| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 00:20:29
Just curious as to what people think are the less useful schools of Magic. Particularly in novels.
Specializing in Divination let's you only have to ban one other school, but every other specialization requires 2 school drops.
Which are your favorite schools to specialize in? Which are your favorite NPC villain specialists and what do you think hurts them in their banned schools? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 08:47:31
I don't want to kill things, though. I am trying to put my real self into the position of being a wizard. Not the position of being a wizard fighting stuff D: |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 07:58:36
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Superior invisibility is what I quoted there for a reason. Suddenly everyone has an enchanted gem of true seeing/mind blank, etc so I can't attack and stay invisible. Everyone sees through illusions and is immune to mind affecting spells and for some reason, every dungeon was dimensionally locked.
The DM in question made high level Enchantment and illusion spells pretty worthless because he wanted to start big battles all the time and did not want people getting by on misdirection. He wanted action, he wanted it now and he wanted not everyone to survive. Very annoying to players who built social characters or characters built to be support rather than flat out battlemages. The sad part is a lot of DM' are like that.
Once you reach high levels like that, I generally find that most of the interesting stuff happens outside of combat and dungeon-crawling (really, the PCs should outgrow most dungeon crawling by the time they reach levels 10-12 or so, and if there is a dungeon, then it's a big one, Expedition to the Demonweb Pits big). It sounds like the DM is one that would prefer the sort of dungeon crawling that you engage in at lower levels, but adjusted for higher levels. Personally, I never found that to work. Once you cross a certain threshold, I think powerful PCs (12+) should be starting to move in higher circles than your average dungeon crawl.
Dimensional lock can be gotten around, however. Assuming you aren't already astrally projecting yourself from a personal demiplane (which you have designed to best favour you, and personalised demiplanes can be really, really nasty to invaders), which the lock doesn't prevent, you'd want to get somebody with a wish. It can be a magic item (ring of three wishes), spell-like/supernatural (do-able with certain builds/whatever), bound minion with it (e.g. planar bind an efreeti, or negotiate with a solar, or any one of the many possibilities), or whatever.
Mostly for the "transport travelers" clause. It moves you regardless of local conditions, and the dimensional lock is a local condition. For transport purposes, nothing beats a wish. As long as you can afford the XP cost or get around it somehow (SLA, SU, magic item, the Pathfinder variant that gives a 1:5 conversion rate on XP/gp costs, or whatever). |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 16:35:01
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
The best spells don't. All those make this save or suck and die ray's :)
Not to mention the make this save or suck... oh wait that's right, no save allowed rays.
hehe. Ye olde Empowered quickened ray of Enfeeblement |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 16:01:39
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
The best spells don't. All those make this save or suck and die ray's :)
Not to mention the make this save or suck... oh wait that's right, no save allowed rays. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 15:40:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
From a non-power gamer perspective I would want to drop necromancy. Who wants creepy crawly dead things around? I realize the power in game mechanics...but necromancy gross :(
If I were actually a wizard in the realms I think divination would be my favourite thing to do. I like to know what's going on in the world and what's what. Enchantment also appeals to me...because i'm an egomaniac who would love controlling people's minds.
There are some nifty necro spells that have nothing to do with the undead. 
The best spells don't. All those make this save or suck and die ray's :) |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 15:32:50
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
If he suddenly decides all his NPC's have mind Blank items to stop you from "ruining" his planned adventure with enchantments or his NPC's miraculously can see through superior invisibility because of this or that.
Thing is, you can avoid most of the enchantment issues with a 1st level spell (as long as you just don't want to have forced compulsion work - remember, even a mind blank can't stop the bard from using Diplomacy or Bluff on you - that's what Sense Motive ranks are for). You can get around invisibility with a 2nd level spell:
"A cloud of golden particles covers everyone and everything in the area, causing creatures to become blinded and visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades. Any creature covered by the dust takes a -40 penalty on Hide checks."
Glitterdust (or faerie fire if you're a druid/drow), and as a bonus it makes it incredibly hard to hide as well as blinding all your targets. The only invisibility variant it doesn't work on in 3.5e is the Superior Invisibility spell from the Spell Compendium, and that's an 8th level spell that can still be broken by True Seeing.
