| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dracandos the Spellsage |
Posted - 12 Jan 2004 : 21:44:54
somethin about achieveing elven Godhood, the elven circle of the divine? idk some1 explain what they know of it, cuz as u can c, idk much. thanks |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 03:23:15
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
This type of thing is being handled already -- I'm putting together a new FR FAQ for Candlekeep that covers such topics (especially those that seem to pop up every so often). When it's done it'll simply be a matter of directing scribes to the new FAQ rather than re-hashing what's already been said.
Or invoke a discussion about what the FAQ says. Do as you will. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 01:13:58
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Perhaps a poll here at candlekeep might show a different result. OTOH starting such a poll might not be desired and results can be an unscientific one.
And it may generate more aggressive defense from scribes on certain viewpoints.
I'd leave it here in this scroll.
quote:
There is no way to actually determine if a voter is truely a fan and might refuel the debate.
Well, until it's officially claimed otherwise, in other words WotC countering what Ed has said in reference to female only clerics for Eilistraee, that's what I'm going with.
quote:
I am trying not to rehash what has been discussedbefore on the pros and cons or what ED has actually said and not said.
Aye, I see that.
quote:
Though perhaps it might be useful to write an FAQ stating all the discussion points that have been raised in prior discussions. Such as wearing gowns, Sword Dancers and so on. The question does come up perhaps every 3 to 6 months. Perhaps between the two of us we could come up something that reflects the Pros and Cons of this debate.
This type of thing is being handled already -- I'm putting together a new FR FAQ for Candlekeep that covers such topics (especially those that seem to pop up every so often). When it's done it'll simply be a matter of directing scribes to the new FAQ rather than re-hashing what's already been said.
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| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 21:14:47
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Shouldn`t this alienate some male drow from her worship?: "Ah, finally we have escaped from the feminist gone bad regime of Lolth and into the kind worship of Eilistraee.....what do you mean, they don`t allow any males into the clergy here either? Screw this, I`m gonna worship Vhaeraun".
I think something like this could happen.
Oh indeed some male Drow might not like the idea that much, however Eilistraee society is much freer then either Lolthian or Vhaeraunian. Remember he does not have female Clerics (except the false Priestesses that pertend to serve Lolth). Vhaeraun has also very few female followers.
No if a male likes girls in Eilistraee society he stands a good chance of having one or more each day that he (with her agreement) can select. There are other advantages as well of being an Eilistraeeian, there are less rules as to conduct. It is a free society as long as one does no harm.
Lolthian a male is victum of harm on a daily basics.
Vhaeraunian society, one is pledge to put themselves in harms way if another follower is in danger. The rules are harsher then Eilistraee's.
One thing to remember Eilistraee Clerics are loosely organised, they make up a lot of their own rules as long as it does not go against the Dogma. They can share power with males without a problem at all. Some Eilistraee communities could be ruled by males, with of course a council of advisors (which likely would consit of some, many if not all Clerics) to guide the community. Rank in Eilistraee society can be gained without backstabing somebody else and always being worried about being backstabed. Both followers of Lolth and Vhaeraun have to worry about being backstabed.
Some clearly will reject the message of "Come in Peace" because there is a female Cleric only rule, but those that reject the message in general have to select a path of Evil (unless selecting either a deity of the "fair elves" or another good deity) that they sought to escape.
I do not see it as a major problem if a male being rescued by Eilistraee Drow acepting a female Cleric rule, because of the other benefits that do come with living in such a community.
Depending on source males and females are equal or near equal in Eilistraee communities, this clearly can not be said for Lolth communities, Vhaeraun communities does claim to be striving for equality as well however I have not seen much of it there because of the backstab a tool of the trade if somebody gets upset. |
| khorne |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 20:38:30
Shouldn`t this alienate some male drow from her worship?: "Ah, finally we have escaped from the feminist gone bad regime of Lolth and into the kind worship of Eilistraee.....what do you mean, they don`t allow any males into the clergy here either? Screw this, I`m gonna worship Vhaeraun".
