| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 23 Nov 2012 : 04:10:08
So I just noticed Elturgard having an ETERNAL SUN. I am pretty sure that would not be any better than eternal darkness. Without darkness people can't sleep, people who don't sleep go insane, this would disrupt nature (what happens to nocturnal animals like owls?), and if it is always high noon water would evaporate more quickly, etc. How is this good? It would cause chaos! Or is it magically benign and not actually have the effects of having two suns?
When I read power of Faerun I didn't realize Amaunatar's Eternal Sun was permanent before. I thought it was a temporary miracle or something not something that would last FOREVER.
Also, if this sun was created by priests of Lathander/Amaunatar why is Torm the state religion? (Not that there should be state religions in the realms since it contravenes the nature of religion as explained by the world's creators....)
And how did the eternal sun move from Elversult to its new location far to the west? (The spell plague...?) Or is it a new casting of the epic spell?
(I don't own or have access to a copy of the 4th edition Campaign Setting I saw this on forgotten realms wiki.) |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Quickleaf |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 14:58:28
Resurrecting this thread to talk about Elversult's second sun...
First off, I really appreciate Eric Boyd chiming in this thread to mention this was his idea as an example of high level play, intended for players to find a way to end the spell and go "wow he was a real Karsus", and that further designers took it in new directions.
I'm prepping a campaign based on a githyanki incursion centered on the western Sea of Fallen Stars (Sembia, Cormyr, the Dragon Coast, Turmish), and with Amaunator's Eternal Sun (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Amaunator's_eternal_sun?so=search) above Elversult mentioned in "Power of Faerûn" & "Grand History of the Realms", I decided it was interesting enough to keep and puzzle out my theory/interpretation for.
What if the second sun over Elversult acted as a deterrent to all the cults and criminals that were active in the city, flushing them out of the shadows and into the light of day, but as time goes on the intensity diminishes so that it's "high noon" bright around the city's immediate environs, but outside of the city it's more like Norway with its amber "midnight sun" seeming to blur sunset/sunrise and washing the land in hues of ruddy light. When you're near the edge of the effect, like Teziir or headed south from Suzail, its more like an optical illusion where at sunrise/sunset if you soften your gaze you perceive a blurry second (or even third) image of the sun.
My theory is that the light being evoked by the spell comes from the stars known as Amaunator's Belt; I'm interpreting that as a stand in for three stars akin to our Orion's Belt. However the spell's long-term purpose is not LIGHT (like Daelegoth Orndeir used it for), but TIME-KEEPING (the other part of Amaunator's profile), and actually serves as a countdown to a portal effect connecting these stars and/or the Astral to Faerûn. The magic creates a "false alignment" of these three stars, so that they appear as the sun, but it's not the same heat as The Sun.
We know from "Faiths & Avatars" that Amaunator died and drifted on the Astral Plane for a time: "The truth is that with the loss of nearly all his followers in Netheril after its fall, Amaunator began the long, arduous, and painful process of dying of neglect. After about a millennium, he did not have enough power left to maintain the Keep of the Eternal Sun on Mechanus and was ruthlessly exiled to the Astral Plane. His corpse now drifts with the endless astral tides, awaiting a day when some ambitious spirit may help him regain his once-proud heritage."
What if the githyanki found Amaunator's body before he was revived? Could they have "seeded" the spell into the god's subconscious or somehow created a magical backdoor for them to use the spell in the future? Or even might the githyanki have come to some deal with the lawfully minded dead Amaunator?
And to get even more wild...
We know from "Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves" that there are time gates, the first of which "...lies hidden upon the back of the mountains, where the ice and rocks touch the summer sky of Amaunator's belt." This is commonly interpreted as being a cave in the Spine of the World mountains from which the constellation Amaunator's belt is visible from the mountains in summer.
So what if where the light from Elversult's "second sun" – actually the light of the three stars of Amaunator's Belt – touches a mountain range is where the time gate lies (i.e. the Sunset Mountains, Storm Horns, Troll Mountains, or Giant's Run Mountains). This was a way for Amaunator to fight back against the githyanki tampering with the epic spell without breaking his word (or his oath to Mystra not to interfere in the domain of magic), by providing heroes a way to undo the wrong that had been done. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 22 Jun 2021 : 19:25:19
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
If I remember correctly, didn't Zariel serve Lathander before her fall?