Superior invisibility is what I quoted there for a reason. Suddenly everyone has an enchanted gem of true seeing/mind blank, etc so I can't attack and stay invisible. Everyone sees through illusions and is immune to mind affecting spells and for some reason, every dungeon was dimensionally locked.
The DM in question made high level Enchantment and illusion spells pretty worthless because he wanted to start big battles all the time and did not want people getting by on misdirection. He wanted action, he wanted it now and he wanted not everyone to survive. Very annoying to players who built social characters or characters built to be support rather than flat out battlemages. The sad part is a lot of DM' are like that.
The other problem we ran into was crossover. We all had to make new characters for each different DM to run their own games because a bunch of us were getting annoyed as hell at how much some DM's were loading characters for bear, using their own characters as NPC's in their own games to give them a bunch of items. Took all the fun out of the game.
Originally we played same and shared characters no matter who was DMing. But a certain DM would just give ridiculous items and funds before the quest was out. I missed one game, came back the next game to DM, wondering where our level 6 Paladin had gotten a +5 sentient Holy Crusader, and how our other Wizard had gotten a staff of the Magi and why the community stash of money in our safehouse suddenly looked like the treasury of Cormyr. They could literally buy anything they wanted.
As DM that game, I purposefully made sure all those items disappeared and that our treasury was robbed. Made him mad, but everyone else understood and agreed we would strip the characters every game if he continued to overload them with stuff they should not have yet. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 15:17:07
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
From a non-power gamer perspective I would want to drop necromancy. Who wants creepy crawly dead things around? I realize the power in game mechanics...but necromancy gross :(
If I were actually a wizard in the realms I think divination would be my favourite thing to do. I like to know what's going on in the world and what's what. Enchantment also appeals to me...because i'm an egomaniac who would love controlling people's minds.
There are some nifty necro spells that have nothing to do with the undead. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 11:35:22
From a non-power gamer perspective I would want to drop necromancy. Who wants creepy crawly dead things around? I realize the power in game mechanics...but necromancy gross :(
If I were actually a wizard in the realms I think divination would be my favourite thing to do. I like to know what's going on in the world and what's what. Enchantment also appeals to me...because i'm an egomaniac who would love controlling people's minds. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 07:51:12
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
If he suddenly decides all his NPC's have mind Blank items to stop you from "ruining" his planned adventure with enchantments or his NPC's miraculously can see through superior invisibility because of this or that.
Thing is, you can avoid most of the enchantment issues with a 1st level spell (as long as you just don't want to have forced compulsion work - remember, even a mind blank can't stop the bard from using Diplomacy or Bluff on you - that's what Sense Motive ranks are for). You can get around invisibility with a 2nd level spell:
"A cloud of golden particles covers everyone and everything in the area, causing creatures to become blinded and visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades. Any creature covered by the dust takes a -40 penalty on Hide checks."
Glitterdust (or faerie fire if you're a druid/drow), and as a bonus it makes it incredibly hard to hide as well as blinding all your targets. The only invisibility variant it doesn't work on in 3.5e is the Superior Invisibility spell from the Spell Compendium, and that's an 8th level spell that can still be broken by True Seeing. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 04:18:44
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In my own games, Illusions and Charms are far more effective.
1e AD&D has strengths in illusions...and Charms work far better (and for far longer!).
2e made many changes to how things work, with Illusionists becoming wizards...and when that happened, Illusions became less inspiring.
With 3.x, Charms were severely cut back on power as well...even the simple Charm Person spell was greatly reduced in power.
HOWEVER, with the advent of the Shadow Adept class...I found new respect for both illusions and charm magic again.
It is hard for me to get rid of any schools...I've always loved Illusions...but from a mechanics viewpoint, Illusions are the least constant in use if you don't have a DM willing to use his imagination too.
Both schools can be quite aggravating with the wrong DM. particularly those Dm's who planned a story he was dead set on having you follow without imagination or improvisation.
