| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 19:39:31
In another thread the idea of FR's 'tech level' is being discussed. I happen to think that the society is about equivalent to our own - in some places in more advanced thanks to liberalism - but the tech-level seems to always be about the same, over the course of 30K+ years. My own theory is that the preponderance of magic steals-away the 'amazement factor' that new tech often brings to the table.
What would be so cool about a cigarette lighter or flashlight when Mages can do these things easily? Why have your house wired for electricity, when a few magical devices can accomplish much the same thing? Warfare, comfort, travel... all made easier by magic. Tech would play second-fiddle to magic when it comes to so many things. Hence, technology does advance through new discoveries, but people just aren't as fascinated by them as we are in the RW, so folks loose interest. The best any 'tech' can hope for is it becomes a fad for awhile... like guns.
And yes, I realize tech is nerfed in FR... but that's just a heavy-handed way of keeping players from making meta-gaming discoveries.
Back in 3e the map was greatly reduced just so that it all fit (neatly) on one poster-map. It also had the secondary 'benefit' of making the world a bit smaller, so travel became somewhat easier. 4e took this a step further, by nuking many 'far away' places (like Maztica), and bringing large groups of 'foreigners' (everything form the Shou to Dragonborn, Tieflings, and Genasi) into the heartlands. As a gamer, I can understand this thinking - to put all the 'toys' within a DM's reach.
The problem was, the setting already had a fix for this - the portal network FR was famous for. They got rid of this in 4e, which was completely counter-intuitive to the concept of 'making the world a smaller place'. One thing I think nearly all of us agree on is bringing this back to the fore and have those portals all working again in 5eFR. They are just too useful to shelf like that.
Now, the point of me turning this into its own thread.... how much 'tech' is too much, even when its disguised as magic? I ask this because I was thinking about creating a series of permanent Gates, similar to how a train system would be set-up (stations), with access-points in several major cities. Waterdeep and Silvermoon jump right to mind, but I was also thinking about adding Calimport (or Athkatla or Darromar) and Suzail. Evetually maybe even Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate and one Moonsea location (Hulburg?) and one eastern one (Sultim?). I suppose a southern one should be added as well - I'd say Halruaa, but who knows what they are going to do with the south in 5e (its so messed up right now).
Would that be too much, even if it was just limited to people and their personal belongings? (so it wouldn't impact trade very much) |
| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 20:24:55
It would be part of the portal itself - you have to hit a 'reset button' on the other end, after a successful transport. There would be a light that lights red while the system is in 'cool-down', then yellow when it is ready, and green when the reset is hit (which means "All is well, end another). The only thing that would be fully automated would be the five-minute cool-down (for obvious safety reasons).
There would have to be another light (I'm thinking 'glowing gem', to make it less techy and more magical) - maybe blue - which signals that the other side is sending someone through (since the portal is two-way, I have to allow for this... hadn't thought of that earlier). The system would be designed to take turns, but if the blue light doesn't come on when it is the other side's turn (given a minute or two), then it is assumed they have no one waiting in the que and the same side can send another. I'm not really picturing long lines - I'm thinking the cost should be at least 500 GP (and I am very stingy in my games - gold means something). It could just be a few dozen people a day, if that.
As for the power source - I am thinking something like a cross between an artifurnace (SJ) and a mythalar. It would behave like a very specific mythalar (and the portal itself quasi-magical in nature), allowing for the teleportation and signaling-gems to function, but it would require an artifact to power it (and the theft of such an artifact could also e good for an adventure hook).
I just realized something else - this is only good for a two-point system. If multiple destinations were added, I'd need a much more complicated system of lights (one for each locale), and also two portals for each station; one for arrivals, and one for departures.
The only trade I really seeing being viable with this system is gems. They are small enough to carry a lot, and they could be cost-effective enough to offset the prohibitive price of traveling. Also, a single valuable (magical?) item might be worth transporting, if one had a buyer at the other end. I believe Aurora's already has this option.