She did, or at least when the folk of Idyllglen prayed to Lathander for aid, Lathander was able to arrange for Zariel to come and aid them. The details of the relationship between the two aren't specified, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lathander had been aiming to recruit her away from Mount Celestia to join him in Eronia.
That sounds very likely. I would not put it past Lathander to poach celestials from other deities, especially in his younger days. Your idea would also resolve a 5E continuity issue, which makes it all the sweeter. I am making your idea as part of my headcanon.  |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 22 Jun 2021 : 14:56:39
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
If I remember correctly, didn't Zariel serve Lathander before her fall?
She did, or at least when the folk of Idyllglen prayed to Lathander for aid, Lathander was able to arrange for Zariel to come and aid them. The details of the relationship between the two aren't specified, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lathander had been aiming to recruit her away from Mount Celestia to join him in Eronia. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 22 Jun 2021 : 13:58:30
If I remember correctly, didn't Zariel serve Lathander before her fall? If so, she could not have come from Mount Celestia, unless angels can somehow be based in realms other than their deities.
I can definitely see pre-fall Zariel serving Lathander since both beings are notoriously activist. After all, Lathander instigated the Dawn Cataclysm. Zariel could probably be credited as the one who instituted/promoted the hellreaver prestige class that was introducedin Fiendish Codex II.
In Mount Celestia, the Triad could have forcibly reined her in. As much as Tyr and company would like to smite fiends, they have no use for mavericks and loose cannons such as Zariel. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 22 Jun 2021 : 02:36:44
-Hey, if I was an angel/spirit/whatever chilling in eternal bliss in the heavens, I'd continue chilling. While it's probably not their intent, I can see "the forces of good" being slow to react for precisely this reason. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 22 Jun 2021 : 01:16:40
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Had this adventure have been written for 4e, even if the gods cannot interfere, they would have recruited the pcs to look for the lost planetar. Even if in the end Zariel activates the Insidiator (we need Elturel in hell for this adventure), the forces of good would at least have tried to stop her, instead of doing nothing about it.
The bolding is mine as a note: “this” doesn’t sound like the published adventure (Descent into Avernus) that you’re describing with a plot of finding a lost planetar, but a prequel to the published adventure where the Companion is used to drag Elturel to Hell, and in this prequel the PCs canonically failed and Hell got away with the kidnapped planetar. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 20:28:58
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I never did a deep dive into the Planescape stuff. Is that a problem with all of it or just the parts dealing with the "evil planes"?
I don't have a problem with the evil planes (besides those utterly dangerous that become unusable in game) or effective evil. Clever villains are good to put a challenge to the players. My problem is with the good planes and the idea that the good guys are utterly useless and dumb.
Planescape is transparent in its intent to show that if not for the Blood War and the forces of evil battling each other, the multiverse would be destroyed because the forces of good are unable to do anything about it. Not because they are outnumbered (that, IIRC, is the case), just because they are utterly stupid and do nothing to save the multiverse. They just chill out in the planes of good. If any agent of good tries to do anything about it, is turned evil because good is not allowed to have intelligent and proactive agents (see Zariel).
I don't like that. I think this is just lazy writing, and I really prefer 4e's take on it: the forces of good are small and may cannot win against the vastly numerous forces of evil, but they are clever and play evil vs evil. They allow the Blood War to happen and orchestrate evil god vs evil god wars so they can buy time to train their own forces, so they will be prepared when Armageddon comes.
Had this adventure have been written for 4e, even if the gods cannot interfere, they would have recruited the pcs to look for the lost planetar. Even if in the end Zariel activates the Insidiator (we need Elturel in hell for this adventure), the forces of good would at least have tried to stop her, instead of doing nothing about it. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 19:40:46
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
That is one of the reasons I don't like Planescape.
