| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Xnella Moonblade-Thann |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 00:39:58
Since 12-21-2012 has come and passed (about a week now since the "end of the world"), and we are still amongst the living, I was wondering how many "prophecies" have failed in the Realms (or on Toril). Looking at how many we've had on Earth, it seems plausible that it may happen on Toril.
And not to stray too far from the Realms, but I do believe that on Golarion they had a failed prophecy that was linked to Aroden, the last Azlanti, dying when he should have ushered in a new age.
I'm sure other d&d worlds have had their fair share, but I can't seem to find any. Mayhaps I'm not looking in the right Realms books?
Edit: Mods, if this should be put into an existing scroll or another section, please do so. My internet is acting a little hinky today because of the storm and I can't do proper searches on this site without being kicked off the 'net. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 17:40:42
I'm away from my books at the moment. Later, I'll post an excerpt detailing the casting of the spell in question. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 17:22:46
The river analogy is good, because it allows certain paths to re-converge.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I believe Szass Tam used a spell to duplicate this sort of 'prophesy effect' - he was able to see down several branches (which equate to alternate realities).
It's something like it, but not exactly the same. His spell allowed him to view reality in nine dimentions, but it was limited to the 'here and now,' and did not extend back to the past, or onwards to the future.
First, time itself may have been one of those dimensions (Temporal Prime), unless the text explicitly said otherwise.
Also, its really not that different - he could see 'perturbations' in the various dimensions surrounding Realmspace, which means he could probably see at least some of those divergent reality paths (not the realities themselves, but the possibilities). Picture being on a road, and off to the side you can see dirt-paths leading off the main road. As you looked in those directions, you can see off in the distance some clues about what is happening there - perhaps a grey skyline, or one filled with dragons, or the smoking ruins of cities... that sort of thing. No specifics, but you can get a general idea of what direction you DON'T want to go in. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 16:12:26
Love the time tree branch analogy. Good stuff. Another popular metaphore for describing divining the future is the river of time.
Certain seers describe their prophetic visions as being able to dam the river of time, giving the seer the time to study the stream or timeline of specific events in the vicinity of the clear waters near their dam. Looking up and down the stream without a dam is as mentally tyring as physically swimming in a strong current of a turbulent river.
Being mentally strong makes seers good swimmers, so old seers can become more able to see further away into time. But extending too far takes them further downstream a riverpath, sometimes leading to the erosion and redepositing of their dams wholesale into false realities.
On the contrary, young seers would have clear sight into their unblemished dams waters, perhaps with a specilised area of expertise or timeperiod, but need help looking further downstream the main timeline. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 15:33:02
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I believe Szass Tam used a spell to duplicate this sort of 'prophesy effect' - he was able to see down several branches (which equate to alternate realities).
It's something like it, but not exactly the same. His spell allowed him to view reality in nine dimentions, but it was limited to the 'here and now,' and did not extend back to the past, or onwards to the future. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 15:08:06
For all the criticism he takes, I think Terry Goodkind (Sword of Truth series) has a really great take on prophesy.
Prophesies are just branches off a tree - the tree of time. As each branch 'bears fruit' it invalidates other prophesies that were spawned form other branches. That means that once a Seer hits a major snafu (is wrong about something), their prophesies become more and more unreliable as things move forward (because they were making predictions down a specific path of prophesy which eventually failed).
I believe Szass Tam used a spell to duplicate this sort of 'prophesy effect' - he was able to see down several branches (which equate to alternate realities). Supposedly the number of these branches is near-infinite, and he was only able to see down a few at a time without being driven mad. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 14:37:02
But such older sages need more and more of those excuses over time, whereas the younger seers (and their followers) are more likely to point at their infallible trackrecords as proof that they posses "the sight" more strongly than the peers. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 14:09:11
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Keep in mind old prophets are more likely to have uttered failed prophesies. Young seers are a more likely to have a unsullied trackrecord and are more numerous because of this.
I love to imagine that most clergy of Savras are enraptured by young girl and boy seers who seem to utter impeccable prophesies on a daily basis. The clergy are likely to safeguard these young seers from corrupting influences, keeping them in well protected sanctuaries in chamber bereft of sensory input and with as few influences from the outside world as possible. Some of those child prophets can be seen as the spiritual leaders over clergy well over their age, so seer hierarchies are more likely to be structured by inverted ages, with the old serving the young.
