| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 18:12:30
I was just thinking about large cities in the realms, and it occurred to me that in these cities... I wonder if there might not be multiple temples to the same deity just because of the sheer number of people that need to come and go, holding them as their patron. For instance, I see certain deities as being very "loved" amongst the common folk (for instance, the more peaceful "healing" gods like Ilmater, Chauntea, Lathander). Unfortunately, manning such temples presents some defensive issues... even as it helps spread the faith. The other idea would be that they put one massive temple and then do numerous unmanned shrines. Just wondering, which path do you see as more common? |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 00:11:46
just can't stop... and guessing because I'm hungry, I'm seeing where many temples could include restaurants
Eldath and/or Istishia - her temples may run fish hatcheries, using portable holes to transport large amounts of young fish to local ponds to help keep the fishing stock plentiful (knowing that people will fish to eat, they consider the option of giving young fish a stable environment to grow without being attacked by their older kin a somewhat "peaceful" solution to a problem). The Istishians may even run a "catch and eat" restaurant along the river/pond, wherein you catch the fish and they'll clean and cook them up for a modest fee (this would be less likely with the more peaceful Eldath worshippers).
Valkur / Umberlee - their temples may have attached stores selling sailing & fishing supplies. They may also have attached fish markets and/or a seafood restaurant. They may also have a hotel to provide down on their luck sailors a place to stay for cheaper than normal. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Dec 2012 : 23:18:52
Also, the Velsharites might make a tidy profit selling fertilizer using ground bones, manure, and rotting compost. They may also run a garbage pickup service in the early morning hours using robed, gloved, hooded/masked skeletons (possibly with illusory faces). They could also run a mill service using skeletal power rather than wind or water and sell the flour or wood elsewhere. What people don't see... they don't need to think about. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Dec 2012 : 23:07:10
Oh, and without a doubt, Chauntea's temples could also follow Malar's lead and add on a restaurant. Their fare may be more vegetable and fruit oriented than the meat lover's restaurant at Malar's, but if you like the taste of tamed meat rather than gamey meat... this is your kind of place.
Also, while banks fit Waukeen's temples.... so does the idea of them having multiple attached merchant shops that they rent out, much like the gondsmen. I was never very fond of Waukeen before, but now that I think on this idea.... I can definitely see how she might thrive.
Lathander, along the same lines, could also surround themselves with lots of small shops. But his priesthood should only let people setup shops to "try and make a fresh start in life"... enabling them to try a start-up business and thrive or fail, but writing the contracts such that they need to move out within a year or so to make way for the next person who wants to make a new beginning in their life. In this way, they lessen the startup capital that people need to loan from them and draw worshippers to their temple to see the "new thing". |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Dec 2012 : 22:52:00
Thanks xaeyruudh. I like your add ons. Some other ideas came to mind after leaving the other day. I also note that some of these ideas work at multiple churches, which may cause conflicts... or it could be that in some area X church does the activity because the other church isn't as popular.
Malar (additional) - a restaurant added onto their temple. They prepare hunted game. The menu changes based on what hunters are providing. Easily provides small income and fervent worshippers to an otherwise "evil" church. They could also have a kennel for training hunting dogs (note, if they have the kennel, they probably wouldn't have the restaurant and vice-versa).
Auril (additional) - a tavern is attached to their temple. They provide cold storage for liquors and frosty mug beers as a somewhat exotic change of pace. They also offer iced teas and coffees. Doing so draws in worshippers who have been working hard in the hot sun. This makes this normally "evil" church more acceptable in their community.
Gond - a smithy attached to their temple that churns out the basic things that people need for their daily life (nails, horseshoes, shovels, etc....). Or perhaps a lumber mill if they're near a stream. Maybe an attached wood workers shop that carves wood as well. Or perhaps a ceramic shop that makes roofing tiles. Maybe a fireworks stand. The possibilities are almost endless as to the add-ons that the temple may surround themselves with. In fact, they may have certain storefronts that they just rent out on a periodic basis (such as the fireworks stand). Draws people in and they give their thanks and worship.
