| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icelander |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 23:17:48
In official supplements, I've found the titles of Zulkir, Tharchion, Autharch and Khazark.
The lowest of these, Autharch/Khazark, still describes an individual fairly high up in the chain-of-command or civil administration. An Autharch is the Lord Mayor of a decent-sized city, the Lord Commander of the garrison of a metropolis or the Master of a powerful guild. Granted, the actual power and authority of individual autharchs varies enormously, given Thay's byzantine politics. All the same, an Autharch is clearly of sufficient rank so that he has plenty of subordinates.
Do any of the novels set in Thay give titles that would be appropriate for such subordinates? What would the people holding the equivalent positions of 'VP of Marketing' and 'VP of Personnel' have as their titles in the Guild of Foreign Trade? They're under the direct authority of Autharch Samas Kul, so it would sound silly to give them the same title, but they're people of enormous importance and power nonetheless.
Thay also has hereditary nobility, distinct from the acquired aristocracy of appointed officials and/or Red Wizards*. Are there any official titles for these nobles? I know that many novels would use the Common equivalents, i.e. those familiar to readers, but Ed has previously given us local titles for Chessenta and the Vast, so clearly they exist in a lot of places. I'd imagine that the titles mostly originated from those in use in Mulhorand, but some deliberate variation might be expected.
*Though noble birth, wealth and connections are assets for advancement in either career path. |
| 24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Sep 2016 : 14:33:04
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
Interesting. In what book was the term "aulkir" first introduced? I have none of those books, so I'm curious. And what was the definition of the Aulkir? A junior subordinate to the Zulkir? Or something else?
Actually, Aulkir is a term I introduced to the game in 2nd edition. Its a term used for an alternative school of arcane magic for which the government recognizes that it has enough people studying it that they should have some kind of representation. There were several aulkirs in 2nd edition (though honestly I can't name them anymore, but I know there was some kind of shadow magic users, elementalists, and wu jen). In third edition, this included sorcerers, dread necromancers, wu jen, anima mages (i.e. binder/wizards), a school for rogue types (beguilers, arcane tricksters, daggerspell mages, etc..), and a school for warrior mages (warmages, eldritch knights, spellswords, Raumathari battlemages, etc...).
From a governmental standpoint, in my version of Thay, the council of aulkirs came into play only whenever the eight Zulkirs came to a tie in a vote and for which a tie breaker must be found. Then the Aulkir's effectively voted to make a single tie breaker vote. As a result, many Zulkirs basically adopted certain Aulkirs to take under their wing (i.e. illusionists and enchanters aided the school for rogues, evokers supported the wu jen, conjurers supported the anima mages, necromancers the dread necromancers) while some Aulkirs stood alone without a lot of support because they weren't cohesive (i.e. sorcerers, warrior mages, etc...) |
| KismetRose |
Posted - 05 Sep 2016 : 23:37:36
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Great work Kismet, it feels natural and most fitting for the place. I really like your take on Thay - keep going :-)
Thank you for reading it and taking a moment to share your reaction! I am definitely going to keep adding to the blog, not only because these are things I've wanted to know/do for years but because it's been a lot of fun to write in this format!  |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 04 Sep 2016 : 23:01:48
quote:
Originally posted by KismetRose
I finally finished my post on the ranks of the Red Wizards in order to better define them for my own purposes. I'm hoping others might be able to use some of what I've done, if only as jumping-off points. I didn't get into all of the other major titles in Thay, but that might get covered in a future post.
Great work Kismet, it feels natural and most fitting for the place. I really like your take on Thay - keep going :-) |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 04 Sep 2016 : 14:41:29
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just realized this! The Thayan government is ruled by Thayans... That makes it a Thayocracy. 
Isn't it more of a Lichocracy?
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| moonbeast |
Posted - 04 Sep 2016 : 14:40:36
Interesting. In what book was the term "aulkir" first introduced? I have none of those books, so I'm curious. And what was the definition of the Aulkir? A junior subordinate to the Zulkir? Or something else?
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| KismetRose |
Posted - 04 Sep 2016 : 01:58:30
I finally finished my post on the ranks of the Red Wizards in order to better define them for my own purposes. I'm hoping others might be able to use some of what I've done, if only as jumping-off points. I didn't get into all of the other major titles in Thay, but that might get covered in a future post. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 14:00:12
For me, I'd probably just separate the Authark and Khazark titles, and give 'Khazark to the officials under the Authark (who would appear just as powerful to most folk, since the only person they would answer to was the Authark, and one would assume the Authark would rarely bother to intervene in anything his/her lieutenants did).
If I were to make up titles for other officials, I would keep the 'ark' suffix going. For instance, the commander of an army might be known as a Swordark, and a judge might be a Justicark.