LOL - Aurora's Whole-Realms Teleportraption Service.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 19:50:56
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I understand completely.
Ever go to a waterpark? The guy at the top of the ride has to wait until the lifeguard at the bottom signals him to let the next person go. Its basically the same thing - if someone doesn't come out the other end, the system gets shutdown and a full investigation is done. You couldn't highjack an entire group of people.
Of course, I've already figured out a way around that (simulcrums/illusions) in case I want to send my players someplace unexpected as part of an adventure. The security systems should be fallible (as they are in the RW), but extremely hard to penetrate (and usually not worth the effort). I want just enough wiggle-room to make things interesting, but not so much where it no longer makes sense.
Also, just like in an airport, only the persons traveling would be allowed in the terminal area - security would be high and everyone would get checked and rechecked. Of course, I have figured out ways around this as well (a dupe - either mind-controlled or willing - is sent through security, and somehow a switch is made after the checks... which shouldn't be possible). The idea is that if someone with a lot of money/power/magic wanted to get around the security measures, its possible, but at that point you would have to ask yourself if the intended goal was worth that amount of effort.
You know like when a super-villain robs a bank for a few hundred thousand, and you realize he probably had about 5 million dollars worth of tech to accomplish it. When you have to ask yourself (in comics) "why didn't the guy just patent all of his inventions? He could have made a lot more money with military contracts", that's when when you realize you've outgrown comics. Same goes for wizards (or spacemen, or anything else) - if there are simpler/cheaper ways to accomplish the same thing, why would anyone bother tampering with the official system? If Manshoon wants to enter Suzail, he simply teleports directly to it.
Kidnapping is an interesting possibility, but royals (and other equally important folk) have their own methods, and wouldn't use the transit system. I wouldn't be surprised if some evil mages took to monitoring the portals the War Wizards use, just for such opportunities.
Yeah, you and I are thinking along similar lines (i.e. you'll never cover everything, but you want to make it believable that people put in an effort to make it safe)... and this is starting to sound more viable. The 5 minute wait being an explicit time limitation of the portal I see as being a good thing. Also, yes, there will ALWAYS be fallibility. The key to this is for the DM to know the exact security measures in place, whereas the players (and users) should not. However, they should know enough to know that there are certain measures in place, and they may let the most high level rules out to make the populace feel secure about it.
So, taking this lifeguard idea into play, how exactly do we put this into play? We could setup some separate message relay system that sends this information back to the other side... but that's adding another layer of complexity. I'm thinking something more basic... Say there are 20 guards on each side. A person goes from side 1 to side 2.... then a guard goes from side 2 to side 1 to report someone came through.... then said exact same guard comes back from side 1 to side 2 to report the other side is clear. Now, does this have to happen after each transfer? No, you could say "herd" the last 10 travelers from the last hour into a waiting room, then use the last 10 minutes in an hour to do this check with a guard. Does this mean that in theory 10 people COULD get killed before people realize it... yeah, but that's acceptable risk. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 18:00:32
I understand completely.
Ever go to a waterpark? The guy at the top of the ride has to wait until the lifeguard at the bottom signals him to let the next person go. Its basically the same thing - if someone doesn't come out the other end, the system gets shutdown and a full investigation is done. You couldn't highjack an entire group of people.
Of course, I've already figured out a way around that (simulcrums/illusions) in case I want to send my players someplace unexpected as part of an adventure. The security systems should be fallible (as they are in the RW), but extremely hard to penetrate (and usually not worth the effort). I want just enough wiggle-room to make things interesting, but not so much where it no longer makes sense.
Also, just like in an airport, only the persons traveling would be allowed in the terminal area - security would be high and everyone would get checked and rechecked. Of course, I have figured out ways around this as well (a dupe - either mind-controlled or willing - is sent through security, and somehow a switch is made after the checks... which shouldn't be possible). The idea is that if someone with a lot of money/power/magic wanted to get around the security measures, its possible, but at that point you would have to ask yourself if the intended goal was worth that amount of effort.