The Red Knight - a "game" area with a light duty kitchen. They might have areas setup to play lanceboard, sava, Go, chess, wheel-of-spells, and other classic tactical games common to the forgotten realms. This can bring in both children and adults, and they could also have a separate area for sparring/dueling (again for children and adults). For children in the sparring/dueling area they may provide trainers for a price to teach the child while the parent enjoys a game of "go" in the other room. Training could be in any of the martial arts as befit the priests or temple guards that are available (i.e. melee weapon, ranged weapons, unarmed combat, etc....). They could also support athletic "leagues" playing locally popular athletics.
Grumbar - a masonry/brick maker could be attached to his temples. Also, someone who makes ceramic items.
Istishia - a cistern that provides clean, fresh water to all who come for consumption. They could also provide public baths (possibly providing hot water baths as well) at modest expense.
Velsharoon - his temple could have an unusual type of "store". If someone needs some kind of simple, monotonous chore done over and over non-stop... you bring it to their temple, explain the work, and then behind closed doors meticulously clean skeletons are ordered to perform the near mindless function over and over until the work is completed.... and they do it for cheap. A common function is that of laundry work. In fact, Velsharites commonly run a dirty diaper service in which they pickup soiled diapers and return clean ones (because the bleach the skeletons are putting their hands in only serves to clean them more).... and this service makes them valued members of the community. It is important to note that the "skeletons" used in such service are usually either animal skeletons or "enemy" skeletons.... such as orcs and goblins. Noone wants to think of "grandma" eternally cleaning soiled diapers.
Lathander - a store for baby needs (small clothing, diaper cleaning services, baby foods, young kids toys, etc..) could be attached to their temple. Also, they may provide daycare type services at their temple for working parents. They may also have a gym in which people can train. They may also provide gymnastics training. They may also manage athletic "leagues", both adult and child, with a nearby playfield and a relaxation area for afterward which provides cool drinks and light food.
Oghma - they may provide learning of all sorts (reading, writing, arithmetic, foreign languages, scientific principles, magical principles, monster lore, religious lore, planar lore, history, alchemical lore, herbal lore, etc...) for both adults and children. They may also work to run an apprenticeship program within a given village in order to give young adults sufficient training that they can choose their proper path in life. They may run a bookstore that's attached to their temple, using their fledgling apprentices to copy book pages as part of their training and then binding the acceptable book pages into a complete book for sale. They may also have a local "theatre" attached to their temple wherein they allow travelling bardic troupes to put on shows for a small fee (and they use their skills of invention to bring the show to life).
Helm - a locksmith's shop could be attached to their temple, selling door and chest locks. Also, a guard dog / hunting dog (or other animal) training kennel. They could also have a small hotel type area in which they rent rooms to mercenary guards who are down on their luck and seeking employment.
Ilmater - their temple could serve as a "hospital" or "home for those who have noone else" to take care of the sick and infirm. In addition, they could have an attached apothecary that makes up basic herbal cures and "physics". However, this store may also sell the basic healing needs to healers on the go (bandages, plaster cast material, crutches, arm slings, etc...)
Lliira - they could have a store attached to their temple that sells basic party planning materials. Maybe they sell "nameday candles" that are candles in the shape of numbers to put on cakes. Maybe they also sell other candles for decorations and/or provide the proper smell for the season. Maybe they make banners to order but also have a stock of banners for certain standard holidays common to the region. On the other side of the temple, maybe they have a dress shop that may also sell "dancing attire". They may also sell raw textiles to groups arranging a party/festival and have room set aside for "knitting parties".
Talona - her temple could have a store attached that sells insecticides, rat poison, etc... Also, the store might function as a "zoo" of sorts of exotic snakes, etc...
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Dec 2012 : 21:01:46
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
SLeyvas do you mean Lliira instead of Leira? Forgery sounds like Leira.... I guess illusionists can be entertainers.
Was definitely thinking Leira, and yes, illusionists as entertainers. Why use puppeteers when you can have an illusionist "show" the kids a story. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 10 Dec 2012 : 17:58:51
I agree big city areas would likely have multiple manned temples and even more shrines of the same god present, all to reach as many citizans with their faith. I get the impression the architecture of most fearunian cities is usually dominanted by gaudy cathedrals of the many gods. Because the faiths are mostly competetive it's highly likely the holy houses are huge, soundly build, defensible and beautiful in design. I think most temples would prefer a single main cathedral like structure per 5 miles of city area, with about 1 to 5 manned temples and up to 25 shrines in that same district.