Maybe Swordtharc.... {we need a 'scratching head' smiley}
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 05:26:03
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
My impression was that, as of Thay-4E, the only titles available were Zulkir and Zombie, and Zulkir was already taken.
 |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 04:23:40
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
My impression was that, as of Thay-4E, the only titles available were Zulkir and Zombie, and Zulkir was already taken.
Utterly irrelevant to me, as my campaign is set in DR 1373. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 03:31:44
My impression was that, as of Thay-4E, the only titles available were Zulkir and Zombie, and Zulkir was already taken. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 03:10:51
Unfortunately, Sightless never did get those titles up here...
If he sees this, I'm still interested in learning about his take. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 11:59:02
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
And unfortunately, the file is corrupted, but I've still got my tapes. I humbly beg your endulgence while I retype everything. I'm working on it now, and shall have it up ASAP. My apologies.
No problems at all. Thank you for the kindness and hard work. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 03:57:32
And unfortunately, the file is corrupted, but I've still got my tapes. I humbly beg your endulgence while I retype everything. I'm working on it now, and shall have it up ASAP. My apologies. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 08:17:59
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
As it hopens I have position titles for senior level beucrates, low ranking ones, court officials, and the magical chapter houses. All are based on Persion and Alteranize, a middle eastern dialect, as that is what the titles in "Dreams of the Red Wizards" are based on. Unfortunately, I'm not at home, but I shall track it down and post it either tonight or tomorrow. From this DMs can take what they like and wont they don't
If you do take anything, I'll be incredibly flattered.
Marvellous. I look forward to seeing them. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 18:34:25
As it hopens I have position titles for senior level beucrates, low ranking ones, court officials, and the magical chapter houses. All are based on Persion and Alteranize, a middle eastern dialect, as that is what the titles in "Dreams of the Red Wizards" are based on. Unfortunately, I'm not at home, but I shall track it down and post it either tonight or tomorrow. From this DMs can take what they like and wont they don't
If you do take anything, I'll be incredibly flattered. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 16:46:36
Oh, and on the bureaucrats having titles thing and all the intrigues involved, you can do all that without knowing their titles. Hell, I have a lot of intrigues in my personal life (which is filled with bureaucracy) and I can't tell you the title of most of the individuals that I work with. What becomes important isn't their personal title, but rather the department name they work in. Being known as "from audit" bears a lot more weight on certain things, whereas if you want something else done being "on the change control team" bears a different kind of weight, whereas being "part of the peer review council" has its own issues. Hell, I can't even tell you what my own job title is, so I just call myself a "Senior Network Security Engineer". |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 16:37:50
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
For a little while in one of my campaigns, I actually had sub-schools of the orders of magic involved, but their loyalty was ultimately to one of the Zulkirs. It was back during 2nd edition, but as an example, warmages might have an Aulkir that worked with the school of invocation, whereas dread necromancers might have an Aulkir that reported to the school of necromancy, etc....
Sounds reasonable enough. Surely the mighty Zulkirs don't personally micromanage every aspect of their schools. They must have underlings among the Red Wizards of their orders, if only to pass orders to lesser wizards and to keep track of the paperwork.
From one to four Aulkirs per Order sounds plausible, given that each Order counts about one hundred Red Wizards, each with his own Circle of apprentices and journeymen (or a Legion, if he's the martial type and/or dislikes working with other mages).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I never really got into titles for the sub-personnel in the government structure itself though.
Pshaw!
Everyone knows that Dread Bureaucrats are the stuff of which adventures are made!
For example, Aznar Thrul is no great admirer of the Guild of Foreign Trade, which is a problem as the Guild controls the enclaves abroad and even at home in Bezantur, they are leasing most of the docks and warehouses. Nevertheless, Zulkir and Tharchion Thrul very much wants to sell large quantities of evocation items on the black market, for example to the struggling rump government of Free Unther. And he does not want to have to cut any employee of the Guild of Foreign Trade, let alone the sybaritic Autharch Samas Kul, into even a fraction of his profits.
How does he go about that? Easy.
The outlander merchants who are filling Autharch Kul's pockets with a steady stream of gold in exchange for grain and any magical items that the enclaves may legally sell have an outpost in Bezantur. There is no enclave there, obviously, but they are dealing directly with senior officials of the Guild, buying everything they can and arranging for transport over the Alamber Sea to Messemprar.
All the Tharchion of Bezantur has to do is have one of his lackeys, preferably one in some unexciting-sounding, but ambigious post, call the principal deal-maker among the outlanders to him, with some excuse of government regulatory nature.
