| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 14 Jan 2013 : 05:16:23
It seems like , that mortals still think mask may be alive, even after everything that happen, while not a published work on a large level. The short story the got catcher by erin evans, has a few folks cuss in it saying Mask's Empty Casket
I think that is a interesting curse for someone to be saying 300 years after he supposedly died. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 23:23:36
FR fiction has demonstrated several times that the Faerūnian powers are not always constrained by the "normal" definitions and rules which apply to deities. Generic D&D lore and 2E Planescape lore is sometimes disregarded entirely. Each deity is basically treated as a unique entity within a unique circumstance designed to fuel some portion of the larger plot which characters move through. Mask, Cyric, Mystra, Mystra, Mystra, Karsus, Moander, etc ... the only thing they really have in common is that each is an exception to the rule. |
| Brin |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 23:38:01
Moander was also killed in off on toril but remained alive on different planes as the deities can stretch across multiple planes of existence, arguably I am not even certain I would call it killing him as only a part of him it is more akin to cutting off his hand or some such. As far as gods being resurrected goes from what I've read when gods die their corpse remains like a mortal but it just floats around in the astral plane. Their corpses can be resurrected if enough juice is poured into them. Spoiler alert: in Finder's Bane some priestess of Bane steals the Finder Stone which is holding the bulk of Finder's divine power, the intent behind this was to take that power to the astral sea (which they did), find Bane's body (which they did), and resurrect him. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 19:43:36
In FR I think a God's portfolios are more then a job description, its apart of a God's essence so the only way to absolutely destroy a God would be to destroy all its Portifolios from existence. So for a God of War like Tempus you'd have to not only end all war, but eliminate the very idea of war from existence.
Also a God can die in one Sphere and survive in another. Inanna died in the realms, but continues to exist in in the Planescape setting. |
| Brin |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 19:23:03
I am a HUGE fan of the deity interplay in the realms, and wouldn't want it to increase or decrease I think it's fine where it is. Granted I only read the novels though so I've read about the Tymora/Helm/Tyr thing on the wiki but not in the actual source book. As far as the novels go however I've only ever had a three complaints about the Gods. First is that during the Avatar series spoiler alert Mystra essentially commits suicide due to the stupidity of challenging Helm, I'd like to think she wouldn't have been that stupid. The second is that during the Avatar series Mask is portrayed as whiney and ineffective while Kemp during the Erevis Cale times portrayed Mask as a confident master-mind badass. And finally I don't remember it being mentioned in the Cale series that Mask was missing his leg, while in the Avatar series he could not regrow it, in fact he shapeshifted like a madman and each form was missing a leg.
I saw that Dark Wizard didn't like the more mechanical politics in the stars, but that's how they are. Avatar series gave a nice explanation for this: most of the Gods were created as Gods and those are unable to see beyond the perspective they were created to view. So Oghma can never think of anything except in terms of conservation of knowledge. This gives them a fixed view, but the Gods weren't meant to be changing. They're there to maintain the balance so Ao can be a lazy bum.
Also Cyric was crazy before he became a god and he became crazier because he read the Cyrinishad. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 00:04:30
I think those are like 'echoes' - not real deities, just 'wisps' of what once was.
I like the 'Embers from a fire' explanation. Its similar also to how Voldemort almost came back in the Chamber of Secrets (it was just a memory of him trying to achieve true life).
Picture a massive electrical surge happening in a town, and nearly all the circuitry gets 'fried'. Some things you touch might still make your hair raise up, others might hold enough of a charge to give you a nice zap, while still others (TV picture tubes are known for this) will hold enough of a charge to blow you across the room.
So the energy (of the god) might have gotten dispersed, but bits of it could still be clinging to things (especially things that were already associated with the deity, like a holy item or alter). |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 22:57:16
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Not that its much of canon, but in Neverwinter 2 Mask of the Betrayer(MOTB) the god Myrkul was still alive, barely holding on. His consciousness and intellect were still there, and this was because according to some of character's words, as long as a few kept doubts,fears, and mere memory of him, he would always be "alive" like the embers of a fire.
Note that this was just one instance of him still existing. A second one, independent from the one met in NWN2, is existing at the same time in the Crown of Horns.
Dead Bane also continued to exist in different incarnations, each of them believing to be the only rest of the true Bane. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 16:55:41
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And the giant worm that subsumed half of Samas Kul's body suffered from constipation thereafter. Oh, but I digress...
And here I would have thought with all that fat it would have been explosive diarrhea. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 08:13:43
And the giant worm that subsumed half of Samas Kul's body suffered from constipation thereafter. Oh, but I digress... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 06:02:35
Not always a balanced merging.
