| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 04:20:08
I bought the 4e sourcebook The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea, and I have to admit I was baffled by their description of Arvandor. Since coming to this site, I have realized just how little I know about the Realms *sad face* but one of my favorite things about the Realms is the elves, so I am hungry for any lore on them. In The Plane Above it described the Lattice of Heaven, and I think this big godswar that changed the appearance of the Astral Sea. Because of this event, the afterlife in places such as Arvandor “isn’t forever”, and some souls are exalted and some are known as outsiders, but both can die, and are in fact put in danger. Corellon and Sehanine became universal deities as opposed to just fey, and their roles are different. They want the souls in their realm to experience danger and go on these Great Hunts, because they believe love is more powerful if there is the possibility you can lose it. I mean, yes, it is, but this is the –afterlife. I died once, I don’t want to do it again and not exist anymore! Some exalted can be resurrected, but only a certain number of times. Sheverash and Fenmarel also made their home here, which I found amusing because formally, at least to my knowledge, those two deities were Realms exclusive. So…apparently you can die in the afterlife in Arvandor according to this sourcebook.
This went against all my former knowledge of Arvandor. I have not read all the FR books out there (I know, sad right?), but the ones I have read that deals with elves such as Evermeet, The Last Mythal, Lady Penitent (particularly the end), etc, Arvandor sounds like a great place where the afterlife is eternal. You don’t have to worry about soul-eaters nabbing you (that’s the Abyss), and Corellon and Sehanine are elven deities, though I’m sure it is possible for other races to worship them. FRCG 3e and even 4e support this idea of the afterlife, not the one mentioned in The Plane Above. Granted, the CG only briefly described the afterlife, and most souls start out in the Fogue Plane and then are selected by respective gods. I did read that sometimes fiends will come up and try and trick them, but once they are claimed by their god, they go to his/her realm.
This was a core D&D book, not FR, but I was wondering why it was so vastly different. Races of the Wild, also listed Corellon as an elven deity, not a universal one, and I’m pretty sure it doesn’t say anything about the fact you could die again in Arvandor. Personally, I much prefer the one described in the novels than in PA.
Did anyone else notice this? Thoughts, enlightenments?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 24 Oct 2012 : 05:06:13
In 4e core Corellon is unaligned, which is a catch all for the neutral alignments. In the realms he's "good", which is a combination of neutral and chaotic good.
But yea, contradictory stories are the back bone of deities. They call it myth for a reason. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 22:56:05
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
That's an interesting way of looking at it. While I still have mixed feelings about them being brothers (seems like a lot of new lore to me), I like how--at least IMO--this makes the "blame" mroe even, and they were acting on their nature: law vs chaos.
Well, I don't think Corellon represents "law"--it's more like chaos vs. chaos as prompted by chaos.
And I'm not proposing or promoting this as the way the gods should be--it's just an alternate take on them that happens to appeal to me, and it is how I handle them at my own D&D table.
As mortals, there's really no way to know the full truth of the matter. Who's going to tell the story? Corellon? Gruumsh? Lolth? Which of them has the most credibility? The story reflects exceedingly poorly on all of them (except perhaps Lolth, as her priestesses can be proud their spider queen pulled the wool over the eyes of two stupid male deities), and would only damage their religious followings.
When it comes to game design, I am generally of the "this is what people say" camp, rather than the "this is what the encyclopedia says." I am comfortable with that level of ambiguity, which I believe aids DMs who want to contradict it without feeling like they're "doing it wrong."
When it comes to novels, this is one of those things that should probably never be actually explained in anything like encyclopedic detail. Conflicting stories are fine, and even writing holy books that claim to have all the answers are fine, but we shouldn't demand universal truth from deities whose very existence defies mortal understanding.
Cheers
True, Corellon is technically a CG anyway, or at least he has been. I'd have to go look at my copy of FRCG to see if he is still that or if it's changed to "Unalgined". I know that happened to some of the deities.