I never did a deep dive into the Planescape stuff. Is that a problem with all of it or just the parts dealing with the "evil planes"? |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 18:55:14
That is one of the reasons I don't like Planescape. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 17:30:09
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's plenty of really questionable things in both editions. 4E was more definitive on its info, even if that info was... odd. But 5E's deliberate vagueness means we don't know anything for certain, any more, because the designers won't touch it if they don't have to.
I do prefer definite answers, even if I don't like the answers, over vagueness any day.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Especially for the fact of a missing planetar. Planetars are rather high ranking angels and their absence would not be a trivial affair.
As the Companion came from Avernus originally (forged by Bel), it could have been a planetar kidnapped/captured a decade prior to its forging, a century prior to its forging, or a millennium prior to its forging (or longer). There's no specific way to know or determine when the planetar was captured, only its name (Nascius).
Per Planescape, celestials do interfere in the Blood War, including a rather well-known and lengthy adventure about a deva who hid their celestial-ness inside a demon to rather awkward side effects. And one should also never forget the Maeldur, which if I am recalling correctly was a captured and corrupted solar that the yugoloths turned into a matrix hub allowing demons and devils to teleport without error. If a solar can be snitched by the Forces Of Eternal And Infinite Darkness-Bad-Evil, I don't think that a planetar going missing is going to break any camel backs.
Right. I had forgotten that in D&D, the forces of good are always useless.
I believe the quote you are looking for comes from Lord Helmet: "Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 17:21:39
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's plenty of really questionable things in both editions. 4E was more definitive on its info, even if that info was... odd. But 5E's deliberate vagueness means we don't know anything for certain, any more, because the designers won't touch it if they don't have to.
I do prefer definite answers, even if I don't like the answers, over vagueness any day.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Especially for the fact of a missing planetar. Planetars are rather high ranking angels and their absence would not be a trivial affair.
As the Companion came from Avernus originally (forged by Bel), it could have been a planetar kidnapped/captured a decade prior to its forging, a century prior to its forging, or a millennium prior to its forging (or longer). There's no specific way to know or determine when the planetar was captured, only its name (Nascius).
Per Planescape, celestials do interfere in the Blood War, including a rather well-known and lengthy adventure about a deva who hid their celestial-ness inside a demon to rather awkward side effects. And one should also never forget the Maeldur, which if I am recalling correctly was a captured and corrupted solar that the yugoloths turned into a matrix hub allowing demons and devils to teleport without error. If a solar can be snitched by the Forces Of Eternal And Infinite Darkness-Bad-Evil, I don't think that a planetar going missing is going to break any camel backs.
Right. I had forgotten that in D&D, the forces of good are always useless. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 16:52:55
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Especially for the fact of a missing planetar. Planetars are rather high ranking angels and their absence would not be a trivial affair.
As the Companion came from Avernus originally (forged by Bel), it could have been a planetar kidnapped/captured a decade prior to its forging, a century prior to its forging, or a millennium prior to its forging (or longer). There's no specific way to know or determine when the planetar was captured, only its name (Nascius).
Per Planescape, celestials do interfere in the Blood War, including a rather well-known and lengthy adventure about a deva who hid their celestial-ness inside a demon to rather awkward side effects. And one should also never forget the Maeldur, which if I am recalling correctly was a captured and corrupted solar that the yugoloths turned into a matrix hub allowing demons and devils to teleport without error. If a solar can be snitched by the Forces Of Eternal And Infinite Darkness-Bad-Evil, I don't think that a planetar going missing is going to break any camel backs.
And while I'm perhaps unique in my dislike of the books, I seem to recall the Sojourner doing the something similar in the Erevis Cale books. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 16:21:47
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Especially for the fact of a missing planetar. Planetars are rather high ranking angels and their absence would not be a trivial affair.
As the Companion came from Avernus originally (forged by Bel), it could have been a planetar kidnapped/captured a decade prior to its forging, a century prior to its forging, or a millennium prior to its forging (or longer). There's no specific way to know or determine when the planetar was captured, only its name (Nascius).