Cyric was driven mad by too much godly power, yet seemed to regain some sanity after losing godly power. Azuth's essence was completely subsumed within Asmodeus, quite possibly beyond any escape or recovery. Tymora and Beshaba are not equal parts of a whole. Finder apparently hasn't expressed any of Moander's characteristics. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 01:33:06
Like a merging of sorts... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jan 2013 : 23:01:57
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
This makes me think of another thread I started on souls. I believe gods have souls, just as mortals do, and some (myself included) have speculated that souls are energy (I've actually read books on this). If that is true, then can you really destroy a soul, since it is energy? Maybe a "destroyed" god would have his/her energy dispersed throughout the Astral Sea, and because it is so widely spread, the god no longer exists in the fact it no longer has a consciousness. It's "godliness" was destroyed, its energy spread out too thinly. This would apply to mortals, too. In the afterlife, souls take humanoid form (at least in fantasy), and gods will take human forms too, forms mortals can understand, but the core, aren't we all energy, at least to an extent?
And since some "dead" gods are adrift in the Astral Sea, then the Astral Plane is kind of like an afterlife for the gods.
Energy can be transferred into another vessel and thereby a god could be "drained" into another god. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:37:58
@Ayrik: that's a good point about the gods being "maimed" and staying that way. Hmm...I'll have to think about that one.
@Gyor: interesting that you bring up the personal soul being an echo of a higher soul. In Shinto, the native Japanese religion, they believe each person has four parts to a soul, but I won't go into that here. So maybe gods have echoes of souls too, and if one soul "dies", another takes its place. Maybe as long as there is a "whole" soul, that deity would come back/isn't truly dead. I don't know if that is logical (but I guess logic could only apply so much here).
@Xar Zarath: this goes back to whether a god can truly be destroyed, if souls are indeed energy. Maybe as a goddess she was destroyed because the energy was dispersed too much, so there was not enough to form an "entity", if you will. However, erasing her from the memory of everyone does not necessarily make her cease to exist (of course one could start a whole philosophical debate on existence). |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:12:27
Not that its much of canon, but in Neverwinter 2 Mask of the Betrayer(MOTB) the god Myrkul was still alive, barely holding on. His consciousness and intellect were still there, and this was because according to some of character's words, as long as a few kept doubts,fears, and mere memory of him, he would always be "alive" like the embers of a fire.
Of course he did create a spirit eating curse to ensure his memory would not be forgotten though, so this hypothesis is further sealed with the death of Kiaransalee, who was utterly destroyed when the high magic ritual performed erased the memory and name of her from all beings. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:06:40
I don't think Mortal Death and God Death is the same. Gods are embodiments of concepts, demigods a mix of concept and mortal, and concepts can't be destroyed, only repressed.
Its why D&D Gods have a prepesity towards resurrection one way or another. Its just about reforming thier essence.
As for souls, I believe Souls in RL, are pure information/imagination, be I believe everything is ultimately information/imagination, only the form changes.
I also believe the personal soul is an echo of a higher soul which does not dwell in the body, and can have many echoes.
Not really relevant to the topic, but since souls were brought up, I chimed in :D |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 00:42:23
That's a tough question. I'm limiting my speculation (mostly) to the gods of the Realms.
Some injuries to a god's essence seem to be permanent - like Tyr's severed hand, or Gruumsh's "missing" eye - they apparently never heal regardless how powerful the god might become, over time they become symbols of the god's identity. Schwarzenegger once said "if it bleeds, we can kill it."
Moander is basically an exalted living cancer, a powerful god of living rot and decay, it's possible that he's insane and evil now but was originally a "normal" nature god who somehow became corrupted. Kanchelsis was apparently once Seldarine (or half-Seldarine) but changed into a dual-natured fiendish deity suffering from eternal vampirism. There's even a few ascended lich-deity sorts. Gods seem largely powerless to "heal" themselves of these (not always beneficial or desirable) afflictions.
Shar is apparently motivated by absolute oblivion. Perhaps she alone understands that gods can never truly die so long as anything and anybody in the cosmos continues to exist. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 00:00:11
This makes me think of another thread I started on souls. I believe gods have souls, just as mortals do, and some (myself included) have speculated that souls are energy (I've actually read books on this). If that is true, then can you really destroy a soul, since it is energy? Maybe a "destroyed" god would have his/her energy dispersed throughout the Astral Sea, and because it is so widely spread, the god no longer exists in the fact it no longer has a consciousness. It's "godliness" was destroyed, its energy spread out too thinly. This would apply to mortals, too. In the afterlife, souls take humanoid form (at least in fantasy), and gods will take human forms too, forms mortals can understand, but the core, aren't we all energy, at least to an extent?