I think something like this could happen. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 17:37:50
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
And 3rd, as a fan of that deity and her family, who has expanded on her worship and family, I guess I'm one of the ones that don't believe she should have male clerics, so that assumption that most of her fans believe that, isn't true.
most /= all , however let be expand most fans of Eilistraee I know do believe Eilistraee would allow male Clerics, not all of them. Perhaps a poll here at candlekeep might show a different result. OTOH starting such a poll might not be desired and results can be an unscientific one.
There is no way to actually determine if a voter is truely a fan and might refuel the debate.
I am trying not to rehash what has been discussedbefore on the pros and cons or what ED has actually said and not said.
Though perhaps it might be useful to write an FAQ stating all the discussion points that have been raised in prior discussions. Such as wearing gowns, Sword Dancers and so on. The question does come up perhaps every 3 to 6 months. Perhaps between the two of us we could come up something that reflects the Pros and Cons of this debate. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 17:26:52
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And we have 3e/3.5e sourcebook that carries a definitive explanation for why male clerics are allowed.
*blink* Do you mean in reference to elves in general (if so I said a long time ago perhaps before Lolth got her male Clerics, that currently male Cllerics clearly are permitted now? |
| Kuje |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 17:26:09
And 3rd, as a fan of that deity and her family, who has expanded on her worship and family, I guess I'm one of the ones that don't believe she should have male clerics, so that assumption that most of her fans believe that, isn't true.
Especially because Ed said she has female only clerics, DD says that, Drow of the Underdark says that, Faiths & Pantheons implies it unless the male clerics wear gazy gowns, which is possible, but it's unlikely that ALL of them do. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 17:06:48
Furthermore... it should be noted that Demihuman Deities confirms that Eilistraee has ONLY female clerics. And thus, there is no potential for conflict with F&P because it's not stated, inside the 3e deity book, that she has male clerics.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 17:04:16
Ed doesn't need to put "male" terms in the lore for Eilistraee because he created her and thus he knows what her clerics are. He's said they are female. Priestesses, with silver gowns.
I don't really think we need more proof. Eilistraee has female clerics and that's pretty much it. Ed's said it and his words, as the creator of the deity in question, should be enough. You really can't look to the entry in 3e Faiths & Pantheons as a proper reference because there's significantly more justification that the clerics of Eilistraee are female moreso than male in the lore.
And we have 3e/3.5e sourcebook that carries a definitive explanation for why male clerics are allowed.
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| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 16:03:48
quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
Does anyone know why Elistraee only accepts females as priests? One would think that this would discourage male drow from her service, pushing them into the greedy arms of Vhaerun...
I missed this before.
There is no clear answer to this and some followers of Eilistraee believe the male restriction is an error.
Posible in game reasons to justify the rule are.
1) At one point in time it was said the Clerics of the "fair elves" all were femate, no males allowed (however that was a long time ago as others deities now have male Clerics, so not a very good reason but Eilistraee might be a traditionalist).
2) One assepect of Eilistraee is the role of mother to the Drow, thus females only can be mothers to the Drow and lead and nuture followers. No male really makes a good mother.
3) Because Eilistraee is female she relates well with only females when granting Clerics spells.
4) Males do not have the grace and beaty enough to qualify to be a Cleric (This one clearly debatable as some males clearly cound be considered beautiful, though most might be descriped handsome if fair to look on).
5) Most followers are still Drow and for thousands of years have lived in a culture of mostly female Clerics (er, in 2nd and earilier Lolth did have some male Clerics, however never allowed them to gain high level, 3rd edition killed off all Lolth male Clerics [or turned them into females], and leaders it would thus be hard for followers to adapt to the idea of a male Cleric.
Posible out of game reasons:
1) The idea of dancing naked males was an image somebody at TSR or ED did not want to promote.
2) Drow, in 3rd at least, favored class for Drow females is Cleric.
3) Tradition first enty said female only (this does not hold well, because Lolth lost her male Clerics).
I do know most followers/fans of Eilistraee believe the female only restriction should not exist and many house rule that there can be rarely male Clerics of the Dark Maiden. Also from time to time a question come up if 3rd now allowys males because of a novel that indicates a Priest of Eilistraee was killed. The actual line read something like "he was killed" hardly deffinitive for the nay sayers. The Cleric wa not named just killed. Thus the he might have slipped past the editors. Or the author intended to wrire she intead of he or did not know the female rule.
