| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 08:18:19
I'm playing around with some ancient-history myths for the next stage of my Stonelands campaign [starting in January], focusing particularly on the dinosaurs that are said to populate the region.
Now, I've my own theories on how these dinosaurs may have originated and evolved over time. These theories mostly run all across the board -- from speculations about them being the unintended result of arcane experimentation [by the batrachi or sarrukh], to strange alien-creatures escaping from the "time-portal" on the Isle of Lurath.
But I'm curious as to what my fellow scribes can bring to the table... and consequently, how you would consider entering the possibility of dinosaurs being descended from dragons [or, perhaps, the other way round] as another theory of origin to explore? |
| 13 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 03:46:56
You left-off my favorite - the 'One World' theory.
In the beginning, the prime Material was just a vast, near-infinite (there's an oxymoron for ya') plane. Then the Godswar broke out, and the 'True World' was shattered and reformed as the Crystal Spheres we know them as today. Depending on what part of that first world species were on, some worlds got EVERYTHING (FR, GH, Gol), and some worlds got the short end of the stick (Our earth, where most of those other creatures died-out years ago because their populations weren't large enough to sustain them).
Its related to the migration theory, but rather, ALL species came from 'elsewhere', and yet, at the same time, they've "been here all along". It wasn't the creatures that changed worlds, it was the world that changed around them.  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Dec 2012 : 22:54:22
Disney Atlantis in the Demiplane of Dread, an interesting thought.
It seems to me that if the "same" species exists on two entirely different worlds (like Toril and Earth), then it can only be the result of:
- convergent evolution (form basically follows function, and a particular species "template" happens to be perfectly formed/adapted for its niche, so it appears wherever that niche needs filling)
- convergent design (as above, but the species was perfectly designed for its role by a divine power)
- plagiarized design (a divine power may have created the species "from scratch", but basically stole the credit for a successful design which originated elsewhere)
- migration (a species could move or spread, using any natural/artificial/supernatural/divine mechanism)
- astronomically improbable coincidence (anything is possible, but this seems nearly impossible) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Dec 2012 : 04:31:54
I said the Egyptians came from Toril. Not dinosaurs, though... Toril isn't old enough.
So when Atlantis (and Lemuria) disappeared on Earth, where do you think they went? Did they go to Abeir (the 'cosmic dumping ground') or Toril? Or were they all so evil they went to Ravenloft?
Maybe Alaghi have been using portals networks for years to sneak over to Earth and scare tourists (as Sasquatch). It would explain why no one can find them when they go looking for them (they go home after they eat their fill of blueberries). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Dec 2012 : 02:15:39
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Although "cavemen" and other "prehistoric" proto-humans can be found in the Realms. Not to mention all sorts of "evolved" apes and such which don't exist on our world. From a strict "real world" scientific viewpoint, a diverse ecosystem (ie, bunch of dinosaur species) would probably take at least several aeons to evolve, while the Realms has apparently been around for only a few dozen millennia.
"A wizard did it" or "the Gods willed it" occur so routinely in the Realms that I would be surprised if any species had any chance to evolve "naturally". Since "magic rich" environments (like the Realms) seem to encourage a bewildering (and often improbable) array of species diversity, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that they also accelerate natural evolution and selection mechanisms.
There's no reason to assume that dinosaurs or dragons originated in the Realms, indeed I would suspect that dragons (like elves) probably migrated to Abeir-Toril long ago. I also don't think dinosaurs and dragons need be at all directly related just because they're reptiles - humans and zebras have little in common beyond being mammals.
I find it interesting that so far, everyone that has dinosaurs migrating has done the "they came from earth" idea.... noone's said "and earth got their dinosaurs from Toril". |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Dec 2012 : 23:19:18
Although "cavemen" and other "prehistoric" proto-humans can be found in the Realms. Not to mention all sorts of "evolved" apes and such which don't exist on our world. From a strict "real world" scientific viewpoint, a diverse ecosystem (ie, bunch of dinosaur species) would probably take at least several aeons to evolve, while the Realms has apparently been around for only a few dozen millennia.