If he suddenly decides all his NPC's have mind Blank items to stop you from "ruining" his planned adventure with enchantments or his NPC's miraculously can see through superior invisibility because of this or that.
We had to force one of the guys who rotates DMing with 6 other people to make character sheets for all NPC's down to the guards because he kept trying to rig things to follow a predetermined plan his way. He was not imaginative enough to realize he could get to the same spot if he just improvised and was very hard headed about it when we started restricting his DMing. If it was not all swords and explosions, he was not happy and would try to make everyone not happy by forcing the issue.
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 03:49:30
In my own games, Illusions and Charms are far more effective.
1e AD&D has strengths in illusions...and Charms work far better (and for far longer!).
2e made many changes to how things work, with Illusionists becoming wizards...and when that happened, Illusions became less inspiring.
With 3.x, Charms were severely cut back on power as well...even the simple Charm Person spell was greatly reduced in power.
HOWEVER, with the advent of the Shadow Adept class...I found new respect for both illusions and charm magic again.
It is hard for me to get rid of any schools...I've always loved Illusions...but from a mechanics viewpoint, Illusions are the least constant in use if you don't have a DM willing to use his imagination too. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 03:34:16
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
All I can say is that Illusions work FAR better in novels than they do in games.
Agreed, same thing for charm spells, which never miss in novels.
Double agreed. Which is why I tend to drop those schools |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 17:48:46
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
All I can say is that Illusions work FAR better in novels than they do in games.
Agreed, same thing for charm spells, which never miss in novels. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 17:34:56
All I can say is that Illusions work FAR better in novels than they do in games. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 17:07:45
This is kind of why I had another thread a couple weeks back discussing alternate methods of "prohibited schools". In second edition, the schools weren't as well balanced. I'll give it to the 3E people they did a good job of making all the schools useful.... which makes it almost impossible to choose. Then throw in that the red wizard has to pick a 3rd school.
Note that in 2nd edition (Spellbound) red wizards didn't choose a 3rd opposition school. There was also in 2nd editions wizards & rogues of the realms that Thayans could actually double specialize, but still no 3rd opp school. This made things interesting, because the red wizards didn't always report up the same chain of command. What they did have was less resistance themselves against their opp schools (i.e. saves against those schools sucked more). The improvement of the spell lists made this change in 3E that much worse.... but at least they got all this spell power that made their save DC's in their chosen school amazing... until spell power was nerfed in 3.5 to only affect caster levels and not save DC's. Granted, you can use heighten and the circle magic to address the save DC's, but then that can get crazy as well. Personally, I think the prestige class needs rework.
I basically had to totally rethink one of my main characters (Sleyvas). He had never really used enchantment/charm at all, so I switched him to diviner from invoker and instead of him being a red wizard, he became essentially what he was before... a gish (or battlemage/spellsword/eldritch knight kind of character for those unfamiliar with the term), but from Thay. I didn't use him much in 3rd edition though (he was more a background influence). I would normally drop conjuration, but they stuck all the travel spells there as well as making it the "no spell resistance" school. If I had a good character, I'd do necromancy instead of enchantment.... but it would suck... or go generalist.
|
| Eldacar |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 16:30:27
One of Enchantment's biggest problems is that there are two spells that almost completely shut the entire school down. The first is Mind Blank. This wouldn't be so bad, since it's an 8th level spell (but really, one spell killing an entire school is just plain nasty no matter what way you look at it). However, the other spell is Protection from Evil/Chaos/Good/Law (and the associated magic circle variant).
"Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect."
Ding. There goes one of the big benefits of enchantment - getting the other guy to be on your side. No mental control for you. Or charm/compulsion, or magic jar/trap the soul. And that's a 1st level spell. It works out better to just let the Bard use the Diplomacy skill (hitting a DC 50 in a single round isn't hard to do) or Bluff skill (Glibness, a 3rd level bard spell, gives you a stunning +30 boost to Bluff) to just talk them down. It saves you wasting time with enchantment spells.