I suspect one can find a lot of unsanctioned personal shrines within the homes and workplaces of citizans, and some can grow to exeptional sizes. In rural areas they are relatively more prevalent, but city folk are sure to have them aswell. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 10 Dec 2012 : 07:46:35
I like the way you think sleyvas, particularly Leira's entertainers and Kelemvor's funeral hardware/leaflets. Some more thoughts, some perhaps far-fetched.
Akadi: delivery services (feels a bit Hermes, but Akadi's portfolio includes speed and flying creatures)
Auril: an addon to Malar's butcher shops; freezes meat (or anything else; priestesses of Auril don't judge) solid for storage/preservation
Azuth: spells-for-hire, scrolls for purchase
Bane: heavy armor and weapons, spike attachment to armor/shields/barding, collections agents for small private businesses with difficult accounts-receivable. One Stop Bully Shop! 
Deneir: I like your literacy training idea... I also like the idea of a church of Deneir being the Realms equivalent of a Sylvan Learning Center. I know D&D doesn't really address issues like learning disabilities or ADHD (or even "Damaran as a Second Language") but there's no reason it couldn't in our own home games.
Eldath: consignment dealer for local unknown/amateur artists: the church displays your painting/sculpture in a gallery, and puts a price tag on it; nobles come to check it out (because you just never know who's going to be the next famous artist, and you want their work from before they were famous); you get some % of the sale price - the priests themselves are frequently artists as well, and sell some of their works to support the faith.
Gargauth: "consultants" who dig up dirt on individuals and companies, and assist with coups and hostile takeovers. Of course, customers never hear the name of Gargauth mentioned.
Gond: construction and repair of mechanical devices. You bring in an idea, with or without a coherent blueprint. If the priests think your idea is feasible and profitable, you can sign a paper giving the church the right to produce and use your idea; in return, you get a % of the profits earned by the church using your idea for a specified period of time (usually one year) - the church makes the device; in most cases you (as the one who came up with the idea) are given an option to purchase the device from the church at a discounted rate, subject to any laws that may exist in your city - for example, many cities have laws prohibiting citizens from owning what we would term "weapons of mass destruction."
Gwaeron/Shaundakul: guides for hire. potentially also mapmakers.
Lathander: entertainers, of the gymnastics and wrestling flavor.
Loviatar: the punishment you so richly deserve and can't get from the priestesses of Sharess because they're lily-livers. Not your daddy's festhall.
Savras: psychics, fortune-tellers, lie detectors, seances, card trick performers, those guys with the three shells and you have to guess which shell the thing is under...
Shar: drugs, escort services (both the sexual and nonsexual ones)
Sharess: escort services (mostly the sex-oriented ones; they're more fun than Shar's followers and you're more likely to survive/remember the night)
Sune: cosmetics, advice for attracting/keeping lovers/mates, live models for painters/sculptors, singers, dancers, poets
Talona: poisons obviously, but also drugs and all sorts of herbal concoctions... even healing and antidotes - priests and followers of Talona can appear to be honest and helpful members of a community, keeping their worship secret, and work as apothecaries and herbal/holistic healers
Talos: demolition services.
Tempus: motivational speakers, orators/historians, written accounts of any war fought anywhere in the Realms
Tiamat: money-changers, banks, gem/jewelry appraisers - of course they keep their religion secret - their interest rates are higher than the temples of Waukeen, but they're willing to loan to high-risk applicants that the priests of Waukeen may reject... and their collections agents are kinda violent.
|
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 10 Dec 2012 : 05:40:18
SLeyvas do you mean Lliira instead of Leira? Forgery sounds like Leira.... I guess illusionists can be entertainers. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Dec 2012 : 03:53:12
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I would tend to agree with CoA (shocking, I know!) on how temples are distributed. Also, keep in mind that "temple" can mean many things in the Realms- some of them double as something else, be it a fest-hall (Sune, Sharess) a bank or merchant hall (Waukeen) or what-have-you. Tempus usually has temples that also serve as training academies or barracks for local militia, standing armies, etc. The point is, many of the FR deities WOULD have multiple temples in large cities, simply because there would be so many people seeking their services, even if not for spiritual guidance or healing. The deities with the largest followings/most commonly needed services would naturally have more temples and shrines. It's sort of like what CoA mentioned, where some faiths have a chapel or shrine in every ward or even several in the same ward, depending on the popularity of the deity or usefulness of the faith's services.
