.
The problem as I see it is something that happened in 2E that needed to also occur in 3.5e. They should have done a full series of spell compendiums and included all spells ever published under the 3.5 and 3.0 umbrella (and updated the 3.0 ones). Instead, they did a spell compendium but only included "the neat spells".
In fact, they're talking about re-releasing new material from previous editions, this would be a PERFECT type of "re-release". They could do it as either a collection of all cleric books, all druid books, all wizard books, all wu jen, all bards, all battlemage, etc.... and therefore you could pick them up by class. Or they could do it as two groupings (divine and arcane), this would be preferred as the people buying it for the wizard spells would pay for the research to label new wu jen, new warmage, new bard, new hexblade, new beguiler, new dread necromancer, new duskblade, new assassin, etc... spells. It would take some time to cut and paste all the material together alphabetically, but once they did it, it should be fairly doable to start figuring out what's what. If they were to note what book each came from, they could also know which was the "latest" version of the spell. I know I'd pay damn good money for something like that, seriously, as long as it were complete.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 20:03:24
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
There is the class from 1E Oriental Adventures and the kit from 2E PHBR4: Complete Wizard's Handbook. Not really a lot of material, but perhaps able to fill some gaps.
I played a wu jen in 2E, for at least a handful of sessions. Gods, he was fun. Most fun I've had playing a single-class spellslinger, other than my 2E wild mage. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 18:30:03
I believe the Legend of the Five Rings d20 version might hold some spells that should be of proper wu jen flavor. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 18:18:29
There is the class from 1E Oriental Adventures and the kit from 2E PHBR4: Complete Wizard's Handbook. Not really a lot of material, but perhaps able to fill some gaps. |
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