Evocation is the other bad school. Anything it does can be duplicated by Illusion via shadow spells (including Contingency) or Conjuration (orb spell line for direct damage or summoned creatures with the necessary SLAs), really. It's sad, because making the bad things explode into fiery, chunky salsa explosions (that are on fire... and explode into more flaming fireballs that rain down and make more fiery explosions... that are on fire) should be much more fun than it is. It's definitely more interesting to read in novels than the mage summoning a monster and standing back while said monster does everything. Direct attacks against the other guy sound - to me - more fun.
Past that, it becomes trickier to guess what school to drop, but Divination can never be dropped, and Conjuration (followed closely by Transmutation) is the best school. Mechanically, anyway. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 12:50:45
The one thing about Enchantment I hate dropping......
Sleep.
one of the Best low level spells ever |
| Crai |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 19:26:35
Multiple castings of Fireball within a given "mass enemy" encounter are typically an exercise in suboptimal tactics. Haste + 2nd Level Web is more often going to give a Core-4 party way more tactical options as well as focused damage dealing tradeoff benefits.
The only effect that Fireball has is to attrit HP ... and that it does not do well (or reliably) at all when taking into consideration the non-linear and near-quadratic level increase of 3.5 monster HP as CR levels rise. Spells whose only claim to fame are HP Attrition will continuely lose out to comparable-level spells that give party benefits in action economy tradeoffs, battlefield control and other double or triple threat utility uses. Treantmonk and Logic Ninja's spell evaluation threads are readily googleable for people who want to see comparative valuations with Fireball. The continued fascination of Fireball in 3.5 was due to a number of factors. In 2E, Fireball was a highly-recommended and optimized spell that finished encounters. Plus, it's one of the more commonly dramaticized spells in the novels. Which grabbed the eyeballs of many new players who wanted a familiar spell to be assigned to their newly minted arcanist. By 2005 or so, you finally saw a vast majority of tournament and RPGA players shying away from Fireball when they realized that casting the spell was not helping end encounters and often times contributed to early deaths of party members.
You are right though, Evocation is not useless. It's utility spells are terrific! But they too, can be simulated through Shadow Evocation spells ... especially when using disbelief shenanigans to purposefully fail saves and acknowledge the evoked manifestation as *real*. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 18:38:23
quote:
Originally posted by Crai
Even at lower levels, spells such as Haste and the various Illusion/Figment spells are capable of providing more effective strategic combat performance (for an average all the way up to an optimized Core-4 party) than Fireball. There are statistical models on a number of forums that show how Haste at 5th level and onward will completely outperform Fireball in aggreagte party damage output. Plus Haste has the benefit of being more useful in a dynamically-fluid, geometrically-challenged battlespace. In addition, it empowers the wizard's teammates and makes for a more collaboration-friendly combat experience.
And we've all seen numerous examples of how the lowly Silent and Minor Image spells (when used in a savvy and reasonable fashion) can significantly benefit damage-trading comparisons and cause enemy combatants to:
1. Waste countless attacks on the figment and not on the good guys (while the party continues their attack).
2. Be subject to divide-&-conquer tactics by the party.
3. Be subject to tactical disorientation and lack of group focus.
If you have only one level 3 spell to cast, you are right. However, the difference is that multiple casting of Haste have no effect, while fireball does. Haste is a great spell, and definitely better than fireball, I'm just saying evocation spells are not completely useless. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 16:52:17
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Yeah, a Wizard after level 11-12 was not even looking to deal damage for the most part. It was make your saving throw or die/be crippled/ No save spells that ruin you.
But spells that have a single target are of very limited use in dungeon situation. The same could be said against very powerful single enemies that almost always succeed any saving throws (dragons, powerful fiends).
Disintegrate for example, sure it can be Heighten/maximized/quickened true striked/whatever for a 1-hit kill, but that is 1 target for one spell. Evocation seems more useful against hordes of minions, if one is more interested in dealing damage than controlling the battlefield.
I just don't think evocation is as useless as many optimizing boards seem to suggest. In the end, it mainly depends on the DM. Even enchantment/illusion can be powerful in heavily story-based adventures.