I thin I'm starting to understand your point now. All the stories will probably have some truths (and some lies?), in them. And then maybe in putting them all together, we'd get the really story, but neither elves, orcs, or drow are going to want to do that. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 21:01:49
I have felt for a long time that Law and Lawful is a bit of a misnomer in the alignment system, and that they should rename it Order. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 20:40:50
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
That's an interesting way of looking at it. While I still have mixed feelings about them being brothers (seems like a lot of new lore to me), I like how--at least IMO--this makes the "blame" mroe even, and they were acting on their nature: law vs chaos.
Well, I don't think Corellon represents "law"--it's more like chaos vs. chaos as prompted by chaos.
And I'm not proposing or promoting this as the way the gods should be--it's just an alternate take on them that happens to appeal to me, and it is how I handle them at my own D&D table.
As mortals, there's really no way to know the full truth of the matter. Who's going to tell the story? Corellon? Gruumsh? Lolth? Which of them has the most credibility? The story reflects exceedingly poorly on all of them (except perhaps Lolth, as her priestesses can be proud their spider queen pulled the wool over the eyes of two stupid male deities), and would only damage their religious followings.
When it comes to game design, I am generally of the "this is what people say" camp, rather than the "this is what the encyclopedia says." I am comfortable with that level of ambiguity, which I believe aids DMs who want to contradict it without feeling like they're "doing it wrong."
When it comes to novels, this is one of those things that should probably never be actually explained in anything like encyclopedic detail. Conflicting stories are fine, and even writing holy books that claim to have all the answers are fine, but we shouldn't demand universal truth from deities whose very existence defies mortal understanding.
Cheers |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 19:20:58
There's nothing wrong with new lore. When you're talking about beings that are literally hundreds of thousands of years old at the least, it's impossible to ever have the full story- you'd die of old age long before you were done reading. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 19:06:40
That's an interesting way of looking at it. While I still have mixed feelings about them being brothers (seems like a lot of new lore to me), I like how--at least IMO--this makes the "blame" mroe even, and they were acting on their nature: law vs chaos. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 18:29:33
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Erik, while we're at it, did you also write the side bar "Corellon, Gruumsh, and Lolth" that appears in the section on Arvandor in The Plane Above?
I believe so, though I also seem to recall that particular piece of lore was heavily edited from my original intention. It's been a couple years, and I don't regularly refer to that book (seeing as it's not a Realms book).
Gotcha.
That particular side bar was a bit of a hot button with me. On one hand it's one of the earlier 4e implications that Gruumsh and Corellon had a connection and were possibly brothers, and I found the implication that Lolth's turn to evil was partly inspired by her having an affair with Gruumsh before the Dawn War.
On the other hand, I found the one line about Gruumsh having never severely injured Corellon in battle to be *beyond* annoying, which is one of the reasons why I so enjoyed the later Dragon Magazine article about the two.
To offer a little "behind the screen" insight into my personal version of Corellon/Gruumsh, here we go.
I picture the two as belonging to the Seelie court, both being beautiful and powerful but very different: Corellon was noble and honorable, while Gruumsh (who originally had a different name) was ruthless and would win at any cost. By definition, they were "brothers," in the sense that they were of the same family of fey entities.
Neither was "good" and neither was "evil"--those standards of morality don't exist for the Fey, and it's only been after their interaction with non-fey races that they've taken on a moral dimension. What we had was "law" and "chaos," and the Seelie court generally represented "chaos" as opposed to the more lawful mechanisms of the universe. But definitely there was a difference between the two, and it made them first an excellent partnership and ultimately tragic, eternal foes.
They were rivals for the affections of a beautiful lady fey named Araushnee, who was drawn to both of them. Araushnee was a flighty, treacherous creature--not evil, necessarily, but chaotic in the extreme. She played the two against each other, but ultimately she refused to choose, leading them to duel for her. This epic duel ended up in the mythology of the elves and of the orcs, as it led to the creation of their races.
Araushnee stuck with the victor (as she always does), and the losing brother was expelled from the land of Faerie to become the entity we call Gruumsh, a founding member of the Unseelie Court. He has hated Corellon ever since (the feeling being mutual), in part because of their contradictory natures (each being the opposite mirror of the other) and also over the oldest reason in the book: the love of a dangerous woman.
It's a little Once and Future Kingish Arthur vs. Lancelot re: Guineviere (though Gwen's considerably darker in this story), but you get the idea.