And since some "dead" gods are adrift in the Astral Sea, then the Astral Plane is kind of like an afterlife for the gods. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 15:13:57
Sometimes it's technically possible to repair any broken part, even the fabric of the universe itself. But there always comes a practical point where the costs of repair are greater than the costs of replacement. And sometimes things simply cannot be repaired without external aid, which seems to indicate some things in the universe simply cannot be repaired ... or can only be repaired by external agents (who might always produce something undesirable or unrecognizable).
The "nearly-identical-doppleganger" argument can be extended to all sorts of things in physics, magic, philosophy, religion. Every teleport or planeshift might actually swap two (or many) selves through "parallel" universes. An interesting topic in itself, but I don't see how it's relevent here beyond being a distraction. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 14:56:25
Almost the same, but not quite, specially when the resurrected/reincarnated mortal took in a different form. In every transformation, change always occurs. Which reminds me of [spoiler]Miranda and Nakor from Ray Feist's Riftwar books. They're dead, consumed by demons. But those same demons, when destroyed, had their souls recycled in Hell. Said souls bore the "memories" of their most recent preys (probably the doing of the God of Mischieft, I guess). The new demons "grew," and they became aware of Miranda's and Nakor's memories, which eventually gained dominance over them.[/End of spolier]. So basically, they have the bodies and powers of a demon, and the memories, magecraft, and cleverness of their mortal selves. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 14:38:21
Yeah, I thought of that as well. Still, my basic premise - 'mortal' vs 'immortal' still holds.
Nothing should ever be completely 'beyond repair', it just takes a LOT more work to get it up and running again. It some cases, you've replaced so much you can pretty-much say its a new thing - like Mytstryl/Mystra/Midnight - but to a mortal, whats the difference? If it looks like Moander, smells like Moander, and acts like Moander, it might as well just be Moander.
Which begs the question, is it ever really the same god? For that matter, is the mortal you rez ever really the same person? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 14:31:24
I think resurrecting mortals is much simpler than resurrecting gods. Like the difference between fixing a bicycle and fixing a sports car (in some cases a bicycle vs an F-22 Raptor, 747 airliner, or space shuttle). The fundamentals of the simple construct are part of the complex construct, but the complex construct involves complexities entirely absent in the simple construct, different tools and skills to repair, different capabilities and energies to operate. Even the "entry level" demi-semi-quasi-godling motorcycle is vastly more complex than the mortal bicycle, especially when they break. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 13:44:46
That's why I oft differentiate it with the concepts of killing versus destroying. You normally kill a (human) mortal, leaving his body behind (which can be used as a reanimated tool by any necromancers), and his soul to go to the afterlife. Hence, said mortal still exists, albeit in a different "form." Now, you don't just "kill" a deity if you wish never to see him again---ever. What you do is you destroy him, you burn out every fiber of his divine essence, and search for and annihilate whatever contingencies he has placed across all the planes of existence. Is that possible? Maybe. Some say Leira is definitely, utterly dead. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 13:22:41
If I stick a sword (or whatever) into a human being (or elf, or dwarf, etc), I can go into town and for few a few gold get the local priest to bring him back.
Now, if I can do that with something that is pretty much on the low end of the celestial food-chain (a mere mortal), why wouldn't you be able to do it with something much more powerful, be if deity, primordial, or whatever?
If a mortal can be brought back ad-infintum, and gods (otherwise known as 'immortals') can die (permanently?), then isn't that rather the opposite of their definitions?
D&D is stupid. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 11:09:27
You're welcome, Ergdusch. That was relatively fast because I happen to be at my library at home. ;) |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 10:28:38
Thank you, Dennis, for the fast answer.
On topic:
Just killing gods by sword or magic leaves little story plot left to utilize. Therefore, WotC is well adviced to always leave a "trace" of a dead God - as it might be the case with Mask. It is a great epic plot for Dms to use (as well as for WotC to write (yet another) book or edition with a returned God).
However, killing of Gods is not the only possibility to introduce such epic plot to a campaign setting. E.g. the herecy of Amaunator in 3rd. Ed. or the ploting of Iyachtun Xvim in 2. Ed. as well as the resurrection of Bane afterwards were both great story hooks, IMO. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 10:13:15
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by LastStand
A little off-topic...of the off-topicness...but the scene where Mask talks to Shar at the end is one of my most reread parts in the realms. It was such a good scene.
I thought it was good, too, in an unexpected way.
You made me curious. Where would I find that - so I might reread it myself?
Ergdusch
Pages 330-333 of Shadowrealm by Paul S. Kemp. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 10:00:02
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by LastStand
A little off-topic...of the off-topicness...but the scene where Mask talks to Shar at the end is one of my most reread parts in the realms. It was such a good scene.