There is no reason to debate the issue, both sides of the debate are rather sure of the points of aguments and niether side likely will change their mind on the issue by anything fans write here.
The question has been put to Ed and a few others already with out recieving a clear Yes or No answer. Ed's replies often do refer to female Clerics when discussing Eilistraee which some nay sayers take to mean all must be famales.
Nay sayers is that balanced enough to reflect the status of the Eilistraee Cleric debate or did I miss something? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 15:20:11
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020503a does not speak to the issue, however 2nd offers:
quote:
After Eilistraee nearly slew her father with an arrow during a great battle between the Seldarine and a host of evil deities bent on conquering Arvandor, the Dark Maiden forswore the use of ranged weapons (although she permits them to her followers).
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| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 15:11:23
I would be very interested to hear the answer to this question.  |
| Elven Avenger |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 14:57:43
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Quote by Naroon:
Elistraee was the best archer in the old seldarin, when Aurunshee attacked Corellon she tried to shoot an arrow at her, i think one of Aurunshees allies cast an spell on the arrow and the arrow hit Corellon, this is why Bow is a forbidden weapon for the Elistrae worshipers.
Is that sure? I thought Eilistraee never used a bow again since that day she shoot Corellon but I did not know that she would make the use of weapon forbidden even for her followers. Is that right, I mean in the rule thing? (Just questioning because I've already seen eilistraee worshipers even cleric ones using longbows as ranged weapon..) |
| darkflame millithor |
Posted - 14 May 2006 : 23:37:10
Tell them again,shadow lord!And for the record The Dancing Strumpet and the Sly Savage weren't exiled to the abyss with lolth .They were exiled to the prime .That's why Lolth had to stea..Claim their followers..And seize the hearts of the drow. The savage and Strumpet warred for thousands of years with each other before LOlth manifested .The eye is an Idiot who destroyed his own base of power (he used to have the power to head the DarkSeldarine, |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 00:59:37
Eh, you surfacers are too assuming. There is no "typical" drow answer, and I quote, "Where drow are concerned, its not safe to assume anything." by Liriel Baenre. |
| Dracandos the Spellsage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 00:52:36
hmm isnt that a drow answer. lol |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 20:31:29
It works for me..... The more Vhaeraunite, the more power for the Masked Lord. |
| lowtech |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 18:08:39
Does anyone know why Elistraee only accepts females as priests? One would think that this would discourage male drow from her service, pushing them into the greedy arms of Vhaerun... |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 19 Jan 2004 : 19:45:48
You're welcome. I have more should you ever need it...... |
| Dracandos the Spellsage |
Posted - 19 Jan 2004 : 19:34:41
Thanks 4 the link Shadowlord, some good stuff |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 18 Jan 2004 : 15:40:23
No problem. This details the Seldarine quite thuroughly(sp?). Mind you, it is not entirely accurate, but you know what happens......
http://www.fantaseum.com/stories/showstory.asp?rec_id=9 |
| Dracandos the Spellsage |
Posted - 14 Jan 2004 : 19:37:33
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Hmmm, actually, i have a link that goes into great detail about the seldarine.....contact me if interested.....
sure post it, thanks! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Jan 2004 : 09:27:11
An interesting online resource for the Elven pantheon can be found at Myth-Drannor.net. It is in the section labeled "Tel' Seldarine".
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| Shadowlord |
Posted - 14 Jan 2004 : 02:34:02
Hmmm, actually, i have a link that goes into great detail about the seldarine.....contact me if interested..... |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 14 Jan 2004 : 02:32:58
No thanks necessary, my good man, just doing our duty...... |
| Dracandos the Spellsage |
Posted - 14 Jan 2004 : 02:28:52
ah thank u scribes, i knew it was the elven pantheon but i wished 2 know more (as always) my thanks |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 21:43:51
Shadowlord sends his icy glare towards Ezindir
Why, whatever do you mean???  |
| Ezindir the dark |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 21:26:37
Hey.. dont look at me in that way, I was just courius. |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 21:06:37
Yes, she is, and shes worshipped by all types of elves, not just avariel..... |
| Ezindir the dark |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 21:05:04
I'l post a question here, I am pretty sure about this but whant to make sure: Is the avariel godess Aerdrie Faenya is one of the Seldarine, right? |
