| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 31 Jul 2012 : 03:28:17
I mean with her notorious conflicts versus Thay one would think they must has crossed paths atleast once. Not sure if at the height of her power she could have taken him on his home turf, otherwise wouldn't she had done so? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 21:41:53
Necromancy for Szass Tam is just a tool, so as the other schools of magic he mastered. He even feels disgusted with undeath, with his own undead state. But he recognizes how powerful a tool it is for his end goal, so he endures... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 19:39:15
*meh*
Sounds a bit too Lovecraftian, IMHO.
However, that thought made me realize something. Necromancy isn't about death at all - its about life. I know the CBoN kinda touched on that subject, but now I'm thinking its more then just either/or. Necromancy actually couldn't exist without life - it feeds off of it.
So Defiling and Preserving don't really do different things, its more a matter of one being frugal with one's resources, and using them in a gentle and non-destructive manner, and the other simply not caring and sucking-out everything around them. Both still utilize the same power-source.
That makes me need to re-think quite a few things. Even though that isn't FR, I feel it does relate to the setting as Ed intended it (IMO). |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 19:06:27
On the contrary, no. Defilers...defile the land, plants, and creatures around them; siphoning off life itself. What Szass Tam wants is the opposite. He thinks the whole world is unclean, him included. He wants to rid the world of impurities, of life and undeath. So he plans to 'renew' it, killing everything, everyone, every deity, making a new form of life, a new world, a new universe. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 16:41:25
Hmph... "...eliminate all the gods".
Thats what happened on Athas. You now, the more I think about it, the more its sounds like Szass Tam has learned how to be a Defiler. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 08:51:34
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
It's about time larloch squished this tam chappie.
Like a bug.
Or Larloch finds him amusing in a quaint sorta way...
Nah. He's busy squishing another insect.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: come to think of it, why hasn't the Dark Powers taken Szass Tam and Thay into the Domains of Dread? You would think they would have, after he cast that ritual. Maybe Ravenloft didn't want to get 'infected' (after all, Toril's got 'the plague')?
Because likely they think Szass Tam is a one mad lich whose ambition is doomed to fail.
I don't underestimate Szass Tam, but I seriously doubt the Ritual of Unmaking would nuke the whole planet, let alone eliminate all the gods. However, I believe that such vast, concentrated amount of magical energy can nuke a considerable portion of Faerun, IF cast successfully. The Dark Powers don't mind getting some cities burned and some people killed, as long as it's not all of them. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 08:32:41
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
It's about time larloch squished this tam chappie.
Like a bug.
Or Larloch finds him amusing in a quaint sorta way... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 06:24:03
So Szass Tam is to Dread Rings what Donald trump is to hotels?
I guess I wasn't far off at all with my take on him in the 'MTV Realms' thread.
On a serious note, wouldn't that mean that the next time he performs his little ritual, he will be extinguishing the entire planet? It will be like Threnody all over again (except with lots of races, not just dark elves).
They should stick Threnody in the Shadowfel, or at least part of it. Hell, they should make it a Domain in Ravenloft.
EDIT: come to think of it, why hasn't the Dark Powers taken Szass Tam and Thay into the Domains of Dread? You would think they would have, after he cast that ritual. Maybe Ravenloft didn't want to get 'infected' (after all, Toril's got 'the plague')? |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 03:28:07
We really don"t know how many different spots he is building Dread rings in now. This one in neverwinter might just be a small focus in a larger game. He might be building them in every corner of the world this time just in case it fails again so he can try in different spots |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 02:08:46
So Szass Tam leaves Aglarond and Rashemen virtually unharmed so that he could have a steady supply of living people which he can use to feed his undead and make more undead? Or more like a 'backup,' in case his own supply in Thay runs dry. Hmm...Not bad. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 19:19:04
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On the one hand, I think it might be more in-line with past canon to say he avoided doing his ritual (or taking-over) either of those places because of the nature deities (and obvious nature/life energies permeating the region). However, Thay always had trouble with Rashemen, so we really only need wonder about (post-Simbul) Aglarond.