I must say I don't agree here. I see people trusting only tried and true seers over some kids spouting what some might equate to pretty poetry. If an older seer gets something wrong on occasion, people might just chalk it up to interpretation. Moreso, I also see the younger seers asking for aid from the older seers to interpret the visions they're getting. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 14:01:30
Keep in mind old prophets are more likely to have uttered failed prophesies. Young seers are a more likely to have a unsullied trackrecord and are more numerous because of this.
I love to imagine that most clergy of Savras are enraptured by young girl and boy seers who seem to utter impeccable prophesies on a daily basis. The clergy are likely to safeguard these young seers from corrupting influences, keeping them in well protected sanctuaries in chamber bereft of sensory input and with as few influences from the outside world as possible. Some of those child prophets can be seen as the spiritual leaders over clergy well over their age, so seer hierarchies are more likely to be structured by inverted ages, with the old serving the young. |
| Xnella Moonblade-Thann |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 09:03:25
hmmm...never thought of those two points, Foxhelm. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 03:47:31
The facts is it is hard to find a failed prophecy as you can just bring the prophecy up for later and later events.
Unless...
1) You have a deadline like 2012. We have a deadline so the prophecy can fail.
2) You have conflicting Prophecies, and even then one is could still come true.
Otherwise, you can recycle prophecies till the succeed. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 03:38:13
Indeed. Besides, if a Zulkir of Divination (who was arguably as powerful as the late Halruan (Netherese) king, Zalathorm), managed to divine and clearly see the murder of Mystra, how much more a bunch of Netherese archwizards who are likely way beyond her. |
| Xnella Moonblade-Thann |
Posted - 30 Dec 2012 : 17:49:39
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
People who have strong connection to the Weave must have seen glimpses of the aftermath of Karsus's Avatar spell. The Netherese are this kind of people, so are the elves.
You seem to be right, Dennis. Given the high amount of magic in their society, and the fact that even commoners know cantrips and simple 1st-/2nd-level spells, there had to have been some among the Netherese (especially the higher-level mages and priests, as well as those who were more sensitive to the Art) who would've seen the after-effects of Karsus's actions. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Dec 2012 : 09:52:07
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
...what about the Netherese? Weren't they also somewhat able to fortell the future and that's why they moved one of their floating cities into another dimension? Or is my brain messing with me again because it's wicked late and I should be in bed?
As Wooly noted, there are 3 versions of the 'truth,' and all of them are (unfortunately, maddeningly) canon. I have my own conjectures, if you're interested...
People who have strong connection to the Weave must have seen glimpses of the aftermath of Karsus's Avatar spell. The Netherese are this kind of people, so are the elves.
Brennus didn't become a very powerful diviner on his own. He must have had an excellent teacher who lived long before Karsus was born. Said teacher, together with his peers (I'm not sure if Telamont's magical inclinations include divination), must have managed to glean significant pieces of Netheril's Fall... |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 23:28:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Aroden, the god of prophesy (in Golarion) was slain, probably by Asmodeus, who is canon to both settings.
Ergo, I say that ALL prophesy is no longer valid since the death of Aroden. 
(As always, I still believe there is only ONE planer reality and all are connected). 
I'm pretty sure that we don't know why Aroden died...
yep they said constantly that they would not ever reveal that..... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 22:18:05
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
@Sage: I was thinking on the enclave that was shifted to the Plane of Shadows/Shadowfell to avoid something horrible and had reappeared in the area in/around Anaroch[sp?] during the 1360s/1370s. I had forgotten the one you referenced. 
Are you referring to Negarath... the setting for Erik Scott de Bie's Depths of Madness novel?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 19:35:29
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Three blades shall rise
when the eye in the crown goes dim.
The lost land will be found,
The pact of Erecyndlas shattered,
And the fallen queen shall walk the path of fire once more.
The dark ladys face reveals all.
Hmmmm. I like the idea that the three blades that rise are Mask in the form of a blade "slaying" Leira (which is secretly not true), then Tyr's blade slaying Helm, and finally Cyric "slaying" Mystra. On this piece though, I could accept many other options.
The eye in the crown is Myrkul in the crown of Horns and it means in the days following the "Night of Myrkul's Eye". The lost land that's found is Abeir. The fallen Queen who walks the path of fire is actually Mystra who is walking a path of blue fire back to the realms. The dark lady's face that reveals all is Leira slaying Shar and ultimately revealing her plot in the spellplague.
