| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 18:45:04
So I didn't come here to argue about 5e product potential... and yet I let it happen anyway.. I came here to post the nice piece of art that WOTC showed at gencon. It's just a screen cap from the video they showed but I still liked it and thought I'd share until they do an official release...
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/heroeskw.jpg/ |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 May 2014 : 15:15:02
quote:
Originally posted by Laduger
Yeah, I like my tieflings and genasi to have the old 3E look where they have a mostly human appearance with subtle features of their heritage.
[/quote]
This is explained in the Brimstone Angels series (last one being "The Adversary" sundering book 3). When Asmodeus became a god, he laid claim to all the tieflings and even the 'older' ones took on more of his appearance.
[/quote]
It doesn't explain the genasi. I too preferred them being less immediately visible as "different". |
| Laduger |
Posted - 26 May 2014 : 02:49:51
[/quote]
Yeah, I like my tieflings and genasi to have the old 3E look where they have a mostly human appearance with subtle features of their heritage.
[/quote]
This is explained in the Brimstone Angels series (last one being "The Adversary" sundering book 3). When Asmodeus became a god, he laid claim to all the tieflings and even the 'older' ones took on more of his appearance. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 06 Aug 2013 : 00:49:45
Hmmm purple, female, some sort of magic caster...way in the background so not a main character most likely. She is the rose of sarifiel *snickers* |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 06 Aug 2013 : 00:18:22
Did we ever find out who's hiding under the hoody? |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 16:58:32
Some discussion from artist Tyler Jacobson about how he made the piece. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 23:45:58
Really? I always like the way Monte thinks.
It makes sense for a lot of the classical mythology/folklore races (since there are massive shifts in power in their descriptions). Humans evolve as a race, but perhaps non-humans evolve as individuals? Then when you add-in 'bloodlines' humans can do a little of this too. IIRC, thats how sorcerers came about.
And the more I think on this, I think 3e really did try to go this route a bit, but people just didn't take to it (those NPC classes in the DMG). If they spruced-up some of those NPC classes, there is no reason why they couldn't be used in a similar fashion as the racial levels (like a level 5 farmer, or level 9 merchant). Even the barbarian class is an example of this (unless someone wants to tell me how someone gets a job as a barbarian? I haven't seen that come up in the want-ads). |
| Matt James |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 23:41:54
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved/Land of the Diamond Throne had racial levels as well as class levels.
Richard beat me to it! |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 23:32:17
Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved/Land of the Diamond Throne had racial levels as well as class levels. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 22:23:10
Not really the appropriate thread, but since we are on the subject...
Running with Caolin's comment, maybe the entire concept of 'jobs' is a human one? An elf is an elf - he/she has a thousand years to become good at everything they need to be good at. A dwarf has 400 years. I think halflings even get something around 200. The men hunt, and fish, and craft weapons. The females plant, and sew, and cook, etc. Exceptions exist on both sides, but basically there are two major roles that everyone simply falls into (Elves probably don't even have the two).
Then humans come along, and they don't have as long to live. In fact, in 'olden times', living to 40 was quite a feat. Humans learned early they need to specialize. 'Bob' was amazingly good at sharpening spears, so instead of going hunting with everyone else, he stayed home and sharpened everyone's spears. 'Jane' burned the cornmeal too much, but she was really great at sewing. She told everyone else that she'd do most of the sewing if she didn't have to cook. And so on, and so forth.
If we say that this is a human convention - one picked-up over time by other races (especially halflings), then the normal sort of leveling becomes a human thing (and as I said earlier, this really harkens back to OD&D). 'citified' (cosmopolitan) elves, dwarves, halflings, etc (even humanoids) would work and act like humans, but the more 'countrified' (rural) varieties would behave in a more classic, traditional (folklore/mythological) manner. Thus, only PC's (and the special NPC) would have class levels. Out in the field, everything could be treated as 'monsters' (including primitive/savage/barbarian humans). Something like this might not only simplify the rules (and streamline play), but give PCs more choices (like I said earlier, compare this to the 'racial paragons' in the 3e optional rules). We already do this with most of the humanoid races (how many illithids have day-jobs?), so why not apply this to all non-humans moving forward?