Per Planescape, celestials do interfere in the Blood War, including a rather well-known and lengthy adventure about a deva who hid their celestial-ness inside a demon to rather awkward side effects. And one should also never forget the Maeldur, which if I am recalling correctly was a captured and corrupted solar that the yugoloths turned into a matrix hub allowing demons and devils to teleport without error. If a solar can be snitched by the Forces Of Eternal And Infinite Darkness-Bad-Evil, I don't think that a planetar going missing is going to break any camel backs. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 02:48:25
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I find it hard to believe the Creed Resolute would deflect questions on the Companion's origins for as long as it did.
Especially for the fact of a missing planetar. Planetars are rather high ranking angels and their absence would not be a trivial affair.
Also, Kreeg is not the highest ranking Tormish (not Tormite!) priest in Faerun. My understanding is the pontiff in Tantras could order Kreeg to explain himself in exacting detail about the Companion's origins.
Also, how did Kreeg hide his fall from grace? Even with alignment disguising magic, he could not hide his lack of spellcasting.
Welcome to 5e. But 4e was the illogical edition 
There's plenty of really questionable things in both editions. 4E was more definitive on its info, even if that info was... odd. But 5E's deliberate vagueness means we don't know anything for certain, any more, because the designers won't touch it if they don't have to. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 21 Jun 2021 : 01:45:06
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I find it hard to believe the Creed Resolute would deflect questions on the Companion's origins for as long as it did.
Especially for the fact of a missing planetar. Planetars are rather high ranking angels and their absence would not be a trivial affair.
Also, Kreeg is not the highest ranking Tormish (not Tormite!) priest in Faerun. My understanding is the pontiff in Tantras could order Kreeg to explain himself in exacting detail about the Companion's origins.
Also, how did Kreeg hide his fall from grace? Even with alignment disguising magic, he could not hide his lack of spellcasting.
Welcome to 5e. But 4e was the illogical edition |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 20 Jun 2021 : 19:24:25
I find it hard to believe the Creed Resolute would deflect questions on the Companion's origins for as long as it did.
Especially for the fact of a missing planetar. Planetars are rather high ranking angels and their absence would not be a trivial affair.
Also, Kreeg is not the highest ranking Tormish (not Tormite!) priest in Faerun. My understanding is the pontiff in Tantras could order Kreeg to explain himself in exacting detail about the Companion's origins.
Also, how did Kreeg hide his fall from grace? Even with alignment disguising magic, he could not hide his lack of spellcasting. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 02:16:47
-Man, I keep getting confused about the spell and this new demonic item. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 19:48:34
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
I think it's also pertinent to note that the Baldur's Gate 3 video game may give some hints as to a "canonical" outcome of the adventure.
If you happen to consider video games canon, then Zariel got redeemed as shown on Neverwinter.
The Redeemed Citadel!
"Zariel, newly redeemed and free from Asmodeus' bondage seeks to redress the balance of her dark deeds. In pursuit of this goal she would see the Bleeding Citadel restored to its former glory to once again serve as a bastion of angelic strength in the Nine Hells. But not all of Mount Celestia is of like mind in responding to Zariel's overtures. It will be up to mortals like you to assist Zariel and her adherents in the reconstruction!"
Whether I do or not generally depends on the video game, though I fully understand that "canon" FR will differ in that respect from how I see it.
I originally found my way to Forgotten Realms through playing the Baldur's Gate I and II games all the way back in the late 90s and early 00s - and I played them to the point where I had read every book, scroll, item description, and dialogue chain. So when I encountered the Baldur's Gate novel, you can imagine how I was less than impressed, and to this day I much prefer to take the events that happened in the games proper as the actual events, with the varied characters I took through the game all sort of merging together into a replacement for Abdel Adrian in the "canon" Realms.
By contrast, I have very little interest in considering the events of Neverwinter Nights to have happened, even though they did. The vanilla campaign, that is - Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of the Underdark I am a bit more favourable to. I also very much liked Wyvern Crown of Cormyr and Darkness over Daggerford, so they sort of folded themselves into my headcanon as well.