You know like when a super-villain robs a bank for a few hundred thousand, and you realize he probably had about 5 million dollars worth of tech to accomplish it. When you have to ask yourself (in comics) "why didn't the guy just patent all of his inventions? He could have made a lot more money with military contracts", that's when when you realize you've outgrown comics. Same goes for wizards (or spacemen, or anything else) - if there are simpler/cheaper ways to accomplish the same thing, why would anyone bother tampering with the official system? If Manshoon wants to enter Suzail, he simply teleports directly to it.
Kidnapping is an interesting possibility, but royals (and other equally important folk) have their own methods, and wouldn't use the transit system. I wouldn't be surprised if some evil mages took to monitoring the portals the War Wizards use, just for such opportunities. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 16:54:44
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I assume a large number of contingencies, like "no undead", and of course there would be an 'off switch'. Also, there would be a time period between teleports - say, 5 minutes - which would also equal the 'daze effect' people 'landing' on the far side would undergo. Thus, you could only send one at a time, and they would be incapable of fighting (or much of anything else) when they arrived (making them easy to deal wtih - the portal would be heavily guarded). Arrivals on the far end would also be subject to any of the local laws (so weapons could be confiscated, or at least peace-knotted).
Yes, 'magical terrorism' would be possible if someone was very determined, but how is that any different then our RW? People still fly (and I live in NY, and have flown at least twice as much SINCE 9/11). In fact, that type of scenario would just add another layer of intrigue (so it adds D&D gaming possibilities).
As for the problem of not letting folks from 'bad places' in... that argument holds no water as far as I'm concerned. As of right now, with all the very indistinct borders, anyone can get into anywhere. I happen to think that a portal-station would be a far more secure way of 'watching suspect individuals'. If anything, 'bad types' would avoid the system because of all the security. Why would a Zhent (or Thayan, or anyone else) risk it, when they can simply walk across the border?
I'm talking about well-maintained, closely guarded system, similar to a modern airport (but looking more like a train station). Also, whats to stop a powerful Mage from building his own gate-system without the safety features, and dumping an army into the middle of Waterdeep, or Suzail? If no-one's done it already, then there should be something wrong with the idea - why would 'bad guys' suddenly go, "why didn't we think of that?" Since it can be done, better a government controlled system then some random one built by enterprising (and unscrupulous) Mages. As of right now, canonically, anyone with enough coin can get a wizard to cast teleport regardless, so the world is already super-insecure. Putting in an official' system like this actually adds a layer of security.
I am also not talking about putting this into the canon Realms, so lets not have any "Not in my Realms!" responses. I wouldn't want to see such an obvious McGuffin put in place in the official seeing either. I just want an easy way for my players to get around, without me having to run a lot of hex-crawls (cross-country random encounters). In that way, I can get more functionality out of the entire Realms, not just my local corner of it.
I like all the discussion thus-far; the negative posts are very helpful, actually (so thanks for those). They allow me to forsee any problems I haven't already thought of. 
You asked a good question and gave a good example from the real world, so I want to give the counterpoint. In our world, flying can be dangerous. However, for the most part, air terminals are relatively hard to get into, there's inspections, etc.... If there were really wizards in our modern world who could say teleport into the bathroom of a plane, plant a bomb or simply disintegrate a hole in the engine, and teleport out... our mass transit systems like flying would be paralyzed. It quite simply would be too easy for someone to cause mass death AND mass profit loss destroying expensive planes. As a result, planes would have to incorporate security provisions to prevent teleportation (however, they'd WANT to allow teleportation in if pilots were killed, etc... as that would be a good option). That's all I'm saying here is, as you're developing the idea, also think about the basic security issues that would scare the living hell out of the populace and address them as well. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 18:52:37
I assume a large number of contingencies, like "no undead", and of course there would be an 'off switch'. Also, there would be a time period between teleports - say, 5 minutes - which would also equal the 'daze effect' people 'landing' on the far side would undergo. Thus, you could only send one at a time, and they would be incapable of fighting (or much of anything else) when they arrived (making them easy to deal wtih - the portal would be heavily guarded). Arrivals on the far end would also be subject to any of the local laws (so weapons could be confiscated, or at least peace-knotted).