And again, I do not usually judge a class/school/build for what it can unleash at 15+ level, I'm more interested in the 5-15 range, which is 95% of my campaigns.
In situations like that, I generally took spells that helped me alter the battlefield so my party could win with all the buff I put on them. So I guess we just have different types of fun :p
Personally, I would never bar Evocation simply because I rely on Contingency too much. Enchantment and illusion are my 2 usual quick bans. Enchantment always is the weakest school for me, mostly because it is useless in more situations than any other school.
I love disintegrate simply for its utility in killing, or clearing a wall for me.
When it comes down to it, depending on your DM, you can often have some spells in a ring of spell storing(Or talisman, or staff) of the schools you don"t have |
| Crai |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 16:10:47
Even at lower levels, spells such as Haste and the various Illusion/Figment spells are capable of providing more effective strategic combat performance (for an average all the way up to an optimized Core-4 party) than Fireball. There are statistical models on a number of forums that show how Haste at 5th level and onward will completely outperform Fireball in aggreagte party damage output. Plus Haste has the benefit of being more useful in a dynamically-fluid, geometrically-challenged battlespace. In addition, it empowers the wizard's teammates and makes for a more collaboration-friendly combat experience.
And we've all seen numerous examples of how the lowly Silent and Minor Image spells (when used in a savvy and reasonable fashion) can significantly benefit damage-trading comparisons and cause enemy combatants to:
1. Waste countless attacks on the figment and not on the good guys (while the party continues their attack).
2. Be subject to divide-&-conquer tactics by the party.
3. Be subject to tactical disorientation and lack of group focus.
|
| Kilvan |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 15:59:24
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Yeah, a Wizard after level 11-12 was not even looking to deal damage for the most part. It was make your saving throw or die/be crippled/ No save spells that ruin you.
But spells that have a single target are of very limited use in dungeon situation. The same could be said against very powerful single enemies that almost always succeed any saving throws (dragons, powerful fiends).
Disintegrate for example, sure it can be Heighten/maximized/quickened true striked/whatever for a 1-hit kill, but that is 1 target for one spell. Evocation seems more useful against hordes of minions, if one is more interested in dealing damage than controlling the battlefield.
I just don't think evocation is as useless as many optimizing boards seem to suggest. In the end, it mainly depends on the DM. Even enchantment/illusion can be powerful in heavily story-based adventures.
And again, I do not usually judge a class/school/build for what it can unleash at 15+ level, I'm more interested in the 5-15 range, which is 95% of my campaigns.
|
| Firestorm |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 15:33:51
quote:
Originally posted by Crai
The epitome of 3.5 Wizard buildcraft and practical optimization pretty much had Evocation and Enchantment as the bottom-dwellers of high-output performance and combinatorial utility.
3.5's emphasis on a collaborative storytelling group of a "Core 4" party meant that the Fighter, Rogue and Cleric archetypes would be the heavy damage-dealers ... and the Arcanist archetype would be the toolbox solution combatant. Meaning *dealing damage* was extremely low on the arcanist's priority ladder. Using access to the wide variety of spells located in the 3.5 sourcebooks meant that the rarely-seen (from an optimization perspective) damage-dealing focused specialist wizard could ban Evocation and never miss it even one iota. There are spells from the other schools that rival Evocation's damage output without blinking an eye (granted, some require optimization of PrC class abilities to do so). Although the loss of Evocation's utility spells (Contingency, etc.) are an issue for many high-level wizards.
Playing in a number of extremely difficult sanctioned D&D tournaments, you'll get a first hand view of how top-tier players emphasize optimized spellcasting. Evocation spells are rarely seen in such tournaments as specialized wizards are not looking to be damage-dealers. They're there to control battlefield optimization, buff/debuff and boost friendly actions while wasting enemy actions.
Banning Enchantment for many middle and high level specialists are a no-brainer. There are a wide array of Illusion, Transmutation and Divination spells that simulate or duplicate many of Enchantment's core schticks (like Charm Person/Monster, Suggestion, and other Mind-Affecting/Compulsion spells). In fact, one of my most effective and powerful characters was a Diviner with the Enchantment school banned ... that was essentially being played as an Enchanter and that's how he marketed/presented himself. It was funny. And he was extremely effective for 11 levels of play.