With reference to Baldur's Gate III, the developer (Larian) has said that they picked a particular ending when making the game, at this link here. But whether that will be reflected in "canon" FR going forward, or whether it's different (or not!) from the Neverwinter decision, I think we won't know until BG3 actually releases properly.
Currently in BG3's Early Access, Zariel-blooded tieflings are still a thing, and dialogue indicates she wasn't redeemed in the ending Larian picked. Elturel exiled all the tieflings within its walls after it was lifted out of the Hells, probably owing to the trauma of getting dragged there in the first place. The plight of those refugee tieflings is a big part of the early BG3 plot. They've taken up residence in a Druid Grove, but a large faction of the druids don't want them there any more (and another faction are Shadow Druids). The player's choices will influence heavily how things play out.
Mod edit: Added quotation marks so the URL coding would work.  |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 10:59:54
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
What year does the game take place? You could say that Asmodeus's godhood period re-indoctrinated her.
It's a bit messy, the game was released during 4e era but it tries to be in the 5e era now. The events of the Reedemed Citadel happen after the Descent into Avernus though. Actually Descent into Avernus is shown in the game before that.
Developer Blog: Avernus Campaign
I know all about that 4e/5e mess, I'm running a game in 1487 DR months before Thultanthar falls on Myth Drannor.
Here's a hilarious line from an older Wiki article on the heretical church.
quote:
It was seen as a miracle, and pilgrims came to receive its warmth and witness its holy light at night.[9] But while many believed the second sun was sent by a god, no-one knew for sure which was responsible. For example, some named it "Amaunator's Gift", after the sun god Amaunator.[1][9][2] However, only the High Observer of Elturgard, Thavius Kreeg, knew if this was truly a blessing of Amaunator or of some other power.[1] The Creed Resolute, sworn by the Order of the Companion and the Hellriders, maintained that their members would not attribute the Companion to any one god, so that religious differences would not divide them.[2]
The guy was a crook and I can absolutely believe he would take credit for the Companion- as long as nobody here thinks too hard about the exact day that the companion went up and what our heretical rich boi was doing then. |
| Alexander Clark |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 09:33:23
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
What year does the game take place? You could say that Asmodeus's godhood period re-indoctrinated her.
It's a bit messy, the game was released during 4e era but it tries to be in the 5e era now. The events of the Reedemed Citadel happen after the Descent into Avernus though. Actually Descent into Avernus is shown in the game before that.
Developer Blog: Avernus Campaign
|
| PattPlays |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 09:29:17
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
I think it's also pertinent to note that the Baldur's Gate 3 video game may give some hints as to a "canonical" outcome of the adventure.
If you happen to consider video games canon, then Zariel got redeemed as shown on Neverwinter.
The Redeemed Citadel!
"Zariel, newly redeemed and free from Asmodeus' bondage seeks to redress the balance of her dark deeds. In pursuit of this goal she would see the Bleeding Citadel restored to its former glory to once again serve as a bastion of angelic strength in the Nine Hells. But not all of Mount Celestia is of like mind in responding to Zariel's overtures. It will be up to mortals like you to assist Zariel and her adherents in the reconstruction!"
What year does the game take place? You could say that Asmodeus's godhood period re-indoctrinated her. |
| Alexander Clark |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 09:22:54
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
I think it's also pertinent to note that the Baldur's Gate 3 video game may give some hints as to a "canonical" outcome of the adventure.
If you happen to consider video games canon, then Zariel got redeemed as shown on Neverwinter.
The Redeemed Citadel!
"Zariel, newly redeemed and free from Asmodeus' bondage seeks to redress the balance of her dark deeds. In pursuit of this goal she would see the Bleeding Citadel restored to its former glory to once again serve as a bastion of angelic strength in the Nine Hells. But not all of Mount Celestia is of like mind in responding to Zariel's overtures. It will be up to mortals like you to assist Zariel and her adherents in the reconstruction!" |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 08:24:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Or is that a can of worms that WOTC will never even consider taking seriously with Anaumator just unexceptionably back alongside Lathander in the Second Sundering..
I'd say it's something that will never be touched again. WotC is unwilling to put any effort into lore, these days, and they've been unwilling to explore the lost years of the timejump for a while. Plus, the whole "All* the gods are back!" thing is just a mess.