Cheers |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 17:35:35
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Erik, while we're at it, did you also write the side bar "Corellon, Gruumsh, and Lolth" that appears in the section on Arvandor in The Plane Above?
I believe so, though I also seem to recall that particular piece of lore was heavily edited from my original intention. It's been a couple years, and I don't regularly refer to that book (seeing as it's not a Realms book).
Cheers
Gotcha.
That particular side bar was a bit of a hot button with me. On one hand it's one of the earlier 4e implications that Gruumsh and Corellon had a connection and were possibly brothers, and I found the implication that Lolth's turn to evil was partly inspired by her having an affair with Gruumsh before the Dawn War.
On the other hand, I found the one line about Gruumsh having never severely injured Corellon in battle to be *beyond* annoying, which is one of the reasons why I so enjoyed the later Dragon Magazine article about the two. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 15:34:06
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Erik, while we're at it, did you also write the side bar "Corellon, Gruumsh, and Lolth" that appears in the section on Arvandor in The Plane Above?
I believe so, though I also seem to recall that particular piece of lore was heavily edited from my original intention. It's been a couple years, and I don't regularly refer to that book (seeing as it's not a Realms book).
Cheers |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 05:49:58
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Anyway, I think I'll stop posting on this thread. I'm just going to stick with what I know about the Arvandor of the Realms (and I have looked up some things, and of course the novels, so while there are gaps in my knowledge, I am not entirely ignorant on the subject. It's why I noticed the contradiction in the first place), so I'm just going to assume Core Arvandor and FR Arvandor are different (since people seem to suggest they are), and Erik said the Arvandor described in the Plane Above was influenced by his love of the Realms, but from my understanding now not the same thing. I kind of regret starting this thread. I did not know Erik wrote it and I've probably already offended him enough, which I did not mean to do (the last thing I want is to offend the authors!). I'm just going to assume my beloved Arvandor is the same it's always been. Please read this, but don't bother responding because I'm going to unsubscribe to this thread.
How dare you. (j/k!) 
This is a great and very valid question, and yes, ultimately, we arrive at kind of a contradiction. The Arvandor in the Plane Above book isn't meant to be taken as "the Arvandor" of any particular setting. But I was influenced by my love of the Realms, and I think what I created was an Arvandaor that could be transposed from the Plane Above book into the Realms, with a few tweaks to fit your own personal vision. Or not, as you choose.
The cosmology has never been the focus of the Realms. The novels rarely explore it, and the game products tread very lightly in it. We have a lot of hearsay about how the multiverse works within the context of the Realms, but a lot of it is gray area. The Realms is the Realms, and you should use whatever cosmology fits your vision.
Cheers
Woot, go me, broke my own post XD I forgot to unsubscribe, so I was alerted when someone posted, and naturally, I just HAD to see  You knew this would happen, didn't you? I just can't stay away. I can't blame you for being influenced by the Realms. Goodness knows, I'm writing a novel, and it has elves in it (since elves aren't a Realms exclusive race), but I've been soooo tempted to put drow in it, but I can't *sad face*.
I can see your point that it's all hearsay, I'm just basing what I know from the novels I've read, and while only a few actually give you a "glimpse" of Arvandor (Evermeet and LP--particularly the ending scene in LP, when Cavatina is in Arvandor and the angels welcome her and yeah...) In the Last Mythal too, when Fflar is remembering his time in Arvandor. I just got the impression it was a "forever" sort of place. Some of the stories in Anthology of the Elves alluded to it, too, if I remember correctly. L like the idea when a loved one dies, it was a comfort to the living to know they were in Arvandor (gives me comfort when an elven character dies too, but I'm a sap and get attached to characters SO easily).
I was happy that you included Shevarash and Fenmarel, though. I'm a sucker for Shevarash, which is ironic considering I like drow and he is like, the ultimate hater of them. Members of the Seldarine like Fenmarel and Shevarash, and Erevan, don't get enough attention, IMO. I'd love to see more stories about their followers.