Yes, 'magical terrorism' would be possible if someone was very determined, but how is that any different then our RW? People still fly (and I live in NY, and have flown at least twice as much SINCE 9/11). In fact, that type of scenario would just add another layer of intrigue (so it adds D&D gaming possibilities).
As for the problem of not letting folks from 'bad places' in... that argument holds no water as far as I'm concerned. As of right now, with all the very indistinct borders, anyone can get into anywhere. I happen to think that a portal-station would be a far more secure way of 'watching suspect individuals'. If anything, 'bad types' would avoid the system because of all the security. Why would a Zhent (or Thayan, or anyone else) risk it, when they can simply walk across the border?
I'm talking about well-maintained, closely guarded system, similar to a modern airport (but looking more like a train station). Also, whats to stop a powerful Mage from building his own gate-system without the safety features, and dumping an army into the middle of Waterdeep, or Suzail? If no-one's done it already, then there should be something wrong with the idea - why would 'bad guys' suddenly go, "why didn't we think of that?" Since it can be done, better a government controlled system then some random one built by enterprising (and unscrupulous) Mages. As of right now, canonically, anyone with enough coin can get a wizard to cast teleport regardless, so the world is already super-insecure. Putting in an official' system like this actually adds a layer of security.
I am also not talking about putting this into the canon Realms, so lets not have any "Not in my Realms!" responses. I wouldn't want to see such an obvious McGuffin put in place in the official seeing either. I just want an easy way for my players to get around, without me having to run a lot of hex-crawls (cross-country random encounters). In that way, I can get more functionality out of the entire Realms, not just my local corner of it.
I like all the discussion thus-far; the negative posts are very helpful, actually (so thanks for those). They allow me to forsee any problems I haven't already thought of. |
| Doge |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 17:06:23
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I think one of the first things that intra-city portal makers would make would be racial components to their portals. Many of them would be keyed to human only. Some might allow human, halfling, and gnome (as these races typically are more involved with urban humanity. Next might come elves and dwarves. Finally, they might open it to other local races on either end. I can also see specific blocks put in place besides the allow. I would think of these rules in place sort of like a firewall, in that I can see there being a "deny" for undead and a "deny" for outsiders, etc... for every creature type except humanoids before any allow statements. That way, even if someone were to twist the allow statements to allow say tanar'ri, the deny would still be in effect. However, if someone were to twist the deny for outsiders to say a deny for magical beasts, the allow statements would still block them.
What could work. Racial filters are a great way of screening travel. Also, each could also have a personal ward pass keyed to his identity to allow usage of portals. Kinda like a member's biomentric i.d. That way not everyone could use the portal and if someone were to use your ward pass, well it wouldn't work for him/her. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 15:57:08
I think one of the first things that intra-city portal makers would make would be racial components to their portals. Many of them would be keyed to human only. Some might allow human, halfling, and gnome (as these races typically are more involved with urban humanity. Next might come elves and dwarves. Finally, they might open it to other local races on either end. I can also see specific blocks put in place besides the allow. I would think of these rules in place sort of like a firewall, in that I can see there being a "deny" for undead and a "deny" for outsiders, etc... for every creature type except humanoids before any allow statements. That way, even if someone were to twist the allow statements to allow say tanar'ri, the deny would still be in effect. However, if someone were to twist the deny for outsiders to say a deny for magical beasts, the allow statements would still block them. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 15:42:38
quote:
Originally posted by Doge
As dazzlerdal pointed out earlier, Undrek'Thoz has a series of portals that link the city together which allow the citizens to traverse the large segmented city easily. The portals have a restriction that nothing made of metal can pass through which makes marching an army through them unlikely. They could march an army through it, but they'll be armed and armoured with inferior equipment or highly expensive magical metal substitutes. Add a restriction that nothing magical could pass through the portals and your only worry would be spellcasters. And they'll probably just teleport to the location and not bother with the portal anyway. This could make the portals a viable option for travel and transport.