*Disclaimer: "all" doesn't really mean "all." Don't ask us if a specific deity is included in "all" or if they're actually gods and not avatars or how multiple gods of the same portfolio can exist. Just run with it and don't ask questions. Now go away.
Mhm. My party has been in the wilderness for ages and now they're returning to civilization and, according to lore, "the gods are not answering prayers" even a year after the second sundering- so I'm about to play every priestly NPC as if they have never once heard a real sign from a god. Meanwhile Ghaunadaur still answers prayers because I have lore going on with them in the narrative.
Here's what the realms wiki has written up on the topic nowadays, since creating an article after the campaign released two years back.
quote:
It was seen as a miracle, and pilgrims came to receive its warmth and witness its holy light at night.[9] But while many believed the second sun was sent by a god, no-one knew for sure which was responsible. For example, some named it "Amaunator's Gift", after the sun god Amaunator.[1][9][2] However, only the High Observer of Elturgard, Thavius Kreeg, knew if this was truly a blessing of Amaunator or of some other power.[1] The Creed Resolute, sworn by the Order of the Companion and the Hellriders, maintained that their members would not attribute the Companion to any one god, so that religious differences would not divide them.[2]
Imagine the looks on the heretics faces when Anaumator becomes a real god present alongside and separate from Lathander- and they still don't answer any prayers for two years.
I mean- the important question is how any of the common folk or public-facing priests even learn of this. I mean, how does one know their god has regained power if they don't answer prayers and the common folk hear not of the epic adventures of their Chosen? Do the Chosen come to cities after their journeys and preach gospel of the overlord Ao for days straight to newsbook-publishers and holy scribes?
How does anyone in the path of a traveling party learn anything of Ao's acts and the technicalities of pantheon membership? For player characters' sakes, of course.
Edit: Though I am pleased to hear that the specific epic spell of creating the second sun was designed for inspiring players, and isn't deeply vital to the realms. This retcon seems fine, I don't know if any of my players will ever be within 50 miles of Eltruel, and I get the satisfaction of imagining the Church of Anaumator as helplessly wrong yet un-satisfyingly correct for hundreds of years about literally everything. The acts of some dumb church don't dissuade me from the tripartite mysteries of Anaumator that I found discussed on an ancient scroll here, though. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 05:05:19
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Or is that a can of worms that WOTC will never even consider taking seriously with Anaumator just unexceptionably back alongside Lathander in the Second Sundering..
I'd say it's something that will never be touched again. WotC is unwilling to put any effort into lore, these days, and they've been unwilling to explore the lost years of the timejump for a while. Plus, the whole "All* the gods are back!" thing is just a mess.
*Disclaimer: "all" doesn't really mean "all." Don't ask us if a specific deity is included in "all" or if they're actually gods and not avatars or how multiple gods of the same portfolio can exist. Just run with it and don't ask questions. Now go away. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 03:06:37
Awesome to see the adventure and story digested by such great people here.
Though, does this abandon the Risen Sun Heresy plotline of Daelegoth Orndeir and the 3rd edition Risen Sun Heresy? Or is that a can of worms that WOTC will never even consider taking seriously with Anaumator just unexceptionably back alongside Lathander in the Second Sundering.. |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 23 Apr 2021 : 22:43:07
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Soo... Was Zariel under some curse, or was she just plain dumber than a box of rocks? I don't see any possible way that even someone of average intelligence could believe that a mortal army would have a chance in Avernus. Angels are supposed to be pretty smart, as I recall, and I don't see how even an angel could sell that to any mortals aside from the most zealous of paladins. "Hey, leave your home, go to one of the nastiest places in all of existence, and battle the countless armies there! We'll do great!"
In brief, yes, the mortals were a bunch of very zealous paladins (although in complete fairness there do seem to have been some other celestials as well, it wasn't only Zariel). They did not realise - nor did Zariel - what they were actually getting themselves in for when they decided to try and end the Blood War by smashing into it with their collective faces. Elturel also became, after the event, the righteous nation of Elturgard, a holy realm led by paladins known as "Hellriders" for when they charged into Hell alongside an angel and won victory. Except what actually happened after they got to Hell is the secret shame of the order.