Once the merchant is there, have said bureaucrat offer him terms on any evocation magic he may fancy. For that matter, stockpiled weapons from Priador armouries are hardly needed with the downsizing in Thay's legions these days. For that matter, if there is anything that he wants to buy, even if the Guild of Foreign Trade could supply it as well, Aznar Thrul might well be willing to have his lackey undercut the Guild's rates. After all, the Guild enriches all the Zulkirs (and its own personnel), while a personal agent of the Tharchion of Bezantur needs only a little cut for himself and all the rest can go directly into Thrul's coffers.
If this ever comes to light and in the unlikely event Samas Kul, a mere autharch, can muster enough political support to publicly accuse a Zulkir of anything, Aznar Thrul can always throw the civil servant to the wolves, claiming he acted without his consent or knowledge.
Thus, enter Synarch Rasuhl Agneh, the Master of Public Health and Safety in Bezantur. This scion of a humbled house is a middle-aged wizard whose magical gifts are insufficient to ensure his acceptance among the Red Wizards without considerably more wealth and political patronage than his family can afford in their reduced circumstances.
Rasuhl is a slender, compact man with a pinched, myopic look upon his face. He likes to establish an invariable routine in all aspects of his life and handles surprises poorly. While he is competent at familiar tasks, he lacks a gift for improvisation or creativity. This alone might have kept him from the ranks of the Red Wizards even if his wordly situation were much better, but Rasuhl is not aware of his own limitations, prefering to think of himself as sensible and organised.
He nominally answers to Autarch Ithrash and is responsible for the upkeep of the sewer system, removal of trash, administration of building codes, response to disasters, etc. In fact, most such work is done by his very capable second, Yposynarch Apset Nathayara, and Bezantur's chief building inspector, Protobezir Yuldra Ulmet, leaving Synarch Agneh free to carry out various tasks for the Tharchion himself.
Yeah, the aulkir thing in 3rd edition might work better in that many Thayan wizards probably wouldn't become "red wizards". I preferred to go back to an old term for these "non-red wizard" wizards in Thay. They would be referred to as bloodcowls, and they'd have no "official" control in the government. Those who actually have tattoo focus would be required to perform in magical circles as dictated by their school's schedules.
Note, if you do this, I recommend breaking out what are all these alternate groups of arcane spellcasters from the get go (or at least a large portion of them). Also make the decision of whether these "alternate schools" need to be definite non-wizards (i.e. warmages, wu-jen, sorcerors, dread necromancers, tome of battle practicitioners, binders, shadowmages, warlocks, beguilers, etc..), or whether there are "guilds" for group types of spellcasters that may include wizards as well. For instance, a "battlemage" guild that includes warmages, duskblades, but also wizards who are eldritch knights, spellswords, and Raumathari Battlemages. The reason why this becomes important is that those wizards may be specialized in a school that is not the school to which the group's Aulkir is aligned (which shouldn't be a problem in theory, as they're bloodcowl's not red wizards). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 05:44:19
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
For a little while in one of my campaigns, I actually had sub-schools of the orders of magic involved, but their loyalty was ultimately to one of the Zulkirs. It was back during 2nd edition, but as an example, warmages might have an Aulkir that worked with the school of invocation, whereas dread necromancers might have an Aulkir that reported to the school of necromancy, etc....
Sounds reasonable enough. Surely the mighty Zulkirs don't personally micromanage every aspect of their schools. They must have underlings among the Red Wizards of their orders, if only to pass orders to lesser wizards and to keep track of the paperwork.
From one to four Aulkirs per Order sounds plausible, given that each Order counts about one hundred Red Wizards, each with his own Circle of apprentices and journeymen (or a Legion, if he's the martial type and/or dislikes working with other mages).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I never really got into titles for the sub-personnel in the government structure itself though.
Pshaw!
Everyone knows that Dread Bureaucrats are the stuff of which adventures are made!
For example, Aznar Thrul is no great admirer of the Guild of Foreign Trade, which is a problem as the Guild controls the enclaves abroad and even at home in Bezantur, they are leasing most of the docks and warehouses. Nevertheless, Zulkir and Tharchion Thrul very much wants to sell large quantities of evocation items on the black market, for example to the struggling rump government of Free Unther. And he does not want to have to cut any employee of the Guild of Foreign Trade, let alone the sybaritic Autharch Samas Kul, into even a fraction of his profits.
How does he go about that? Easy.
The outlander merchants who are filling Autharch Kul's pockets with a steady stream of gold in exchange for grain and any magical items that the enclaves may legally sell have an outpost in Bezantur. There is no enclave there, obviously, but they are dealing directly with senior officials of the Guild, buying everything they can and arranging for transport over the Alamber Sea to Messemprar.
All the Tharchion of Bezantur has to do is have one of his lackeys, preferably one in some unexciting-sounding, but ambigious post, call the principal deal-maker among the outlanders to him, with some excuse of government regulatory nature.
