| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| FallenCleric |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 00:22:29
Has anyone done anything interesting with languages that involve reducing the usefulness of Common, or removing it altogether? What issues/interesting experiences did you have?
It seems a bit odd, even with the existence of magic, that there should be one common language that everyone on this large continent speaks. It seems to me that, at best, you could manage "How much (for this apple)?" "1 copper", or "Stand here and fight enemies that come". It seems unlikely that you could, say, discuss philosophy or complex tactics/strategy.
Note that I'm NOT saying it shouldn't be in the game. I realise that messing with languages is not to everyone's taste, so Common needs to be there so people can discuss orc slaying with their brethren from across the sea. But I'd personally like to play with the languages a bit, and make regional/racial languages more useful. |
| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| BEAST |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 21:01:31
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Dooryard refers to the area around the house/trailer/building you live in, including the driveway (where your vehicle is parked), that is free of trees/field/puckerbrush*, i.e. the area that is/was cleared of such obstructions. It seems to be a word not used by many people outside of Maine, but I've never left the state so I wouldn't really know.
*puckerbrush typically means any brush not easily identified, but most Mainers use it to mean any type of shrub, brush, etc when talking, i.e. "Didn't see your truck hiding in all the puckerbrush".
See, here (Texas), the front yard is the area in front that is free of driveway. It can have grass, trees, or shrubs, and usually has all three.
Of course, there are some of the redneck persuasion who violate that line of demarcation and deposit their cars into the front yard, anyway. Thus, for them, "front yard" = "driveway"!
And "puckerbrush"? We just call those "bushes". |
| Xnella Moonblade-Thann |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 20:13:50
Dooryard refers to the area around the house/trailer/building you live in, including the driveway (where your vehicle is parked), that is free of trees/field/puckerbrush*, i.e. the area that is/was cleared of such obstructions. It seems to be a word not used by many people outside of Maine, but I've never left the state so I wouldn't really know.
*puckerbrush typically means any brush not easily identified, but most Mainers use it to mean any type of shrub, brush, etc when talking, i.e. "Didn't see your truck hiding in all the puckerbrush". |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 20:10:28
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
However, in many areas of the world, English may be taught...but the English is very different. My own English students in China had a heavy accent...and I myself as a child spoke Appalachian English. I promise you that it isn't the same english!
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
To prove my point, I would gladly speak with folks on the phone, slip back into my Appalachian English and see how it goes! Especially true if I am on the phone with someone from India or China speaking english also!
Hmmm...makes me think of when my mom talked to a lady on the phone about my car being "bumped" in the dooryard by my dad's truck. See, we live in Maine, but the lady (who was an insurance policy adjuster or whatever the heck it is when you call when your vehicle gets hit) lives in Texas. It took almost the entire conversation before the lady understood that up here in Maine, dooryard/front yard/backyard/driveway are all the same term, "dooryard", to most folks up here. We have many different terms that others from outside of the state, or even in the southern part around Portland, won't understand. I don't have my "Maine Dictionary" with me at the moment, but if you want, I can put a few terms up here and give you the definition.
There's a lot of stuff like that in the US, and I'd imagine in other large countries, as well.
I once found a website that did comparisons between different terms for common things, like soda/pop/Coke, or you guys/youse guys/y'all/etc. I wish I could find that one again...
I myself was once bewildered when, shortly after moving to Biloxi, Mississippi from central Alabama, I saw "po' boy" listed on the school lunch menu. I asked a couple of classmates what that was, but they were too busy being incredulous that I didn't know what that was, and never answered. It wasn't until I got into the cafeteria that I saw that a po' boy was a sub. I moved 250 miles and discovered an entirely different word for something I knew by another name. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 19:31:52
Dooryard is a new one on me, though can understand the concept. A yard that is before the door. In some ways perhaps a version of court yard that one enters before they enter the Court.
As to Common, complexity or flavor clearly can be desired for those willing to to that extent of the role play aspect. I myself clearly do prefer Common as a basic language known by most for ease of play. Having to use hand sighs, using invented languages would clearly slow down any role play until a character learns it.