Also, just to note, I see the underdark being an area that would be quicker to adopt the use of portals, due to the definite dangers of traversing the underdark to get from point A to point B. That in and of itself would likely outweigh other worries that surface dwellers would see, so this is a good case to look at. Even there, they did put certain restrictions on their portals. However, just to point out, their restrictions don't prevent "for instance" someone putting their weapons in an extraplanar space, turning them into a cloth beltsash with the item spell, etc.... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 15:38:32
quote:
Originally posted by Doge
As dazzlerdal pointed out earlier, Undrek'Thoz has a series of portals that link the city together which allow the citizens to traverse the large segmented city easily. The portals have a restriction that nothing made of metal can pass through which makes marching an army through them unlikely. They could march an army through it, but they'll be armed and armoured with inferior equipment or highly expensive magical metal substitutes. Add a restriction that nothing magical could pass through the portals and your only worry would be spellcasters. And they'll probably just teleport to the location and not bother with the portal anyway. This could make the portals a viable option for travel and transport.
Natural weapons are the quick way around this. If one of the worries is a fiendish horde coming through using a previously established portal... |
| Doge |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 14:46:07
As dazzlerdal pointed out earlier, Undrek'Thoz has a series of portals that link the city together which allow the citizens to traverse the large segmented city easily. The portals have a restriction that nothing made of metal can pass through which makes marching an army through them unlikely. They could march an army through it, but they'll be armed and armoured with inferior equipment or highly expensive magical metal substitutes. Add a restriction that nothing magical could pass through the portals and your only worry would be spellcasters. And they'll probably just teleport to the location and not bother with the portal anyway. This could make the portals a viable option for travel and transport. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 11:38:12
Thinking on this a bit more, I was thinking it might be a good idea to discuss what might be some working ideas for portal use. For instance, pre-spellplague, Thay had very little forest, as the land was cleared for agriculture. I could see a portal being setup within a woodlands. This portal would only allow dead plant material to be moved through it. There would be the standard guards guarding it, with say the ability to use command words to summon extraplanar aid of various sorts (i.e. creatures bound to servitude). Furthermore, this portal might have several contingencies on it, such as one that any spellcasting performed in its vicinity causes an anti-magic shell to be cast upon its area, and an alarm spell to be sounded back in Thay. It being Thay, they'd probably also put a few nasty automated response assaults in place too for outside the anti-magic shell (i.e. bring up a wall of fire, a cloudkill effect, some nasty summoning, etc..). There may also be a "secondary" contingency put in place on the other side which shunts all incoming traffic down into a nasty holding area should an alarm go off (not necessarily immediately deadly, but a place that can quickly be turned into such). If the "prerequisites" of the portal are changed from "dead plant", maybe the far side portal has a contingent effect to simply cast an effect to change them back. Now, think mean and nasty... how would you turn this portal against them (as I'm fairly certain I haven't covered all issues)?
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 11:09:48
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thanks so far for the replies.
I was thinking a one-at-a-time situation, sort of like how people are 'processed' in Terra Nova - a TV program where individuals are sent through a Gate back in time. Basically, you are searched, given a physical, all your papers have to be in order, yadda, yadda, yadda. In other words, make the system as safe and reliable as possible. For instance, anyone suspected of being a Zhent agent doesn't get to 'ride' (and there would be random mind-screening as well).