"A wizard did it" or "the Gods willed it" occur so routinely in the Realms that I would be surprised if any species had any chance to evolve "naturally". Since "magic rich" environments (like the Realms) seem to encourage a bewildering (and often improbable) array of species diversity, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that they also accelerate natural evolution and selection mechanisms.
There's no reason to assume that dinosaurs or dragons originated in the Realms, indeed I would suspect that dragons (like elves) probably migrated to Abeir-Toril long ago. I also don't think dinosaurs and dragons need be at all directly related just because they're reptiles - humans and zebras have little in common beyond being mammals. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 02 Dec 2012 : 05:24:26
[raises hand] Dire wolves are real wolves. They were the dominant wolf of the ice age. They're not around anymore, thankfully, but they were very much real.
And I take the opposite view. I like to keep the amount of "a wizard did it" to a minimum. If everything is the result of someone meddling somewhere sometime, it takes a bit of the specialness away. Not a huge amount, but still. Dinosaurs are exotic, they're from another time, and they should remain rare and mostly unknown, to preserve that sense of wonder. Just because Eberron brings them into the fold doesn't mean FR needs to (the reverse, of course, is also true). |
| Razz |
Posted - 02 Dec 2012 : 04:01:40
I am very against introducing real world extremely modernized science into the realm of fantasy. Some of it I can deal with or have fun with (like running an Expedition to the Barrier Peaks in a Realms game, for example) but others I don't feel belong.
All theories of evolution, for example, and genetics can go right out the door. I was never a fan of actual physical evolution taking place in D&D. Why would dinosaurs in D&D HAVE to be considered a "Lost in Time" type creature? Are they not as natural to have around as say dire wolves, owlbears, or dragons? Why must they be considered "prehistoric"? Can't they be just the typical run-of-the-mill beast one encounters in exotic locales?
Ubtao is the patron of dinosaurs, is it wrong to just say he is as much their creator, as say, Akadi watching over all winged creatures or Malar being the progenitor of all that is bestial? Maybe there were only herbivore dinosaurs and then Malar magically twisted some to become more bestial (T-Rex, for example). If Eberron introduced dinosaurs as always being a normal part of the world, what's wrong with the Realms doing the same? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 18:10:42
I would say the dinosaurs evolved naturally, and then into other things (Sarrukh, Aeree, and Batrachi), although I think that evolution (in a fantasy/D&D setting) is 'steered' by higher powers. In the case of the Creator Races, I have it where each one was an attempt at creating the 'perfect' race by the Elemental Lords. Humans, being 'The Fifth Element' (life/Wood/Alloy) and a combination of all four elements are 'special' (the Race of Destiny). Fey, on the other hand, are evolved from plants that achieved sentience and managed to create 'avatars' to interact with other races (thats the newest theory I hit upon).
When the 'Elder Gods' (High Ordials/Old Ones/etc) were creating the universe, the first 'great race' (Celestials) they created were the Lung (Celestial Dragons). These are sometimes referred to as 'lesser Ordials' (Primordials) or 'Dawn Titans'. These creatures then created the lesser Titans (Jotuns), the first giants, from the body of Ymir. When Ymir (the embodiment of the physical part of reality) was mortally wounded in the Godswar, his 'blood' turned into the first dwarves (literally, rock given life by the leaking energies of the Dying God). Thus, Dwarves and Giants are closely related (and both can access the 'Eldritch energy' of the Ordials via Runes).