Ed at least has indicated there are some maybe 10, maybe 200 words that most know (Oh could be more of course) however limited and uses basic concepts common to most races, eat, kill, rest, etc. |
| WalkerNinja |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 19:31:20
In my campaigns, I reduce Common to the status of Esperanto--an esoteric language typically reserved for lingua-philes, diplomats, and other globe trotters. |
| Xnella Moonblade-Thann |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 19:02:00
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
However, in many areas of the world, English may be taught...but the English is very different. My own English students in China had a heavy accent...and I myself as a child spoke Appalachian English. I promise you that it isn't the same english!
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
To prove my point, I would gladly speak with folks on the phone, slip back into my Appalachian English and see how it goes! Especially true if I am on the phone with someone from India or China speaking english also!
Hmmm...makes me think of when my mom talked to a lady on the phone about my car being "bumped" in the dooryard by my dad's truck. See, we live in Maine, but the lady (who was an insurance policy adjuster or whatever the heck it is when you call when your vehicle gets hit) lives in Texas. It took almost the entire conversation before the lady understood that up here in Maine, dooryard/front yard/backyard/driveway are all the same term, "dooryard", to most folks up here. We have many different terms that others from outside of the state, or even in the southern part around Portland, won't understand. I don't have my "Maine Dictionary" with me at the moment, but if you want, I can put a few terms up here and give you the definition. |
| Zorro |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 11:36:30
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I like the idea of Common because it reduces complexity.
I dislike the idea of Common because of that very reason (mainly because I dislike simplifying things for the sake of simplifying them). In my Realms, Chondathan is the language with which you have the best chance of being understood anywhere, just like English. When you're in a Chinese village, you may be pretty much out of luck, but in most places you can at least get by. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 07:09:34
As to the lazy way to go around and bare minimum of communications - there are language spells, don't make them obsolete. 
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In Europe I know for a fact that English is at LEAST a second language in many countries, no matter what their native language might be.
However, in many areas of the world, English may be taught...but the English is very different. My own English students in China had a heavy accent...and I myself as a child spoke Appalachian English. I promise you that it isn't the same english!
Yup. There are some differences due to introduced standards, but not that the general trend is anything special.
Once people took an effort to learn Greek (trade empire, then Alexander's conquests), Latin (twice - empire, later fledgling sciences), Arabic (aside of political reasons like the wars with Catholics and a stream of renegades, for certain sciences), "Lingua Franca" (q.v.), Dutch (sea-trade-related), English (sea), German (not much, but still left some serious imprints all around)...
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| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 06:54:00
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Damaran and Tashalan use the same alphabet???
Officially, yup. I have no idea why Tashalan (or Untheric) would use the Dethek alphabet, but it's on page 85 of the 3e FR setting. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 05:07:42
Damaran and Tashalan use the same alphabet??? |
| rjfras |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 01:46:26
you also have to remember that each country in the Realms does not have its "own" language like in Europe... spain - spanish, italy - italian, germany - german, france - french and so on....
Amn, Chondath, Cormyr, the Dalelands, the Dragon Coast, the civilized North, Sembia, the Silver Marches, the Sword Coast, Tethyr, Waterdeep, the Western Heartlands and the Vilhon Reach all speak Chondathan with like Ed said a subset of a local dialect of it.
Damara, the Great Dale, Impiltur, the Moonsea, Narfell, Thesk, Vaasa and the Vast all speak a form of Damaran
Multiple locations speak Tashalan, another handful speak Shaaran and another handful or locations speak Illuskan
Then you have some languages that are spoken in only one or two places.
And even then some of the languages are all based on the same one or two alphabets.
Alzhedo, Chondathan, Common, Durpari, Iluskan and a couple others all use Thorass as their alphabet while Damaran and Tashalan use the same Dethek alphabet. |
| rjfras |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 01:07:51
from Ed:
quote:
Apriol 12, 2007: Hi again, Candlelit scribes. I bring you once more the words of Ed of the Greenwood, this time in response to Jamallo Kreen, who asked: "FRCS indicates that most PCs might learn a lot of languages, depending on their species and home region. But those are PCs. How many languages would an average person in Faerun know? Would "Common" even be common among those living in very rural or xenophobic areas?"
Ed replies:
The average rural person in Faerūn would know the local language of their region or race (and usually a local dialect of that, too, meaning "a subset of words and speech-pattern mannerisms/sayings understood locally but not elsewhere"), and a smattering of Common (or more, depending on how often they come into contact with travelling merchants).