I wouldn't want trade to be carried out this way - perhaps make it have a 300 lb. weight limit, and also size restraints (so you couldn't shove a zeppelin through it, even though it doesn't have 'weight'). Basically just a means of travel, for a person and some small personal items (like a person traveling by plane with a carry-on). It wouldn't be continuous - it would be one person at a time, just like a teleport spell, only point-to-point.
It would also be VERY expensive, so only the wealthy (including successful adventures) would bother with it.
Until the guards on the other side from you are killed and the newly created undead from that civilization start getting funnelled through. This system only works if "you trust the other side" to not fail.
Oh, and please understand, I'm not against the portal idea... I'm doing as I said... I'm trying here to help develop the idea by being the "voice of reason within the city council" as it were. With sufficient safeguards in place (I'm not even sure what they'd be), I'm betting you could put such in place and make the people of Faerun feel safe for such well known portals to be in place and used frequently (without someone freaking out and sending someone to destroy the portal in the name of the imminent safety of the community). But any good idea like this should come along with the design of the security ideas. Otherwise, the "evil" adventurers are going to mess with it and point out the basic flaws. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 11:00:36
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thanks so far for the replies.
I was thinking a one-at-a-time situation, sort of like how people are 'processed' in Terra Nova - a TV program where individuals are sent through a Gate back in time. Basically, you are searched, given a physical, all your papers have to be in order, yadda, yadda, yadda. In other words, make the system as safe and reliable as possible. For instance, anyone suspected of being a Zhent agent doesn't get to 'ride' (and there would be random mind-screening as well).
I wouldn't want trade to be carried out this way - perhaps make it have a 300 lb. weight limit, and also size restraints (so you couldn't shove a zeppelin through it, even though it doesn't have 'weight'). Basically just a means of travel, for a person and some small personal items (like a person traveling by plane with a carry-on). It wouldn't be continuous - it would be one person at a time, just like a teleport spell, only point-to-point.
It would also be VERY expensive, so only the wealthy (including successful adventures) would bother with it.
Until the guards on the other side from you are killed and the newly created undead from that civilization start getting funnelled through. This system only works if "you trust the other side" to not fail. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 10:56:11
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
First... regime change in the country on the other side, and the new regime is hostile to your own. Now, you've just put an enemy on your front doorstep that never would have been there. Second... some pain in the butt wizard develops a spell to temporarily shunt the other side of the portal to somewhere else that's filled with nasty-bads. Now, you've just put an enemy on your front doorstep that never would have been there.
These could both be countered, theoretically, by simply shutting down your side of the portal, either destroying it or moving it a long way away. Installing a rapid-transit system without a safety feature like that sounds (to me) as if you're just begging to have it messed with, so you really deserve everything you get in that case.
As a note on the Stargate comparison, I would like to point out that getting those particular gates activated (without a DHD) required an immense power source. And the ones with a DHD more or less ran on "applied phlebotinum" with regard to activating them. It wasn't difficult at all to shut them down as a result (remove the control crystal, and it was game over).
That would assume noone's messing with "the controls". At least in stargate, you're right, you had this physical mechanism. A magical portal would be shut down how exactly.... be careful how you answer that, because its magical, and magic can be more easily and quietly messed with than that stargate system. If your "control station" is at the portal it can be overrun, but if its far away, it can be tampered with without the people at the portal knowing what's happening.
You could also try to setup some kind of cover to go over the front of it, like they use in stargate.... except how many spells are there that transmute rock or metal into some other medium? Or create a passwall type effect? |
| Doge |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 07:21:17
I find it sad that mundane technology stagnates in a magic-rich world. As magic evolves and progresses, so too should technology advance. Advanced tools would negate the need for magical assistance. Technology frees magic from doing mundane things that a skilled worker or device could do, and lets mages work on more important feats that only magic could accomplish. Bob the farmer has a wide field to harvest. He could ask the neighborhood mage to help, but the neighborhood mage is busy and has other, more important things to do. So much for magic then. Bob could ask his neighbors for help, but they've got their own businesses to attend to. Poor Bob, guess he has to harvest his crops alone. But wait! Bob just remembered that he bought a Harvesting Machine a few months back. Hooray for technology! Now Bob has all the help he needs to harvest his crops and deliver them to the market on time. Thanks technology!