If its not 'living in a human world', then an elf should be acting 'elfy', and a dwarf 'dwarfy', and an Orc 'orcy'. There should be a standard, non-PC progression for these races. Standardize what a level 4 dwarf (etc) should be, and it simplifies everything else. PC can then get a choice every level of continuing to grow 'in the human fashion', or "stay true to their roots". For example, drow can be given back most of their abilities with this sort of treatment (I did this in the Elven Netbook - created paragon paths for the drow).
I think this could work as both a story-element, and game mechanic. |
| ErinMEvans |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 21:19:53
LastStand, I hope you enjoy it! It just came up for reprints, so it should be reasonably easy to find (if you're getting a paperback).
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
That is the half of the explanation that is published. (This is what I hate about the businessy half of writing books. I'd love to just TELL you the rest. But it would spoil part of Lesser Evils and mean I broke my NDA. So it will have to wait.)
I will say I am a big proponent of the unreliable source and the fact that most people in the Realms don't know what's going on behind the curtain so to speak. So if you don't like my "descended from Asmodeus" explanation, well...why would you listen to devil gossip anyway?
HAH HAH! There is always some truth behind devil gossip. You know what they say, the best lies are always veiled in facts.
Indeed...(And now I'm veering dangerously close to talking myself into bending my NDA, so I shall retreat!). I love devil gossip. Devil intrigue. Devil power plays.
quote:
I went back and did a search through Brimstone Angles (I love this about eBooks btw). I remember putting the pieces together and I felt satisfied by the explanation. I actually really like it. Now what I would like to see is something similar show up in the novels to explain the vastly different genasi. I mean, I know that they came from Abeir. Maybe get a nod to the fact that the old style genasi still exist.
That is the feeling I always got from them. That the new style were Abeiran variants shaped by that world who simply exist in much greater numbers. Or maybe who have the same "genetic" dominance and bred into the native genasi populations (I imagine it could be nice to meet someone new who gets your weird, you know?). Plus, much like the tiefling, if you are the pre-4E style, you can probably slip under people's notice a lot more easily. If you're a subtle tiefling, that might be a pretty sweet deal you wouldn't want to ruin by waving your arms around and saying, "Wait! Wait! I'm a tiefling too!"
quote:
BTW, Markustay, I like what you said about race leveling. I think it would be a great system for NPC's.
Definitely a cool solution!
|
| Caolin |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 20:57:57
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
quote:
Funny you should mention the 'mysterious hooded figure' Erin - thats the very first one to jump out and grab me, and pique my interest. It was the only one in the lineup that I immediately thought, "Who is that? I want to know more!"
And is she mortal? 
She does have a certain je ne sais quoi. Like she's waiting for you to figure it all out, and when you do she'll be there waitin...
As for tieflings, I've said before part of my goal with Brimstone Angels and Lesser Evils was to explain what the heck happened to tieflings and to integrate the new ones into the Realms better. And that's a big part of Farideh's character. So, no, they're not going away.
BUT I've seen several iterations of the D&DNext tiefling and they do mean what they say about making as many people happy as possible (Which goes for me, too--my lore explanation's been adjusted now that they're opening things up).
Ah yes, I forgot about that. It's that those particular tieflings are the spawn of Asmodeus and his blood is very dominate which explains their enhanced features. Am I remembering that correctly?
That is the half of the explanation that is published. (This is what I hate about the businessy half of writing books. I'd love to just TELL you the rest. But it would spoil part of Lesser Evils and mean I broke my NDA. So it will have to wait.)