In other words, almost everyone can say "Yes, No, Friend, Foe, Eat, Need, Water, Help, Hurt, Warning, [names of races, from orcs through humans, plus the "big in legend" monsters like skeletons, dragons], now, soon, tomorrow, sunrise, sunset, cold, hot, danger, safe, trap/hazard, too high, too low, let's dicker, weapon, attack."
A rural person living in a village on a steadily-used trade-road would know far more, whereas one living a village farther away from the road might not - - but anyone who regularly traveled from remote steadings and hamlets to market, or to stop over at a tavern, in that village on the trade-road would know at least a "rough working vocabulary" in Common (though stay-at-homes in his/her same household might not).
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| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 00:54:39
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I use Common as trade tongue only. Otherwise, what the heck is the point of speaking the other more cultural languages in the game (like Chondathan, Illuskan, Alzhedo, etc.) if everyone already can speak Common?
Going a step in the same direction...this whole thread has got me to thinking about "locals" not even really knowing more than a few words of Common.
Adventurers are special folks, but the "Common Man" might not even know Common! |
| Razz |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 00:52:26
I use Common as trade tongue only. Otherwise, what the heck is the point of speaking the other more cultural languages in the game (like Chondathan, Illuskan, Alzhedo, etc.) if everyone already can speak Common? |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 22:51:22
1. Not my intent to be argumentative... just disagreeing is all.
2. Just my two coppers obviously.
3. I tend to ramble. Ignore if you like.
quote:
Personally, I think that given multiple races and multiple nations in one area, the existence of a common tongue makes a lot more sense than the absence of it would.
I actually totally agree with this. I know I argued against, it, and I'm about to do so again, but I agree that it makes more sense. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't seem to actually happen that way, so... is there another kind of sense to it? I don't know, and I'm not trying to be a smartass. Just presenting some contrary thought, maybe looking for a bigger picture.
quote:
The real world didn't have as much travel across the continent as the Realms does
I don't see a reason why the Realms would have more cross-continental travel than the real world has had at any point in history. And all of real-world history is relevant because we *still* don't have a common language, even now when thousands of people get on planes every day. Several languages used by large numbers of people, perhaps competing to be a common language, sure, but those languages originated in particular geographic areas containing a powerful population. As opposed to Thorass, which comes from nowhere in particular. It would be really bizarre if English had become a language known around the world with neither military prowess nor huge numbers of speakers to back it up. Thorass is essentially a language without native speakers and without any armies enforcing its use in nations around the world... which is why it works as a sort of lingo used by merchants, but it would make no sense as a full-fledged common language recognized across Faerun.
/tangent
Merchants are merchants, and they're going to travel wherever they can in search of profits, regardless of which world they live in. If someone can point me to where Ed says "a commoner in the Realms travels way more than the average jane/joe in our world does" then I shall stand somewhat corrected, but even that doesn't necessitate a full-fledged common language (meaning more than just a trade tongue).
quote:
the real world doesn't have teleportation and portals to allow instantaneous travel across hundreds or thousands of miles.
True, but how many people have access to portals or teleportation? And nearly 100% of the ones who do have access are adventurers, who are maybe idolized but logically should be feared and distrusted by most commoners. A few (in the context of the overall population, a very small number of) adventurers popping about using magic probably isn't going to make much of a splash on a facet of culture like language. They may easily add a few words to the lexicon, but they're not going to change the grammar or syntax. Humanity isn't going to develop a common language just because a couple of wizards each generation learn to teleport.
quote:
The real world also lacks races like elves and dwarves, which may be geographically scattered, but still using the same language.
The real world does have colonies, though. There are (or at least have been) French- and Dutch- and English-speaking colonies in Africa and South America. If colonies are a bad counterexample for your point, my bad, but it seems to apply. Far-flung places which all speak the same language doesn't have to mean that the lands in-between will start speaking that language, or come up with their own common language, even after hundreds of years of development. And Faerun's longer history isn't relevant, as much as the age of the specific colonies matters... meaning only the last 1400 years or so matter when we're talking about which language is spoken in Cormyr, and many other thrones are much younger than that.
quote:
Its really as simple as this: one language usually dominates a geographic area...for whatever reason.