On the shrine versus temple thing, I'm of the mindset that shrines are unmanned places with a statue/plaque/painting/specially tended garden,etc... Occasionally, a shrine may be visited to be checked upon, cleaned/groomed, possibly re-blessed, and any offerings gathered. Temples are manned places (the size of a "temple" can vary from a small chapel to a huge cathedral). I only state this to explain the terms we're using in this discussion.
I do like this explanation you put forth on how "temples" may function as other businesses. That's a very good point, such that there may be lots of small temples of Waukeen functioning as local banks. In fact, I think it might be a very interesting discussion on HOW these churches might function as businesses, because that might really shed some light on how they would function different than them all being "scroll/potion emporiums for divine magic". Let me put forth some ideas here, and lets see if anyone else comes up with some others of interest.
Chauntea
The temples of Chauntea might also function as local farmer's markets. They could rent out the space and thereby gather income, meanwhile promoting the growth of agriculture
Malar
The temples of Malar might have on-site butchers AND they may also have taxidermy specialists for making mounted trophies of your kills. In this way, they gain acceptance from the common man who hunts for his food but may not have the equipment or knowledge from proper meat preparation (or who has no way to freeze all the meat from his kill and doesn't want to see the creature go to waste).
Tyr
The temple may provide detective services, or they might provide counsel services. They could also help prepare legal documents.
Deneir
The temple may provide specialized documents (of all sorts). They could provide bookbinding services. They could provide teaching services for young people in how to read. They may provide materials for making magic scrolls.
Milil
The temple could make/sell/buy musical instruments. They could provide music lessons for the young. They could be a place that provides entertainment in the form of bands for parties. They could rent out space for bands to get together and practice.
Mask
The temple could work as a pawn shop/fence. The temple could provide private detectives to discreetly research someone. The temple could provide private retrieval services. The temple could sell maps of major building layouts locally.
Leira
The temple may provide entertainers for parties. The temple may provide forgery services.
Kelemvor
The temple may supply funeral "hardware" that would be redeployed by other churches... headstones, coffins, flower stands, urns that can easily have another god's holy symbol attached, paper strips with a generic statement for people to take (but that has an alloted space to "stamp" the symbol of another god's symbol). They may also have a "death insurance" sales office. They may also sell space in which to inter the body of one's beloved (they may even manage this space for other churches for a very modest fee as they consider it a holy rite).
You know, the more of this I write, the more I think this would make some damn good realms material. I could continue, but I think it'd be interesting to see other thoughts before investing too much time. Anyone else have some ideas. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 10 Dec 2012 : 00:41:55
I would tend to agree with CoA (shocking, I know!) on how temples are distributed. Also, keep in mind that "temple" can mean many things in the Realms- some of them double as something else, be it a fest-hall (Sune, Sharess) a bank or merchant hall (Waukeen) or what-have-you. Tempus usually has temples that also serve as training academies or barracks for local militia, standing armies, etc. The point is, many of the FR deities WOULD have multiple temples in large cities, simply because there would be so many people seeking their services, even if not for spiritual guidance or healing. The deities with the largest followings/most commonly needed services would naturally have more temples and shrines. It's sort of like what CoA mentioned, where some faiths have a chapel or shrine in every ward or even several in the same ward, depending on the popularity of the deity or usefulness of the faith's services.
As for crimes, in big cities it is nearly impossible for a crime to go unnoticed for long, simply due to the sheer number of possible witnesses, and the fact that people will almost always take notice of anything unusual going on around them. Add to that the gossip factor, which runs rampant in areas where people tend to gather in numbers (cities have lots of taverns, inns, docks, and otehr places where gossip occurs) and begin to get an idea of how nosy people can get. Of course, in rural areas, there is a similar effect, but there it happens mainly due to lack of anything else to talk about. When someone new shows up in a village, then promptly turns up missing or dead, it is big news.