So, on the other hand, I think destroying an area of nature/life energy would be the most powerful way to get a HUGE necrotic boost (similar to what happens when defilers on Athas 'do their thang'). This means Rashemen should still be a prime target (and probably is), but there has to be some other reason he didn't go balls-to-the-wall belligerent on Aglarond when the Simbul disappeared.
I would say 'something' (the power of the first Simbul?) is still protecting Aglarond, but that doesn't make much sense (because defeating such a power and turning its energies necrotic would be a major coupe). It only makes sense that the 'best' place to perform death-related rituals would be in places where there is much life (otherwise, whats the point?) I never read the series, so I'm not even sure what type of energy (it could have been Fiendish) Szass Tam was trying to obtain.
So here's my thinking - he never really liked Aglarond and Rashemen, but he did have hopes of eventually using those territories for his 'master plan' (which may have been something else originally, but evolved into the Dread-ring thing). Besides that, being at war with both constantly kept his Zulkirs busy and off his back (and allowed him to see their strengths, and how good they were at fighting and manipulation). So basically, although he did have some eventual goals in mind, most of that was just a great game he was playing while he laid his real plans.
Unfortunately, for whatever reason (like I said, I didn't read the series, nor intend to) he couldn't wait anymore for those lands. Perhaps he 'forsaw' the Spellplague and had to rush things (I believe there was something about that). Ergo, instead of using his enemies lands like he eventually hoped to do, he was forced to use his own kingdom to fuel his ritual (which of course, killed all his own people, which didn't really leave him much of a kingdom - hence why I say it seemed like a desperate tactic).
Now in the aftermath of all that, the ritual didn't work, he's got a dead country, and he doesn't bother to go after his ex-enemies... which I find immensely peculiar. Aglarond is ripe for the picking, and he goes off and starts messing-around in The North - Larloch's stomping-grounds? That doesn't make much sense at all.
Unless there is something beneath Aglarond he is wary of. Otherwise he need not go so far afield.
See my take on it is way more simple. Its similar to my views on why they never conquered Aglarond before the Zulkirship failed. When Thay was in its prime, they never truly focused a lot of energy on Aglarond because it made a good buffer state and a nice place to raid for slaves. After it turned undead, well those undead need live things to feed on..... Of course, canon lore may declare these things otherwise, but canon lore doesn't always see into the devious mind of evil. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 19:14:39
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Before the civil war, the largest portion of Thay's land was lush and verdant---teeming with life-magic. Vast amount of necromantic magics transformed it to its blighted state now. Same thing could happen to Aglarond and Rashemen if Szass Tam manages to penetrate them.
I think the original person should have phrased it differently. Thay was lush and verdant, but it was because of weather control and slave labor. Rashemen and Aglarond were filled with life due to very fey links in their wildlands and unusual elemental/spiritual engergies. Now, whether these energies would conflict with dread rings... can't say. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 17:24:25
It's about time larloch squished this tam chappie. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 13:55:05
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Thats not necessarily true. after all the living portion of his forces are all banites due to his bargain and so perhaps not having Banes backing could seriously weaken his hold on their loyalty.
Not all. And I don't think they matter that much. The necromancers loyal to him are many, and are enough to raise undead armies to repel any attack or to start a campaign outside Thay.
Besides, phranctoast has a point. Szass Tam may have told them something along this line, "You're all servants of Bane, but you are in my kingdom. Hence, you answer to me first and foremost. Otherwise, begone, or I'll kill you and animate your corpses to be part of my undead army."
This is of course a valid enough scenario but personally i believe that no matter the power of his necromancy, Tam stills needs a core of living supporters in the long run . This is because firstly the outside world already hates Thay, you need some living faces to show them if you are ever going to conduct any sort of negotiation. Also living spies and agents can enter places where the dead cannot.
Secondly to a long term thinker like him it should be obvious that the best way to replace losses through attrition is to have a steady supply of the living that you can reanimate. He has already exhausted the cemeteries of Thay and acts like the destruction of Neverwinter are only good for a temporary surge in his forces.
Now I am not saying the living component of his kingdom can easily overthrow him but it is also true that he needs them more than he lets on, breaking with Bane would make things needlessly complicated for him.