I think this depends heavily on how big of an area you're talking about, and how many "strong" languages are in the area. I grew up in San Diego, and the dominant language there changes depending on which suburb you're in, and sometimes which block you're walking down. As Markus pointed out, the same can be true even in New York, which theoretically "should" speak English without many exceptions, but he's hearing a lot of Spanish and Italian. In San Diego and Los Angeles it's a whole bunch of different languages, including but definitely not limited to Spanish. When you look at the US as a whole, 82% claim to speak English as a first language (wikipedia) but NYC and the San Diego + Los Angeles areas have bigger populations than a lot of FR nations. Taking into account the lack of immigration laws in most of the Realms, we could be looking at greater diversity in the Realms than we have in our world.
All of that being said...
I agree that a common language makes things easier at the gaming table. I'm just saying that justifying it in any way other than just saying it makes things easier is probably not going to hold much water. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 16:47:18
Its really as simple as this: one language usually dominates a geographic area...for whatever reason.
In Europe I know for a fact that English is at LEAST a second language in many countries, no matter what their native language might be.
However, in many areas of the world, English may be taught...but the English is very different. My own English students in China had a heavy accent...and I myself as a child spoke Appalachian English. I promise you that it isn't the same english!
So we have in the Forgotten Realms. Speakers of Common in Sembia can probably converse at length about just about any topic they would like in Common. However, a Sembian merchant doing business in Calimshan is obviously not going to get the local dialect at first.
To prove my point, I would gladly speak with folks on the phone, slip back into my Appalachian English and see how it goes! Especially true if I am on the phone with someone from India or China speaking english also!
A "Common" language only means to me a common origin for a multitude of dialects. I've made my players limit their conversations in various places of the Forgotten Realms to basic sentences...and only over time have I allowed them to freely speak. I've only done it a couple of times to put the idea in their head of how things work...not really to foul up play. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 16:12:16
I'm under the impression that Thorass is a written form. "Common" seems to be a dialect of planecommon, and it's not that "common" to begin with. There are still Undercommon, Midani, "formal" tongues giants and dragons to talk across species, etc. So, it's only between humans and on Faerun. And even when used as such, it's severely contaminated by local languages and imported words. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 16:05:50
Wooly makes a really good point - with so many sentient, non-humans present, it only makes sense that a 'human tongue' may have arisen.
In fact, Common might been a simplistic language originally created by elves and/or dwarves to communicate with primitive human tribes, and it evolved from there.
In the Americas, I think Spanish is out-stripping English and quickly becoming a type of 'common' language (Spanglish?) I don't know about the rest of the country, but you can't be a contractor around here without knowing a smattering of it. Even our (here in NY) Governor speaks it as a second language.
When I worked in NYC, I worked with electrical contractors who were Puerto Rican, and Italians right-off-the-boat. On the jobsite, they spoke to each other in their own languages, and were able to understand enough of what the other said to get by, so DON'T discount 'Latin' as being quite dead.
My mother speaks Estonian (My grandpma spoke only it, not English), and her and my aunt can understand when Finnish people speak.
All of that is due to civilization, and cultural sprawl. We on Earth have only had civilization for a few thousand years. FR has had some sort of civilization for 35K+ years. I don't think its so much other races learning our 'Common Tongue', as humans taking part in already existing globalization.
EDIT: More on topic - I love worlds with multiple languages and communications problems. To me, that is far more realistic, and I enjoy that sort of thing in novels, and sometimes in movies (the Cantina scene in SW, for example). However, FR is part of D&D, and in D&D (and most TV Scify series), everyone speaking the same language is just simpler, even if its not very realistic. I've always wanted to run a world without 'Common', but I've never done so. I realize the headaches it might cause. I do applaud anyone who does run such a campaign - kudos. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 15:44:43
I like the idea of Common because it reduces complexity. Especially since I run 2e games, and languages were really expensive to buy in 2e. But really, it's a case of what do you want to focus your time and energy on. Do you want to be roleplaying intrigue, or combat, or whatever, or do you want to be spending effort on translating basic speech back and forth?
To me, it's just not worth it. Now, there's certainly ways to do so. A game of court intrigue where you're a bunch of translators and manipulators could be really cool. But for most D&D games, I don't it's really necessary.