@Quale: I'm okay with a soul merging with a god, but that's because I don't view it as a soul "ending". One could argue against that, but that's my take. And if a god dies, well...their whole realm kind of does, unless another deity snags it (like Corellon did with Eilistraee's), or that god shares his realm with more than one deity. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 00:35:43
Erik, while we're at it, did you also write the side bar "Corellon, Gruumsh, and Lolth" that appears in the section on Arvandor in The Plane Above? |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 00:17:26
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Anyway, I think I'll stop posting on this thread. I'm just going to stick with what I know about the Arvandor of the Realms (and I have looked up some things, and of course the novels, so while there are gaps in my knowledge, I am not entirely ignorant on the subject. It's why I noticed the contradiction in the first place), so I'm just going to assume Core Arvandor and FR Arvandor are different (since people seem to suggest they are), and Erik said the Arvandor described in the Plane Above was influenced by his love of the Realms, but from my understanding now not the same thing. I kind of regret starting this thread. I did not know Erik wrote it and I've probably already offended him enough, which I did not mean to do (the last thing I want is to offend the authors!). I'm just going to assume my beloved Arvandor is the same it's always been. Please read this, but don't bother responding because I'm going to unsubscribe to this thread.
How dare you. (j/k!)
This is a great and very valid question, and yes, ultimately, we arrive at kind of a contradiction. The Arvandor in the Plane Above book isn't meant to be taken as "the Arvandor" of any particular setting. But I was influenced by my love of the Realms, and I think what I created was an Arvandaor that could be transposed from the Plane Above book into the Realms, with a few tweaks to fit your own personal vision. Or not, as you choose.
The cosmology has never been the focus of the Realms. The novels rarely explore it, and the game products tread very lightly in it. We have a lot of hearsay about how the multiverse works within the context of the Realms, but a lot of it is gray area. The Realms is the Realms, and you should use whatever cosmology fits your vision.
Cheers |
| Quale |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 16:06:08
The idea of eternal afterlife (if I remember) comes from the Complete Book of Elves, it's a place called Arvanaith, not Arvandor. That doesn't
fit with any other planar canon. Souls eventually merge with layers, planes, and gods, and they can be destroyed. Arvanaith could be a place within Arvandor where elven souls don't merge with the Seldarine, but keep their individuality. The afterlife in D&D is not final, there are stages beyond it, possibly what the Athar call the Great Unknown, or Dustmen True Death. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 05:42:11
Anyway, I think I'll stop posting on this thread. I'm just going to stick with what I know about the Arvandor of the Realms (and I have looked up some things, and of course the novels, so while there are gaps in my knowledge, I am not entirely ignorant on the subject. It's why I noticed the contradiction in the first place), so I'm just going to assume Core Arvandor and FR Arvandor are different (since people seem to suggest they are), and Erik said the Arvandor described in the Plane Above was influenced by his love of the Realms, but from my understanding now not the same thing. I kind of regret starting this thread. I did not know Erik wrote it and I've probably already offended him enough, which I did not mean to do (the last thing I want is to offend the authors!). I'm just going to assume my beloved Arvandor is the same it's always been. Please read this, but don't bother responding because I'm going to unsubscribe to this thread. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 05:12:21
Hmm, well...I think your perception, if you will, changes when you're dead, so that you don't get bored. There could be some exceptions, I suppose. I just don't like the "die again" concept. But again, I'm starting to believe--as Erik pointed out in his first post, that the 4e core Arvandor (or Points of Light. I don't know, I'm not familiar with all the kinds of D&D) is different from FR. There were some things in Plane Above that seemed rather different than FR, unless I completely missed something and the Lattice of Heaven is part of Realms lore, too.
I'm just basing my perception on all that I've read in the Realms. I do not know that much about the other D&D settings (and really, since joining this site, I'm learning how ignorant about the Realms I am). I am the type of person to base my knowledge on what I've read. Of course I try to expand my knowledge if something interests me, but if I suddenly read something that contradicts everything else I've read on the subject, I tend to go "wait, what?" A fault of mine, I guess. I'm fussy. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 04:56:33
I don't know, CD, don't you think it'd get boring? How many fields can an elf frolic through before he's frolicked through all of them? |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 03:51:10
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Until there's a novel that travels to Arvandor, I guess we don't really know. And even then. 
If I wrote a novel that went to Arvandor, my vision of the plane would be more like the 2e version.