Oh, I'm not saying he does not need the living. In fact, he needs them almost as badly as he needs the undead. What I'm saying is they need not be Banites. There are many ways to repopulate Thay without involving the Banites. Buy or steal more slaves, have them reproduce, and let them live a relatively 'free life,' so long as they don't go out of Thay. Besides, there are still many living survivors in Thay who are not Banites, specially in Eltabbar. Most Banites live in Bezantur, given that its new autharch is a high priest of Bane.
I get what your saying, many of the living would still follow him even if Bane turned on him but due to his pact with Bane most of not all of the religiously minded people in his country are now Banities and this is exactly the segment of the population that can cause serious problems for any ruler. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 20:21:24
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Thats not necessarily true. after all the living portion of his forces are all banites due to his bargain and so perhaps not having Banes backing could seriously weaken his hold on their loyalty.
Not all. And I don't think they matter that much. The necromancers loyal to him are many, and are enough to raise undead armies to repel any attack or to start a campaign outside Thay.
Besides, phranctoast has a point. Szass Tam may have told them something along this line, "You're all servants of Bane, but you are in my kingdom. Hence, you answer to me first and foremost. Otherwise, begone, or I'll kill you and animate your corpses to be part of my undead army."
This is of course a valid enough scenario but personally i believe that no matter the power of his necromancy, Tam stills needs a core of living supporters in the long run . This is because firstly the outside world already hates Thay, you need some living faces to show them if you are ever going to conduct any sort of negotiation. Also living spies and agents can enter places where the dead cannot.
Secondly to a long term thinker like him it should be obvious that the best way to replace losses through attrition is to have a steady supply of the living that you can reanimate. He has already exhausted the cemeteries of Thay and acts like the destruction of Neverwinter are only good for a temporary surge in his forces.
Now I am not saying the living component of his kingdom can easily overthrow him but it is also true that he needs them more than he lets on, breaking with Bane would make things needlessly complicated for him.
Oh, I'm not saying he does not need the living. In fact, he needs them almost as badly as he needs the undead. What I'm saying is they need not be Banites. There are many ways to repopulate Thay without involving the Banites. Buy or steal more slaves, have them reproduce, and let them live a relatively 'free life,' so long as they don't go out of Thay. Besides, there are still many living survivors in Thay who are not Banites, specially in Eltabbar. Most Banites live in Bezantur, given that its new autharch is a high priest of Bane. |
| phranctoast |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 20:11:55
Nice. She's easily one of my favorite authors. Rite of Blood is my favorite short story. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 20:03:58
quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
quote:
That is the most difficult part. If not impossible.
Certainly impossible in the time frame. How was it done in War of the Spider Queen? Didn't Gromph look for locations disguised with no magic? He also had the knowledge that in all likely hood it would be located in the Families house.
Either I forgot the details or it's mentioned in a book that I haven't read yet. So far, I've only read Books 5, 1, and 2. Yes, in that order. Hehe.
quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
btw.. Nice reference to Halruaa considering I'm reading it now :)
C&K trilogy is one of Elaine's best, for me. My favorite in the series is the last one, Wizardwar. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 19:54:51
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Thats not necessarily true. after all the living portion of his forces are all banites due to his bargain and so perhaps not having Banes backing could seriously weaken his hold on their loyalty.
Not all. And I don't think they matter that much. The necromancers loyal to him are many, and are enough to raise undead armies to repel any attack or to start a campaign outside Thay.
Besides, phranctoast has a point. Szass Tam may have told them something along this line, "You're all servants of Bane, but you are in my kingdom. Hence, you answer to me first and foremost. Otherwise, begone, or I'll kill you and animate your corpses to be part of my undead army."
This is of course a valid enough scenario but personally i believe that no matter the power of his necromancy, Tam stills needs a core of living supporters in the long run . This is because firstly the outside world already hates Thay, you need some living faces to show them if you are ever going to conduct any sort of negotiation. Also living spies and agents can enter places where the dead cannot.
Secondly to a long term thinker like him it should be obvious that the best way to replace losses through attrition is to have a steady supply of the living that you can reanimate. He has already exhausted the cemeteries of Thay and acts like the destruction of Neverwinter are only good for a temporary surge in his forces.