The only humans, IMO, that should have a different language are those who are distant, isolated, and culturally distinct. Mulhorand is probably the best example in Faerun. Going further east, obviously the horse barbarians and the various nations of Kara-Tur would have different languages. Maybe long isolated and forgotten islanders way off in the middle of the ocean. But that's about it.
If I really want to add variety I can add a heavy accent to Common that makes it difficult for non-locals to understand (sort of like how many English speakers react to a heavy Scottish accent). But even that is too much work, and distracts from the true fun of the adventure, almost all of the time. |
| FallenCleric |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 13:38:11
The elves and dwarves make sense to me, as they're both longer lived and more traditional than humans. As for the magic, true, but most people aren't zipping around the world in the blink of an eye. Though the thought of a group of powerful wizards teleporting around the Realms in order to maintain linguistic integrity makes me smile.
Are there any good resources for showing easily what human languages can be found where? A shaded map would be ideal, but a list at least would be good. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 11:52:21
The real world didn't have as much travel across the continent as the Realms does, and the real world doesn't have teleportation and portals to allow instantaneous travel across hundreds or thousands of miles.
The real world also lacks races like elves and dwarves, which may be geographically scattered, but still using the same language. |
| PaulBestwick |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 11:39:15
And even when the there was a single empire (Rome) that covered most of it, that language (Latin) fell out of use amongst most people. It was retained by the church, but no longer used by almost anyone else. |
| FallenCleric |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 07:43:55
Exactly, Europe is a perfect example of what I'm getting at. There was nothing like Common there, yet obviously trade and cultural exchange happened. Merchants learned bits and pieces of the land they were visiting, and envoys learned quite a bit. And of course, there were a huge number of cultures crammed into a relatively small space, similiar to what we have with Faerūn.
In some cases, such as England and Egypt, you had rulers who didn't even speak the language of the people they ruled. So I don't think it's far-fetched that Common is not useful for much more than trading. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 04:45:19
Europe has a high concentration of distinct cultures in a relatively small (compared to other continents anyway) space, and while several European languages may be recognized in multiple countries, I don't think there's ever been a common language used there that wasn't first a national language. Unless you count Esperanto, and we're not going to count Esperanto.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 03:38:27
Personally, I think that given multiple races and multiple nations in one area, the existence of a common tongue makes a lot more sense than the absence of it would. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 01:10:23
I was under the impression that common (Thorass/Thorasta) was specifically stated to be a trade language.
I don't have as much experience DMing as others here do, but in my games there are vague limits on what you can communicate using common. My players tend to be friends and their characters are often from the same general region so that they have at least one shared language option. Not that they always use it, but it's an option. I think I ran one game with 6 players, where each character only shared a language with 1 or 2 other characters. We collectively decided that it was going to be more fun if we didn't roleplay out each and every translation, but rather just assumed that as long as they *could* make themselves understood, they would. It turned out that when the group was split up for whatever reason, the characters who shared a language (whose players were often significant others) paired up for whatever the encounter/challenge was, so it worked out without any big problems. I also had one player once who deliberately made sure he *didn't* share a language with anyone, because part of his character concept was being culturally removed from the rest of the group. That was fun, with all the pantomiming and grunting, like some weird mix of charades and pictionary.
If you have a group of players who don't know each other, or who don't make sure their characters share at least one language with someone, then I can see a choice being made between (A) do we just ignore the language issue altogether, or (B) does the language barrier become a sort of subplot in the adventure. Either way, as long as fun is priority number 1, I think it will work out to everyone's satisfaction.
I personally like to have a lot of diversity of language in the campaign, but so far the adventures I've run haven't featured language much because the players haven't shared my peculiar thinking. |
| Euranna |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 00:47:41
We use common as the trade language. Our DM even makes a point that we have accents when we speak common and for some players, depending on their background, might speak a more "pigeon" version of common.
I once played a Wild elf that did not speak common and only spoke elven. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 00:26:06
I did think of making "Common" just a trade language only...however, the Forgotten Realms has so many portals and much more interaction between regions...it only made sense that there would be a Common tongue.
In our own world, various dialects of English are spoken in almost every single country in the world...and our "magic" is technology. |
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