Freezing Glance (Frostburn) is probably Enchantment's best, non-duplicatable spell. Everything else in Enchantment is open to alternate-school duplication. Again, using access to all of WotC's wide array of 3.5 sourcebooks for expanded spellcasting options ... this significantly helped minimize the importance of certain schools (evocation, enchantment) and maximize the importance of others (conjuration, illusion, transmutation, etc.).
Yeah, a Wizard after level 11-12 was not even looking to deal damage for the most part. It was make your saving throw or die/be crippled/ No save spells that ruin you. |
| Crai |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 15:19:04
The epitome of 3.5 Wizard buildcraft and practical optimization pretty much had Evocation and Enchantment as the bottom-dwellers of high-output performance and combinatorial utility.
3.5's emphasis on a collaborative storytelling group of a "Core 4" party meant that the Fighter, Rogue and Cleric archetypes would be the heavy damage-dealers ... and the Arcanist archetype would be the toolbox solution combatant. Meaning *dealing damage* was extremely low on the arcanist's priority ladder. Using access to the wide variety of spells located in the 3.5 sourcebooks meant that the rarely-seen (from an optimization perspective) damage-dealing focused specialist wizard could ban Evocation and never miss it even one iota. There are spells from the other schools that rival Evocation's damage output without blinking an eye (granted, some require optimization of PrC class abilities to do so). Although the loss of Evocation's utility spells (Contingency, etc.) are an issue for many high-level wizards.
Playing in a number of extremely difficult sanctioned D&D tournaments, you'll get a first hand view of how top-tier players emphasize optimized spellcasting. Evocation spells are rarely seen in such tournaments as specialized wizards are not looking to be damage-dealers. They're there to control battlefield optimization, buff/debuff and boost friendly actions while wasting enemy actions.
Banning Enchantment for many middle and high level specialists are a no-brainer. There are a wide array of Illusion, Transmutation and Divination spells that simulate or duplicate many of Enchantment's core schticks (like Charm Person/Monster, Suggestion, and other Mind-Affecting/Compulsion spells). In fact, one of my most effective and powerful characters was a Diviner with the Enchantment school banned ... that was essentially being played as an Enchanter and that's how he marketed/presented himself. It was funny. And he was extremely effective for 11 levels of play.
Freezing Glance (Frostburn) is probably Enchantment's best, non-duplicatable spell. Everything else in Enchantment is open to alternate-school duplication. Again, using access to all of WotC's wide array of 3.5 sourcebooks for expanded spellcasting options ... this significantly helped minimize the importance of certain schools (evocation, enchantment) and maximize the importance of others (conjuration, illusion, transmutation, etc.). |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 15:17:11
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Area damage spells are still subject to SR and a saving throws. I'd say Conjuration area spells are strictly better for controlling the area. Grease, Web, Solid Fog, Black Tenticles, Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust, Cloud Kill, Wall of Iron can all be used offensively PLUS they have versatility and utiliy as well. I'll take grease, stinking cloud, and web over Fireball any day.
Sure, if you want to control an area, evoc is useless. If you want to blow it up, conjuration won't help you. I prefer spells that do not allow a save each round, just as any dragon can roll a 1, any thug can roll a 20.
Why blow it up when you can cast obedient avalanche |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 11:42:41
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Area damage spells are still subject to SR and a saving throws. I'd say Conjuration area spells are strictly better for controlling the area. Grease, Web, Solid Fog, Black Tenticles, Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust, Cloud Kill, Wall of Iron can all be used offensively PLUS they have versatility and utiliy as well. I'll take grease, stinking cloud, and web over Fireball any day.
Sure, if you want to control an area, evoc is useless. If you want to blow it up, conjuration won't help you. I prefer spells that do not allow a save each round, just as any dragon can roll a 1, any thug can roll a 20. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 11:38:42
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Fireball is like the worst spell still around. Nobody ever takes it anymore in our games. We can spot a novice player the instant he uses a spell slot for Fireball.
