| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 17 Dec 2012 : 08:48:04
In 5e/D&Dnext, would you like to see more attention and development given to the world of Toril beyond the continent of Faerun?
Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, Anchorome, Katashaka, and Osse; should they be given some attention? Should they get their own books, or one big book for all of them? Should they be explored from the Faerunian perspective or from their own perspective?
Or should they be left off the edge of the map as far off lands our faerunian characters have only ever heard of as stories, their very existence in doubt, or as blank slates for DM's to develop freely? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Varl |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 17:39:13
Yep; just like those too.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 17:38:10
Like Sossal or Shaareach? |
| Varl |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 17:36:13
quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
I would like to see some material for places like the Border Kingdoms, the Shaar, Lapaliiya, Tashalar, Chult and Tharsult before we get stuff on other continents, though isnt Zakhara on the same continent, just a long way to the south?
+1.
While I wouldn't mind seeing other continents detailed out, I'd buy them for sure, but there's plenty in the mainland that could (deserve) more fleshing out than distant lands. |
| GRYPHON |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 15:02:36
No, leave them off the edge of the map... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 10:10:57
They really wanted everything in 3e to be all about 'shadow-stuff', so in a perverse way it made some sense for them to focus on Rokugan.
I found - as I worked on the Kara-tur project - that the Shadowlands stuff merged fairly well with the 3e 'shadowy' flavor (in fact, I was thinking the Shadweave was first known in the east and used by corrupted Wujen).
If you fast-forward to 4e with it's shadowfel, its an even better fit. I just wish they had adapted the material to Kara-Tur, rather then presenting it as Rokugan (I agree it wasn't generic enough - it was VERY setting-specific). In the end I managed to merge quite a few ideas into K-T, simply because we had a couple of decades there with no K-T info. |
| Razz |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 03:45:28
I dunno, Sage, I tried. Personally, all the "Shadowlands" stuff was annoying. Like, how was I to adapt that for Kara-Tur? Or the Samurai clan stuff? Half the monsters were Rokugan setting monsters, granted, some were easily adaptable. The oni are perfect for any Asian setting, but their (Native) subtype and Shadowlands origins made it difficult to adapt. I wasn't sure if they should even have the Spirit subtype or not, and if not, why don't they have the Spirit subtype?
I guess if everything was changed from "Shadowlands" to "Underworld" since that seems to be the equivalent in Kara-Tur lore. The prestige classes were tough, too, since many were reliant, both fluff and mechanics, on a Rokugan specific lore. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 01:48:22
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The only parts of the original OA book I really ever used were the classes, equipment, and honor rules. And a few bits in the government andculture sections and the building interiors and designs found in the back. That's about it. I ignored most of the racial info, as well as all the setting lore.
I haven't ever thought about adapting the honour rules. I've always just used a derivative of the Kuritan honour system in BATTLETECH for my games.
Maybe I need to look into them again. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 21:53:24
The only parts of the original OA book I really ever used were the classes, equipment, and honor rules. And a few bits in the government andculture sections and the building interiors and designs found in the back. That's about it. I ignored most of the racial info, as well as all the setting lore. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 23:19:43
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There were two rulebooks by that name, but the second one (3e) was for Lot5R (Rokugan), not Kara-Tur (which is still looked upon as very strange decision by many).
I wouldn't say that the 3e Oriental Adventures tome was for Rokugan, specifically. There were some generic D&D rules-elements presented that certainly weren't world-specific, and could easily be adapted for Realms use.
And, as I recall from a discussion way back on the Wizards boards when OA was first released... that was the way designer James Wyatt intended it to be.
That was barely half the book, however. To this day I look through my 3E OA book and sneer in disgust at how half of it is almost useless. I have to adapt Rokugan stuff into my Kara-Tur games, which is not fun. Because the Rokugan material in there is heavily steeped in Rokugan lore. WotC also fails to do follow-up books. I really wish they released a new, expanded OA book after 3.5 was released to make up for their first mistake.
Really? A lot of the 'Rokugan' material is fairly generic in my eyes, and could easily be adapted for use in Kara-Tur based campaigns. And I tended to find a lot of convenient comparison between established Kara-Turan-specific setting tidbits, and that presented through the 'Rokugan' material. But maybe that was just me.  |
| Razz |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 16:37:42
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Ed convinced me. Kara-Tur, Maztica and the other real world culture locales need some serious tweaking. Perhaps even exision from the Realms.
Trying to delve further into the realm of fantasy for those realms beyond fearun is daunting, as its -a lot- more work but also because finding the right tone to fit into the Forgotten Realms flavor might be hard.
I am quite content if they give me more detail from Fearun proper, there are many regional sourcebooks that can have more useful content for years to come if they define the many characteristics of them thoroughly. I think lower scaled, localised sourcebooks would be better products for it aswell.