Having lived in both large cities and small towns, I can attest to both cases being true. Case in point- a week ago, my "other half" ended up int he hospital after serious diabetic complications. Within minutes, my mother knew, even before he had been loaded into the ambulance, simply because one of her home-care clients lives in the same building as us! This is the small-town mentality at work. Something unusual or serious happens, in short order, EVERYONE knows about it, even if only second-hand.
The same goes with major crimes. In cities, there are always nosy neighbors who keep tabs on their neighborhoods or appoint themselves the "neighborhood watch", or who are simply bored and/or lonely and need a hobby, so they observe what goes on around them. Suspicious behavior and/or events draw attentuion, unless they are very well hidden, or the area is already so dangerous or violent that people are immune to it. I could see this in perhaps Luskan or Certain parts of Waterdeep, but most cities would soon be buzzing with rumors, at the very least. And that sort of thing tends to bring the attention of the Watch, who often have paid informants. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 10 Dec 2012 : 00:34:14
The meaning of Shrine versus Temple isn't clear cut to me. (Although I think it is defined somewhere like Powers and Pantheons for the purposes of the realms). Some temples are called "Shrine of _______" like "THe Dark Shrine" was a major temple of Bane. In my mind I picture a shrine being something like a statue, monument, garden, etc. Whereas a temple has a staff.
I don't think clergy have to be clerics or spellcasters. I don't see why a commoner couldn't be called a priestess or priest if they are wise religious leaders. You don't need magic to lead a worship ceremony or provide religious counsel. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 09 Dec 2012 : 23:46:54
Hmm , difference between a temple and a shrine? My first offer, I reserve the right to revise, would be that:
A Temple is invested by clergy all of the time, a shrine as simple as an open altar is a site dedicated to the deity and might never or occasionally have clergy on site. Of chapel is a somewhat in between a shrine and a temple in that a chapel will at set times have clergy there maybe all the time, maybe some of the time.
Oh the Watch clearly would not want any religious war going on in any community, no matter its size. Of course some Watch might not be strong enough to stop such a war either.
As for crimes being detected, community size may not matter that much. It is more important how well the community knows on what is going on.
In a rural setting on a remote farm a person could be killed each month, if not from local community and be safe from detection.
In a city it can be possible to commit a crime in one ward, change name and move to another ward and not be caught.
However both possibilities can be discovered with an magical enabled Watch or sometimes even citizens making reports of what they have seen. That is not seeing the crime, but that farmer rides past me about once a month with a different person that I never saw before and have not seen since. Of I heard that <foo> committed a crime in the 6th ward and I saw someone that looked like him in the 4th Ward. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 09 Dec 2012 : 23:40:32
Growing up in fairly small towns (10-14 thousand people), I'm used to situations were you'll have four or five fairly large churches and dozens of smaller ones. Even tiny towns I've passed through(2-4 hundred people) tend to have about half a dozen of them.
A city the size of Waterdeep(population 1 million or so) should have hundreds of temples and shrines. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 09 Dec 2012 : 23:02:48
Population depends on which edition you're playing in, and/or your DM's vision of the Realms. Where your game is set is also relevant. In earlier editions (IIRC) Skuld and Bezantur had roughly the same population as Waterdeep. Dhaztanar was massive. There are probably also a few huge cities in Kara-Tur, and possibly in Zakhara.
I think the idea of wards/districts cuts down on the "big city" feel. Sometimes each ward is kinda like a miniature city. In Waterdeep there are even self-sufficient neighborhoods (like the Adventurers' Quarter but I'm sure there are others) that are like small towns where everybody knows everybody. This could suggest a temple (of some sort/size) in each ward.
But with wards comes economic and/or social segregation, and that would reduce the need for multiple temples... at least for many churches of the Faerunian pantheon. No point having a temple of Siamorphe in Dock Ward, for instance, but I would see no problem with a dwarven metropolis (for example, if your campaign were set at the height of Deep Shanatar) having a full-fledged temple to the god-of-choice in each ward of the city.
If I were going to point to one dividing line between temple and shrine, it would be the presence of a "high" priest. If someone recognized as ranking in the hierarchy of the regional or Realms-wide faith is stationed at the temple, then it's a temple (or cathedral/church/whatever, or abbey if it's a monk instead of a priest). If it's staffed by non-ranking or junior clerics then it's something else: a shrine, chapel, sanctuary, etc. That's just my take on it. Size and expense probably also play a part but I think the status of "temple" should be reserved for the places that are important enough to send a high-ranking priest there... regardless of the location's size or once-upon-a-time glory.
