| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 16:15:01
Westgate.
It's a classic, storied city brought to vivid life in numerous Realms novels from Jeff Grubb's iconic Azure Bonds to my recent Shadowbane series.
It's a den of scum and villainy (where we must be cautious!).
It's a treasure chest of secrets, intrigue, and skullduggery.
Say hypothetically I'm writing something about Westgate. If you were to run a game or read a story set in the city of intrigue . . .
1) How well do you feel like you know Westgate, and what do you want to learn?
2) What are your favorite and least favorite aspects of Westgate?
3) What's your favorite Westgate faction (Night Masks, Fire Knives, Eye of Justice, Nine Golden Swords, Zhentarim) and why?
Let's talk Westgate!
Cheers |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 15 Jan 2013 : 18:32:06
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I enjoy the Quezlarn as a neat local lore; sort of the Loch Ness Monster of Westgate. Always made it a bit unique among the seedy/villainy type trading port cities.
The quelzarn is featured in my plans for the fourth Shadowbane novel, Realm of Night. Uncontracted as yet, but a little teaser won't hurt? 
Cheers |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 14:28:32
quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
I'm about halfway through the LFR adventures on Westgate. I've gotten up to 12 pages of lore so far, including a "Current Clack" section (this is largely information that I'm unsure of the reliability of as it's presented as rumours rather than facts in the modules).
That's what the old Current Clack section in 1E and 2E was about: unverified rumors that could be used as adventure hooks, and that usually were not expanded on elsewhere. |
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 11:14:34
I'm about halfway through the LFR adventures on Westgate. I've gotten up to 12 pages of lore so far, including a "Current Clack" section (this is largely information that I'm unsure of the reliability of as it's presented as rumours rather than facts in the modules). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 19:08:54
My bad. 
I thought Everis Cale went to Westgate, but I think it was actually (briefly) Starmantle. Those were the gnolls I referred to in my earlier post (although if they are active mercenaries/guides in the Gulthmere area, I would think Westgate would have a few as well).
I still think of Wetsgate as the Monsters! city, though. Wasn't there a Night Parade novel set there, or some such? |
| Seravin |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 17:46:56
I enjoy the Quezlarn as a neat local lore; sort of the Loch Ness Monster of Westgate. Always made it a bit unique among the seedy/villainy type trading port cities.
Definitely the novel Masquerades flushed the book out most to me, much more than Azure Bonds, if we're looking at the Grubb/Novak novels. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 01:19:46
@Sage: Well done!
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Fire Knives. Brian R. James and I co-authored an article on Realms Thieves Guilds that never saw the light of day.
Oh, I recall. I saw said article, and rather enjoyed it.
Cheers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 00:53:08
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
My work in the city typically relies upon the Cloak and Dagger map.
I've a few notes that have been compiled from novel sources which feature Westgate, Erik, if you're interested in a little more information on city locales and such that haven't been referenced elsewhere.
Absolutely. So long as your notes cite where they come from. I believe in a high degree of accuracy.
Cheers
Oh yes, they're all cited from sources -- even down to page number and paragraph. How's that for a Sage usually prone to the uncertainties of SageTime?  |
| Matt James |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 00:49:25
Fire Knives. Brian R. James and I co-authored an article on Realms Thieves Guilds that never saw the light of day. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 00:00:40
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
My work in the city typically relies upon the Cloak and Dagger map.
I've a few notes that have been compiled from novel sources which feature Westgate, Erik, if you're interested in a little more information on city locales and such that haven't been referenced elsewhere.
Absolutely. So long as your notes cite where they come from. I believe in a high degree of accuracy.
Cheers |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 18:30:06
Seven Lost Gods...new lore about Moander? :) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 15:54:06
In Lords of Darkness, Westgate is listed as one of the places with larger, well established Thayan enclaves. I understand that this may be gone in the 4th edition, but it would be interesting to note what involvement they had in things pre-spellplague. Were they working the various factions? Were they gathering slaves? Was there someone corrupt in the government who was benefiting heavily by allowing them to come in? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 05:34:42
I can't help but picture the final scene of Lost Boys -
Grandpa: "One thing about living in Santa Carla I never could stomach, all the damn vampires."
(except replace 'Santa Carla' with Westgate).
I never used Westgate... not sure why. I can imagine a 'Universal Studios' movie-monster type campaign (I'd even throw in a mummy - one thats been around a LOOOOOOOOONG time). They got vampires, and Paul Kemp threw some Gnolls in there (which make good Lon Chaney-style wolfmen). Toss in a flesh Golem and locathah and we have a party!
Or Sahuagin, or Kua-Toa. Actually, merging this with Brian's suggestion of a 'dead gods' tie in (Kua-Toa make good cthulhu-esque followers). Of course, I'd probably also throw in Abbot and Costello, just for laughs. Kids today (like mine) wouldn't even know who they were.
Something about the mummy idea... a mummy is pretty-much just a clerical lich. Hmmmm... that may make Westgate a little too like Luskan. I do so love my pissed-off, just-awoken 10 thousand year old mummies.