I must confess that I do like the way Zahkara was done, still an excellent product dispite the obvious arabian influences.
I believe the success of a campaign setting involves a region to which you can have your own style of gameplay.
I would not enjoy the Realms half as much had there not been elements of every real-world culture in it. There are places in Faerun if you wish to run an Arabian setting, Aztec/Mayana/Native American setting, Viking setting, Celtic setting, Oriental setting, Egytpian and Sumerian/Babylonian setting, ancient Russian setting, Greek setting, medieval Europe settings, an underwater setting, Underdark setting, a space setting (via Spelljammer's Realmspace), heck, even a potential monstrous and steampunk setting (if they ever fully detail Veldorn and Lantan, that is). I'd say it's missing a Gothic setting so far. In addition to this it also has unique regions for settings not really tied to any actual real-world culture like the Silver Marches, Bloodstone Lands, Evermeet, etc.
Now I do repeat: elements. Not full blown carbon copies. I do agree that the lands beyond Faerun need a serious overhaul. Keep the best elements and make the rest more unique and Realmsian.
My terrible feeling (and probably the truth none of us want to admit) is that WotC will never get around to doing any such Beyond Faerun books. They probably feel that it's too big of a project to handle. In-house, that is. So what I don't understand is why don't they license it to someone else, but allow them the freedom to tie in as many Faerunian elements into the settings in order to tie the products together.
For example, have someone else produce Kara-Tur supplements. Slap an FR Logo on it, have the lore tie in to Faerun in a few places but allow the rest to be handled by the development department of whatever company they license it to. Pretty much do for these other settings what they did with Dragon and Dungeon Magazine with Paizo Publishing. |
| Razz |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 16:26:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There were two rulebooks by that name, but the second one (3e) was for Lot5R (Rokugan), not Kara-Tur (which is still looked upon as very strange decision by many).
I wouldn't say that the 3e Oriental Adventures tome was for Rokugan, specifically. There were some generic D&D rules-elements presented that certainly weren't world-specific, and could easily be adapted for Realms use.
And, as I recall from a discussion way back on the Wizards boards when OA was first released... that was the way designer James Wyatt intended it to be.
That was barely half the book, however. To this day I look through my 3E OA book and sneer in disgust at how half of it is almost useless. I have to adapt Rokugan stuff into my Kara-Tur games, which is not fun. Because the Rokugan material in there is heavily steeped in Rokugan lore. WotC also fails to do follow-up books. I really wish they released a new, expanded OA book after 3.5 was released to make up for their first mistake. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Dec 2012 : 06:05:29
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And, as I recall from a discussion way back on the Wizards boards when OA was first released... that was the way designer James Wyatt intended it to be.
I wish the old Wizards boards were still available. There's a lot that was said in the old OA forums that showed what to use in the realms and what to ignore. The fact that OA never got even a web enhancement for the realms made it a tough nut to take, Sage.
Wasn't there one planned, though? I seem to recall hearing something about that. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 23 Dec 2012 : 03:55:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And, as I recall from a discussion way back on the Wizards boards when OA was first released... that was the way designer James Wyatt intended it to be.
I wish the old Wizards boards were still available. There's a lot that was said in the old OA forums that showed what to use in the realms and what to ignore. The fact that OA never got even a web enhancement for the realms made it a tough nut to take, Sage. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Dec 2012 : 01:57:59
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There were two rulebooks by that name, but the second one (3e) was for Lot5R (Rokugan), not Kara-Tur (which is still looked upon as very strange decision by many).
I wouldn't say that the 3e Oriental Adventures tome was for Rokugan, specifically. There were some generic D&D rules-elements presented that certainly weren't world-specific, and could easily be adapted for Realms use.
And, as I recall from a discussion way back on the Wizards boards when OA was first released... that was the way designer James Wyatt intended it to be. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 19:28:37
There were two rulebooks by that name, but the second one (3e) was for Lot5R (Rokugan), not Kara-Tur (which is still looked upon as very strange decision by many).
Kara-Tur had the first sourcebook by that name, a 1e boxed set, a large sourcebook that updated stuff to 2e (Ronin Challenge), about a dozen adventures (almost all actually set outside of K-T proper on the neo-Japanese island chains), and the Kara-Tur trail map.
The Horde was another box that is sometimes lumped-in with the K-T stuff, but it was actually a sub-setting linking the two main settings (Kara-Tur and Faerūn). All three settings, along with Maztica are considered Forgotten Realms. Although Zakahara is on Toril, it was never marketed with the FR logo. Realmspace got a similar treatment - it was marketed under the SJ logo. The final 6th (7th if you count the solar system) Torillian setting is Malatra, which had a very brief lifespan and was part of the 'Living' (Jungle) RPGA campaigns. That region was located just to the south of Kara-Tur, and like The Horde, is sometimes considered a part of K-T.