I will say I am a big proponent of the unreliable source and the fact that most people in the Realms don't know what's going on behind the curtain so to speak. So if you don't like my "descended from Asmodeus" explanation, well...why would you listen to devil gossip anyway?
HAH HAH! There is always some truth behind devil gossip. You know what they say, the best lies are always veiled in facts. I went back and did a search through Brimstone Angles (I love this about eBooks btw). I remember putting the pieces together and I felt satisfied by the explanation. I actually really like it. Now what I would like to see is something similar show up in the novels to explain the vastly different genasi. I mean, I know that they came from Abeir. Maybe get a nod to the fact that the old style genasi still exist.
BTW, Markustay, I like what you said about race leveling. I think it would be a great system for NPC's. |
| LastStand |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 19:13:30
Love the art! Alas no one can name the mysterious hooded figure - she was the first to catch my eye. I've been trying to place her in a novel, but it seems that she has not featured yet then.
I'm very much looking forward to the upcoming novels.
On a side note: I've only been hearing good things about Brimstone Angels. I will be getting my hands on a copy soon! |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 18:48:42
It's my hope Storm gets her singing voice back in one o' these Sundering novels.
Count me interested because she's in the lineup of awesome for this series. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 18:38:28
Assuming all the stars line up on this, a forthcoming DDI article of mine may shed a little more light on the tiefling question. But let it be known that Erin's explanation for the tiefling appearance in 4e is sacrosanct as far as my work is concerned.
Cheers
|
| ErinMEvans |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 18:14:30
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
quote:
Funny you should mention the 'mysterious hooded figure' Erin - thats the very first one to jump out and grab me, and pique my interest. It was the only one in the lineup that I immediately thought, "Who is that? I want to know more!"
And is she mortal?
She does have a certain je ne sais quoi. Like she's waiting for you to figure it all out, and when you do she'll be there waitin...
As for tieflings, I've said before part of my goal with Brimstone Angels and Lesser Evils was to explain what the heck happened to tieflings and to integrate the new ones into the Realms better. And that's a big part of Farideh's character. So, no, they're not going away.
BUT I've seen several iterations of the D&DNext tiefling and they do mean what they say about making as many people happy as possible (Which goes for me, too--my lore explanation's been adjusted now that they're opening things up).
Ah yes, I forgot about that. It's that those particular tieflings are the spawn of Asmodeus and his blood is very dominate which explains their enhanced features. Am I remembering that correctly?
That is the half of the explanation that is published. (This is what I hate about the businessy half of writing books. I'd love to just TELL you the rest. But it would spoil part of Lesser Evils and mean I broke my NDA. So it will have to wait.)
I will say I am a big proponent of the unreliable source and the fact that most people in the Realms don't know what's going on behind the curtain so to speak. So if you don't like my "descended from Asmodeus" explanation, well...why would you listen to devil gossip anyway? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 18:06:30
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I hope they use both 4E and 3E styles of Tieflings. I've been a pretty avid person about the art works of 4E and even though it's different than older versions, it doesn't necessarily mean those older looks are invalid. Genasi can look like the ones from Races of Faerun or the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide. It's up to the player (and author) to decide, not some hard-grained element within the setting that needs justification (though I'm happy Erin is attempting to try!).
Actually, I was thinking that instead of 'fudging' things so everything from every era was acceptable, they could use the differences.
Remember the concept introduced in Savage Species? What if beings could choose between leveling in their class, or leveling in their race? This would also work similar to how the tier system worked in 4e.
Ergo, your garden-variety 'lev 1' Genasi of Tiefling would look very much like the old-school ones. Then, as they level in their race (if they choose this path), they become less and less human looking. So, if you meet a tiefling that looks truly demonic, expect it to have some demonic abilities. If you meet a normal looking human who happens to have a tiny pair of horns hidden under his hat (or helmet, or turban, etc), then you can expect them to be pretty-much human.