Cheers
I see your point, but what I meant by "all things I've read" is all novels featuring elves as the main characters, whenever Arvandor is mentioned, it is implied that it is a permanent place for a souls, a "heaven", if you will. True, the elves won't really know until they get there, but since religion in the Realms, unlike RW, is more than faith-based, I tend to look at the realms of the gods the same way I do the gods themselves: there is a certain amount of knowledge involved. Of course the gods have mystery to them (too much and mortal minds would be fried). The Demihuman Deities book I have (one of the few sourcebooks I have), while I have not read through the whole thing, but what I have read, I got the impression Arvandor was a permanent place for souls.
Call me a romantic, but I take comfort in the idea of a permanent, good afterlife (this is applying to the Realms. I'm not trying to bring RW religion into this). I think people have enough problems in life. They don't need it in death. of course, if you worship an evil deity, while, that's a different story.
I don't mean to offend your work, Erik, and I apologize if I have.
Erm...where can I find the 2e info on it? Is it in Demihuman Deities? |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 17:12:20
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Until there's a novel that travels to Arvandor, I guess we don't really know. And even then.
If I wrote a novel that went to Arvandor, my vision of the plane would be more like the 2e version.
Cheers
Well, we caught a glimpse of it in Evermeet, but not enough to make any solid determinations. Outside of a Planescape game, I'd rather make the outer planes and the afterlife a bit more of a question. Even if the PCs end up there, there is a huge difference between spending a few hours in one of the Outer Planes to get something done and knowing exactly how the higher planes and the afterlife work. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 16:50:40
Until there's a novel that travels to Arvandor, I guess we don't really know. And even then.
If I wrote a novel that went to Arvandor, my vision of the plane would be more like the 2e version.
Cheers |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 03:33:24
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I didn't like finding out that you can die in the afterlife either ,after all devils and demons are fiendishly difficult to kill but its ridiculously easy to kill an angel or as you pointed out an elven soul resting in Arvandor. Hope this gets changed in 5e.
At least change it to something like if you are "killed " in the not so ever after you are reincarnated on the prime material plane you came from.
Where did you get 'die in the afterlife' from?
As I said at the beginning of this thread, it's from the book Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea. Though since starting this thread, Erik, who wrote the section (I didn't know until he told me), says the Arvandor in that book vs the one in the Realms differ, and the one in Plane Above was just influenced by his love of the Realms. I hope I didn't offend you by creating this thread, Erik. I was just surprised.  But from my understanding now, the Arvandor in FR is different, and based on all Realms lore I've read that mentions Arvandor, suggests it is a permanent place for souls. I sure hope so! |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 01:33:23
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I picture the afterlife being akin to how things worked in the Riverworld series - you get killed, you get reincarnated (in the Outer Planes) the next morning.
Only Elder Evils and specific things (artifacts, the River Styx) should be able to completely obliterate a soul. Fiends are a tough one - supposedly they 'consume' souls, but I think its more a matter of absorbing the soul, which means it could be released (although not easily).
I try to apply RW science to my fantasy as much as possible, and since I consider a soul = energy, and "energy can neither be created nor destroyed", that means a soul that is 'consumed' by a fiend should still exist in some form (and possibly be 'filtered out'). I am sure its not a very pleasant experience, and I would think it should have some long-lasting effects on the soul. So on some level, a fiend is kinda like a 'dirty sponge'.
It's actually mentioned in a few places, I want to say the Fiendish Codex, but I could be wrong, that at the very least, souls used by devils in their infernal rituals that promote a devil from one form to another *can* be restored, and that an archdevil who needs some souls in a pinch will resort to demoting devils to lesser forms to regain the souls used in it's promotion. |
| Razz |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 19:58:01
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I also don't think that just because you don't like the cosmology of a certain edition means it should "go die sooner than later." Some people like playing in that world, and some people blissfully ignore the whole "afterlife is temporary" thing and just roll with the cosmology as it's always been.
The cosmology evolves and changes over the course of the editions, but there are more similarities between the editions than differences. The differences are more a question of perspective than actual mechanical changes in how the universe functions.