Now I am not saying the living component of his kingdom can easily overthrow him but it is also true that he needs them more than he lets on, breaking with Bane would make things needlessly complicated for him. |
| phranctoast |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 19:51:06
quote:
That is the most difficult part. If not impossible.
Certainly impossible in the time frame. How was it done in War of the Spider Queen? Didn't Gromph look for locations disguised with no magic? He also had the knowledge that in all likely hood it would be located in the Families house.
btw.. Nice reference to Halruaa considering I'm reading it now :) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 19:37:43
quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
First things first. Know the location of the phylactery. Divination is likely out so finding it from more traditional ways will have to suffice.
That is the most difficult part. If not impossible.
When she turned her back on Szass Tam, Yaphyll, the Zulkir of Divination, whose prowess matches that of King Zalathorm of Halruaa, must have attempted it already, and (apparently) failed. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 19:26:33
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Thats not necessarily true. after all the living portion of his forces are all banites due to his bargain and so perhaps not having Banes backing could seriously weaken his hold on their loyalty.
Not all. And I don't think they matter that much. The necromancers loyal to him are many, and are enough to raise undead armies to repel any attack or to start a campaign outside Thay.
Besides, phranctoast has a point. Szass Tam may have told them something along this line, "You're all servants of Bane, but you are in my kingdom. Hence, you answer to me first and foremost. Otherwise, begone, or I'll kill you and animate your corpses to be part of my undead army." |
| phranctoast |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 19:16:05
In lieu of necrobumping the how to kill a lich in 10 days (pun intended) I have a new suggestion.
First things first. Know the location of the phylactery. Divination is likely out so finding it from more traditional ways will have to suffice. Once the location is obtained the more difficult of the two is over.
The next phase is simply destroying the lich ;).
I'd go with a magic user who's also an adept fighter. Storm or Dove.... Have a piece of spell dead stone from the time of troubles and then physically destroy the lichs body.
This should eliminate all defenses as well as taking out any Golems the Lich may be using for physical attacks.
|
| phranctoast |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 18:57:31
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Thats not necessarily true. after all the living portion of his forces are all banites due to his bargain and so perhaps not having Banes backing could seriously weaken his hold on their loyalty.
Doesn't he more or less have their loyalty through fear? |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 18:43:50
Thats not necessarily true. after all the living portion of his forces are all banites due to his bargain and so perhaps not having Banes backing could seriously weaken his hold on their loyalty. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 17:07:20
Whether Bane would ally with Mystra or not does not concern Szass Tam. At least not yet. He still has almost a millennium before Bane can collect his part of the bargain. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 16:23:24
Oddly, I think a 'returned Mystra' may ally with Bane. They were only enemies through circumstances, and since her ascendance (and his death) they really need not butt-heads. There is the 'tyranny' thing that Mystra 1.0 abhorred, but only in regards to be tyrannical about withholding magic. Something, strangely, she herself is guilty of (after all, she billed herself as the "end-all, be-all of magic", which we now know was patently FALSE).
And considering both of them would really like to get rid of Cyric, its not that far-fetched. Mystra wants to become the 'tyrant of magic' again, and I really doubt Bane wants to become one of Shar's lap-dogs (which is where the world is heading without Mystra). You know the addage - "the enemy of my enemy..."
It would certainly make for an interesting plot-twist.
Also, it seems Bane is making overtures to replace Gruumsh (he seems to have some orcish blood in him), and I can see Mystra being onboard with that (she is friendly with the Seldarine, and they hate the Orc gods). Things could get quite interesting. Imagine the Simbul and Szass Tam on the same side - stranger things have happened.
On the other hand, I hope all of this resolves itself BEFORE 5e - I don't want another edition mired in 'godwars'.  |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 16:22:39
My take on this is that Szass Tam did a cost/benefit analysis in his head regarding conquering Aglarond and decided not to go for it. The Simbul was *apparently* gone (could be a trick), but she left an array of apprentices, magical traps, and unknown dangers lurking. Tam killed a lot of his own potential army, so his resources were depleted, and the Simbul could just be waiting to trap him when he attempts to attack. And even if the Simbul herself wasn't there, who knows what Tam might be facing? Better the enemy you know than the one you don't.