The Horde setting over-lapped K-T quite a bit, and had three adventure modules of its own, which actually took place in (in part) in regions of Kara-Tur and Shou-Lung (so they could be considered K-T modules as well).
There were some Kits and PrC's that were linked to OA as well but were marketed under the D&D core brand. The 3e ones were usually linked to Rokugan instead.
Several artifacts from K-T also appear in the (2e) Book of Artifacts, and the region is also mentioned several times in the Realmspace Spelljammer accessory. |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 18:38:43
Also, if I'm not mistaken, hasn't there already been a couple of books about Kara-Tur? Something called Oriental Adventures or somesuch? |
| Aryalómė |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 18:37:07
I think a very in-depth sourcebook for these lands would be great, but leave the main info on Faerun. Like others have said, it still has vastly underdeveloped places that have yet to be explored. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 17:48:11
I'd probably take some minor issue with the 'originality' of Pathfinder cultures, but I was very impressed by the way they handled "the rest of the world". Much better, IMHO, then any edition of FR has done.
Not only does the rest of the world get a good-sized nod in the campaign guide, but Golarion also manages to slip-in small bits of those cultures right in the main campaign setting. In that way, even if the DM doesn't want to bother with those areas, players can still have the option of running PCs from those regions with minimal fuss (with DM permission, of course).
I think the 4e team tried to do something similar with 'Shou towns', and also some obscure bits they tried to tie into other areas (the GHotR entries concerning Mazticans in Faerūn, and the vingette connecting the Utter East to Zakhara).
This is why I advocated for a Shou-takeover of Semphar (even though I like Semphar), because I wanted the Shou to have access to the Sea of Fallen Stars (without the need for the gate, which probably doesn't even work post-Spellplague). Along with that, I want to see active trading with Zakhara and points further away. Even if we don't get the details about those other continents (some) of us want, at least let us know they are there. It seems odd to just keep ignoring them. |
| deserk |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 15:27:35
Personally I would love if the other continents were more Realmsified as well as further detailed. Otherwise they are inaccessible for me, as a Forgotten Realms fan.
One thing I like about Pathfinder is that they've managed to make practically every continent in it, interesting and unique. With original fantasy concepts as well as concepts that take the role of an equivalent RW culture.
Would also love to see more detail on areas of Faerun that aren't that well-detailed. The Northlander Isles of the Trackless Sea (not the Moonshae ones, but Ruathym, Gundarlun, Tuern, etc), Raurin, Sossal, the Nelanther Isles, the Utter East, the Hordelands, Murghom and Semphar, come to mind. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 02:37:49
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Perhaps the Spellplague and the time jump might be of use after all. Giving the 'Realms Yonder' a sufficient twist to their flavour and details can be done somewhat easier with the time for change to have occured and the planar turmoil Mystras assassination caused.
I fear washing the historic analogies away would conflict with earlier material a tad too much though.
Not necessarily; this is where that century time skip can be seen as a blessing. It's more than enough time for the culture to have diverged and changed into something more than the historical analogue it was before, especially in the case of Maztica- what affect did a century on another planet have for that continent? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 00:59:33
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
Bladewind: The hordelands were redone just before the end of Dragon Magazine, although I can't recall the issue, adding significantly more lore and helping to fit them to the realms that much better.
'Twas DRAGON #349.
Also, there's the web enhancement for "The Hordelands" article at the paizo.com site:- http://paizo.com/dragonissues/349/DR349_Supplement.pdf |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 00:07:15
Perhaps the Spellplague and the time jump might be of use after all. Giving the 'Realms Yonder' a sufficient twist to their flavour and details can be done somewhat easier with the time for change to have occured and the planar turmoil Mystras assassination caused.
I fear washing the historic analogies away would conflict with earlier material a tad too much though. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 19 Dec 2012 : 23:49:33
Bladewind: The hordelands were redone just before the end of Dragon Magazine, although I can't recall the issue, adding significantly more lore and helping to fit them to the realms that much better.
I think a treatment given to each of the far lands similar to that and adding proper lore behind it would help to make the whole thing better. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 19 Dec 2012 : 23:29:26
Ed convinced me. Kara-Tur, Maztica and the other real world culture locales need some serious tweaking. Perhaps even exision from the Realms.
Trying to delve further into the realm of fantasy for those realms beyond fearun is daunting, as its -a lot- more work but also because finding the right tone to fit into the Forgotten Realms flavor might be hard.
I am quite content if they give me more detail from Fearun proper, there are many regional sourcebooks that can have more useful content for years to come if they define the many characteristics of them thoroughly. I think lower scaled, localised sourcebooks would be better products for it aswell.