This is an approach that is very similar to how Sorcerers were handled under the PF rules - you can choose to 'embrace your bloodline' (actually, I might be thinking of some of 3e's optional rules). Its also along the lines of how the VG Fable worked - your appearance (and abilities) changed depending upon choices you made during the course of the game.
We don't need to choose between the lore, we just need to mesh it all together, and maybe... just maybe... come up with something that is greater then the sum of its parts. This same approach can be used on dragonborn - you could have the regular ones, and it could also be a path half-dragons can choose to take. Genasi, Undead, lycanthropes & shifters, giants, etc - even things like elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings (which harkens back to OD&D) could all utilize this approach. It also uses a bit of the optional 'racial paragon' rules from 3e.
And at the same time, DMs can choose to ignore the racial leveling if they don't want it in their games, and just say different tielfings look differently.
|
| ErinMEvans |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 17:51:28
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
I think I can do...most of the roster (We ID'd them at the second Sundering panel, so I assume that its not a secret :p). Some of them are new, so probably won't mean much.
Left to right, we have Storm Silverhand, Dahl Peredur, Farideh (both mine), Erevis Cale, Vasen Cale, ...mysterious hooded figure, Drizzt, El, Princess Arietta, Kleef Kenric (both Troy's), Anton, Umara, and Stedd (as Richard identified), then Riven and Malik. (I hope I spelled all those right)
I hope they put the art up somewhere, too. It's really gorgeous.
Can someone point out to me the books where the characters I have bolded can be found? I have a year to catch up on the Forgotten Realms books I missed so that I can be familiar with most of the players in the Sundering series.
I'm sure some characters are only FOR the Sundering, but are any of the ones I outlined in BOLD in currently published books?
I think both of Troy Denning's characters are unique to the sundering, but I could be mistaken.
Farideh appears first in Brimstone Angels, which is currently available in paperback and ebook, and reappears in Brimstone Angels: Lesser Evils with Dahl. That one will be available in both formats at the beginning of December. A lot of the characters there will recur in The Adversary.
If it helps, Lesser Evils is thematically tied to Rise of the Zhentarim, if you know what I mean.
(I mean Zhentarim. And Harpers.  ) |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 17:36:04
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Mournblade: I don't know that they'e turned the full-color version into a print yet. If not, then alas, even authors can't score one.
Well they better give it to you when they do! The realms would not be popular without you guys.
|
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 15:09:12
Mournblade: I don't know that they'e turned the full-color version into a print yet. If not, then alas, even authors can't score one. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 09:26:31
I figured that the "Mysterious Hooded one" was THO! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 07:50:48
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
I think I can do...most of the roster (We ID'd them at the second Sundering panel, so I assume that its not a secret :p). Some of them are new, so probably won't mean much.
Left to right, we have Storm Silverhand, Dahl Peredur, Farideh (both mine), Erevis Cale, Vasen Cale, ...mysterious hooded figure, Drizzt, El, Princess Arietta, Kleef Kenric (both Troy's), Anton, Umara, and Stedd (as Richard identified), then Riven and Malik. (I hope I spelled all those right)
Can someone point out to me the books where the characters I have bolded can be found?
Anton, Umara, and Stedd must be new, and will appear for the first time in The Reaver.
Riven is a prominent character in The Erevis Cale trilogy and The Twilight War trilogy by PSK. Enemy-turned-bestfriend of Cale. An assassin who loves dogs. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 07:45:13
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
quote:
Funny you should mention the 'mysterious hooded figure' Erin - thats the very first one to jump out and grab me, and pique my interest. It was the only one in the lineup that I immediately thought, "Who is that? I want to know more!"
And is she mortal?
She does have a certain je ne sais quoi. Like she's waiting for you to figure it all out, and when you do she'll be there waitin...
As for tieflings, I've said before part of my goal with Brimstone Angels and Lesser Evils was to explain what the heck happened to tieflings and to integrate the new ones into the Realms better. And that's a big part of Farideh's character. So, no, they're not going away.