What do I want to know about Luskan? Whatever would help me run a game there! I don't need to know food recipes and the ranks in the town guard, I need crunchy things like interesting locales and NPCs. |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 04:45:14
Three words always come to mind when I think of Westgate:
Seven Lost Gods |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 01:39:29
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
My work in the city typically relies upon the Cloak and Dagger map.
I've a few notes that have been compiled from novel sources which feature Westgate, Erik, if you're interested in a little more information on city locales and such that haven't been referenced elsewhere. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 18:20:12
@map: I suspect there won't be budget for a map in this particular article, but such a thing would be an excellent inclusion in a Dragon Coast or even Westgate-specific sourcebook. My work in the city typically relies upon the Cloak and Dagger map.
@John, yes! Send me any research you can compile. I don't have much access to the LFR stuff and would love to include it.
Cheers |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 07:38:37
quote:
JohnLynch
The Watch, however, didn't really come across as corrupt. Instead they came across as more incompetent in that they're unable to keep these factions in line or really do much of anything.
I would say the Watch wasn't corrupt or incompetent; they simply don't have enough men, money, and magic to effectively police the city, they're forced to make a lot of tough on-the-street decisions and tolerate or "overlook" criminals they know are just too costly to ever bring to justice. Certainly some among their number are corrupt, and they may be given their orders from corrupt leaders, many of their captains may be suborned, and the people of Westgate will know which members of the Watch are and are not ethical. I imagine that experienced Watch members can even abide "honor among thieves" and sometimes make special arrangements for justice to be delivered to particularly vile criminals at the point of a thief's dagger while they are busy patrolling elsewhere. |
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 07:10:27
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Alas, I am designing for all eras, so the piece will indeed contain modern Realms stuff.
Would it be at all helpful if I went through the LFR modules (the ones that WotC paid for and owned the copyright to, I'm unsure what the legal status is of the recent LFR modules) and compiled what scant information there is on Westgate? Even if the locations were merely points on a map, it might be a nice easter egg for those of us who played in the Forgotten Realms for a few years in the modern era.
[EDIT]: Apologies for the double post. Erik replied at the same time I did. |
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 07:07:13
My knowledge comes from Westgate of 4th edition (most specifically LFR). Of all the places in LFR, it got detailed the most. As such, my knowledge comes from 1479 rather than the 1370s.
As such, I do feel like I know it fairly well (if only dimly due to passing of time). I know that it's a pretty down and dirty city. Somewhat lawless. However there is a Watch (although they can be quick to bash heads then do a full investigation). It's somewhat owned by the gangs and factions that operate out of here which gives DMs a fair amount of groups to provide the players and allow them to play off them.
I'd love a map of this city. It's a port city and there's a big city with people living in it (and I know few locales). But what I don't know is how to get from Point A to Point B.
My favourite part, as I touched above, is just the number of factions operating out of this city. It truly does give a lot of DMs the potential to do whatever they want.
The Watch, however, didn't really come across as corrupt. Instead they came across as more incompetent in that they're unable to keep these factions in line or really do much of anything.
My faction wasn't actually the Nine Golden Swords. They felt very stereotypical and not Faerunian. Instead I loved the Shou city that lives right next door and the legitimate Shou embassy within Westgate itself. Shou Lung is so far away, and yet we have this Shou city just down the road. Who are these people to have a city so far from their home and what are their plans in the Sea of Fallen Stars. The Shou embassy was definitely my favourite (and sadly underutilized) faction. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 06:57:45
Hey all,
Thanks for the great recommendations! I can only put so much in this piece, but you better believe I'll cram what I can in.
And Cloak and Dagger is my bible on this article, as it was on writing my recent novel set in Westgate, Shadowbane: Eye of Justice.
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
I'll second the general lack of in-depth lore on Westgate from the 3.x period, and I'd love to see more of the city from that era (prior to the Spellplague, anything after not of interest).
To clarify, I am designing for all eras, so the piece will indeed contain modern Realms stuff. I'd love to write an entire Westgate sourcebook on the scope of the Menzoberranzan book (or even more in depth), but that will have to wait for D&D-Next proper, I think.
Cheers |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 05:31:40
I would like to know how Westgate interacts with the undersea realms...if it is really influenced at all.
Also, could you sneak a bit of Ixinos in there? Just sayin... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 05:14:39
Since we're talking about Westgate... There is a little more info out there, that not everyone may be aware of. Westgate stuff! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 04:52:50
Westgate does get a few pages in AD&D2E Forgotten Realms Adventures. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 02:37:42
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
1) How well do you feel like you know Westgate, and what do you want to learn?
I think the section on Westgate in Cloak & Dagger was a good start. But that's part of the problem. It was just a start. I was really looking for a more elaborate coverage of the city. Not really a full-blown city-book, but I felt that the coverage in C&D read like just the essentials to get started. Ultimately, I'd like to see greater focus on the city as the "Gateway to the West."
quote:
2) What are your favorite and least favorite aspects of Westgate?