An interesting interpretation, and not one that I'd thought of... Not sure that I'd go with it, myself, though -- I've never had any interest in Leira, and I think it's evident enough that she's dead.
Still, if it works for you, run with it!  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 19:33:00
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Aroden, the god of prophesy (in Golarion) was slain, probably by Asmodeus, who is canon to both settings.
Ergo, I say that ALL prophesy is no longer valid since the death of Aroden.
(As always, I still believe there is only ONE planer reality and all are connected).
I'm pretty sure that we don't know why Aroden died... |
| Xnella Moonblade-Thann |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 18:34:02
@sleyvas: You're interpretation is much better than I could have come up with. It doesn't help that I was up until the wee hours of the morn with a mild case of insomnia and my brain was running on empty, plus the storm going on yesterday/last night was not helping (I was worried that the guy who plows the dooryard was going to hit my car, plus the people next door to where I was staying just had to go drifting in the parking lot next to us at two in the morning...not fun when you're ready to call the local police to report idiots. Sorry for rambling off like that and going a little off-topic...).
@Sage: I was thinking on the enclave that was shifted to the Plane of Shadows/Shadowfell to avoid something horrible and had reappeared in the area in/around Anaroch[sp?] during the 1360s/1370s. I had forgotten the one you referenced. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 16:11:50
Aroden, the god of prophesy (in Golarion) was slain, probably by Asmodeus, who is canon to both settings.
Ergo, I say that ALL prophesy is no longer valid since the death of Aroden.
(As always, I still believe there is only ONE planer reality and all are connected). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 15:38:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
And not to stray too far from the Realms, but I do believe that on Golarion they had a failed prophecy that was linked to Aroden, the last Azlanti, dying when he should have ushered in a new age.
'Tis true. He was supposed to show back up on Golarion, and died, instead. And since then, most prophecies have failed, leading to the name the Age of Lost Omens.
Rifty nifty spin on things, thinks I.
For one of my Hooks, I wrote what may or may not have been a prophecy -- I left it for the DMs to determine if it was a prophecy or not, and what it meant, either way.
Three blades shall rise
when the eye in the crown goes dim.
The lost land will be found,
The pact of Erecyndlas shattered,
And the fallen queen shall walk the path of fire once more.
The dark ladys face reveals all.
That's a neat one. Sounds like it could be from a book of poems/prose in the Realms. Dark lady's face...could that be a reference to either Shar or Lloth?
I'm thinking it has something to do with the night of the new moon, myself... But I've never really worked out, for myself, any real meaning for this one.
When I made this one up, I wasn't concerned with meaning -- just something that sounded good and reasonably cryptic. 
Hmmmm. I like the idea that the three blades that rise are Mask in the form of a blade "slaying" Leira (which is secretly not true), then Tyr's blade slaying Helm, and finally Cyric "slaying" Mystra. On this piece though, I could accept many other options.
The eye in the crown is Myrkul in the crown of Horns and it means in the days following the "Night of Myrkul's Eye". The lost land that's found is Abeir. The fallen Queen who walks the path of fire is actually Mystra who is walking a path of blue fire back to the realms. The dark lady's face that reveals all is Leira slaying Shar and ultimately revealing her plot in the spellplague. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 15:20:26
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Sage, speaking of the Halruaans, what about the Netherese? Weren't they also somewhat able to fortell the future and that's why they moved one of their floating cities into another dimension? Or is my brain messing with me again because it's wicked late and I should be in bed? XP
I'm inclined to agree with Wooly.
There were undoubtedly powerful diviners among the Netherese, but I wouldn't think they'd have been prescient enough to have foreseen the Folly of Karsus.
In terms of what you're referencing above, I suspect you're probably thinking of Selūne saving the Enclave of Opus by shifting it away from the Prime Material Prime. Opus's save from apparent demise during Karsus's Folly was briefly referenced in the entry for Opus in the N:EoM boxed set. Whereupon it becomes Selūnarra in Lost Empires of Faerūn and now resides in Selūne's realm. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 14:01:17
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
And not to stray too far from the Realms, but I do believe that on Golarion they had a failed prophecy that was linked to Aroden, the last Azlanti, dying when he should have ushered in a new age.
'Tis true. He was supposed to show back up on Golarion, and died, instead. And since then, most prophecies have failed, leading to the name the Age of Lost Omens.