Edit: "Services" is a great distinction; I think it overlaps with the high priest thing. You won't find "mass" being done at a shrine, or being given by an acolyte, except in emergencies or heresy situations. Temples have high priests and services; shrines lack one or both of those. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 09 Dec 2012 : 16:57:48
The Realms doesn't have that many cities big enough to warrant multiple temples to one deity.
Boulder's Gate and Waterdeep are the only two I can think off hand thanks to Calimport's.massive drop in population.
Now satellite shrines I can see being much more common and some could be big enough to administer basic religious services for people.
Of course what's the line seperating a shrine from a temple? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Dec 2012 : 09:32:36
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Funny, usually, it seems to be the other way around. The larger the city, the less likely anyone is to notice or care. IMHO, of course. This ties into the idea of small-town mentality, where everyone knows your name- and your business....
Yeah, but in a place like the dales with miles separating people... makes it harder to maybe notice what's going on in town |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 09 Dec 2012 : 00:03:17
Funny, usually, it seems to be the other way around. The larger the city, the less likely anyone is to notice or care. IMHO, of course. This ties into the idea of small-town mentality, where everyone knows your name- and your business.... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Dec 2012 : 12:55:00
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I can see multiple small/medium temples in a big city, particularly if it lacks wards. In Waterdeep, you would just (try to) put your temple in the ward most populated with "your people". But if your people are scattered all over the place...
If I lived at the south end of Waterdeep (I know it has wards; just picking this city because of its shape and size), and my temple was at the north end, I'd probably only rarely go. Tough to get all the kids to behave on that forced march, ya know? Too many distractions and not enough supervisors. Even a wagon ride would be a nightmare that I wouldn't care to endure every tenday. If that were true for most worshipers, the temple might have a tough time justifying its existence just because there would never be anybody there... which may also mean very few donations/tithes/whatever coming in. But if the temple is at the south end of the city, then the (smaller in number, but richer and less inclined to go out of their way) worshipers at the north end of the city won't go.
There isn't enough real estate equidistant from every worshiper of the city, to house a temple to every deity the citizens are going to venerate. So little shrines are inevitable. I think multiple temples are in some cases inevitable too... but they're not going to be big ornate expensive structures.
By defensive issues are you thinking rival temples hiring vandals and desecrators? Wouldn't the city watch be as accountable for watching temples as they are for watching warehouses? Temples which rely on this sort of passive defense would then support the guard with healing, goodwill, and/or some annual gift of coin/enchantments/whatever.
Maybe I'm off on a tangent. That's how I would do it though... the city watch adds the temple to their list of regular posts, keeps an eye on the building, and the temple supports the watch with a negotiated amount of coin. Temples which place a high value on this protection, and on the privilege of having a temple in that city, add semi-regular gifts to the negotiated price to maintain and increase goodwill. Something like enchanting the officers' armor and weapons, or a decanter of endless water here and there, could have a huge impact. In return, the watch puts a higher priority on investigating crimes against the temple or its priests, and maybe the lord of the city consults with the high priest from time to time, which is just smart since high priests "hear things" that are important to lords.
Yea, I'm definitely off on a tangent.
Edited in a futile attempt at clarity. 