I don't know, but I suspect that 5e will have a cosmology that resembles more what older fans are accustomed to.
Cheers
We must be reading different D&D books then because the Arvandor I've read about has been very similar up until 4th Edition. Now I understand 3e Realms went with their own personal cosmology, but that was such an easy fix for creative folks that you realize it hasn't changed much.
Each plane was named after a "Planar Realm" from pre-3E editions. According to the Planescape setting, each Outer Plane had distinct sections known as Layers, and within these Layers were practically infinite number of Realms. Because of the infinite expanse of the planes, each world can easily have their own cosmology without necessarily always intersecting with other world cosmos & mythos while at the same time unifying everything. It was a rather clever balance from the designers, I say.
Looking at the planar "Tree Cosmology" chart for 3E FR, one can easily surmise that that is the cosmology as known to the Realmspace native scholar. Planescape was smart to dictate that Material Plane natives were very ignorant of how the multiverse worked and was mapped.
It's safe to easily say that almost every time someone plane travels in the Realms they will find themselves in one of their cosmology's planes, but the deeper truth is that it is a mere "speck" compared to the vastness of the plane it resides on. This truth is almost never learned thanks to such seclusion and ignorance of anything "beyond" as well as the fact that being an infinite multiverse, one need not bother with either learning of such details or higher beings ever informing mortals of such details.
So for example, someone arrives at the House of Knowledge, to a Realmsian plane traveler, that place is its own plane and there couldn't be much beyond it. Little do they know that the House of Knowledge is but a speck in the infinite expanse of the "Outlands" (which, surprisingly, MUST exist in the Realms cosmology even if not marked because the Netherese had a huge war with "natives extraplanar beings" from the Outlands).
That's how I've always handled the inconsistency and it's worked out. The only problem was when they made the Astral Plane coterminous with the entire multiverse whereas it was always just a solid connection between the Outer Planes and Material Plane.
So, in the case of Arvandor, to the Realms folks, it is it's own outer plane. The truth; Arvandor is but a realm in the more expansive Outer Plane of Arborea, where Zeus and his Olympians are known neighbors. But, of course, the planar sage of the Realms will probably never be privy to that information in his or her lifetime. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 14:55:25
I picture the afterlife being akin to how things worked in the Riverworld series - you get killed, you get reincarnated (in the Outer Planes) the next morning.
Only Elder Evils and specific things (artifacts, the River Styx) should be able to completely obliterate a soul. Fiends are a tough one - supposedly they 'consume' souls, but I think its more a matter of absorbing the soul, which means it could be released (although not easily).
I try to apply RW science to my fantasy as much as possible, and since I consider a soul = energy, and "energy can neither be created nor destroyed", that means a soul that is 'consumed' by a fiend should still exist in some form (and possibly be 'filtered out'). I am sure its not a very pleasant experience, and I would think it should have some long-lasting effects on the soul. So on some level, a fiend is kinda like a 'dirty sponge'. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 13:16:03
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I didn't like finding out that you can die in the afterlife either ,after all devils and demons are fiendishly difficult to kill but its ridiculously easy to kill an angel or as you pointed out an elven soul resting in Arvandor. Hope this gets changed in 5e.
At least change it to something like if you are "killed " in the not so ever after you are reincarnated on the prime material plane you came from.
Where did you get 'die in the afterlife' from? |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 14:44:27
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
To be perfectly fair, Lady Penitent is a disappointment not because of Lisa Smedman, her writing style, or her understanding of various mechanics. It fails because someone else,
Well, that too. But still, she didn't pay much attention to the lore in other cases too, and still, there used to be a job called "continuity editor" - which, as the name implies, consists of making sure things are coherent before anyone else can see them. Even if this poor soul was bound, gagged and stuffed in the maps closet while someone sneaked weird cosmology retcons to the authors and back, there was much more than that particular mess.
The lack of interest even in very basics while knowing someone else already wrote something on this is the author's fault. Failure to fix it sits squarely on the continuity editor.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
@Old Man Harpell & THBeholder: Lady Penitent was just one example I was using because of all the souls that went to Arvandor, and the implication was that it was a good place where souls could have a –permanent- afterlife, not a temporary one.