Rifty nifty spin on things, thinks I.
For one of my Hooks, I wrote what may or may not have been a prophecy -- I left it for the DMs to determine if it was a prophecy or not, and what it meant, either way.
Three blades shall rise
when the eye in the crown goes dim.
The lost land will be found,
The pact of Erecyndlas shattered,
And the fallen queen shall walk the path of fire once more.
The dark ladys face reveals all.
That's a neat one. Sounds like it could be from a book of poems/prose in the Realms. Dark lady's face...could that be a reference to either Shar or Lloth?
I'm thinking it has something to do with the night of the new moon, myself... But I've never really worked out, for myself, any real meaning for this one.
When I made this one up, I wasn't concerned with meaning -- just something that sounded good and reasonably cryptic. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 13:58:55
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Sage, speaking of the Halruaans, what about the Netherese? Weren't they also somewhat able to fortell the future and that's why they moved one of their floating cities into another dimension? Or is my brain messing with me again because it's wicked late and I should be in bed? XP
There's not really any indication they knew what was coming -- they were planning to go into Shadow already, and the trip coincided with Karsus's Ultimate Folly spell.
And actually, we have three different canon versions of when they went. They either left the day before, or earlier the same morning, or right when the Fall started. I personally favor them leaving the day before, because while it strains believability to have the two events that close, it's less of a strain than the other two options. |
| Xnella Moonblade-Thann |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 07:23:23
Sage, speaking of the Halruaans, what about the Netherese? Weren't they also somewhat able to fortell the future and that's why they moved one of their floating cities into another dimension? Or is my brain messing with me again because it's wicked late and I should be in bed? XP |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 07:11:53
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The Abbalayar were some well sighted folk apparently...it is true. The Nar'ysr especially...
In the Realms, we also can't wholly dismiss the considerable divination abilities of those particularly prescient Halruaans. |
| Xnella Moonblade-Thann |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 07:04:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
And not to stray too far from the Realms, but I do believe that on Golarion they had a failed prophecy that was linked to Aroden, the last Azlanti, dying when he should have ushered in a new age.
'Tis true. He was supposed to show back up on Golarion, and died, instead. And since then, most prophecies have failed, leading to the name the Age of Lost Omens.
Rifty nifty spin on things, thinks I.
For one of my Hooks, I wrote what may or may not have been a prophecy -- I left it for the DMs to determine if it was a prophecy or not, and what it meant, either way.
Three blades shall rise
when the eye in the crown goes dim.
The lost land will be found,
The pact of Erecyndlas shattered,
And the fallen queen shall walk the path of fire once more.
The dark ladys face reveals all.
That's a neat one. Sounds like it could be from a book of poems/prose in the Realms. Dark lady's face...could that be a reference to either Shar or Lloth?
Hey, anybody else here at the 'Keep have something that could be a prophecy if interpreted correctly? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 05:26:21
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
And not to stray too far from the Realms, but I do believe that on Golarion they had a failed prophecy that was linked to Aroden, the last Azlanti, dying when he should have ushered in a new age.
'Tis true. He was supposed to show back up on Golarion, and died, instead. And since then, most prophecies have failed, leading to the name the Age of Lost Omens.
Rifty nifty spin on things, thinks I.
For one of my Hooks, I wrote what may or may not have been a prophecy -- I left it for the DMs to determine if it was a prophecy or not, and what it meant, either way.
Three blades shall rise
when the eye in the crown goes dim.
The lost land will be found,
The pact of Erecyndlas shattered,
And the fallen queen shall walk the path of fire once more.
The dark ladys face reveals all. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 05:03:29
The Abbalayar were some well sighted folk apparently...it is true. The Nar'ysr especially... |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 03:41:08
Look at the first chapter or so of "Empires of the Shining Sea" for a good look at prophecies Schend-style.
-- George Krashos
|
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 03:13:33
Well, you have the prophecies of the different churches, and then prophecies of the mages and diviners. Then you have the prophecies of the mad who think they hear gods and such, prophecies used to manipulate from outsiders and elements. Then there are the false prophecies developed against others (churches, governments, nobles, royals, wizards and so on) to bring them down or cause them harm.
The main reason Alaundo gets huge credit is because his prophecies has a huge success rate (only seeing 'True' prophecies).
So Most Prophecies have mix results, still when they do come true... then the speaker/source gains power. |
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