I thought it was good, too, in an unexpected way.
You made me curious. Where would I find that - so I might reread it myself?
Ergdusch |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 06:29:09
I haven't read anything on Planescape, but thank you for the info! That sheds some light on my speculation. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 06:26:47
Planescape: Guide to the Astral Plane goes into great detail about "dead" gods. No, they are immortal and cannot truly irrevocably "die". They become dormant, perhaps even manifest unconscious powers as they dream. But some are so mysterious or anonymous, so long forgotten by worshippers long extinct that they retain no awareness, no memory, no identity ... they even lack enough mind and will to be apathetic, they are perhaps truly beyond salvation. If/when they are somehow revived, it is most likely as an entirely "different" god ... so whether they are dead, reawakened, resurrected, reborn, reincarnated, or recycled is a matter of philosophical perspective. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 06:02:09
Oh, I see. I'll agree that you do have to look in several books and more than one edition to get more info on the deities. This all made me think of something that has been speculated here before. Does a deity ever fully die? I suppose if Ao erased their name from the Tablets of Fate that would...or would they? And if a deity has a different aspect based on region/race, if one aspect fades or dies out, how does that affect the rest of the deity? For example, if Talos died/faded, would Gruumsh remain? I suppose if people stopped worshiping Talos but orcs still revered Gruumsh, then Gruumsh would just no longer be known by the name of Talos. I might have just answered my own question lol, but one could expand on it.
Two deities fight, and one kills the other, but how much can a deity really die? We could go in circles about this, of course, but there it is. |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 08:58:31
If we're talking deities with stronger and more evocative relationships, some of the Golarions deities stand out. The setting is still a hodge-podge, so there is a lot comparable to FR. One of the examples that stuck in my mind is Zon Kuthon, despite being a riff on the Hellraiser/Cthulhu vibe. His antagonistic relationship with his half-sister Shelyn caused him to be how he is now. There is a complex interplay with how he is trying to corrupt her and she is trying to redeem/save/restore him. How she took an intelligent weapon from him in the attempt to help him, but the weapon tried to corrupt her as well, but failed thus far. How by his orders Shelyn herself is off limits to his servants or followers, but her followers and worshipers are not. Is there a part of the old good god still in there, or does he just want to save her so he can torture her himself. What the gods are, what they've done, what they feel is apparent, but there is a layer of complexity behind it, we question if there is a chance for redemption for Zon Kuthon, or if he's just too far gone into the deep dark reaches. I only skimmed the entry, but it did catch my eye and I don't even like the concept of Zon Kuthon that much.
Recently, I followed the drafting of the manuscript for the Midgard setting. Reading the final product, it's what 4E Realms should have done with the Faerunian pantheon. Look at some reviews of the book and you will see lots of praise for their gods and pantheon section, other sections as well. We will see some familiar elements, like gods being known by different names to different regions or peoples. Sounds like the Talos/Gruumsh or Selune/Sehinine situation with the Realms, but it kicks it up several notches.
Midgard pantheons are local (regional) affairs. (I remember when this was a suggestion for 4E on the various Realms forums to help FR streamline the reveal of information.) These pantheons are 5-6 gods max with some minor cults (and dark gods). Once the pantheon goes beyond 5, one must fall so another may rise. Some of the gods are possibly neighboring regional deities in a different guise or a different name. That's what the neighbors say, but to you, their gods are the aspects of your own deities. Or depending on the neighbor, some of their gods are just not worth paying any attention to, or they should be feared as monsters, or crushed as abominations, or bound as slaves to your gods.
What is the head of the pantheon in region is just a regular god in another, or a minor one, or a dark god, or a demon, or equated with a unexpected counterpart. A god may be unheard of in one place, fading in another, or the major divine force of yet another kingdom. Some gods are in contention for who is the true version, some are in a struggle for leadership over their own pantheon. The individual pantheons themselves have a historical path through which one can trace vaguely what pantheon they arose from or what pantheon they subsumed. There are inconsistencies and contradictions left purposely but a pattern reaches throughout the whole. Nothing is clear cut, but there is enough to grasp what the larger whole is. If each deity entry is taken for it's own, there is enough to make you feel your patron deity is the one you should be following. All of this wrapped in a relatively slim word count.
This is not to say these pantheons are "better" or have more depth than the Realms deities. The Realms pantheons have a lot written about them and within that volume of material are many wonderful, complex, interesting ideas. The difference I think is these other settings get to the point right out of the gate in their initial CS or with a fairly brief supplement afterwards. With the Realms I might have to dig through two or three books across two or three editions to find those gems. Meanwhile other representations of the deities may vary from the potential offered in those official game write-ups. |
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