What's "permanent"? Not just this or that god's personal realm, but layers were and will be trashed, making the shape of planes change. There are always expectations of Ragnarok, the end of Blood War, whatnot.
It's just that things either change or they don't, in the former case it's not a permanent state, in the later it amounts to "put on a shelf to collect dust". That the time scale of significant changes out on the planes should be very long for any mortal's eye, well, yeah - and PS used it, and compensated with scaling the playground itself near-infinite so that the changes happen all the time... somewhere, and thus it's not static.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
but I have wondered about the results of that trilogy. Some drow suddenly became dark elves (which was also a term synonymous with drow) with brown skin and black hair. But since this trilogy, I have read nothing about them. So if WotC really did make her write things in a certain way, where are the results?
Never was interested in this... But my guess is that retcon was easy to do, because it was pointless stirring the cauldron like in some MMO to make these superficially less boring - and not a single thought about the big picture as a whole, so one step later everything did grind to halt. Oops.
In this case, there's no way left that isn't utterly laughable or contrived into babble that would lead from the starting point to... anywhere, really. Because obvious consequences are obvious. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 23:49:31
I would have preferred a reboot over a retcon - starting fresh with a 'new' OGB. Basically, everything would still be canon, unless overwritten at some future point. That would not automatically invalidate all the old lore... just put it in a 'holding pattern'.
However, they have made it clear the won't be "moving backward" - the setting will continue to move forward from the 4e era. I'm okay with that at this point.
I do think its a bit short-sighted to just except everything ever written as canon at this point, because why have "respect for what others have done in the past", when those same 'others' had no respect for what came before? That doesn't make you a 'better person', it makes you a doormat. If 5e doesn't pan-out, I can guarantee the next group is going to just throw everything out and start over (if there even is a next time).
But it is what it is, and I am looking forward to whatever 5e will bring. I haven't felt this enthusiastic about D&d and The Realms in several years. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 23:26:41
@Thauranil: so do I, though it is sounding like this doesn't pretain to the Realms, thankfully (no offense, Erik, I respect you. I am just expressing my opinion). The Arvandor of the Realms seems more permanent, so maybe I shouldn't be so concerned with it, since my main focus is FR. Still, since there -are- similarities, it was a bit surprising to read that part in The Plane Above (again, no offense Erik).
@Old Man Harpell & THBeholder: Lady Penitent was just one example I was using because of all the souls that went to Arvandor, and the implication was that it was a good place where souls could have a –permanent- afterlife, not a temporary one. But this was not the only Realms book I have read that has indicated as much.I have gotten the same impression from other novels as well. But since we are talking about Smedman, I’ll continue. I did not know if she was “forced” or not, but I have wondered about the results of that trilogy. Some drow suddenly became dark elves (which was also a term synonymous with drow) with brown skin and black hair. But since this trilogy, I have read nothing about them. So if WotC really did make her write things in a certain way, where are the results? If you know, please tell me. It’s something that’s had me curious.
@Markustay: in your opinion, should there be a retcon? I don’t want to step on any toes, because while I know a lot of people do not like 4e, and I myself am not too happy about the Spellplague and its results, I understand that the designers worked hard to piece it together, and collaborating on a shared world isn’t easy. And there were some good novels that came out of 4e. But I also know there were some major disappointments.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 19:29:39
Unfortunately, at least two of the 'culprits' are still with the company. Hopefully they won't let them anywhere near 5e FR.
When I owned my own construction company, I used to get called a lot to 'fix' other guys work. Most of the time it was just better to rip it all out and start fresh (in which case it was costing the customer more then if they just hired me in the first place). And BTW... I have TWICE been asked to fix things done by Extreme Makeover: Home Edition contractors (and have had to fly out of state to do so). There is a reason why they are able to slap those death-traps together in just a few days.
Anyhow, my point is, IMHO sometimes its just better to throw out the bad and start over. Unfortunately, the FR designers don't have that luxury. You'd never catch me building a deck on top of another (unstable) one. I guess when the only lives at stake are fictional ones, you can afford not to be so picky. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 19:12:25
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I happen to like Lisa Smedman as an author.