My level 3 slots are usually full of transmutations. Buffing my Fighter/Rogue teammate with haste often does a heck of a lot more good than a fireball ever does for. So do most Conjurations of that level. heck, ill take a good old transmute spell "dragon breath" over Fireball. You can choose a line or cone breath and alter it from fire, to cold, to electricity if you see the situation calls for it.
If you are in a snowy area, you can choose icelance for great danage.
"When in doubt, fireball!" As been my motto for more than a decade now, and few things in gaming are as satisfactory as the peak damage granted by this spell at 10th level, compared to any other class. Sure it is not optimal, but damn it's fun.
SR has never been such a big deal in my 3.5 campaigns, Spell penetration feats pretty much take care of it. With the exception of occasional Golems and Rakshasas, wizards do not miss their spells nearly as often as a fighter would miss his strikes (though to be fair, he doesn't run out of sword swings). And if you allow Assay spell resistance, then SR is completely useless. If you play low-mid level, this is even less of an issue. Sure evoc spell are subject to saves, but strong REF saves are rare for monsters and classes.
I'm sure you can play an above-decent wizard without evoc, but it would be boring for me. And if you want high-damage with no saving throws allowed, then combust and scorching rays with metamagics are for you. With Archmage or an energy altering feat, you don't have to worry about fire being resisted so much at higher levels.
And I just realized that I kept saying Abj instead of Conj for orb spell, my bad. But yeah, they are crazy good. Big fan of the orb of force, almost guaranteed damage. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 02:44:47
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Agreed. I think most people who aren't Evokers (or want the ability to deal Xd6 direct damage) should drop Evocation because there really is little outside of those spells in versatilty. You can get just as many (if not better) Xd6 damage spells from Conjuration and many of them aren't subject to Spell Resistance.
Sure, but no school is nowhere near Evoc for area damage, at every level. Orb spells are amazing (which I believe are the spells you were referring to), but sub-optimal against crowds. Abj deals almost no damage until 4th level, and not so much after that. I think its still the best school, but not for damage.
Area damage spells are still subject to SR and a saving throws. I'd say Conjuration area spells are strictly better for controlling the area. Grease, Web, Solid Fog, Black Tenticles, Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust, Cloud Kill, Wall of Iron can all be used offensively PLUS they have versatility and utiliy as well. I'll take grease, stinking cloud, and web over Fireball any day.
Then you add in things like Reserve Feats (featured from Complete Mage) and suddenly your fueling Acidic Splatter, Fiery Burst, and Storm Bolt feats for at-will damage from useful Orb spells. And of course, you can't forget Conjuration's TRUE power: Summon Monster X spells. The right feats and suddenly your conjured monsters are filling areas with sickening smoke and are beefed up on Strength and Constitution right from the get-go.
Fireball is like the worst spell still around. Nobody ever takes it anymore in our games. We can spot a novice player the instant he uses a spell slot for Fireball.
My level 3 slots are usually full of transmutations. Buffing my Fighter/Rogue teammate with haste often does a heck of a lot more good than a fireball ever does for. So do most Conjurations of that level. heck, ill take a good old transmute spell "dragon breath" over Fireball. You can choose a line or cone breath and alter it from fire, to cold, to electricity if you see the situation calls for it.
If you are in a snowy area, you can choose icelance for great danage. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 02:17:47
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I agree that Enchantment is the weakest school, but not so much necromancy. Necromancy has several very worthwhile spells and some of the better epic spells you see are necromancy :P
I do not take into consideration high level spells, much less so epic spells. Spells in the 3-5 range, and maybe 6, are those that really matter in my campaigns. For example, I wouldn't keep necro just to keep Horrid Wilting.
But I do realize that Necro is a strong school, but just not my style. I hate ability/level damage, both as a player and as a DM. It's just a pain to keep track of, I stay away from it as much as possible.