Waterdeep was exactly the city I was thinking about. I do see your point on the watch, that makes a lot of sense... plus, I guess it being a large city, people doing nefarious deeds are more likely to attract attention. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 08 Dec 2012 : 11:41:17
The schism of the banites ended when Bane declared Fzoul his Chosen, basicly giving his interpretation a "thumbs up", more "recent ones" would have been the Risen Sun heresy within the lathanderite faith prior to the spellplague. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Dec 2012 : 07:53:30
What Wooly said, and more... The larger the realm, the more likely there be more temples of the same deity. I don't think defenses are a big issue. Rarely would people dare desecrate a temple, even if it's the one of their patron's rival. Why? Well, what's stopping the deity's rival to retaliate? The realm would be a messy battle arena... And so comes in xaeyruudh's point on the city watch, who're tasked to watch over the entire city, and not just a tiny portion of it. Also, the realm's rulers are there to intervene should the priests of various sects plunge their land into chaos. For instance, though it hadn't happened yet (at least AFAIK) in Old Thay, if Bane and Kossuth's priests openly waged 'war' against the other, the zulkirs would have no doubt put a stop to it forthwith. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 08 Dec 2012 : 04:37:32
It seems like it does happen a lot. Like Orthodox Banites vs. Fzoul Banites, the different people claiming to be pontiff of Oghma, Azuth's church splintering, and the heresies. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 08 Dec 2012 : 02:19:57
Well, I suppose they wouldn't have to. It's just something I'd like to see more of in realms fiction. People of the same faith interpreting their god's dogma and doctrine in widely different ways. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 08 Dec 2012 : 02:17:35
I think in large cities it is very likely and more realistic that there would be multiple temples to the same deity in the same city.
Especially cities like Calimport (which we know have multiple temples to the same deities like Waukeen, Azuth, etc.) In metropolises people might not be able to travel to worship at the temple across the river or in another neighborhood.
Chosen of ASmodeus - why would they have to disagree on a core tenents to have multiple temples?
I always found it strange when it was presented that cities with tens of thousands of people would have like three temples or something like that. People would have private shrines or neighborhood shrines but but I don't think that is realistic if you look at how humans actually behave (And realms humans are humans even if it is a fantasy world) Also people can worship without a temple or shrine. "Oh Finder help me write this song!!" doesn't require a temple, priest or shrine. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 19:46:10
I can see multiple small/medium temples in a big city, particularly if it lacks wards. In Waterdeep, you would just (try to) put your temple in the ward most populated with "your people". But if your people are scattered all over the place...
If I lived at the south end of Waterdeep (I know it has wards; just picking this city because of its shape and size), and my temple was at the north end, I'd probably only rarely go. Tough to get all the kids to behave on that forced march, ya know? Too many distractions and not enough supervisors. Even a wagon ride would be a nightmare that I wouldn't care to endure every tenday. If that were true for most worshipers, the temple might have a tough time justifying its existence just because there would never be anybody there... which may also mean very few donations/tithes/whatever coming in. But if the temple is at the south end of the city, then the (smaller in number, but richer and less inclined to go out of their way) worshipers at the north end of the city won't go.
There isn't enough real estate equidistant from every worshiper of the city, to house a temple to every deity the citizens are going to venerate. So little shrines are inevitable. I think multiple temples are in some cases inevitable too... but they're not going to be big ornate expensive structures.
By defensive issues are you thinking rival temples hiring vandals and desecrators? Wouldn't the city watch be as accountable for watching temples as they are for watching warehouses? Temples which rely on this sort of passive defense would then support the guard with healing, goodwill, and/or some annual gift of coin/enchantments/whatever.
Maybe I'm off on a tangent. That's how I would do it though... the city watch adds the temple to their list of regular posts, keeps an eye on the building, and the temple supports the watch with a negotiated amount of coin. Temples which place a high value on this protection, and on the privilege of having a temple in that city, add semi-regular gifts to the negotiated price to maintain and increase goodwill. Something like enchanting the officers' armor and weapons, or a decanter of endless water here and there, could have a huge impact. In return, the watch puts a higher priority on investigating crimes against the temple or its priests, and maybe the lord of the city consults with the high priest from time to time, which is just smart since high priests "hear things" that are important to lords.
Yea, I'm definitely off on a tangent.
Edited in a futile attempt at clarity. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 19:39:47
I could see it happening if the respective temples disagreed on the core tenets of the faith strongly enough. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 19:18:28
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I was just thinking about large cities in the realms, and it occurred to me that in these cities... I wonder if there might not be multiple temples to the same deity just because of the sheer number of people that need to come and go, holding them as their patron. For instance, I see certain deities as being very "loved" amongst the common folk (for instance, the more peaceful "healing" gods like Ilmater, Chauntea, Lathander). Unfortunately, manning such temples presents some defensive issues... even as it helps spread the faith. The other idea would be that they put one massive temple and then do numerous unmanned shrines. Just wondering, which path do you see as more common?
I think, for logistical purposes, the one main temple and a host of satellite shrines approach would be more likely. |
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