Well, she is a fairly good writer - on her own - but good understanding of the whole "continuity" thing never hurts. And, even aside of the discussed problems, may improve one's writing significantly. I'm pretty sure Lisa Smedman didn't want to play a prima donna and tell everyone how everything "should be", it's just a blind spot running into lack of guidance. Because either way, the very fact that inconsistency got past the first drafts points at either executive meddling or (more likely) a continuity editor way too busy chewing donuts to give some help to the authors who don't have enough of foresight to ask for directions.
Which doesn't make the ensuing mess any less of a cephalothoraxache.
To be perfectly fair, Lady Penitent is a disappointment not because of Lisa Smedman, her writing style, or her understanding of various mechanics. It fails because someone else, someone who had absolutely zero clue what they were doing, and likely had zero love of the Realms in any way, shape, or form, dictated to Lisa Smedman exactly what had to happen in the books.
Whoever this person was (and Wizbro is wise indeed not to reveal the name) has zero understanding of elves, zero understanding of drow, zero understanding of the Seldarine, zero understanding period of anything Realms-related. Lady Penitent is saved from being a complete disaster because of Smedman's efforts - I am of the opinion she understands quite well, but simply was not allowed to write what could have been a simply outstanding series of books.
I am glad indeed that whoever this unnamed person is, is very likely no longer employed at Wizbro, and can no longer do the same type of colossal damage they seemed to have taken a perverse delight in. Lisa Smedman simply must be allowed to write without some literary zampolit breathing down her neck. Better than anyone, I think, she could do justice to what needs to happen concerning the drow pantheon.
- OMH |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 17:41:51
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I happen to like Lisa Smedman as an author.
Well, she is a fairly good writer - on her own - but good understanding of the whole "continuity" thing never hurts. And, even aside of the discussed problems, may improve one's writing significantly. I'm pretty sure Lisa Smedman didn't want to play a prima donna and tell everyone how everything "should be", it's just a blind spot running into lack of guidance. Because either way, the very fact that inconsistency got past the first drafts points at either executive meddling or (more likely) a continuity editor way too busy chewing donuts to give some help to the authors who don't have enough of foresight to ask for directions.
Which doesn't make the ensuing mess any less of a cephalothoraxache.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
And considering I mostly read the novels, the “temporary afterlife” doesn’t sit well with me. If I’m reading a book and one of my favorite characters dies (we’ll say this character is an elf since we’re talking about Arvandor), it’s a comfort to know their soul is going to a good place permanently, and I don’t have to worry about them dying a second time. Fictional or not, it’s still important to me *shrugs*
Planescape approach to it basically looks like this: it varies. On the upside, it's less pointless than "just put him on a shelf" deal. So, IIRC...
Usually (no divine favours up to immediate apotheosis, special pacts, undeath, soul-eating monsters, etc), someone who got put in the dead-book reaches the appropriate "final" destination plane>layer>realm and becomes a petitioner. Usually this means a commoner without the mortal's memory, but with skills, attitude, etc - but of course, it differs: gods of magic may want their faithful capable of some spellcasting, in Beastlands most become animals, on the Waste become larvae, etc.
Usually petitioners hang around indefinitely and improve their understanding of their deity (if any) or the plane itself until eventually merge with it - which they perceive as their goal. This still may or may not be quite the end of the road, because gods occasionally create a critter or thousand and even planes spawn creatures.
Sometimes petitioners get "promoted" (become more powerful planar creatures and/or minions of local powers).
There are always some variations - e.g. petitioners of Valhalla aren't weak commoners, most of the time fight for fun and training for the Ragnarok and when get killed, don't stay like this too long, so for them it's a fight-die-rise-feast-rinse-repeat deal.
Yup, sometimes a crazy planewalker pops in and wastes time to off a random mostly harmless petitioner, while ludicrously overpowered creatures roaming about are closing in to end a disturbance the hard way - but then, for petitioners being killed on the home plane merely equals merging in a less satisfying way, so deadly force usually isn't quite enough to scare them. Conversely, the most likely way for a petitioner to get deader than dead is to leave the place and get killed outside, though summoning doesn't count as proper "leaving". Which is one more reason why they don't go anywhere else for any reasons less than direct orders of their gods - which doesn't happen every day. |
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