Dwarves first served the giants, but as the giants grew to become more brutal masters, many dwarves rebelled. One of the earliest 'experiments' done on dwarves by giants was to create linnorm - earthly dragons - through an eldritch process involving vast amounts of treasure (amongst other things). The Linnorm were not very good servants, however, and giants attempted to create an improved version by breeding True Dragons (Lung) with Linnorm, and thus the first (D&D/traditional/Western) Dragons were born. The Celestials (Ordials and Lung alike) took offense to this abomination, and punished the giants by driving them from the first (True) World. This is how Giants, Dwarves, and Dragons were spread throughout the Spheres.
This is an over-simplification of my 'Theory of Everything' (version 8.0). I have it where nearly all current D&D species are related to earlier ones, so each race becomes 'Creators' in their own right. I have many more 'layers' of beings and creatures (such as the Tanar - the elemental beings, and the Atezu - Creatures which are normally referred to as 'Celestials' by modern sages). Each Ordial actually created his own group of Celestials (Atezu) to serve him and his Lieutenants, such as the Assura, deva, Archons, Angels, Kami, etc. This is how many later pantheons were formed - certain Tezu became elevated to deity status after the concept of deities came about (something created by the Racial Overmind of the first mortals). For instance, certain elevated Assura became the Aesir. Each of those groups still has to answer to their creator (an ordial who is sometimes referred to as a 'high god' in the pantheon, such as Ptah or Odin).
A bit convoluted, but everything can trace its history back to the very first being in existence... except for aberrations, which were here all along (although many of them have also evolved from earlier prototypes). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 17:13:17
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Well, technically dinosaurs are bird-like creatures. Or at least evolved into birds. Which leads to another really crazy idea: what if they were created by the aeree (or whatever that avian creator race is called) during their war against the dragons? They would have needed something to help combat the dragons on the ground, so why not dinosaurs? Of course, in this scenario it would be all of the nasty carnivorous dinos that were created first, and the herbivores later to feed them.
That's a really good point... Especially since some dinosaurs particularly enjoyed eating eggs. You could have had a couple breeds that specialized in that, to lessen the numbers of future dragons, and other predators to specialize in attacking young dragons. And the flying ones, of course, to take the fight to them in the air... |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 16:28:13
Well, technically dinosaurs are bird-like creatures. Or at least evolved into birds. Which leads to another really crazy idea: what if they were created by the aeree (or whatever that avian creator race is called) during their war against the dragons? They would have needed something to help combat the dragons on the ground, so why not dinosaurs? Of course, in this scenario it would be all of the nasty carnivorous dinos that were created first, and the herbivores later to feed them. |
| daarkknight |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 15:52:35
I would see the sarrukh doing this more than the batrachi for a couple of reasons. First, the sarrukh seem to have dominion over all "lizardy" things, and well, dinosaurs are definitely big lizards. But to me, location would play more into it, with the sarrukh empire of Isstossffifil exiting in what is now Anauroch.
Another idea that has come to me, more of a wild card, crazy idea, is elves. What if the elves captured a younger dragon or two and did magical experiments on them, not necessarily trying to domesticate them, but transform them into guardian-like creatures, before finally creating drake-like creatures? |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 15:15:14
I like the idea of dinosaurs as dragon food stock. We know dragons can eat just about anything, but having the number of them that the Time of Dragons seems to imply, (ie: entire hordes of them) makes the logistics something of a problem. After all, we know they didn't eat everyone else out of existence, and we have evidence of one dragon doing that to an entire race in the present day (that southern dragon that likes to eat goblins... which is why there aren't any in the south).
So the idea that someone would have brought forward these massive plant eaters to form dragon herds is really tempting. The carnivores either came at the same time as a mistake or (and I like this idea more) were introduced later by rivals as a plausibly deniable way of undermining someone else's herds. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 15:06:18
I've placed dinosaurs in the Forgotten Realms as a Food Stock for dragons and/or an accidental introduction via a time portal.
When I first started playing fantasy in the FR, I didn't give it much thought; but now it makes more sense that they may have been copied from our Earth's past by the Sarrukh who brought them to Faerun to use as both food stock and perhaps even "pay off" for dragons. |
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