BUT I've seen several iterations of the D&DNext tiefling and they do mean what they say about making as many people happy as possible (Which goes for me, too--my lore explanation's been adjusted now that they're opening things up).
Ah yes, I forgot about that. It's that those particular tieflings are the spawn of Asmodeus and his blood is very dominate which explains their enhanced features. Am I remembering that correctly? |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 07:33:56
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
I think I can do...most of the roster (We ID'd them at the second Sundering panel, so I assume that its not a secret :p). Some of them are new, so probably won't mean much.
Left to right, we have Storm Silverhand, Dahl Peredur, Farideh (both mine), Erevis Cale, Vasen Cale, ...mysterious hooded figure, Drizzt, El, Princess Arietta, Kleef Kenric (both Troy's), Anton, Umara, and Stedd (as Richard identified), then Riven and Malik. (I hope I spelled all those right)
I hope they put the art up somewhere, too. It's really gorgeous.
Can someone point out to me the books where the characters I have bolded can be found? I have a year to catch up on the Forgotten Realms books I missed so that I can be familiar with most of the players in the Sundering series.
I'm sure some characters are only FOR the Sundering, but are any of the ones I outlined in BOLD in currently published books?
I think both of Troy Denning's characters are unique to the sundering, but I could be mistaken.
|
| Mournblade |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 07:27:23
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Gorgeous, isn't it? I came home with one of the black-and-whites but would love the full-color version complete with background. Maybe they'll give those away next year.
Wait...
Since your one of the authors can't they just GIVE you one now? I mean you are helping to make it a reality.
|
| Mournblade |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 07:26:17
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I hope they're not keeping the 4e tiefling appearance.
The boy looks like a girl.
Please bring the planescape tiefling back.
|
| Diffan |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 02:13:16
I hope they use both 4E and 3E styles of Tieflings. I've been a pretty avid person about the art works of 4E and even though it's different than older versions, it doesn't necessarily mean those older looks are invalid. Genasi can look like the ones from Races of Faerun or the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide. It's up to the player (and author) to decide, not some hard-grained element within the setting that needs justification (though I'm happy Erin is attempting to try!). |
| ErinMEvans |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 23:06:34
quote:
Funny you should mention the 'mysterious hooded figure' Erin - thats the very first one to jump out and grab me, and pique my interest. It was the only one in the lineup that I immediately thought, "Who is that? I want to know more!"
And is she mortal?
She does have a certain je ne sais quoi. Like she's waiting for you to figure it all out, and when you do she'll be there waitin...
As for tieflings, I've said before part of my goal with Brimstone Angels and Lesser Evils was to explain what the heck happened to tieflings and to integrate the new ones into the Realms better. And that's a big part of Farideh's character. So, no, they're not going away.
BUT I've seen several iterations of the D&DNext tiefling and they do mean what they say about making as many people happy as possible (Which goes for me, too--my lore explanation's been adjusted now that they're opening things up). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 20:02:12
They never got rid of the 'old style' - the 4e ones are just one particular group that developed into a sub-race in their own right. 4e just liked to focus on the new ones. They aren't going anywhere (as Erin's character attests to). Same goes for Genasi - the ones in the novels don't have to be the ones focused on at your game table.
Funny you should mention the 'mysterious hooded figure' Erin - thats the very first one to jump out and grab me, and pique my interest. It was the only one in the lineup that I immediately thought, "Who is that? I want to know more!"
And is she mortal? |
| Caolin |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 19:44:56
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I hope they're not keeping the 4e tiefling appearance.
The boy looks like a girl.
Yeah, I like my tieflings and genasi to have the old 3E look where they have a mostly human appearance with subtle features of their heritage. |
| Quale |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 09:40:38
I hope they're not keeping the 4e tiefling appearance.
The boy looks like a girl.
|
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