Not everyone has a magic-user in their pocket. |
| Razz |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 04:33:28
Doesn't Eberron already do the magi-tech thing? I mean...they have a magically animated and elemental bound railway system in one of the cities.
I am surprised at how extremely high in magic Forgotten Realms is and yet we don't see magi-tech on the level of, let's say, Final Fantasy 12. Now, there's that whole "the gods are preventing it from happening" story and the "Gond is preventing widespread knowledge of it but also paradoxically promoting it". What confuses me is the servants, and all of Lantan, are trying to make these things without magic...but Gond makes use of magic in such designs and his servants do through divine magic, too.
And then there's the Gnome Artificer prestige class in Magic of Faerun that specifically points out the devices crafted are nonmagical, but some of the items do require magic to function. Specifically shadow magic as it pulls the "shadowstuff" and forms the effect into a kind of proto-realistic effect or whatever some such mumbo jumbo.
So I am all lost and confused when it comes to tech in FR, magical or nonmagical. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 04:13:03
quote:
First... regime change in the country on the other side, and the new regime is hostile to your own. Now, you've just put an enemy on your front doorstep that never would have been there. Second... some pain in the butt wizard develops a spell to temporarily shunt the other side of the portal to somewhere else that's filled with nasty-bads. Now, you've just put an enemy on your front doorstep that never would have been there.
These could both be countered, theoretically, by simply shutting down your side of the portal, either destroying it or moving it a long way away. Installing a rapid-transit system without a safety feature like that sounds (to me) as if you're just begging to have it messed with, so you really deserve everything you get in that case.
As a note on the Stargate comparison, I would like to point out that getting those particular gates activated (without a DHD) required an immense power source. And the ones with a DHD more or less ran on "applied phlebotinum" with regard to activating them. It wasn't difficult at all to shut them down as a result (remove the control crystal, and it was game over). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 01:09:53
Here's the way I see it, and bear with me. People always think of the positive effects of these types of things, but then there always has to be a pessimist that needs to point out the bad things that could happen as a result. So, your city builds a permanent magical portal which can transport large amounts of individuals across... possibly even armies. The two countries on either end are friendly with one another, so it won't be a problem... right? Well, lets throw out the scenarios that spin this into a problem. First... regime change in the country on the other side, and the new regime is hostile to your own. Now, you've just put an enemy on your front doorstep that never would have been there. Second... some pain in the butt wizard develops a spell to temporarily shunt the other side of the portal to somewhere else that's filled with nasty-bads. Now, you've just put an enemy on your front doorstep that never would have been there. Third... similiar to the second... some pain in the butt wizard temporarily shunts the other side of the portal to the path of a flow of magma, in the path of a tidal wave, just in front of a hurricane, atthe bottom of the ocean, etc.... Now you've got some nasty elemental type effect that your soldiers can't stop pouring through. Fourth... unknown to the people viewing the portal, someone has setup a contingent effect on the portal which is transporting these individuals to a hidden cage instead... then doppelgangers take on the visual shape of these individuals and use a portal they've linked to the other side to hide the fact that people didn't come through. They randomly perform this, such that the watch has a hard time linking what's happening with people.
These are the reasons I don't see portal networks being trusted enough for the common populace to necessarily trust them except in extreme cases where security is strong enough. There just aren't enough controls in place in Faerun for people to provide that much trust in something that well known and visible. However, there is at least one instance of cities connected by portal (look at Shaundalar and the Arkaiuns). In the instances you provide, while I can see Silverymoon being trusted by Waterdeep enough to form such a portal... I don't necessarily see the reverse (Waterdeep isn't all that secure, and I wouldn't necessarily won't its problems on MY doorstep as a ruler). I definitely can't see Athkatla and Suzail.