Zariel herself comes off, at least in my own opinion regarding the background of her the adventure provides, as being akin a young, rebellious firebrand. She isn't thousands of years old, or eons-old in the case of certain members of Celestia's Hebdomad (or doesn't feel like she is). She feels very young, with the perhaps foolhardy belief in the pure righteousness of her cause and that because she is Good that Good is invincible. The same feelings that tend to permeate through adolescence. She's rebelling against the older angels who understand that there is a very good reason why they don't try and charge headlong into the Blood War (which is itself just the even older Law vs Chaos war under new management).
She's a Jeanne d'Arc gone wrong.
Try this:
Zariel wanted to get the gods more involved to end the Blood War and remove the necessary evil of Asmodeus, as according to Tome of Foes, she witnessed Asmodeus get off lightly in his Trial before the gods for setting in proverbial stone the allowed arrangement of mortals being tempted to evil without direct intervention from the heavens to stop it all.
By creating martyrs while slaying at least one demon lord through valor, others, countless others could be inspired to brave the Hells and do the same.
Asmodeus however could not pass up the chance to lead his old acquaintance astray and corrupt her path.
Like with many immortal schemes, what's on the surface is not necessarily indicative of the big play and the long game.
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| Eldacar |
Posted - 23 Apr 2021 : 22:09:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Soo... Was Zariel under some curse, or was she just plain dumber than a box of rocks? I don't see any possible way that even someone of average intelligence could believe that a mortal army would have a chance in Avernus. Angels are supposed to be pretty smart, as I recall, and I don't see how even an angel could sell that to any mortals aside from the most zealous of paladins. "Hey, leave your home, go to one of the nastiest places in all of existence, and battle the countless armies there! We'll do great!"
In brief, yes, the mortals were a bunch of very zealous paladins (although in complete fairness there do seem to have been some other celestials as well, it wasn't only Zariel). They did not realise - nor did Zariel - what they were actually getting themselves in for when they decided to try and end the Blood War by smashing into it with their collective faces. Elturel also became, after the event, the righteous nation of Elturgard, a holy realm led by paladins known as "Hellriders" for when they charged into Hell alongside an angel and won victory. Except what actually happened after they got to Hell is the secret shame of the order.
Zariel herself comes off, at least in my own opinion regarding the background of her the adventure provides, as being akin a young, rebellious firebrand. She isn't thousands of years old, or eons-old in the case of certain members of Celestia's Hebdomad (or doesn't feel like she is). She feels very young, with the perhaps foolhardy belief in the pure righteousness of her cause and that because she is Good that Good is invincible. The same feelings that tend to permeate through adolescence. She's rebelling against the older angels who understand that there is a very good reason why they don't try and charge headlong into the Blood War (which is itself just the even older Law vs Chaos war under new management).
She's a Jeanne d'Arc gone wrong. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 23 Apr 2021 : 18:44:52
IIRC, the canonical ending of the adventure is the one from the Infernal Tides comic series:
SPOILERS AHEAD
Minsc and co. saving the city with the help of some devil loyal to Bel and the Bloodrovers.
EDIT:
Zariel was just plain dumb. And the mortals she convinced were indeed an army of zealot paladins. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Apr 2021 : 18:36:53
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
The plot arc, for Zariel (paraphrasing and summarising):
1. Zariel is an angel on Mount Celestia, who thinks Good should get involved in the Blood War. She feels it is the responsibility of the angelic host to destroy evil in the multiverse. She leaves Mount Celestia with her followers, goes to Elturel, and rallies an army of mortal warriors.
2. She takes her army into Avernus... and is absolutely flattened. Her mortal army breaks and flees back through the portal, abandoning her as they seal it behind them and never speak of their "shameful retreat and betrayal of Zariel" again.