I don't think I have any least favourite aspects of Westgate. My favourite aspects remain its history and the interplay between the noble houses and other prominent types, like the noted mages and church clergy.
quote:
3) What's your favorite Westgate faction (Night Masks, Fire Knives, Eye of Justice, Nine Golden Swords, Zhentarim) and why?
Aside from the "Big Ones" you've mentioned, I've always liked the hints about the more minor factions operating in Westgate that were referenced in the C&D entry. I've expanded on them in my own Realms, but I'd like to know more about them officially too, so they remain my favourite power groups in Westgate. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 22:17:13
I'll second the general lack of in-depth lore on Westgate from the 3.x period, and I'd love to see more of the city from that era (prior to the Spellplague, anything after not of interest).
I missed out on a lot of the 2e material (since I didn't start gaming till 3e), but the bits that filtered in during 3e were cool, and more would be awesome. |
| BlackAce |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 20:24:08
Beyond the FR Adventures entry and various novel references, I can't say I know the city so much as I do the Nightmasks. I'd love to know more about the nobles and burghers/civic organizations of the city, how they interact with the various criminal elements. How the ordinary folk, both resident and passing through travelers, deal with it all. Obviously I'd like the various competing criminal organizations to be detailed. I'd like to see plenty of edition neutral 'current clack' adventure hooks for each of them.
My favourite thing about Westgate is that it's a wretched den of scum and villainy. Least favourite; Probably the whole nonesense about the sea receding a leaving the docks high and dry. I'd love to see more about Westgate's wider role in dragon coast politics too.
|
| Delwa |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 19:26:09
I'd second what Bladewind and Hawkins have already posted. I started my first campaign on a road to Westgate, and a lot of the lower level adventures were based around there. At the time, I only had access to the 3E Campaign Setting and my details were sorely lacking.
A tileset or even maps would be loved. I'd like to see something akin to Volo's Guide to Waterdeep in a book, with taverns and dungeons detailed, but with enough vaugeness to allow DM creativity. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 18:49:22
Having not have read the Finders Stone Trilogy, here are my answers:
1) I feel that I know it only tangentially. The Night Masks are mentioned and even make appearances in other novels and supplements, and Eye of Justice takes place there; but overall I am not all that familiar with it. I want a detailed timeline, and the learn everything possible. Just like I do with pretty much everything Realmsian.
2) My least favorite is the lack of lore in the 3.x era books and supplements. I don't really have a favorite aspect.
3) I don't have a favorite, but I am most interested in the Night Masks (all eras), Eye of Justice, and Nine Golden Swords. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 18:10:00
To me the greatest appeal of all the crime in Westgate is the thriving black market, along with all the smuggling, contraband, information, and oddities it might bring. What I'm saying is that things arrive in Westgate from far away and things leave Westgate bound for far away destinations. Reasonably honest merchants and traders and bards might unknowingly serve as spies and smugglers across half of Faerûn. Then there's the crooked merchants and traders, not to mention the actual thieves.
My players have never been particularly keen on intrigue-mystery gaming, and I'll admit that I'm not well suited for it either without a mountain of preparation, so Westgate has really served my group more as a sort of flea market and shopping mall where anything and everything is available for a price, provided you aren't pickpocketed on the way to pay it. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 17:39:56
I like the criminal underworld openly present in the town. The struggle of the Fire Knives and the Nine Golden Swords, the dominance of the vampiric Night Masks. How mobile do the two lesser thieves guilds have to be to avoid the Night Masks?
I like that Westgate is a proponent of freedom, in race, religion and organisation. Have any knew schools of thought originated from scholars from Westgate?
I like maps, pictures and descriptions of buildings or sewer systems. Preferrably scaled for encounters. I imagine the lower docks to be mostly from wood and to be wholly rebuild every decade or so. A tileset would be sweet as Westgates lower docks setting is perfect to enable random city layouts that has a lot of verticality in it. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 16:42:12
I haven’t delved too deeply into Westgate. I’ve read Azure Bonds, but not much else having to do with this city beyond Manshoon’s presence there.
Despite that lack of Westgate knowledge, my first thought in response to your query would be to ask for information about the lands immediately surrounding Westgate.
Between Westgate, Teziir and Redwater, for example, are there a bunch of castles owned by Westgate residents or nobility? A sort of Westgate’s backyard filled with their country estates?
Or is it open, unpopulated land frequented only by merchants moving along the Grand Ride?
Or something else? Monster infested? Ghost haunted? Spellplague leftovers?
I’d also want to know how Cormyr’s interests are dealt with in that region. Since Cormyr controls Teziir, does this lead to conflict with Westgate’s land forces?
Are Cormyr and Westgate quietly battling for influence in Reddansyr, Accardi and Redwater? Or have the lines already been firmly drawn, with both sides leaving each other alone, so trade moves unhindered?
For the city, I’d want a map that’s reasonably detailed (not of the dark colored, hard to read kind as found the Backdrop: Suzail article), brightly colored map showing what places are where.
I’d be curious to know if the city has outgrown its walls in the last hundred years and if so, how has it changed? Did it absorb refugees from anywhere?
Give me some Current Clack style information too.
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