Now, could I see small scale portals springing up (that can be used say once a day, allowing small transports of people), but massive such gates... not so much. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 01:06:28
Thanks so far for the replies.
I was thinking a one-at-a-time situation, sort of like how people are 'processed' in Terra Nova - a TV program where individuals are sent through a Gate back in time. Basically, you are searched, given a physical, all your papers have to be in order, yadda, yadda, yadda. In other words, make the system as safe and reliable as possible. For instance, anyone suspected of being a Zhent agent doesn't get to 'ride' (and there would be random mind-screening as well).
I wouldn't want trade to be carried out this way - perhaps make it have a 300 lb. weight limit, and also size restraints (so you couldn't shove a zeppelin through it, even though it doesn't have 'weight'). Basically just a means of travel, for a person and some small personal items (like a person traveling by plane with a carry-on). It wouldn't be continuous - it would be one person at a time, just like a teleport spell, only point-to-point.
It would also be VERY expensive, so only the wealthy (including successful adventurers) would bother with it. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 20:32:40
I think it would largely depend on how the gate works - how many people can traverse through the portal at once, what the side effects of portal travel are, how much the distance between the portals affects the traveller and the 'travel stream' (as it were), and so on.
I would never allow a 'Stargate'-style portal...something that allows continuous travel so long as the portal is open. That, as Dazzlerdal said, is just begging for an armed military force to march through.
Rather, a portal where the traveller steps onto a designated 'platform', presses a series of runes (or moves some glittering stones around, or whatever) in a pre-arranged pattern, waits ten seconds, and then *POP*, arrives at their destination, waits a few moments to re-orient themselves, then stepping off the platform as the magical energies slowly dissipate. A Star Trek - like 'transporter' effect, if you will.
Even caravans could travel in this manner: Travel to the portal site, unhitch the wagons, transport them, re-hitch them to animals waiting on the other end (assuming you don't just transport the draft animals - my opinion is that it would be cheaper to have stabled animals on either end). What the caravan spends in transport fees is more than likely to be made up by savings on animal feed, guards, supplies for the trip, wear and tear, and so on. And it goes without saying that the 'espionage potential' this affords is near-limitless, without the chance of a fully armed invasion (at least an overt one).
- OMH |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 20:09:27
I think there is a reason why a series of Gates to major cities across Faerun hasnt been done before and that is because it is too dangerous.
Im sure one of the Drow settlements (made up of several cities linked by gates) has this implemented in a fashion but had to come up with an intricate series of safeguards and controls to prevent someone just walking an army through the gate and conquering the city from within. And that is a group of likeminded individuals with a common background, religion, race etc.
Imagine the mistrust and fear that would surround having a proposal to build a gate in your city that is linked to say the Moonsea, those bunch of evil Bane loving Zhents would wander right through and kill everyone.
Im not saying it wont happen but i imagine it would cause widespread rioting among the general populace especially if (more like when) something bad happened that was linked to the gate.
Much like in the real world, new technology isnt trusted until it is proven to work safely. Can you imagine what the reaction would be to someone suddenly introducing a matter transportation device in the real world. Almost no one would use it for fear of being disassembled and it failing to reassemble you in the correct manner. It would take many years of safe travel before it would be accepted. Now imagine that someone suggested building a massive one in say London or New York that could transport hundreds of people at the same time with all their stuff, but the opposite end was linked to Russia, or China, or Iraq.
The simple answer is people (im talking humans here) are irrational frightened lunatics until someone proves to them that there is nothing to be afraid of, so any tech is too much tech until it has been proven time and time again that it is safe and nothing to be scared of. |
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