Once the merchant is there, have said bureaucrat offer him terms on any evocation magic he may fancy. For that matter, stockpiled weapons from Priador armouries are hardly needed with the downsizing in Thay's legions these days. For that matter, if there is anything that he wants to buy, even if the Guild of Foreign Trade could supply it as well, Aznar Thrul might well be willing to have his lackey undercut the Guild's rates. After all, the Guild enriches all the Zulkirs (and its own personnel), while a personal agent of the Tharchion of Bezantur needs only a little cut for himself and all the rest can go directly into Thrul's coffers.
If this ever comes to light and in the unlikely event Samas Kul, a mere autharch, can muster enough political support to publicly accuse a Zulkir of anything, Aznar Thrul can always throw the civil servant to the wolves, claiming he acted without his consent or knowledge.
Thus, enter Synarch Rasuhl Agneh, the Master of Public Health and Safety in Bezantur. This scion of a humbled house is a middle-aged wizard whose magical gifts are insufficient to ensure his acceptance among the Red Wizards without considerably more wealth and political patronage than his family can afford in their reduced circumstances.
Rasuhl is a slender, compact man with a pinched, myopic look upon his face. He likes to establish an invariable routine in all aspects of his life and handles surprises poorly. While he is competent at familiar tasks, he lacks a gift for improvisation or creativity. This alone might have kept him from the ranks of the Red Wizards even if his wordly situation were much better, but Rasuhl is not aware of his own limitations, prefering to think of himself as sensible and organised.
He nominally answers to Autarch Ithrash and is responsible for the upkeep of the sewer system, removal of trash, administration of building codes, response to disasters, etc. In fact, most such work is done by his very capable second, Yposynarch Apset Nathayara, and Bezantur's chief building inspector, Protobezir Yuldra Ulmet, leaving Synarch Agneh free to carry out various tasks for the Tharchion himself. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 03:57:31
We already know that the elite bodyguards of Red Wizards are considered knights because of the infamous PrC. How about for officers the Thayan word for First Sword (for example something like the Byzantine Proto-Spatharios), Second Sword (Di-Spatharios), etc. to signify ranks.
Master of Public Safety would mean a commander of a citywatch like force and/or the head judge, so Kephir/Preatorian or Magister/Alkir/Eparch might fit here.
For navy one could use Nautarch as a captain; Alkammaron for a leader of a unit of Alkammar ships, with First Alkammaron as the Admiral of the fleet.
The civil and guild clerks might be called anything, from Templar (ala Darksun), to your own suggestions, to for example:
Somnarch (Treasurer),
Etnarch (Foreign affairs),
Bezir (governing constructionwork),
Holorar (Granery accounts and Food distriburion)
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 01:46:27
For a little while in one of my campaigns, I actually had sub-schools of the orders of magic involved, but their loyalty was ultimately to one of the Zulkirs. It was back during 2nd edition, but as an example, warmages might have an Aulkir that worked with the school of invocation, whereas dread necromancers might have an Aulkir that reported to the school of necromancy, etc.... I never really got into titles for the sub-personnel in the government structure itself though. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 08:01:29
If such titles do not exist, a DM must presumably invent his own.
Do scribes have suggestions for senior bureaucrats?
Could one call a lieutenant to an Autarch, his assistant and presumable successor, a Hyposautharch?
What about, for example, a Master of Public Safety in Bezantur? Not a second to the top dog, but a master of a department under an Autarch?
Actually, I'm not sure how many Autharch Bezantur ought to hold in the first place. There's an Autarch Itrash who's the commander of the legion of Priados and the City Guard in Bezantur, but I'm not sure whether all city administration would answer to him or directly to the Tharchion. Perhaps there's an Autharch of civil administration in Bezantur.
In any case, I'd want there to be department chiefs for various matters in Bezantur. Responsible for sewage, public works, keeping the streets clear of debris, etc.
Any of the following sound like a title that could work?
Kesarch? (too close to Khazark?)
Sekretark?
Civarch?
Metrarch?
Grammarch?
Yporarch?
Synarch?
What about the higher-ups in the Guild of Foreign Trade?
Chrysark?
Tamarch?
Logarch? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 05:56:16
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I understand Thayan nobles are called Daeron/Daeroness. That's something like a generic title for a nobleman/noblewoman in Thay, and I'm not sure if they have nobility ranks. I can't remember where I took this information from, so perhaps someone else can help.
Dreams of the Red Wizards, I seem to recall. It literally means 'noble-born', so it's a generic form of address for anyone without an actual title. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 03:35:24
I understand Thayan nobles are called Daeron/Daeroness. That's something like a generic title for a nobleman/noblewoman in Thay, and I'm not sure if they have nobility ranks. I can't remember where I took this information from, so perhaps someone else can help.
No idea about the lesser government officials. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 03:15:19
I just realized this! The Thayan government is ruled by Thayans... That makes it a Thayocracy. |
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