Well, the 3.5 we have been playing have had many of the same characters for years. We are well into our level 19-21 characters, except for the sad saps who died early and had to start over with penalties or late joiners who we let start at level 12. Our DM makes us lose 2 levels per resurrect. But I tend to see spells of all levels. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 02:08:20
I kinda look at it from a few different angles when gaming. From low level, to mid level, to high level. The extra spell per level of your specialization class can be wicked good.
As someone else said, most schools of magic have the ability to be dropped with decent substitution spells. There are a few spells however, I think are irreplaceable or at least, are terrific enough that dropping the school hurts a bit.
Divination:
At the highest levels, Divination seems lacking. Divination with a whole two level 9 spells. But foresight is a darn powerful spell(never be surprised again). I don't think I have ever taken hindsight for my extra spell slot. If your gamemaster let's you craft spells, I suppose you could do more. The kicker with divination is you only have to drop one school, so it makes it a powerful school to master.
Greater prying eye always useful. Greater Arcane sight(Let's you see exact wards/Spells), greater scrying.
In the middle levels, Probe thought is excellent. Detect Scrying can be useful as heck. Lower levels, your party loves you since you find the Targets, items and safe paths.
Transmutation:
Always has been my favorite school. Most of my allies love me because of this school. Who doesn't love a party member who can increase their strength, speed, and give them all sorts of boosts? Everyone loves polymorph and disintegrate. At the highest level, it has some ridiculous good spells. Time stop being the game saver. Undermaster? Alamanther's Return! Dragonshape! Frostfell. Investiture of the Pit Fiend!
Abjuration:
I would never drop this school simply because as a Wizard, I need all the protection I can get at all levels. Shields, stoneskins. Also, because I like being able to counter other wizards and dispel wards.
Necromancy:
Hmmm. I have a love Hate thing with this school. I love Enervating ray, Energy drain, ray of enfeeblement, Ray of exhaustion, etc. Just buggers most fighters who are trying to get me and makes them easier meat. Ensul's Soultheft(Who needs a cleric?)
It also seems like a lot of crazy spells are Necromancy. Manshoon's clone spell was a first to come to mind, but a lot of others. Unname just erases a person from existence. Wail of the banchee.
On the other hand, it has a lot of spells I find useless and I would prefer to conjure a creature than raise it from the dead.
Evocation:
Love a lot of the spells here. Contingency has saved my character more times than I can count and is almost a necessity. Love the prismatic spray/Deluge spells. Deadly sunstroke. Wall of force. A metamagic/empowered/repeated scorching ray
Conjuration:
Oh yeah. One of my faves. Sphere of ultimate destruction! All teleport spells(You need them). Being able to summon Monsters is always good at any level. Grease and Glitterdust dominate the low levels. once you have a single level 9 Spell slot....Hellish Horde makes life easy for awhile. Your teammates will love you if you enchant an item with Refuge for them. I am the kind of jerk who extorts money or items from people for casting that spell on something for them, on top of the 1500 gems required. The orb spells. orb of force is my favorite love level Damage spell ever. A wizard with a few rogue levels and metamagic can just wreck people better than a rogue can since there is no saving throw.
Illusion:
Admittedly, I drop this school on occasion when I need to drop 2 schools. I hate losing invisibility, but overall I prefer real spells to illusions. Shadow Evocation is nice granted. Too often in my games did people mysteriously have great rolls and see through my illusions. I guess my old DM is a bit to blame. The one spell I absolutely love is simulacrum. At one point, we were going to a dreadful dungeon that was Dimensionally locked for teleporting, with a few reckless players who only occasionally played and I secretly conferred with the DM to send a Simulacrum, but not tell the other players they had a dupe instead of the real me, and communicated with my Shadow via sendings and Divinations the whole quest. Good thing I did too because they got wiped and used my dupe as a sacrifice. It was great when the one guy who survived got out and used my refuge to teleport after he passed the lock, and he was badly beat up, only to find me there with most of my spells still ready haha. I cast cloudkill and blinked out killing him.
Enchantment:
Has some great spells, but I tend to drop this school first. At high levels it has some nice stuff, but I find this school very droppable. I can live without power word kill and dominate Monster. |
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