I must confess that I do like the way Zahkara was done, still an excellent product dispite the obvious arabian influences. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 19 Dec 2012 : 05:25:02
I will say that my biggest problem with Maztica and Kara-tur is that they read less like fantasy worlds based off meso-america and the orient respectively and more like actual meso-america and the orient, only with all the myths and magic being real. So further development on these locales, along with the as of yet untouched continents, would preferably be more dressed up than "here's a real world culture with a different name".
Incidentally , that was the same reason I had problems with Mulhorand and Unther.
I'd also love to see a full book on Abier/Returned Abeir, as I've stated before.
I do get the skepticism regarding the quality of new lore- I've said myself that a part of me really hopes they don't give too much further development into Many-Arrows out of fear of them ruining it- but in this case I put my natural cynicism aside and hope for the best. By and large, I'm a fan of most of what 4e brought to the table for the realms- granted, I'm pretty much the only one, but I've never let that hold me back before- so I'm not too worried about what future development will bring, especially for the virtually untouched Anchorome, Osse, and Katashaka. |
| rjfras |
Posted - 18 Dec 2012 : 23:27:27
I would like to see some material for places like the Border Kingdoms, the Shaar, Lapaliiya, Tashalar, Chult and Tharsult before we get stuff on other continents, though isnt Zakhara on the same continent, just a long way to the south? |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 18 Dec 2012 : 23:20:18
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Edit: I would lay out funds for printed material. DDI-only material is an annoying concept.
I would also second the idea for printed and/or PDF material. What would be nice is if the print material were enough for a quick overview (think Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, the smaller one, or one of the nation books from Paizo) that would allow a player to join and have a good overview in 20-30 pages. Then, the pdf material could go up to, say, 80-pages or so, being more in depth and more focused on a greater understanding.
Mind you, many may not like this idea, but I don't know that they'd print a 110-120-page sourcebook just to appease me for all the information in one book. Mind you, that would be per REGION. I could certainly see campaign-sized books for the overviews, but the smaller books for each "nation." that would get really dicey given how many nations you're talking (at least the main nations per region, so Shou Lung, Wa, Kozakura, Cormyr, Sword Coast, Dalelands, Thay, Lantan, Maztica as a whole...)
I, frankly, stopped all subscriptions when Dungeon and Dragon both went to DDI only. While I love Paizo, my wallet did not like me so much (and my wife "convinced" me  ) |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 18 Dec 2012 : 23:10:03
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Really, the only ONLY sourcebook I want is one that heavily details Returned Abier. That way I can't be mad when they replace it with FR-Mexico again and I can continue to keep the Realms as I see fit with as much lore and information as possible.
But I agree that it would be nice to see other aspects of Toril outside of Faerūn.
I'll jump on the Returned Abeir bandwagon. In truth, I think a tome no smaller than Menzoberranzan detailing the entire world of Abeir and how...uh...Returned-Returned-Abeir (say that five times fast) has affected the planet. Elves, a wholly Torillian phenomena, are a curiosity on this world, and I am sure there are other parts of this planet that could be developed. I would lay out the funds for a book such as this.
Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara have all, if I'm not mistaken, all have extensive material on them, boxed sets and/or softcover books stretching back to AD&D, so in my opinion, small adventure-book sized updates would likely suffice (assuming reprints of the originals are possible). Katashaka, Anchorome, and Osse are tabula rasa, as far as I'm aware. Osse would be the only one of the three I'd be tempted to follow a real-world flow like they did with Maztica (have the Sword Coast cities dumping undesirables there, and so forth), but I'd be interested to see what all three could look like.
- OMH
Edit: I would lay out funds for printed material. DDI-only material is an annoying concept. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Dec 2012 : 15:42:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by vorpalanvil
The developers of the more recent versions of dnd seem to have the opposite of Midas' Touch; everything they come into contact with turns into crap.
Perhaps we could stick a little more closely to the topic?
While vorpalanvil was a little insulting in his estimation, he did make a valid point.
Right now, I like the old Zakhara material (as-is). I also like the K-T material, although it really could use a facelift (a little TOO derivative). I like the concept of Maztica, I just think they went so deep into RW derivation that it was a bit boring. WE got what we asked for with Maztica - something new. Nobody really liked everything that entailed. What if they do start detailing the rest of the world and its gawd-awful?
I keep having to ask myself, do we really want 'new' FR material? We got a face full of it in 4e, and we all saw how that worked out.
Just playing devil's advocate here - you know, the whole "Be careful what you wish for" thing. Maybe they should just stick to Faerūn for the time being, and lets see how that pans-out before we start asking for other things. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 18 Dec 2012 : 14:01:43
Really, the only ONLY sourcebook I want is one that heavily details Returned Abier. That way I can't be mad when they replace it with FR-Mexico again and I can continue to keep the Realms as I see fit with as much lore and information as possible.
But I agree that it would be nice to see other aspects of Toril outside of Faerūn. |
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