Soo... Was Zariel under some curse, or was she just plain dumber than a box of rocks? I don't see any possible way that even someone of average intelligence could believe that a mortal army would have a chance in Avernus. Angels are supposed to be pretty smart, as I recall, and I don't see how even an angel could sell that to any mortals aside from the most zealous of paladins. "Hey, leave your home, go to one of the nastiest places in all of existence, and battle the countless armies there! We'll do great!"
And yeah, I get that most mortals in the Realms aren't exactly planar scholars, but still, the "hey, let's go attack a bunch of fiends that are too busy fighting each other to notice you!" thing is going to be a hard sell. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 23 Apr 2021 : 16:43:50
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
Basically what happened is that the High Overseer made a deal that the city would be forfeit to Zariel, a fallen solar and now the archdevil of Avernus (Bel got demoted). While the Overseer cannot himself trade the souls of others, there was a loophole. Because all the people in Elturel are sworn body and soul to it with a binding oath, when Zariel claimed Elturel she also got to take the people with her.
I can get a fiend wanting a bunch of souls... But why an entire city and its surroundings?
For me, it seems immediately absurd that an ancient evil character only recently fell (as I recall the 50 year time limit was related to the timing of her saving the city? Or perhaps I had the story backwards? I had thought she rode in with her holy mount and chased the fiends into hell. I likely did not read the story as fully as Eldacar did. However, this is just needed for the story that they wanted to tell at WOTC. In a world without Descent Into Avernus, the second sun and the history of Zariel is as we have all assumed for decades. If you're playing in the world of that adventure, though, it is best to imagine the classical Zariel as mythical and legendary and that the truth of the story is as the adventure presents it.
The plot arc, for Zariel (paraphrasing and summarising):
1. Zariel is an angel on Mount Celestia, who thinks Good should get involved in the Blood War. She feels it is the responsibility of the angelic host to destroy evil in the multiverse. She leaves Mount Celestia with her followers, goes to Elturel, and rallies an army of mortal warriors.
2. She takes her army into Avernus... and is absolutely flattened. Her mortal army breaks and flees back through the portal, abandoning her as they seal it behind them and never speak of their "shameful retreat and betrayal of Zariel" again.
3. Zariel is captured and sent to Nessus, where Asmodeus welcomes her with open arms. He gaslights her and then says if she swears fealty to him, she can bring her "righteous rage" to bear against the demons and fight to end the Blood War.
4. She accepts and Falls. Now an archdevil, she does not forget those from Elturel who fled the battlefield and abandoned her, so she kept an eye on the city waiting for a chance to get revenge.
5. 1444 DR, Elturel is conquered by a vampire lord, and a priest of Torm, Thavius Kreeg, appeals to any power who will listen to save the city. Zariel offers, and he accepts.
6. The Companion appears and bathes the city and surroundings in holy light, forcing the vampire lord to flee and annihilating his army of undead spawn. Kreeg is hailed as the saviour of the city.
7. Fifty years later, the time limit is up and Zariel claims Elturel. Because the citizens swear an oath to defend the city body and soul, she also gets all their souls to take with her.
8. Descent Into Avernus takes place.
To cut a long story short, it is revenge for abandoning her. There is the side benefit that she grabs a bunch of mortal souls to fuel the Blood War, of course. But she picked Elturel in the first place for revenge.
(SPOILERS FOR THE REST OF THE ADVENTURE.)
On the rest of the adventure, it does offer a whole pile of options for conclusion based on player agency, ranging from Bel backstabbing Zariel to reclaim his position, the party attempting to redeem Zariel, the party sacrificing their own souls to save Elturel, the city being lifted out of the Hells Superman-style by angels, straight-up trying to kill Zariel (somewhat suicidal as presented), to even convincing Tiamat to break the chains and save the city.
I think it's also pertinent to note that the Baldur's Gate 3 video game may give some hints as to a "canonical" outcome of the adventure. While it doesn't tell us exact events by any stretch, the Early Access version released late last year does have some hints in occasional references and scattered clues. Namely, Elturel seems to have been saved but Zariel was not redeemed.
That being said, the game plot is also not concerned with Descent into Avernus that EAccess has shown, instead being primarily about Illithids, the Netherese, Shadow Magic, and the Dead Three. |
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