We the audience can speculate that Tam would be up to the task, but he wouldn't necessarily have the same information we do. And even if he wins, it could deplete him and let one of his rivals defeat him in the aftermath. I saw that as the reason he would repeatedly send Thayan armies into Aglarond, rather than go himself--constantly testing the Simbul's defenses, seeking to wear her down without risking damaging or weakening himself.
Ultimately, it's a big risk to take for not that much gain.
Anyway, that's how I look at it.
Cheers |
| phranctoast |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 14:19:42
quote:
Because he needs a new place to build his Dread Rings. The failure of the Ritual of Unmaking rendered Thay unfit for another set of Dread Rings.
Ahhhhh.. I thought you meant immediately following the spellplague, and not after the failure of the unmaking.
quote:
Still I wonder how the prime version of Simbul would match up versus the current Bane touched version of Szass Tam.
I'd be giddy to see the outcome of a Mystra touched Simbul from Elminster in Hell vs a Bane touched Szass Tam from Undead. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 00:13:17
Szass Tam didn't foresee the Spellplague. Yaphyll did. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Jul 2012 : 23:40:32
On the one hand, I think it might be more in-line with past canon to say he avoided doing his ritual (or taking-over) either of those places because of the nature deities (and obvious nature/life energies permeating the region). However, Thay always had trouble with Rashemen, so we really only need wonder about (post-Simbul) Aglarond.
So, on the other hand, I think destroying an area of nature/life energy would be the most powerful way to get a HUGE necrotic boost (similar to what happens when defilers on Athas 'do their thang'). This means Rashemen should still be a prime target (and probably is), but there has to be some other reason he didn't go balls-to-the-wall belligerent on Aglarond when the Simbul disappeared.
I would say 'something' (the power of the first Simbul?) is still protecting Aglarond, but that doesn't make much sense (because defeating such a power and turning its energies necrotic would be a major coupe). It only makes sense that the 'best' place to perform death-related rituals would be in places where there is much life (otherwise, whats the point?) I never read the series, so I'm not even sure what type of energy (it could have been Fiendish) Szass Tam was trying to obtain.
So here's my thinking - he never really liked Aglarond and Rashemen, but he did have hopes of eventually using those territories for his 'master plan' (which may have been something else originally, but evolved into the Dread-ring thing). Besides that, being at war with both constantly kept his Zulkirs busy and off his back (and allowed him to see their strengths, and how good they were at fighting and manipulation). So basically, although he did have some eventual goals in mind, most of that was just a great game he was playing while he laid his real plans.
Unfortunately, for whatever reason (like I said, I didn't read the series, nor intend to) he couldn't wait anymore for those lands. Perhaps he 'forsaw' the Spellplague and had to rush things (I believe there was something about that). Ergo, instead of using his enemies lands like he eventually hoped to do, he was forced to use his own kingdom to fuel his ritual (which of course, killed all his own people, which didn't really leave him much of a kingdom - hence why I say it seemed like a desperate tactic).
Now in the aftermath of all that, the ritual didn't work, he's got a dead country, and he doesn't bother to go after his ex-enemies... which I find immensely peculiar. Aglarond is ripe for the picking, and he goes off and starts messing-around in The North - Larloch's stomping-grounds? That doesn't make much sense at all.
Unless there is something beneath Aglarond he is wary of. Otherwise he need not go so far afield. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Jul 2012 : 21:04:03
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Be aware that 'The Simbul' is named after something.
A dead goddess.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If the dread Rings are powered by necrotic magics, then any sort of life-magic (node?) may conflict with it.
Before the civil war, the largest portion of Thay's land was lush and verdant---teeming with life-magic. Vast amount of necromantic magics transformed it to its blighted state now. Same thing could happen to Aglarond and Rashemen if Szass Tam manages to penetrate them.
quote:
Maybe Szass Tam never gave a crap about either of those places.
There are hints in RLB's The Masked Witches which indicate that he might be interested in Rashemen, or at the very least, in stopping the Eminence of Aurant from taking over. |
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